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DocLightning
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Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:58 am

So, Mr. Obama won the electoral vote. At present, he's 1.5% ahead in the popular vote and gaining rapidly as the last of the nation's "red" precincts report, but the more crowded (and hence slower) "blue" precincts are delayed.

And then Donald Trump shot off his mouth on Twitter calling the election a "total sham and travesty" and calling for "revolution."

He's not the only one. Michele Bachmann used the words "armed and dangerous" when discussing energy policy. But one might argue that he words were misconstrued. Not so much for Sharon Angle, who said that the American people could bring down an out-of-control congress with "Second Amendment remedies." The Virginia Republican Committee called for “armed revolution should we fail with the power of the vote in November" in their newsletter this summer.

The Right Wing has been creating an alternate reality all its own. In this alternate reality, Mr. Obama is a foreign-born Muslim (as many as 1/3 of registered Republicans believe so) and he is going to take away all your guns on November 7 (and "Fast and Furious" was a conspiracy to make the move popular), Democrats are committing wide-spread voter fraud, and most importantly of all, the polls show a landslide Romney victory. Unskewedpolls still hasn't conceded Mr. Obama's victory. In fact, they haven't mentioned the actual election at all.

It's not just fringe wing-nuts who are spouting this stuff. Major media figures like Mr. Limbaugh and Mr. Beck are stoking the fires. Elected GOP officials (including presidential candidate, Mrs. Bachmann) have warned that the Obama administration is infiltrated by Islamic extremists, perhaps even with Mr. Obama's approval.

So this morning (7 Nov) when some of these people wake up and find that Mr. Obama has been declared the winner what do you suppose they will believe? That the election was legitimate and that all the information they'd been fed was a big lie? Of course not. They'll believe that the election was rigged. And some are going to talk about revolution while others, I'm quite afraid, are going to have a crack at it.

In the last 30 years, pretty much all domestic terrorism has been right-wing. I'm talking about terrorism, not rioting. Rioting is disorganized and chaotic. Terrorism is carefully planned and usually has a specific motivation. There has been a drastic rise in extremist Right-Wing neo-nazi and "Patriot" groups since 2008. I'm very worried about what is going to happen, especially because I live in the "liberal hotbed" of San Francisco.

So my question is: should the Obama administration start playing hardball with these people? Should they call them in for private meetings and remind them that inciting rebellion (sedition) is actually a crime under federal law? Or should they let them mouth off? On the one hand, making martyrs only helps their cause. On the other hand, I wonder how long this talk is going to to go on before OKC or the Atlantic Olympics happen again.

Your thoughts?

[Edited 2012-11-07 01:26:03]
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vikkyvik
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Your thoughts?

People who voted for Obama will believe the same stuff they did yesterday, but will be a little happier.

People who voted for Romney will believe the same stuff they did yesterday, but will be a little more pissed off.

The idea of an armed revolution to combat whatever perceived slights currently come out of DC is utterly ridiculous, and I think most people know that.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 9:30 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 1):
The idea of an armed revolution to combat whatever perceived slights currently come out of DC is utterly ridiculous, and I think most people know that.

Most yes. But as we learned from Mr. McVeigh, it doesn't take many to do a lot of damage and shed a lot of blood.

Please understand that I'm not suggesting that an army of Limbaugh and Hannity fans is going to try to march on Washington with pitchforks and guns (or horses and bayonets, although that would be awesome   ).

My guess is that most will grumble and call it a travesty and continue to believe that Obama is a Muslim Communist Atheist Kenyan. I'm not so worried about them. I'm worried about the ones who are actually crazy enough to try it. We've already seen a few have a crack at it, but fortunately get caught during the planning stages.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:51 am

I think we're past the Muslim Kenya-born Communist stuff now. There are some folks out there who actually believe it, and they will continue saying it, but it was fueled and kept afloat by intelligent people who knew those conspiracies were total rubbish and still kept on promulgating them because they thought they might help in bringing Obama down.

Now that the guy is not going to stand in an election anymore, this slander has run its course. It doesn't pay off anymore. There were people with a vested interest in leveraging those irrational fears, and this interest is now all but gone. In order words, say good-bye to Barack HUSSEIN Obama, the evil incarnation of Hitler - say hello to a much more grounded, yet still tough political debate.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 3):
In order words, say good-bye to Barack HUSSEIN Obama, the evil incarnation of Hitler - say hello to a much more grounded, yet still tough political debate.

There's always a nice and cozy impeachment if you can't get your way any other way... they've tried it before.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:21 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 4):

There's always a nice and cozy impeachment if you can't get your way any other way... they've tried it before.

Well, the left wing still gets a hard-on thinking about George Bush being dragged in front of a court, so...

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
In the last 30 years, pretty much all domestic terrorism has been right-wing. I'm talking about terrorism, not rioting. Rioting is disorganized and chaotic. Terrorism is carefully planned and usually has a specific motivation.

You are wrong. The acts (act?) of domestic terrorism you had were "lone wolf" type crazies, which does not require much preparation. Organizing a left-wing demonstration with the specific intent of trashing downtown Seattle, on the other hand, takes time and effort and involves multiple people.

And the reason you can say mention that is because of good intelligence and sheer luck, you have been able to stop several acts of Islamic terrorism in the process of happening. If that bomb had gone off in Times Square, or the one near the Christmas lights in Portland, those numbers would have changed dramatically.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Well, the left wing still gets a hard-on thinking about George Bush being dragged in front of a court, so...

Who impeached a President over, essentially, marital affairs?
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:28 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 6):
Who impeached a President over, essentially, marital affairs?

You understand the U.S. is not France, where such things are expected of a president, right? How do you think HR and the Board at a major company would react if the CEO got a BJ in his office from an intern? What do you think Gloria Allred would try to do to a company if it came out that such a thing had happened and the company did nothing about it? What is good for the goose...
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:51 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
You understand the U.S. is not France, where such things are expected of a president, right?

There are indeed other people in the world who understand as well as you do that France and the US are not the same. It is, however, interesting that you chose to mention France instead of Italy, whose long-time PM was nothing if not the poster child for exuberant sexual activities... could that be because Berlusconi was a right-wing politician?   

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
How do you think HR and the Board at a major company would react if the CEO got a BJ in his office from an intern?

That would depend on the culture of that company.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
What do you think Gloria Allred would try to do to a company if it came out that such a thing had happened and the company did nothing about it?

I had to google her name, so I can't really say what I'd expect her to do.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:03 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 8):
could that be because Berlusconi was a right-wing politician?

Nah... I used the example of France because, as far as I know, at least 4 out of their last 4 presidents (2 of them actually right wing) cheated on their wifes (Ashley Madison even used that for a commercial recently). Berlusconi is just as much of a pig, but then again so is the guy who would probably be Fench president now if he had managed to keep his pecker in his trousers in a New York hotel room, DSK.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
I used the example of France because, as far as I know, at least 4 out of their last 4 presidents (2 of them actually right wing) cheated on their wifes (Ashley Madison even used that for a commercial recently).

So did JFK... it didn't keep him from resolving the Cuban Missile Crisis in the best possible way.

Since you're deflecting, I'll ask again:

Quoting aloges (Reply 6):
Who impeached a President over, essentially, marital affairs?

Additionally: When did marital infidelity become an impeachable offence?
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 8):
I had to google her name, so I can't really say what I'd expect her to do.

Just like you didn't want to open the door and see Mike Wallace and the '60 Minutes' crew, you don't want to pick up the phone and hear "Gloria Allred on line 3 for you."

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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:17 pm

Quite frankly, I got everything I wanted last night. Obama, marriage equality and marijuana. I hope the Teabaggers on this board are hating life right now. They certainly deserve it.
 
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DELlz8rQ4-o

I agree with what she said in that video, however there are so many hypocritical prudes in the US that honesty about affairs will hurt any candidates.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Most yes. But as we learned from Mr. McVeigh, it doesn't take many to do a lot of damage and shed a lot of blood.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
I'm worried about the ones who are actually crazy enough to try it.

You cannot stop all the lunatics out there. We would end up devoting all our country's resources to that, and still not succeed completely.

And frankly, if someone has the mental capability to carry out such a horrendous attack, then they will probably find a reason for it eventually, no matter who's in the White House.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Well, the left wing still gets a hard-on thinking about George Bush being dragged in front of a court, so...

Obama could have gone after him, couldn't he have? He chose not to.

In fact in the last 100 years only one President has been impeached and that was Bill Clinton who essentially got impeached because he lied about a question that was wholly irrelevant to the investigation at hand (Watergate).

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
You understand the U.S. is not France, where such things are expected of a president, right?

No, we understand that until Clinton, such affairs were generally politely ignored by both sides as irrelevant to politics.

Since Reagan, we have had two Democratic presidents. Both have had absolutely outrageous allegations thrown at them.

You may bring up Bush as a counter-example, but Bush's political behavior was ghastly. And yet the Democrats did not try to impeach him nor did they try to haul him before a court, although I think that he and his administration should have been tried on multiple criminal charges.

But I'm talking about rhetoric here. I'm talking about the rhetoric where politicians are literally inciting others to violence. And I think that flies outside the bounds of 1st Amendment protected speech and I think it should be dealt with aggressively.

They call Mr. Obama a tyrant; perhaps it's time he started acting the part.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Or should they let them mouth off?

Let them mouth off. By cracking down on the groups, you only further encourage that kind of rhetoric--and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The easiest way to combat falsehood is with the truth.
 
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:48 pm

This is nothing new. The fringe elements in every country tend to suggest extreme methods to get their way after loosing an election. Then the media will do what they are best at and try to give these people traction, in order to milk the election cow dry. For example, here in Canada the fringe movements on the left-wing will cry foul and push for a extremely complex system of electoral reform that would give them an advantage. The French separatists will also get their 15mins, until they start fighting with each other about why nobody likes them.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 17):
This is nothing new.

In this country it is relatively new for elected officials to be making such statements. It's one for it to be on the fringe. The trouble is that it isn't just the "fringe" anymore. Mrs. Bachmann and Mrs. Angle are elected officials. The Virginia GOP is not a fringe group.

This is not some fringe wing-nuts saying this. This is being said by people who sit in the Capitol Building for a living.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:40 pm

I was really hoping this would be more of a Donald Trump thread. I've been keeping up with his rambling tweets since about 11 est. last night and his insanity knows no bounds. I knew the guy wasn't all there, but I didn't think he would be so fear-mongering as to call for revolution and proclaim that the US "is not a democracy".

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Or should they let them mouth off?

Well there's that whole First Amendment thing...

I'm no supporter of having complete free speech (it gets taken a little far down in the States) but seeing as how it has historically been a very important part of your legal system, Obama would get crucified for going after the vocal Right.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 5):
Well, the left wing still gets a hard-on thinking about George Bush being dragged in front of a court, so...

I think it's only the far left that ever says anything about that nowadays. Bush was an idiot but I don't think he should be tried for anything, nor do I believe he ever will.

Quoting aloges (Reply 8):
That would depend on the culture of that company.

I would hope the culture is profitability...in which case the CEO would be canned for getting caught with his pants around his ankles. Shareholders typically don't take too kindly to sexual indiscretions on the job, and if it got out to the press it could influence share price.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 11):
Just like you didn't want to open the door and see Mike Wallace and the '60 Minutes' crew, you don't want to pick up the phone and hear "Gloria Allred on line 3 for you."

I respect that she wants to bring a equality to all groups...but I seriously cannot stand that woman's voice! She's so damn annoying and deflects almost every question that comes at her!

Quoting johnboy (Reply 12):
Teabaggers on this board are hating life right now. They certainly deserve it.

That seems a little unnecessary...

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 14):
And frankly, if someone has the mental capability to carry out such a horrendous attack, then they will probably find a reason for it eventually, no matter who's in the White House.

  

Quoting TheCol (Reply 17):
The French separatists will also get their 15mins, until they start fighting with each other about why nobody likes them.

The separatists have been getting their 15 mins for 30 years. Nothing has changed except the laughable nature of their arguments. I'm an anglophone and I could probably come up with better arguments for half the crap they pull.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:57 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 19):
I'm no supporter of having complete free speech (it gets taken a little far down in the States) but seeing as how it has historically been a very important part of your legal system, Obama would get crucified for going after the vocal Right.

He won't go after the first amendment but if Trump or anyone else decides to try to form a militia to overthrow the White House then the secret service will be paying him or they a visit. Even in the US you cannot threaten the head of state without getting into trouble.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting johnboy (Reply 12):
I hope the Teabaggers on this board are hating life right now. They certainly deserve it.

This rhetoric does nothing to move this country forward. It's the same childish behavior employed by the side you show such disdain for.


I've talked to many friends and family today and listened to a couple pundits. They seem pretty sad, but the consensus I got is that the American people don't hate the President and I actually sensed a change in thinking from a few people. I haven't heard any stupid conspiracy theories (yet) ... maybe they did indeed learn their lesson??

We can only hope. There are many smart people in the GOP, even if they act irrational sometimes, I believe they can bring a lot to the table. It's up to them to actually mature up and make it happen
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:51 pm

Quoting johnboy (Reply 12):


Quite frankly, I got everything I wanted last night. Obama, marriage equality and marijuana.

You left out the complete and total de-bunking of this ridiculous GOP myth that there was ever any hint of it being a "close" race.

It wasn't quite '96 again, but it would have been if Clinton was allowed to run again. The GOP has a lot of soul searching to do if they want Americans to take them seriously in the future.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
got impeached because he lied about a question that was wholly irrelevant to the investigation at hand (Watergate).

Whitewater.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
I'm talking about the rhetoric where politicians are literally inciting others to violence. And I think that flies outside the bounds of 1st Amendment protected speech and I think it should be dealt with aggressively.

They call Mr. Obama a tyrant; perhaps it's time he started acting the part.

If there's anything we learned last night, it's that there would be wholesale support of this. We've had GOP politicians attempting to incite violence against pretty much anyone they don't agree with for the last few years (and then shamefully back-pedaling when something actually does happen, like the cowards they are...)

The GOP will not be able to win a major election again without major platform overhauls anyway, that much is clear. They need to decide now if they want to be part of the solution, or continue on their path and be consigned to the trash heap of political history. At the very least, a strong centrist figure or grouping needs to come out against these incitements, and make it clear that cooperating with the nation's will is the only way forward from here on out.

It's clear that the current and next administration will have America's support in any effort to defend against these fringe elements. The sun is shining, time to make some hay, Obama.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 22):
Whitewater.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! I can't believe I made that mistake.   

For some reason, scandals often involve "water" in the name.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
In this country it is relatively new for elected officials to be making such statements.

Because social media has changed and these people are now able to gain traction from the press. Gone are the days of Walter Cronkite and responsible journalism. In order to compete with the new forms of social media on the internet, the mainstream press has "changed with the times". That results in celebrity status for idiots that wouldn't have otherwise made the headlines, at least in a positive light, back in the day. Trump is a perfect example of that. Before The Apprentice aired, nobody liked him and he had absolutely no credibility in the public eye.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
This is not some fringe wing-nuts saying this. This is being said by people who sit in the Capitol Building for a living.

Up until the last election, the official opposition in Canada was considered a fringe party of socialist wing-nuts that barely held official party status. In order to be taken seriously, they had to change their tune. The Republicans will figure that out too, and will eventually clean house.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:30 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
creating an alternate reality all its own.

Up until a couple months ago I would have taken statements like this as partisan bickering and nothing more.

BUT

Two Republican obsessions this fall seriously called into question for me the reality Republicans were using: the "polls-are-skewed-towards-Democrats" hysteria and the 6 week charade of concern over a previously obscure ambassador by FoxNews. More disturbing than these flimsy and desperate "issues" was the fact that they were so uniformly and unquestionably repeated and adopted with such messianic loyalty by what I had previously seen as thoughtful and probably well educated people. No independent thought, just loyal adoption of the topic du jour.


Pu
 
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:55 am

Quoting pu (Reply 32):
Up until a couple months ago I would have taken statements like this as partisan bickering and nothing more.

Really?

Mr. Obama is a Muslim born in Kenya (or Indonesia)?
Mr. Obama is a socialist?
Mr. Obama is a Muslim extremist?
Mr. Obama is going to hand the US over to the New World Order/UN?
Mr. Obama is coming to get your guns?
Legitimate rape doesn't get you pregnant? Embryology and evolution are lies from Satan?
Mr. Obama didn't go to Harvard/was accepted as a foreign student?
Death panels and rationing?
And remember the gem about 10% of the US Navy being diverted to the Indian Ocean on account of his India trip?

This has been going on for four years. This is not partisan. Reality is not partisan. It seems to have an increasingly liberal bias, yes, but that's only because American "conservatism" has been voluntarily rejecting it.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 29):
Because social media has changed and these people are now able to gain traction from the press.

No. Since the Civil War it was simply not said. You did not talk about open armed revolution against the government as an elected representative. You were the loyal opposition. That was your job. Believe me, that kind of talk would have made headlines back in Mr. Cronkite's day, too.

I agree with you about Mr. Trump, but not Mrs. Bachmann, Mrs. Angle, or the Virginia Republican Committee. They are not simply dumb celebrities with a Twitter feed.

And let's not dismiss Mr. Trump as an idiot. He is an arrogant, egotistical, blowhard, yes. But you don't amass that kind of wealth and power without some smarts.
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RE: Of Revolutions And Militias

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:28 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
But as we learned from Mr. McVeigh, it doesn't take many to do a lot of damage and shed a lot of blood.

McVeigh reacted to a very specific, bloody situation that did not have to happen and should not have happened. It was far more personal than political. That's in stark contrast to the bomb-throwing leftist. Not that it's any better, but it's different.

That said, having riots/revolutions start because of laws that step on people's toes isn't something new. Don't pass such laws.
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