MaverickM11
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Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:07 pm

MD and ME have approved same sex marriage, and MN and WA have turned down bans. Attitudes on social issues are shifting and church attendance is falling. Far right stances on abortion issues have proved disastrous. Whether you agree or not with the Christian right, it's been a long slow decline with no upturn in sight, but it seems that last night was the end, or at least an acceleration into obscurity. Next Presidential election cycle they will have nothing to offer voters unless they change most of their positions. Is the Christian Right done?
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bueb0g
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:19 pm

I think so. And unless the GOP ditches that image of them (or at least, one of their flanks) quickly, they're going to continually lose elections; the US public is just not on their side. Only 20% of Americans support a total ban on abortion, etc.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:28 pm

The Christian Right will still matter in local and congressional elections where they can deliver enough votes to swing who gets into office by effective margins. On the big stage, they've already been marginalized. The Christian Right isn't able to deliver the kind of voting blocks that swung major elections in the Reagan era.

Watch what happens in terms of immigration during the next few years. Catholic Hispanics, a fast-growing demographic, should be attracted to the GOP, as the party's stances on abortion, same-sex marriage, embryonic stem-cell research, euthanasia, and religious freedom is appealing. But if you snub them in the face on the immigration issue, you're going to lose them to the Democrats.
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:48 pm

It's something the GOP just can't give up on.

The bible belt is solid red.

If they give that up, where do they start from?

Here's a map I found, I think it's accurate:



Note that even NC was leaning blue till Obama came out in favor of gay marriage.

If they abandon the bible belt they'll have an even harder road going forward.
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us330
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
If they give that up, where do they start from

To actually being the party of small government, which is what they were before they got in bed with the religious right. There's a firm foundation for the Republicans--concede the culture war, and focus on economics. Be in favor of policies that encourage entrepreneurship, small business ownership and development, and economic innovation. That's how they win/create a new base.
 
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:36 pm

There are still plenty of Republicans who are insane Church-y but just hide it in an effort to appeal to secular Republicans and zealots alike. My fear is that Mitt wasn't religious fundamentalist enough to excite the base in Virginia, Ohio & etc.

Republicans already thought carefully about becoming the open-immigration party. GW Bush already was. They tried it and it didn't (yet) suit the party to favor open immigration. But that is their plan for the future. Flood the country with conservative Christians and use religion (& oil money) to govern the country. Kind of like the Saudi Arabia model, which Bush and others idolize, IMO.
 
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:36 pm

I am a republican voter, but I guess I'd consider myself more libertarian.
I won't say that you're not allowed to be religious, but in reality, I left the church 2 years ago because I saw so much hypocrisy in religion. For me, and especially for social issues, I believe that these issues must be decided by the states themselves, as we saw last night. Church attendance is indeed falling, because the church itself fails to see that it is 2012. Right wingers need to know that We do have to move on somehow if we are going to be a prosperous and rich nation.

In terms of abortion though, I will always be pro-life. I was adopted and my birthmom chose adoption over abortion because she knew I had a better chance at being successful with adoptive parents. If more resources were given to adoption agencies, that would make me happier. Also who gives a damn about gays and raising kids? They're perfectly capable of raising children the same way MY parents did with me. And look at me now, successful student in the process of moving to Japan.
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Ken777
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:47 pm

I live in the Bible Belt and I see no chance that there will be a change here. Look at the various states stuck in this mindset. Oklahoma delivered a 66-33 "victory" to Romney. How far out were the rest of the Bible Belt states.

The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group, just like they cannot afford to upset the conservatives in southern states who are still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

The really queer bit about the Holy Rollers in the "Christian Right" is that they act against what normal people would consider Christian values in areas like "I was hungry" and "I was sick". Do you really believe that these "Christians' are willing to see improvements in feeding the poor or caring for the sick? Like hell they are.

The Christian Right isn't done, especially at the state level. And, like the Tea Party, the GOP will be missing the courage to straighten them out.
 
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:32 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
I won't say that you're not allowed to be religious, but in reality, I left the church 2 years ago because I saw so much hypocrisy in religion.

   It's the reason I don't attend any church/temple/mosque. Although baptised and attended church as a child, I've likely been to the synagogue more than church in my life. particularly with Christian faiths, I see so much hypocrisy.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group, just like they cannot afford to upset the conservatives in southern states who are still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

The really queer bit about the Holy Rollers in the "Christian Right" is that they act against what normal people would consider Christian values in areas like "I was hungry" and "I was sick". Do you really believe that these "Christians' are willing to see improvements in feeding the poor or caring for the sick? Like hell they are.


Again, agree. Also, look at types like Joel Osteen (?) - he's become, so it would seem, fabulously wealthy by being a "Christian". Even a cursory reading of the Bible indicates that if you are a Christian, your world view is that "it's all about them", not "it's all about me".
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mdsh00
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
If they abandon the bible belt they'll have an even harder road going forward.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group, just like they cannot afford to upset the conservatives in southern states who are still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

That may be true but if the GOP keeps going the way they do, they will become the "Party of Angry White Men." Polling shows how much gains the Democrats are making with young voters and minorities (esp Hispanics). The GOP needs to also realize that the country is in the midst of change in values and views. A majority of young voters support progressive causes and many of them may probably remain as Democratic voters as they get older. I think of myself; I've voted in 4 Presidential elections since I was 18 and I've voted for the Democrat (president).

For many people who aren't white, the GOP in recent years have seem to become more and more hostile largely in their move to go even more rightward, and it scares them.

What the GOP needs to do is get the tea party types to bug off and pander less to the Bible Belt. Granted I live in a Blue State but really they will be less and less important as that base ages and goes away.

just my 2 cents...
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:57 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):

In terms of abortion though, I will always be pro-life. I was adopted and my birthmom chose adoption over abortion because she knew I had a better chance at being successful with adoptive parents. If more resources were given to adoption agencies, that would make me happier. Also who gives a damn about gays and raising kids? They're perfectly capable of raising children the same way MY parents did with me.

Completely agree. My background is pretty much identical, and it's been kind of a hard issue for me but i've become pragmatically pro-life. The thing that always pisses me off the most is thinking of the millions, probably billions of dollars of political donations from pro-life and pro-choice groups the past 40 years and what an incredible waste it has been. Think of all the young mothers in need who could've been tangibly helped instead of bloated war chests filling our tvs with ridiculous attack ads. And think of it, overturning RvW is probably the greatest realistic victory for them, and that would merely return things to the states. It would ultimately reduce abortions, but not nearly by the amount they'd expect you to believe. State lines would be crossed, or done in a shady manner.

The jurys out. Stare decisis. I only wish people would realize they could actually make a difference now instead of this seemingly eternal political gamesmanship. Not to mention the views of many that adoption to be limited to their idea biblical ideas of 'family'. The world just doesn't work that way. Complete idealism. Conservatives like to talk about how the government shouldn't be relied on to effectively fix problems, well great example!
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Maverick623
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Wed Nov 07, 2012 11:55 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
I live in the Bible Belt and I see no chance that there will be a change here.

Nobody's saying the views will change there, but their impact on national issues is pretty much done.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group,

The problem is the GOP has upset pretty much everyone else. Not too long ago, there was a VERY large group of middle-class people whose values and viewpoints were similar, if not coincided, with the current-day "Christian Right". With the advent of the internet and an increase in communication, urbanization, and social support, that group has increasingly distanced themselves from those values.

The GOP in this election cycle chose to keep appealing to the Christian Right, in hopes that they could do what they've always done and bully and pressure people into not "destroying the fabric of this country". It didn't work out so well, and now with the Christian Right having thrown their hands up and said that over half this country is stupid an this is no longer the America it used to be, the rest of us will continue on while they slowly die out.
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
Again, agree. Also, look at types like Joel Osteen (?) - he's become, so it would seem, fabulously wealthy by being a "Christian". Even a cursory reading of the Bible indicates that if you are a Christian, your world view is that "it's all about them", not "it's all about me".

There are two different viewpoints of Christianity. The one that the Religious Right tends to take is that if you accept Jesus Christ as your savior, you are absolved of all your sins and you will go to heaven. You can be a murderer or an adulterer but if you accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior, you will go to heaven. The only exception, I suppose, is homosexuality. That apparently bars you from heaven unless you become "ex-gay" or whatever you want to call it.

From Wikipedia's article on Ann Coulter:

Quote:
Coulter says that she holds Christian beliefs, but has not declared her membership in any particular denomination – she has mentioned that her father was Catholic while her mother was not. At one public lecture she said, "I don't care about anything else; Christ died for my sins, and nothing else matters." She summarized her view of Christianity in a 2004 column, saying, "Jesus' distinctive message was: People are sinful and need to be redeemed, and this is your lucky day, because I'm here to redeem you even though you don't deserve it, and I have to get the crap kicked out of me to do it." She then mocked "the message of Jesus ... according to liberals," summarizing it as "...something along the lines of 'be nice to people,'" which, in turn, she said "is, in fact, one of the incidental tenets of Christianity."

I find this to be a ghastly theology that frankly borders on sociopathy. The idea that you are superior to others solely because of your religious beliefs and that your behavior towards others is incidental at best. A sense of inherent superiority is what binds just about every despot tyrant together.

As the Religious Right has been faced with a world that is more and more diverse, in which other forms of faith expression have become more and more important, they have reacted as religious fundamentalists tend to do: by becoming more extreme, more condemnatory of others, and more insular. It is ultimately not an issue of religion, but of psychology.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group, just like they cannot afford to upset the conservatives in southern states who are still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

And this winds up being an increasingly large problem for them because they can't afford to keep pandering to this group, either. A younger generation is being brought up and they are increasingly ecumenical or religiously unaffiliated. The U.S. population is also becoming increasingly urban and suburban, meaning that today's young people are being raised in an environment of diversity. In twenty years' time, a good portion of their White Evangelical base will be dead. A younger generation will be less interested in (and indeed turned off by) staunch opposition to gay rights, contraception, and abortion and more interested in actual fiscal and political policy.

If the GOP turns its back on this older demographic, they will lose some votes from them, yes... but it's not as if the DNC will gain those votes. The GOP needs to go back to what they were in the 1970's and 1980's, a party focused on fiscal responsibility (which they weren't during the '80's, admittedly), reduced government regulation on businesses, and reduced government interference in private behavior. It wasn't until 1989 that the Christian Coalition inserted itself firmly into GOP policy.

But if they continue on the current course, they will become increasingly irrelevant on a national level and if that is the case, they will become increasingly irrelevant on a state level as a result. If they take a new direction and abandon the RR, they will suffer in the short term, yes, but they will prosper in the long-term.
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Pyrex
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
In terms of abortion though, I will always be pro-life. I was adopted and my birthmom chose adoption over abortion because she knew I had a better chance at being successful with adoptive parents

That is the problem with liberals - they always consider themselves at the fore-front of every issue, whether they are or not, to the point they like to think of themselves as progressives (which is ironic, because if they lived on the early 20th century they would be protesting Henry Ford for threatening the livelihood of all those organic, local, free-range buggy-whip manufacturing small business co-ops). The situation has become so ridiculous they consider "progress" when women are able to indiscriminately kill unborn babies just so they don't have to live with the consequences of their own decisions (a liberal dogma).

Oh, and before the attacks start - I am far from being religious. In fact, I am a true atheist - as in, I know for a fact all religions are wrong and treat all religious demonstrations accordingly - , not the garden-variety liberal atheist, as in, an oikophobe that will go out of their own way to justify any religious behavior no matter how barbaric it is just as long as it is not perpetrated by a Christian (or, as the incredibly bigoted attacks over the past months show, a Mormon).

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
Oklahoma delivered a 66-33 "victory" to Romney

How many states delivered similar margins to Obama?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The really queer bit about the Holy Rollers in the "Christian Right" is that they act against what normal people would consider Christian values in areas like "I was hungry" and "I was sick". Do you really believe that these "Christians' are willing to see improvements in feeding the poor or caring for the sick? Like hell they are.

Since the dawn of civilization the world has been split between people who derive their power from violence and the people who derive their power from the free exchange of goods and services, it is just that over time the roles have evolved. On the camp of the people who derive their power from physical violence, the transition from monarchy/tyranny to the current environment was actually very seamless - the same kind of people are now attracted to roles in politics and government. However, with regards to moral violence, the role of the intellectual justifier for the use of physical violence has largely moved from the clergy to academia. That left the church a bit at odds about what to do, so they are trying to catch up.

In other words, I don't take lessons on what to do with my money or how moral my way of making it is from someone who makes a living out of telling fairy tale stories to gullible people. Same reason I don't ask the Tarot lady in my street for career advice, really.

Quoting mdsh00 (Reply 9):
Polling shows how much gains the Democrats are making with young voters and minorities (esp Hispanics).

Young (i.e., naive) voters have always voted for Democrats, and the minority plantation has always been effective at keeping people poor so they can believe voting Democrat improves their chances in life. And at some point Asians, who still lean Democrat, are going to realize they represent exactly everything the Democratic party has sought to vilify (strong family values, success and social mobility through hard work and entrepreneurship) and see how much they are being targeted by Democratic policies (e.g., making it harder for their kids to get a proper higher education) and come to their senses.

Quoting mdsh00 (Reply 9):
A majority of young voters support progressive causes and many of them may probably remain as Democratic voters as they get older.

Like they say, "if you are not left-wing by the time you are 20, you have no heart, if you are not right-wing by the time you are 40 you have no brain". Luckily I have always valued my brain above everything else (that is how I managed to avoid other stupid things people do when they are young, like starting to smoke or driving drunk).

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 10):
Think of all the young mothers in need who could've been tangibly helped instead of bloated war chests filling our tvs with ridiculous attack ads.

Think of all the mothers in need that could be helped with all the money that goes to the abortion mills at Planned Parenthood.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:44 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 5):
My fear is that Mitt wasn't religious fundamentalist enough to excite the base in Virginia, Ohio & etc.

I don't think there are enough people to excite in those states any more, and certainly not without upsetting the rest.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):

The problem for the GOP is that they can't afford to upset this group,

I don't think they can afford to play to this group either, as we saw in this election. Next election this group is going to be smaller, older, 'deader' and even less relevant.
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
It's something the GOP just can't give up on.

Agreed.
.
That big red ocean from the Carolinas to Kansas is probably the most reliable and largest single voting block ... the foundation of Nixon's Southern Strategy which isn't going to change their worldview just because of a lost election, (not their first btw)....and the GOP isn't going to stop pandering to them without major withdrawal symptoms.

Quoting us330 (Reply 4):
party of small government, which is what they were before they got in bed with the religious right.

A lot of these youngsters now mistakenly believe that the likes of Reagan and Nixon mentioned God every 5 minutes or made abortion a national issue like Bush and Rove did, but they didn't, and won peerless landslides in large part because they were fiscal conservatives (and aggressive cold warriors) who kept religion a more quiet matter.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
still mad about the Civil Rights Law that LBJ signed.

LBJ gave up the south, and except for Watergate there wouldn't have been another Dem president until Clnton 25 years later.

....Thats why the Republicans will not get too far away from the Southern values IMO. It is still the case that if you win this big red ocean plus maybe 1 or 2 other states, you can win...which doesn't sound THAT hard!

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
The really queer bit about the Holy Rollers in the "Christian Right" is that they act against what normal people would consider Christian values in areas like "I was hungry" and "I was sick". Do you really believe that these "Christians' are willing to see improvements in feeding the poor or caring for the sick? Like hell they are.

This is a huge area where Republicans aeen't nearly the natural choice for Hispanics they believe they are: Catholics are very much more into helping the poor (as official policy-not as private initiatives)....and that tired old abortion issue is not materially more attractive to Catholics than anyone else, despite church policy.

Pu
 
WestJet747
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:00 am

The "Christian Right" is far from done. If anything, this loss is going to push many even further right. Think of it as sort of a defense mechanism. The group may be smaller, but it won't lose strength, because some will leave, but some will also become more extreme to "preserve their values and ideals".

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
The situation has become so ridiculous they consider "progress" when women are able to indiscriminately kill unborn babies just so they don't have to live with the consequences of their own decisions (a liberal dogma).

If this isn't an oversimplification then I don't know what is.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
liberal atheist, as in, an oikophobe that will go out of their own way to justify any religious behavior no matter how barbaric it is just as long as it is not perpetrated by a Christian

Liberals might do it more often, but being an apologist has nothing to do with political affiliation. You'll find them in every party in some form or another.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
And at some point Asians, who still lean Democrat, are going to realize they represent exactly everything the Democratic party has sought to vilify (strong family values

"Strong family values" in the Asian sense and "strong family values" in the right wing sense are not at all the same thing. I'm not sure how you even came to that conclusion.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
I'd consider myself more libertarian
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 6):
I will always be pro-life

I can certainly appreciate your reasoning for being pro-life...but does that not conflict with your libertarianism?
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PHX787
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:06 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 10):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):

Both of you, despite me disagreeing with some of your views, just earned spots on my Respected Users list. You guys show what true listening in politics means.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
I can certainly appreciate your reasoning for being pro-life...but does that not conflict with your libertarianism?

It can, but I don't let it. That's the beauty if Libertarianism; true libertarians discuss, not bash. If i wanted to have a debate with a fellow Libertarian about the issue of Abortion, I know somehow we can come through with a compromise.
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Pyrex
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:12 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 14):

I don't think there are enough people to excite in those states any more, and certainly not without upsetting the rest.

Agree. 7 out of the 10 richest counties in the U.S. are in the Washington D.C. metro area. As long as that well keeps running there is no way Virginia will ever vote Republican again. They are the very definition of takers.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
"Strong family values" in the Asian sense and "strong family values" in the right wing sense are not at all the same thing. I'm not sure how you even came to that conclusion.

How many Asian single mothers living off of government food stamps, or Asian men with multiple baby mommas, do you know?
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:14 am

The demise of the Christian wacko faction has been rumored and predicted for many years. They, along with the tea party idiots will be around catering being kowtowed to by the republicans for years to come.

[Edited 2012-11-07 17:15:33]
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
The situation has become so ridiculous they consider "progress" when women are able to indiscriminately kill unborn babies just so they don't have to live with the consequences of their own decisions (a liberal dogma).

This is the problem with conservatives, they think that making other people believe what they do is imperative.
Abortion has been around for years illegal and legal. Pro-Choice means that is should be the mother's choice to a certain point. It protects those that have been raped, or suffered incest or suffering medical conditions a way to end what they didn't want. Being Pro-life is fine from a personal point of view, but to impose that view on others is just wrong, especially when in many cases, there are reasons for terminating the pregnancy beyond what most can handle.

The real plan to limit abortions should not be to make it illegal. There would be far too many black market abortions. The real solutions are to find ways to help people make the choice of life over abortion.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
Is the Christian Right done?

It is not done. It is dwindling though. When it finally is pushed to the sidelines, and abortion and gay marriage bans are not passed as purity tests for elected offices ,the Christian Right will be done.

Quoting pu (Reply 15):
That big red ocean from the Carolinas to Kansas is probably the most reliable and largest single voting block

But that is the wrong belief. North Carolina is teetering on the edge of being a reliable democratic stronghold Nationally. Within the state itself there are issue with ethics that occurred to destroy the state party. However in the next 10 years, NC will be becoming more purple than red. The congressional voting block of gerrymandering is the reason for the 9-4 split in congressional races. (More votes were cast for Democrats than Republicans). The GOP is loosing touch with North Carolina and probably soon it will be Georgia as well.
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:34 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
How many Asian single mothers living off of government food stamps, or Asian men with multiple
baby mommas, do you know?

My God you really are judgmental. I can't imagine living with the mentality that you appear to. You attempt to lump everyone into some neat little package, and vilify them for having different beliefs. Why such hate?

I'm far from super-religious, but I'm interested in how you know "for a fact" that all religions are wrong.

Open your eyes to the world around you. It doesn't fit all these preconceived notions you think it does.

I'm liberal. My parents (also liberal) worked hard for their money after obtaining graduate degrees, and are currently in the top 3% of wage-earners in the US. They do not mooch off the system. I worked hard and earned two college degrees, and currently have a job that pays more than the median household income in the US at 24. We don't fit into your notion that liberals are lazy.

You can try to paint a picture of large groups of people into whatever you want them to be, but don't mistake your narcissistic elitism for truth. The world isn't black and white, and attitudes like yours create the ever-growing polarity we see in the US and across the planet.

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DocLightning
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:35 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
How many Asian single mothers living off of government food stamps, or Asian men with multiple baby mommas, do you know?

I have a few in my patient panel, but not many.

The issue is not "family values." They don't think of things in such terms. The issue is one of priorities. Growing up Jewish, we understand these priorities well.

After shelter, food, and medical care are taken care of, the next most important priority in the typical Asian household is education. It is exactly the same in a typical Jewish household. That's why both demographics tend to do so well.

You will go to school. You will get good grades. You will graduate high school. You will go to college. You will study something that will get you employed. You will have a plan for a career as young as high school. In our household, these things were never even discussed; they were assumed. It never even occurred to me that not going to college was an option. In my family, college is what you do after high school just like high school is what you do after middle school.

In my work, I work with a lot of families families and what I have noticed is that whether families are socially liberal and permissive or socially strict and repressive is unimportant. The kids will do what the kids will do behind the parents' backs.

However, if the family demands academic excellence and uses that as the primary metric for success, the kids tend to stay out of drugs, don't become teenage parents, and stay out of trouble with the law. That is because these behaviors are incompatible with academic excellence. The kids are taught from a very young age to delay gratification and that, not Bible-thumping or "Family Values," keeps them out of trouble.

I will also point that in many religious extremist families, whether it is Christianity, Islam, or Judaism, liberal education is actually shunned because it might expose the children to facts and views contrary to doctrine. Can't have them learning evolution or cosmology or history that might contradict the Bible (or whichever book). These children often do very poorly as adults, especially as many of them rebel against their parents' religious beliefs.

[Edited 2012-11-07 17:43:16]
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
PPVRA
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):

It's something the GOP just can't give up on.

The bible belt is solid red.

If they give that up, where do they start from?

From here:

Quote:
Mark my word, if and when these preachers get control of the [Republican] party, and they're sure trying to do so, it's going to be a terrible damn problem. Frankly, these people frighten me. Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.
.....
The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom.... I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are?... I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism."

- Barry Goldwater, (1909–1998), five-term US Senator, Republican Party nominee for President in 1964*, Maj. Gen., US Air Force Reserves, author of The Conscience of a Conservative.

http://www.religiousrightwatch.com/2007/12/the-berry-goldw.html
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:47 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
7 out of the 10 richest counties in the U.S. are in the Washington D.C. metro area.

This is just patently false.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/obama-...ins-8-10-wealthiest-154837437.html

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
As long as that well keeps running there is no way Virginia will ever vote Republican again.

Virginia's governor is a Republican who lobbied aggressively against cuts in government spending.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
They are the very definition of takers.

However, most of the government spending in Virginia is defense related and those folks lean Republican.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
Think of all the mothers in need that could be helped with all the money that goes to the abortion mills at Planned Parenthood.

The vast majority of Planned Parenthood funding does not go to abortions.

I don't think the Christian Right is dead, however their influence will fade to being a minor player....much how the Catholic Church's influence has faded.
 
Pyrex
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:59 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
t protects those that have been rape
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
indiscriminately kill unborn babies just so they don't have to live with the consequences of their own decisions

And how exactly is getting raped a consequence of someone's own decisions?

Oh, and what percentage of abortions happen due to rape?

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 21):

I'm far from super-religious, but I'm interested in how you know "for a fact" that all religions are wrong.

Easy. I have this thing in between my ears called a "brain", and when I use it reaches that conclusion. I am willing to re-consider, though - if God exists, he can send me a PM (Instagram is fine as well).

Despite the fact that Descartes was one of the intellectual founders of rationalism, just because he tried (unsuccessfully) to prove the existence of God doesn't mean it can be done. You would be amazed how much more clearly you start seeing things once you embrace rationalism. Allows you to see straight past intentions and into outcomes, for one

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):

I have a few in my patient panel, but not many.

And San Francisco has a lot of Asian people...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
In my family, college is what you do after high school just like high school is what you do after middle school.

And when in college you are probably more incentivized to study hard, preferably something specific and useful instead of "General Studies", and not spend 4 years of your life perfecting your beer pong technique, no?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
The kids are taught from a very young age to delay gratification and that, not Bible-thumping or "Family Values," keeps them out of trouble.

Whatever keeps them out of trouble, those three things, to different extents, are much more a stable of a right-wing platform than a left-wing one... don't recall when was the last time I saw a Democratic politician campaigning on a platform of delayed gratification.
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Newark727
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
Young (i.e., naive) voters have always voted for Democrats

This stuck out amid all the mischaracterizations and broad-based attacks on "liberals" because I just looked at your profile, which says that you are a student in the 26-35 age range. You're not exactly a graybeard either and it's my observation that hard-nosed atheist libertarianism tends to flourish most strongly among young (i.e., naive, to use your words) people as well.
 
Newark727
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:13 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
Whatever keeps them out of trouble, those three things, to different extents, are much more a stable of a right-wing platform than a left-wing one... don't recall when was the last time I saw a Democratic politician campaigning on a platform of delayed gratification.

Don't remember ever seeing too many Republicans do that either, to be quite honest. Tax cuts are nothing if not a promise of gratification now rather than later. Listen you can go religion-denying all you want but you're endorsing all the hot-button items in the religious right's agenda, most of which have been repudiated by most of the country. In the case of Planned Parenthood, you're lifting their talking points verbatim in order to make a case that the money would be better spent on other aspects of women's health car (as though that isn't 90% of Planned Parenthood's business.) You can make noise about how various non-white, younger, or non-Christian demographics will eventually break for the GOP as it stands, and you might even be right, but the current fact is that they've made what votes they've gotten on the strength of policies that would provide the most material benefit to white people and old people.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:43 am

The Christian right have had their cycles of ups and down since the USA was born. Sometimes they have gone to extremes, like with alcohol and drug prohibitions early in the 20th Century with bad results. Currently, they are in a down cycle due to changes from more people being more educated, more experiences with those of other faiths and the limits of fatith. People are far more concerned with jobs, income, debts and so on, many realize that religion is not the only answer for our problems.
 
kaitak
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:47 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
I don't think the Christian Right is dead, however their influence will fade to being a minor player....much how the Catholic Church's influence has faded.

I was actually thinking about that the other day; my father, who is quite conservative, is a member of some Catholic online forums; he would be an Obama supporter (he lives in Ireland), but he is often amazed at the strength of feeling - indeed the ferocity - of American Catholic intellectuals against Obama. Traditionally in America, the Catholic Church has been more strongly allied to the Democrats, because most people of Irish (and obviously immigrants of other nationalities) descent were poor immigrants; it was, as it should always be, an organisation to help the downtrodden and afflicted.

But seriously ... at some point, perhaps as Catholics became richer and were no longer subject to discrimination, the Church shook off that mantle and began to focus much more on "moral" issues. I'm sure that in many parts of the US, the Church continues to do good work among the poor, but its focus now seems much more to be on moral issues particularly abortion and homosexuality, and I think its standing has suffered because of that - not helped, of course, by the various abuse scandals, which have always totally undermined its moral authority. Certainly, that message has not been learned by Rome and it seems to me that the Church's pronouncements on moral issues FAR outweigh its pronouncements on social justice. I don't expect any change on this as long as the current Pope is alive, but even in the longer term, with the college of Cardinals mostly appointed by Benedict, you're hardly going to get a liberal next either.

I guess my point is that if the Church has stuck to the social issues - the poor, the tired and huddled masses etc - they wouldn't be in the fix they are now; in the current economic environment, there is certainly a much greater need for this than for pontificating on moral issues; their respect (and perhaps confidence) would grow and they would probably reverse their decline.

As for the rest of the "Christian" right, I think that demographics will ultimately work against them; I don't think you'll see a steep decline, but certainly their inflexible stances on social issues, and their "whiteness" will alienate them. I'm all for that; I'm certainly not an atheist, but I do have a strong belief in the separation of Church and State, and in particular, politics and religion.

What it means for the Republican party is far more of a concern (to them!); they've basically associated themselves with a demographic which is not only declining, but has also been perceived (and is actually, in many cases) hostile to many others. That's a bit of a problem. My heart bleeds.
 
Maverick623
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting kaitak (Reply 29):


But seriously ... at some point, perhaps as Catholics became richer and were no longer subject to discrimination, the Church shook off that mantle and began to focus much more on "moral" issues.

While the Holy See and the Pope have taken that stance, I can assure you the individual community churches in the US are still VERY community oriented and assistive of those in need over "moral" issues, while at the Diocese level and above, they're still trying to mop up the pedophile priest mess.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
And when in college you are probably more incentivized to study hard, preferably something specific and useful instead of "General Studies", and not spend 4 years of your life perfecting your beer pong technique, no?

Yes, because I internalized that.

Also because I decided at a young age that most of the liberal arts were a bunch of fluff that had no practical use while science and technology actually got things done. I was told that I'd change on that viewpoint as I "matured."

Well, I'm 35 and I guess I'm "immature." I still feel that few if any of the liberal arts classes I took were of any use to me in any aspect of my life other than cocktail conversation. To this day, I regret all the literature and art history classes I was forced to take; I could have taken stuff that was interesting, like anthropology and meteorology. All stuff I didn't have time for because of liberal arts requirements in college.

My scientific education drives me in my work and in my life, on the other hand.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
Whatever keeps them out of trouble, those three things, to different extents, are much more a stable of a right-wing platform than a left-wing one...

I disagree, but nothing I say will convince you that I'm right, so we'll move on.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:04 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 30):

Yeah I think the same... I see helping the poor and stuff the most but most of the news faces on the more minor things so many think that's what Catholics make a big deal about...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Pyrex
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:14 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):

This is just patently false.

Except it isn't. By none other than that libertarian rag, the Washington Post.

http://www.wjla.com/pictures/2012/09...-loudoun-county-va-25978-1804.html

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
Virginia's governor is a Republican who lobbied aggressively against cuts in government spending.

Virginia's governor can say whatever he wants, but he has no power to alter Federal spending. Virginia will never elect a Republican President, who does not have the need to appease a specific state.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 24):
However, most of the government spending in Virginia is defense related and those folks lean Republican.

In southern Virginia maybe, in and around D.C. it is mostly the peddlers of pull.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 26):
a student in the 26-35 age range. You're not exactly a graybeard either
Quoting Newark727 (Reply 26):
tends to flourish most strongly among young (i.e., naive, to use your words) people as well.

No longer a student. Perhaps not high in age, but am certainly mature beyond my years. Being young is not necessarily a sign of naivete, but it certainly helps. Being old is not necessarily a sign of maturity either - just take a stroll through downtown Berkeley.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 27):
Don't remember ever seeing too many Republicans do that either, to be quite honest.

Campaigning on a balanced budget is the very definition of delayed gratification. You might disagree on what the best way to balance the budget there is, but most Republicans at least pretend to care about the deficit. Many Democrats seem to think you can keep running trillion-dollar plus deficits ad-eternum.
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zippyjet
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:32 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):

They may have lost the battle but they are far from losing any war. One of the sad aspects of religious fanaticism whatever the faith, is that the extrmes use a street gang thug mentality. If you don't go my way, it's the highway to hell or whatvever nastyland exists in their eyes.

Things go in cycles and history repeats itself. Back in the long Reagan 80's anything Democrat or liberal was akin to being a died in the wool commie and anti American.
Well, the pendulam has swung the other way.

I have utmost confidence the religious right much like their similar but hated Taliban will get their media machine in order and crank out the fire and brimstone message. Also they will have more control and reign over their bretheran who like to dabble in things like diddeling kiddies and other hypocratic behaviors that buck their religious ideals.
I say, let them practice their faith, views as long as it doesn't hurt others such as kids of the same sex and if they leave the rest of us the hell alone.

Tell you what, I'll let them have Louisiana and Utah to have their fun just leave us the F alone!
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doug_or
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:57 am

The Latino community is generally pretty religious and socially conservative, is it not? Could a new guard of younger (and lets be honest here, browner) Republican leaders turn the hispanic vote? The talk now is about how increasingly strong democratic allegiance among the growing latino population is turning the southwest more blue, but if the conservatives can turn this around we might find California in play. Or maybe I'm way off. Thoughts?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 33):
Perhaps not high in age, but am certainly mature beyond my years.

Just so you know, thats not something you say if you expect to be taken seriously. It is something others say about you if you've proven it to be true.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
doug_or
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 34):
Tell you what, I'll let them have Louisiana and Utah to have their fun just leave us the F alone!

Whatwhatwhat?! For the love of god, give them Mississippi! We're keeping New Orleans!
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Pyrex
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:08 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
I could have taken stuff that was interesting, like anthropology

Seriously, anthropology didn't count as a liberal arts requirement? It is hardly a hard science...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
All stuff I didn't have time for because of liberal arts requirements in college.

Or, crazy thought, you could have gone into medical school straight out of high school, studied for 6 years only things that were actually relevant for medical purposes and graduate sooner and with less debt, thereby reducing the barriers to entry to the medical profession and bringing down healthcare costs. Many countries seem to do things this way and don't think the quality of medical education or practice is any worse, provided you have a proper admissions process out of high school.

BTW, I know you specifically probably couldn't as you wouldn't have had the choice, but somehow in the middle of all the discussions about bringing down healthcare costs in the U.S. I missed the discussion on this very simple solution. Not sure how the AMA would think about making access to the medical profession easier, though...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 31):
I disagree, but nothing I say will convince you that I'm right, so we'll move on.

At the very least, the success of the Asian community in the U.S. is a continued reminder of the failure of the left's social policies and that of the Great Society. The fact that a marginalized community in the 60s and 70s, many of them illegal immigrants who in many cases could barely speak English, without any specific programs, policies or handouts designed to help them managed to become one of the most prosperous in the U.S. has to get on some people's nerves. That is why some Democrat politicians such as Marion "Asians ought to go" Barry resent them.
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Pyrex
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:18 am

Quoting doug_Or (Reply 35):
Just so you know, thats not something you say if you expect to be taken seriously. It is something others say about you if you've proven it to be true.

I guess - would never call that to myself but it's basically been written on every performance review I have had over the past few years... obviously not going to post that here.
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Mir
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:29 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 18):
7 out of the 10 richest counties in the U.S. are in the Washington D.C. metro area. As long as that well keeps running there is no way Virginia will ever vote Republican again. They are the very definition of takers.

Are you suggesting that people who live in rich counties are "takers"?

-Mir
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Pyrex
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:47 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
Are you suggesting that people who live in rich counties are "takers"?

In the counties in and around D.C. yes. Unless you are seriously suggesting that government spending (broadly - politicians, staffers, bureaucrats, lobbyists, etc.) is not by far and away the chief driver of income in those counties.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:43 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
Or, crazy thought, you could have gone into medical school straight out of high school, studied for 6 years only things that were actually relevant for medical purposes and graduate sooner and with less debt, thereby reducing the barriers to entry to the medical profession and bringing down healthcare costs.

The extra two years were worth it. There is value to having an education in something other than medicine. For me, I have an M.S. in molecular biology. I like our system that gives you more mature physicians and makes sure they are really sure they want it at 22-23, not at 17-18.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 37):
The fact that a marginalized community in the 60s and 70s, many of them illegal immigrants who in many cases could barely speak English, without any specific programs, policies or handouts designed to help them managed to become one of the most prosperous in the U.S. has to get on some people's nerves.

It can be explained by selection bias. Same as Jews. Same as Indians. We are comprised of the driven and ambitious immigrants who came here from abroad. That culture of hard work and valuing education came with us. It is neither liberal nor is it conservative. Most Jews are political liberals and the same is true of most Asians and Indians. There are also conservatives.

You should stop labeling everything good in the world as Conservative and everything bad as Liberal. That's one reason your side lost. Hard work is a bipartisan concept. Liberals did not just win that election through laziness.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:04 am

Christians are done in the US, as are right-wingers...as a political movement. There is nothing for them anymore. Goodbye.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:20 am

Quoting pellegrine (Reply 42):

Christians are done in the US, as are right-wingers...as a political movement. There is nothing for them anymore. Goodbye.

Not so fast. They are extremists. They aren't going down quietly. Most will die out and leave a less loony generation in their wake, but some are going to raise quite a fuss.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
cws818
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 7:24 am

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
but it's basically been written on every performance review I have had over the past few years

"basically"

i.e., it has not actually been written on your performance reviews - it is just what you interpret (we often hear what we wish to hear)
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
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Revelation
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:38 pm

The GOP does have lots of problems.

Indeed, demographics are not working in their favor.

Also, their view on social issues aren't in favor - note the new openly gay Senator, one more medical marijuana state, two new recreational marijuana states.

The idea of being pro-life in your own is fine, but it gets them right into that old question of rape victims. Why should a rape victim be forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy?

They could try to reorganize around a core of less government and being pro-small business, but I think it's fair to say that's uncharted territory for the GOP. All the GOP administrations in my life have ended up growing government, especially the military. Also a lot of GOP support comes from big business, so I'm not sure how they're going to favor small business.

Also as we've seen it's hard for a political organization to change from within. An outsider has to come along and shake it up, and we have no way of knowing who that could possibly be.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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connies4ever
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
The situation has become so ridiculous they consider "progress" when women are able to indiscriminately kill unborn babies just so they don't have to live with the consequences of their own decisions (a liberal dogma).

Depends on the jurisdiction in which you live. In Canada the Supreme Court has ruled that foetuses are not vested in human rights until fully birthed. Ergo, an abortion is not killing a human being. It's not a baby until born.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
(strong family values,

Pray tell, exactly what are "family values" ? Further, what exactly is a "family" ?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
Like they say, "if you are not left-wing by the time you are 20, you have no heart, if you are not right-wing by the time you are 40 you have no brain".

Not"they", but Winston Churchill. The fact that Britain survived WW2 whilst being led by someone who outdrank Boris Yeltsin amazes me.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
This is the problem with conservatives, they think that making other people believe what they do is imperative.
Abortion has been around for years illegal and legal.

So has prostitution. The fact that these behaviours persist despite both social and legal condemnation tells me that society in the large has to make some type of reasonably accomodation with both. It's a solution that is practical and not driven by ideology or theology.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:31 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
They are extremists. They aren't going down quietly. Most will die out and leave a less loony generation in their wake, but some are going to raise quite a fuss.

I'm not so sure; they have zero leverage. Sure they can make a stink in the primaries to push forth a candidate who will increasingly be unelectable. They're speeding toward militant Islamist territory, which is really a different side of the same animal.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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Revelation
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 3:58 pm

Quoting pu (Reply 15):
Thats why the Republicans will not get too far away from the Southern values IMO. It is still the case that if you win this big red ocean plus maybe 1 or 2 other states, you can win...which doesn't sound THAT hard!

Lots of states with small electoral counts, except for TX. For the GOP to get ahead, they have to find a way to make a big state like CA or NY tip to their side.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
Being Pro-life is fine from a personal point of view, but to impose that view on others is just wrong, especially when in many cases, there are reasons for terminating the pregnancy beyond what most can handle.

The real plan to limit abortions should not be to make it illegal. There would be far too many black market abortions. The real solutions are to find ways to help people make the choice of life over abortion.

Yes, this is what someone who convinced themselves a compromise is necessary would say. However, the hardcore religious feel they don't need to compromise.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
North Carolina is teetering on the edge of being a reliable democratic stronghold Nationally. Within the state itself there are issue with ethics that occurred to destroy the state party. However in the next 10 years, NC will be becoming more purple than red. The congressional voting block of gerrymandering is the reason for the 9-4 split in congressional races. (More votes were cast for Democrats than Republicans). The GOP is loosing touch with North Carolina and probably soon it will be Georgia as well.

I agree. It seemed NC would go blue till Obama's comments supporting gay marriage. In four years, gay marriage will be a non-issue there, IMHO.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 23):
Politics and governing demand compromise. But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and won't compromise. I know, I've tried to deal with them.

Yes, I miss Barry Goldwater. Amongst the other stuff you list, he was an avid ham radio operator.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 13):
Young (i.e., naive) voters have always voted for Democrats

LOL, again you with your damnable absolutes! My first presidential vote was cast at age 18 for Ronald Reagan, as was my second at 22. I wasn't at all liberal til that horror show called the GWB administration wasn't elected.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Is The US Christian Right Done?

Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 48):
In four years, gay marriage will be a non-issue there, IMHO.

   And then what? Spend all their time on abortion? I just don't know what they do to turn around their accelerating decline.
E pur si muove -Galileo

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