PHX787
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:19 am

Saw this on some independent news websites-

We all know the stock market tanked the last few says. But this is one thing I did not expect:

Apparently 45 companies have announced layoffs. Preemptive moves to avoid suffering major losses in an Obama economy.

Sources:
Boeing
http://twitchy.com/2012/11/08/layoff...usinesses-in-announcing-mass-cuts/
http://twitchy.com/2012/11/08/forwar...ness-owners-on-twitter-doing-same/
http://michellemalkin.com/2012/10/31/obamas-layoff-bomb/

You can read about it anywhere, really. Do a google search.

Obamacare will destroy small businesses AND corporations alike. The very organizations needed to hire people to get our economy back on track, they're laying off.

Thoughts?
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AeroWesty
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:26 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Thoughts?

I forget where I read it, but there was some article that claimed that when the individual sections of Obamacare was read to self-identified conservatives, they overwhelmingly supported it. Only when it was identified as such did they turn against it.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
We all know the stock market tanked the last few says.

Buy on the rumor, sell on the news!! Jeez, that's an age-old adage.
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jpetekyxmd80
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:27 am

Why is it that whenver the stock market takes a dive, Obama gets blamed?

Then when it rockets, he gets nothing.

I'm not saying he deserves credit for the success of the stock market, but he certainly doesn't deserve blame for it. One thing can't be disputed: he hasn't hindered the stock market, it has soared during his term.
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kngkyle
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:37 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Obamacare will destroy small businesses AND corporations alike.

You mean that wasn't already happening before Obamacare?

I agree we need to remove the burden of healthcare costs from our employers. But I think we need to do that by passing that burden onto the government, like every other modern democracy manages to do for less money and with better results for the majority of their citizens. Those who have the money to afford better care are still free to buy additional insurance, but basic and emergency care should be a right for every citizen (without costing them their life savings or ripping off the hospital by not paying). This of course would mean a new healthcare tax of sorts, but that would just make up for not having to pay premiums to insurance companies. The net result would ideally be a reduction in costs per person, closer to the levels you see in countries that have single payer systems.

So while Obamacare is far from perfect, it does get some of the necessary steps towards single payer out of the way, like the individual mandate.

[Edited 2012-11-08 20:45:41]
 
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Dreadnought
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:51 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
I forget where I read it, but there was some article that claimed that when the individual sections of Obamacare was read to self-identified conservatives, they overwhelmingly supported it. Only when it was identified as such did they turn against it.

Nobody is saying that the whole thing is rotten. There are some good parts of it. But there are bad parts as well and when taken as a package, I think the bad outweighs the good.

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 3):
I agree we need to remove the burden of healthcare costs from our employers. But I think we need to do that by passing that burden onto the government, like every other modern democracy manages to do for less money and with better results for the majority of their citizens.

The ones where the government pays for everything tend to be far less satisfactory than others, in terms of quality of care, survival rates, wait times etc.

The best system I personally know of is Switzerland's. They have universal coverage, and it's 100% private (insurance-wise). They don't have anything like Medicare or Medicaid. The key is that their universal mandate is geared for catastrophic or big-ticket illnesses, and not the kitchen-sink coverage mandated by Obamacare.
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PHX787
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Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:53 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):
I forget where I read it, but there was some article that claimed that when the individual sections of Obamacare was read to self-identified conservatives, they overwhelmingly supported it. Only when it was identified as such did they turn against it.

I will agree that parts of Obamacare are quite needed, and I'd say about 90% of Americans would support those parts, but most of Obamacare, particularly the tax and mandate, is absolutely feared by small business owners. My cousin's restaurant, for example, may have to severely cut back, because he can't afford to buy everyone insurance, and REALLY cannot afford an excess tax.
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:56 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The key is that their universal mandate is geared for catastrophic or big-ticket illnesses, and not the kitchen-sink coverage mandated by Obamacare.

I honestly wouldn't mind an option where I paid full whack for office visits, then had catastrophic, preventative care and prescriptions at a reasonable co-pay. I'm not even sick and if I paid retail, my Rx bill would over $1,000 per month.
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Dreadnought
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:04 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I honestly wouldn't mind an option where I paid full whack for office visits, then had catastrophic, preventative care and prescriptions at a reasonable co-pay

That's essentially the Swiss system, although you are free to upgrade to more comprehensive coverage if you want. By the way, their system places 100% of the responsibility on the individual. Employers don't have any responsibility for healthcare, although they will often negotiate preferential rates for their employees.

What I find really stupid in the American system (and Obamacare does nothing to change it) is that if I am happy with the coverage from my current insurer - I know them, they know me etc, and I change jobs, I am basically required to change to my new employer's provider.
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BMI727
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:19 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Apparently 45 companies have announced layoffs. Preemptive moves to avoid suffering major losses in an Obama economy.

Sequestration was no secret. It's literally written into the law, so there's nothing in the election that affected it, other than being covered up in the media by election stories and the administration not wanting contractors to send out their notices in the lead up to potential cuts. So this should surprise literally nobody, and there's not a thing Romney could have done about it if he'd won. It's a matter of a poorly written law and the fact that nobody noticed because we were all too wrapped up in the election.

Secondly, you can't blame Obama for Boeing closing facilities in California. They've kind of been on the way out for a while now, mostly due to California being the way that it is. Some of that will be moving to Oklahoma City or other places.
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kngkyle
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Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:20 am

There really is a lot of agreement between Democrats and Republicans on Healthcare issues. Democrats just see the benefits of Obamacare outweighing the costs, and Republicans the opposite. Either way you look at it, it's good that we are having the discussion. I don't think either side believes that Obamacare is perfect or that changes don't need to be made. Republicans have some legitimate concerns about what Obamacare will do to small businesses, but I have faith that if certain provisions cause problems, then changes will be made to solve them. It's not like Obamacare is set in stone and can't be changed. Hell, isn't the reason it's taking so long to implement all of it so that they can discover and solve problems beforehand?

It's a shame the rhetoric gets so heated and slows the progress, but I think we're on the right track.
 
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Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:47 am

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 9):
but I have faith that if certain provisions cause problems, then changes will be made to solve them. It's not like Obamacare is set in stone and can't be changed. Hell, isn't the reason it's taking so long to implement all of it so that they can discover and solve problems beforehand?

The problem I have is though is the mentality that we'll figure out the problems after it is passed. I was raised to not half a** something and that is what these lawmakers did. The bill should have been thoroughly reviewed before passing it. The bill is huge! We need healthcare reform, anybody who is against it because they think the system is fine is insane. But why did we have to rush this bill and not make sure it was perfect before we passed it?
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PHX787
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Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:16 am

***MODS- Due to computer error, I made a typo in the name of the thread. "Taking" should be "Tanking." Please excuse the error.***

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Secondly, you can't blame Obama for Boeing closing facilities in California. They've kind of been on the way out for a while now, mostly due to California being the way that it is. Some of that will be moving to Oklahoma City or other places.

Well I think everyone can agree that Cali is in the dumps, but other states' companies are having major qualms about Obamacare indeed.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
The bill should have been thoroughly reviewed before passing it. The bill is huge! We need healthcare reform, anybody who is against it because they think the system is fine is insane. But why did we have to rush this bill and not make sure it was perfect before we passed it?
Blue

Exactly. It was passed without much review, and once it passed, people began to get really sensative with any sort of debate about it's repealing and replacing.
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Newark727
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:29 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 10):
But why did we have to rush this bill and not make sure it was perfect before we passed it?

Something about the perfect being the enemy of the good. The health care bill gets a lot of flak for lack of cost control in a bipartisan sort of manner and a lot of flak from the left for losing the public option which was one way of potentially accomplishing that (would it have? can't really say right now.) Meanwhile as it was gathering steam it started gaining a ton of unequivocal opposition from the nascent tea party tailored for media coverage and it must have seemed like the longer Congress waited, the worse the result would be- the 2010 elections say that might have been a good call.

I seem to have blocked most of the debate about it from my memory but I think President Obama went up a blind alley in trying to pay for it with a "Cadillac plan" tax as that makes it seem like less of a nation-wide responsibility and also seems a bit counterproductive in its focus as it raises money for providing care by making the care that everyone would realistically want access to cost more. There was an editorial talking about how health care isn't like buying a car. The choice is between treating your condition, or not- no in-between "used car" in that situation. (This is also why I'm suspicious of market-centric counter-proposals, though.)

I think one big problem with our health care system is that employers are involved at all, it seems to have evolved from a particular set of circumstances (widespread and steady employment) that has been becoming more obsolete for a while, and when times get rough it may concentrate risk (you don't want to lose your job and your healthcare at the same time, I don't think it happens as often as it used to but still) and raise labor costs. I'm not completely sure how best to reduce their exposure and transfer it to some other organization without going the full single-payer route though, and while I'm perfectly cool with that, I know a heck of a lot of people aren't and I'm willing to accept that if the alternatives can produce a better system. (Personally, I don't understand the argument that the top-shelf high-dollar clinics wouldn't happen anymore, but the anecdotes about time to receive care seem to be somewhat well supported?)
 
QFA380
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Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 6:44 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 2):
Why is it that whenver the stock market takes a dive, Obama gets blamed?

Why is it whenever unemployment goes up, Bush gets blamed? Take responsibility for the good, but its someone else's problem when things don't go to plan.
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:17 am

The bad news: Hours will be cut to avoid paying for employees insurance.
The good news: More people will have jobs to make up for the reduced hours of others.
The bad news: No one will make enough to live on, so dependence on govt support will continue.
The good news: The more people need the govt, the more power govt has.

I'm not sure if politicians realize the impact that the healthcare act will have on small businesses. Those business owners are smart people who personally invested their lives to build something. They will figure out a way to mitigate the healthcare plan, but unfortunately it will come out of the hide of the employees - that's just how it's set up. That, or they may fail.

There's a lot of talk about the 1%, and I think Harry Reid puts small business in the 3% group. By making the business community somewhat of the bad guy or lucky guy or whatever ("you didn't build that"), I believe we have created a self-fulfilling anti-business mindset amongst many people. How that can be a good thing is beyond me, but that's how it seems to be going from my perspective.

Pay an extra $500/month for healthcare for low/lower wage employees with limited skills? Those days will end for a great many people, and they are precisely the ones that need to be working as much as possible to support their families. I think we will have a lot of really healthy but desperately poor people, and an even larger percentage paying no net federal income taxes (or getting thousands of dollars more back then they ever paid in).

So then we have more pressure on business to pay more in taxes, the rest of the wage earners will pay more in taxes, the government teet grows ever more voluminous, and the cycle continues.

I think Obama inherited a horrible situation. I think both the Dems and the Republicans have put us here. I think Obamas economic policies are doing little to actually fix the problem - that we've seen growth is to be expected. I don't know exactly how to fix it all, but demonizing the rich and burdening small business makes for a successful election but IMHO opinion does little to actually fix what's broken. That includes ramming through a health care bill in a manner that would serve as a great example for pushing through tax reform and budget cuts, but oh we'll......

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Aesma
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 8:07 am

Here many companies announced layoffs after the elections because they didn't want the news to influence the outcome (since a supposedly business friendly president was seeking reelection). It has nothing to do with who actually won.
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iFlyLOTs
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:14 pm

Please don't flame me if I am completely wrong but I thought that;

1) The Boeing cuts had to do with the fact that they were re-structuring their defense arm and not so much the Obama economy, and the majority of them were in the administrative part of the defense arm (although I guess this could be attributed to Obama wanting to cut military spending)
2) The fiscal cliff being a much more looming problem than the implementation of Obamacare. An non-partisan group said that if the fiscal cliff happened that we would end up in a recession anyway, no matter what happened in the election.

I could very well be wrong.. But that was more the feel I was getting when I saw that the stock market wasn't doing so hot.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Fri Nov 09, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 5):
most of Obamacare, particularly the tax and mandate, is absolutely feared by small business owners.

This is the main reason why I am against Obamacare. It's also most feared by individuals, especially to those who work part time and go to school. This is a part of the package that really needs to be thrown out. We are not ready for such a mandate. A jobs package needs to come first before mandating health care. If there are no jobs, then how will this be paid for?!
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Sun Nov 11, 2012 5:35 pm

If you have 4 employees working about 35 hours a week, it is very possible that you will look to hire a new employee and reduce the existing employees hours. Personally, I will gauge it based partly on performance and life circumstance, but I can guarantee that every business needs to find a way to mitigate the increased financial burden, and one of those ways is to reduce hours.

I believe the city of Seattle also now has a law mandating paid personal days off for employees at companies employing at least five full time individuals within the city. Again, regardless of the benefits or merits of such a law, the downside is that employers will be encouraged to reduce hours to both avoid the law or to mitigate it by having extra staff available to fill in for the employees missing work. So once more, there might be more people employed but all employees will likely be working less as those hours need to be spread around a larger pool of staff.

These are all challenges for small businesses. The difference between a small business and the government that mandates these things is that the small business cannot just continue losing money - they will either figure out a way to mitigate the new costs or they will fold.

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pu
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Sun Nov 11, 2012 10:21 pm

Some of the layoffs were just a protest that $400 million sent to Karl Rove and a couple billion spent elsewhere were unfairly NOT able to buy the election.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/investing...ts-gdp-outperform-under-democrats/

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 1):

Only when it was identified as such did they turn against it

Most of the Republicans I have seen posting on this board, and on Capitol Hill, are entirely concerned with WHO makes a policy proposal versus the predicted results of the policy by non-partisan sources. The placebo effect applies in politics as well: Obama ideas will always fail, regardless of provable evidence to the contrary.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The best system I personally know of is Switzerland's

For the purposes of comparison to the USA, there are essentially NO poor people in Switzerland. No immigrants. No high school dropouts. No habitual criminals. ( For comparison purposes, only. )

America's huge immigrant population, its wildly sporadic local educational system, its world-leading crime-punishment regime etc.... mean that what works in Switzerland, Sweden, Japan and other heterogeneous societies CANNOT work in America.



Pu
 
Mir
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
This is a part of the package that really needs to be thrown out. We are not ready for such a mandate.

The mandate is how the whole thing is paid for. So it's not a good idea to take it out.

-Mir
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bjorn14
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting pu (Reply 19):
America's huge immigrant population, its wildly sporadic local educational system, its world-leading crime-punishment regime etc.... mean that what works in Switzerland, Sweden, Japan and other heterogeneous societies CANNOT work in America.

  

Also when they passed Medicare in 1965 they said it would cost $80 B in 10 years, it ended up costing $365 B for those 10 years and still counting. If you think America will do a great job with health care, I have 2 words for you "VA Hospitals" They can't even take care of sick servicemen & women let alone your Grandma.

My big fear is the the Medical Device Tax (that helps pay for Obamacare ) will stymie research in that area and cost us innovations that could have saved lives but then again dead people don't need medical care.

Also see:

www.dailyjobcuts.com

Employers were waiting to see if there would be a change and when there wasn't they saw more of the same and they started wielding the axe.

[Edited 2012-11-11 17:45:40]

Actually, America will see an astounding growth in small businesses as they try to get to the 49-employee level and 29-hour work week.


[Edited 2012-11-11 17:48:37]

[Edited 2012-11-11 17:49:53]
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PHX787
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting pu (Reply 19):
America's huge immigrant population, its wildly sporadic local educational system, its world-leading crime-punishment regime etc.... mean that what works in Switzerland, Sweden, Japan and other heterogeneous societies CANNOT work in America.

I think you mean "homogeneous" when talking about those societies, but you're 100% right.

We right wingers, and especially a lot of us here in the American southwest really have a lot of fear when people wish America was more like europe. We simply cannot be europe! And especially now with Europe in massive debt, we don't want that kind of government, and a lot of employers are saying that may come from a second term Obama regime.

Even with or without Mr. Obama in office, we still have the stagnation of government, with Dems in senate and Reps in house. Depending on who makes the best case to the American people, we will see a shift in congressional control in 2014...hopefully, back to the right, because so far, the left's ideas have lead us to more unemployment.
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casinterest
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
because so far, the left's ideas have lead us to more unemployment.

I think you are reading your graphs upside down again.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
We right wingers, and especially a lot of us here in the American southwest really have a lot of fear when

You could stop your sentence right here. This is all the Right has going for it. Fear and blame. For all it's talk about the liberals, the most destructive policies and action have occurred under the GOP.
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Mir
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
Even with or without Mr. Obama in office, we still have the stagnation of government, with Dems in senate and Reps in house.

You make it sound like having split control of Congress is a bad thing. It shouldn't be - if the two parties could actually try to help out the country rather than deciding that their primary objective should be to try and evict the current resident of the White House, then perhaps we could get some action going. And hopefully the beating the GOP took in the election will help them see that the people aren't buying what they've been selling, and get them to change their ways.

-Mir
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Ken777
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:37 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Obamacare will destroy small businesses AND corporations alike.

No it won't, If some small business owners don't want to keep going then there will be others who will step in, perform the work and hire the people.

Companies like Boeing have long laid off employees - especially those in the unions. They were doing well in Kansas & Oklahoma until they spun off the work to a new company called Spirit. Queer that. If Spirit can make a profit why couldn't Boeing

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
The very organizations needed to hire people to get our economy back on track, they're laying off.

Some defense related companies that expected a boom if Romney won have decided to trip with the Obama win.

Those companies know where their programs sit in terms of budget priorities and are going to react accordingly.


Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 2):
Why is it that whenver the stock market takes a dive, Obama gets blamed?

Right now I expect some sell offs in order to enjoy the current capital gains levels. I doubt very seriously that the GOP will work with the Democrats so the lower capital gains rate will die December 31st.

Considering the political differences right now I see all the tax cuts ending at the end of the year and a new start on Obama Tax Cuts developing for a rapid approval. That puts the House hard right in last place in terms of getting the job done. Boehner will have to depend on the House Democrats and some realistic Republicans to get the job done. That might cost him his job (Cantor is obviously waiting for that) but it will resolve a lot of issues.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Nobody is saying that the whole thing is rotten. There are some good parts of it. But there are bad parts as well and when taken as a package, I think the bad outweighs the good.

If someone in your family had a pre-existing condition your thinking would be the reverse.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The ones where the government pays for everything tend to be far less satisfactory than others, in terms of quality of care, survival rates, wait times etc.

The only one where I have had actual experience with is Australia. That is one of those where the government "pays everything" - almost. But the taxpayers fund that Medicare program so basically they are the ones paying everything. They do have private insurance available at a fraction (about 20%) of the costs in the US, simply because everyone without private insurance is covered.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
The best system I personally know of is Switzerland's. They have universal coverage, and it's 100% private (insurance-wise). They don't have anything like Medicare or Medicaid. The key is that their universal mandate is geared for catastrophic or big-ticket illnesses, and not the kitchen-sink coverage mandated by Obamacare

There were a lot of compromises with ObamaCare and one major reason was to keep the insurance companies on board. It is obviously less effective to add in the costs of private companies, but it was realistic.

One of the issues that has exploded our costs are the people without insurance who have to go to the ER for something that could have been addresses earlier for far less money. When we start seeing money invested in community/neighborhood clinics then you can start seeing significant reductions in costs. Both private and public.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 6):
I honestly wouldn't mind an option where I paid full whack for office visits, then had catastrophic, preventative care and prescriptions at a reasonable co-pay. I'm not even sick and if I paid retail, my Rx bill would over $1,000 per month.

My Rx bill wasn't that much before we got hit with 2 cancers each, but our health insurance was $1,000 after the first 4 years of W. Doubled in those 4 years. It really shows that you cannot trust either medical costs or insurance costs to be with the average middle class financial abilities. $1K a month is a pain, but better than the $1,500 a week for one single drug while my wife had a port.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
What I find really stupid in the American system (and Obamacare does nothing to change it) is that if I am happy with the coverage from my current insurer - I know them, they know me etc, and I change jobs, I am basically required to change to my new employer's provider

Which is a good argument to get nanny care off the backs of all employers. Move selection to the individual, even going with a government program if that is best for them. Pick a program that is best for you as an individual, or a family.

As long as we continue keeping the financial burden of nanny care on employer's backs you can look for a deterioration of that benefit. Higher co-pays, more limitations of coverage. Anything to keep costs down. Employer nanny care is an albatross and can't last forever - just as the tax free ride of employer nanny care cannot last forever.
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:05 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
The mandate is how the whole thing is paid for.

How exactly is it being paid for if an individual doesn't have employment with the mandate?

Jobs need to come first and foremost. Same logic applies to buying a house or a car. Gotta have a job to pay for it.
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flood
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:06 am

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
We all know the stock market tanked the last few says

We also know the new reports from Europe on their bleak economic outlook didn't help.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Saw this on some independent news websites

So why didn't you link to any?

Instead, you linked to the blog of a Fox contributor, author of "Unhinged: Exposing Liberals Gone Wild" and other ramblings. She also happens to be owner and CEO of that other site you linked to, namely Twitchy - which isn't a news website either.

Quoting PHX787 (Thread starter):
Apparently 45 companies have announced layoffs. Preemptive moves to avoid suffering major losses in an Obama economy.

Have you looked at any of those reports?

Blackberry (RIM) has been in the crapper for years. In fact, their stock came crashing down in 2008. I guess that makes their demise Bush's fault  

The Pepsi article is from January.

Groupon laid off 80 sales employees this week, "reflecting ongoing efforts to automate some sales functions". Machines replacing humans, haha... what a silly concept.

US Cellular layoffs - due to Sprint "reaching a deal to buy U.S. Cellular markets in the Midwest which include the Fort Wayne area for $480 million to boost its network capacity as it upgrades its network.". That said, guess who's hiring?

Another right-wing list making the rounds even managed to include Gameforge Berlin amongst those companies. Goodness, a German company laying off 20 employees... in Germany. The tentacles of Obamacare know no bounds!

Some other scary headlines from the past few days:

52% of KY manufacturers say they plan to hire in 2013
WMX Group Plans to Hire Over 1,000 Wealth Advisors in the Next 12 Months
GoHealth plans to hire an additional 150 employees by spring
Herbalife considers Winston-Salem site for plant with nearly 500 jobs
Whirpool Manufacturing Plant To Hire 150 Workers
The Chouest La Ship facility plans to hire 250 to 500 skilled employees in the next six to eight months.
Company plans to hire 266 workers in Middlebury
Qualtrics Pledges To Hire 1,100 in Utah
StarTek plans to hire 80 customer service representatives by year’s end
CMG Financial to open lending office in FL, hire as many as 70
Twin River to hold job fair next week - promising 350 new jobs
New Las Vegas call center to hire 100 workers; job fair set for Friday
Caesars plans to invest $25 million more in Baltimore casino - hire 500 more people than originally planned

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
We right wingers, and especially a lot of us here in the American southwest really have a lot of fear when people wish America was more like europe.

No, right-wingers have a lot of fear, period - and they do a darn good job of spreading it. And hey, if there's nothing to be fearful of - just make shit up.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
We simply cannot be europe!

I know! Especially Greece. Greece! I keep hearing about Greece! *thunder*
 
PlanesNTrains
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:42 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
No it won't, If some small business owners don't want to keep going then there will be others who will step in, perform the work and hire the people.

Companies like Boeing have long laid off employees - especially those in the unions. They were doing well in Kansas & Oklahoma until they spun off the work to a new company called Spirit. Queer that. If Spirit can make a profit why couldn't Boeing

You make it sound like magic. When you add costs to doing business, that changes the financial equation for that business. If that happens, the business may be able to eat the costs or raise their prices/rates. If not, they can either go under or reduce employee hours. In this economy, it is very difficult with the increase in costs in so many areas - food, energy, taxes, etc. - to keep just raising rates/prices. At some point, instead of doing that, you mitigate it on the employee end. Read: Reduced hours.

So in many, though certainly not all, cases you will see the people who aren't making a huge income trade off income for insurance. They might lose 5-10 hours/week at work but get health coverage. If you are healthy but hungry, you might very well prefer to keep the hours and skip the insurance, especially if you're younger. Regardless, this will affect people's income substantially, regardless of how simple some people want to make it sound. "Oh, you can't make money any more? Well too bad. Just close up, lose everything you've worked for, and someone else will just pop up and make it happen." In my opinion, that is largely a fallacy. After the last four years, businesses have cut about as much fat as they can. There just isn't a whole lot of opportunity to eat the costs and keep making decent money for many companies, and no superstar is going to be able to come in and magically make it happen instead. If it were that easy, they'd be doing it already.

Anyhow...

-Dave
-Dave
 
bjorn14
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Mon Nov 12, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 28):
You make it sound like magic.

That's the problem with most Liberals is they think money grows on trees or its OPM (Other People's Money)
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
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casinterest
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:17 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 29):
That's the problem with most Liberals is they think money grows on trees or its OPM (Other People's Money)

I find that laughable since the GOP with it's wars and tax cuts got us into the deficit we are in now. FYI, the 2012 deficit of 1.1 trillion is 100 billion less than what Bush left Obama with in 2009.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
PHX787
Topic Author
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
You make it sound like having split control of Congress is a bad thing. It shouldn't be

Well it's created stagnation. Both sides of congress haven't done crap in the last 2 years and it's mostly because of the media scaring the liberals into not doing anything.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 23):
You could stop your sentence right here. This is all the Right has going for it. Fear and blame. For all it's talk about the liberals, the most destructive policies and action have occurred under the GOP.

Read above: Liberals using scare tactics, such as throwing the granny off the cliff, and of course "Surrender your rights" etc etc   

Quoting casinterest (Reply 23):
I think you are reading your graphs upside down again.

Did you not see the topic of this thread?

Quoting flood (Reply 27):
So why didn't you link to any?

Did you not see my links?

Quoting flood (Reply 27):
No, right-wingers have a lot of fear, period - and they do a darn good job of spreading it. And hey, if there's nothing to be fearful of - just make shit up.

see above   

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 29):
That's the problem with most Liberals is they think money grows on trees or its OPM (Other People's Money)

  
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Newark727
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:44 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Read above: Liberals using scare tactics, such as throwing the granny off the cliff, and of course "Surrender your rights" etc etc

Hold on just a second. The GOP is just as happy to exploit benefit programs for the elderly as the Democrats are- just look at the Tea Party saying "Don't touch my Medicare" or the demographics of Mitt Romney's voters. Feel free to decry Congress- it's been the national pastime for over 200 years. But don't twist the truth to do it. And when it comes to "surrender your rights" I just have no idea what you're talking about, maybe a little context would help.
 
cws818
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:50 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
We right wingers, and especially a lot of us here in the American southwest really have a lot of fear when people wish America was more like europe.

That is irrational, because, as you say:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 22):
We simply cannot be europe!

We won't be Europe. Who has convinced you otherwise?
volgende halte...Station Hollands Spoor
 
flood
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:03 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Did you not see my links?

Did you even bother to read my reply?

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
see above

Indeed.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:26 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Did you not see the topic of this thread?

Show me jobs loss at any point in the last 36 months. I don't mean people getting laid off, I mean jobs numbers.

People get laid off all the time, even in the golden days of the 1990's.

In the last three years, there has been continuous jobs growth. Not fantastic, but not shrinkage.

If you're going to claim to be a "Conservative," at least get your facts straight.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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flipdewaf
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:43 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Did you not see the topic of this thread?

It probably should have read"Angry right winger tries to apportion blame as he struggles to come to terms with the choice of his nation"

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Did you not see my links?

Maybe the links should have been "Angry right winger trying to apportion blame cites other angry right wingers trying to apportion blame as proof that blame accusations have merit".
I think someone mentioned something the other day about a republican echo chamber, does it make you feel good about yourself regugitating facts that haven't been substantiated?

Unless you can show statistically significant evedence that the democrats being in power have caused a drop in either employment or GDP then I'm afraid that you are just the next link in the chain fear spreading by the republicans.

No doubt you will not take any notice of what others have to say if they do not agree, thats not how the "echo chamber" works.

Fred
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smittyone
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:54 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 29):
That's the problem with most Liberals is they think money grows on trees or its OPM (Other People's Money)

If you genuinely believed the things you've posted on here about Jesus, why would you even care about money? Wouldn't you be happy to give as much of it as possible away? Shouldn't we all be?

It seems that you are defining "Liberal" as a person who actually wants to act on what an awful lot of "Conservatives" profess to believe in. That's ironic.

[Edited 2012-11-13 03:17:07]
 
bjorn14
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:55 am

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 37):
SmittyOne

The difference is that I decide who to give my money to. Liberals want to decide for me who my money should go to. And trust me I give plenty of it away. I live by an old Native American proverb "Your wealth is not determined by how much you have but by how much you give away"

G-d has blessed me and I want to bless others.

[Edited 2012-11-13 03:56:59]
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
aloges
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:31 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
G-d has blessed me and I want to bless others.

So you want to become other people's God by blessing them. Interesting.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Mir
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:50 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Read above: Liberals using scare tactics, such as throwing the granny off the cliff

Death panels. That is all.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
bjorn14
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:53 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 39):
So you want to become other people's God by blessing them. Interesting.

Not at all, I try to give money as anonymously as possible.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
aloges
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:16 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 41):
Not at all, I try to give money as anonymously as possible.

A blessing is an act of God, just as you said:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
G-d has blessed

and the most you can do is wish His blessings onto someone else. Hence, this:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
I want to bless others.

shows quite clearly that you view your charitable donations as equal to God's work.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 1552
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:41 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 41):
I try to give money as anonymously as possible.

But broadcast it to the world on the internet?

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
And trust me I give plenty of it away

Nice!
Image
 
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casinterest
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:37 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Did you not see the topic of this thread?
Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Read above: Liberals using scare tactics, such as throwing the granny off the cliff, and of course "Surrender your rights" etc etc

Both parties do it, but in the case of the GOP and it's Fake News network, more scare and featr and misinformation get spread to the masses. Especially due to the GIOP and Fake News Network mistrust of the MSM and it;s adherence to facts,statistics, and polls. These are things the GOP can't stand, when heresay, faith, and Honest godly men are speaking.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 31):
Did you not see the topic of this thread?

The stock market has not tanked. Especially when comparing other events in the history of the dow, and layoffs are natural for any company. Some will layoff, some will hire, at every day of the year. The jobless rate is what is of concern. For the last 30-36 months that trend has been to show an bettering economy.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
smittyone
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:40 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 38):
The difference is that I decide who to give my money to. Liberals want to decide for me who my money should go to. And trust me I give plenty of it away. I live by an old Native American proverb "Your wealth is not determined by how much you have but by how much you give away"

G-d has blessed me and I want to bless others.

I'm not looking to jab you about what you do with your money - if you give a lot of it away, then good for you. If you don't, then good for you.

My point was that a lot of the Socially Conservative folks - largely Christian - seem also to be Fiscally Conservative and therefore extremely agitated by any notion of redistribution of wealth by the Government. Far and above a healthy concern for the proper operation of a market economy (which is what bothers ME about it), they seem personally offended that the Government might decide what to do with "their money"...more specifically that the Government might use it for purposes of which they do not approve. Which I find supremely ironic when you consider that their role model Jesus Christ would never have been caught accumulating wealth in the first place, and directed his followers to live their lives in disregard for earthly treasure and all the baggage that comes with it. Giving money to 'worthy' causes is beside the point.

Conservatives cannot both claim to truly believe what Jesus said about the nature and future of this world and also worry where their money goes. The concepts are not compatible. Likewise, they can't insist that the rest of us follow Jesus' teachings on social issues like abortion or gay marriage while they re-rack their investment portfolios and bitch about welfare handouts. If it were merely private hypocrisy I wouldn't even bother with this post, but I fear that it is far worse than that - the political impasse created by these people may make it impossible for leadership of both parties to come together to find practical solutions to the real problems facing the country in 2012.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 42):
aloges
Quoting aloges (Reply 42):
flipdewaf

OTOH, if I didn't help ppl you would then call me a hypocrite because of my faith/values. You can't have it both ways.

"Woe to those who call good evil and evil good" Isaiah 5:20
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
aloges
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:12 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 46):
OTOH, if I didn't help ppl you would then call me a hypocrite because of my faith/values.

I use that word very sparingly and have no recollection of discussing your faith with you (brief exchanges do not count). So no, I would most certainly not call you a hypocrite unless you gave me a reason for it.

My problem is this: you seem to believe that charity is a basis for a stable society. However, charitable donations depend entirely on the donors' ability and desire to give. So as soon as either diminishes, some of those who have had to rely on donations will go away empty-handed. Desperation and uncertainty are prime causes for social unrest, which means that a system that's based on unreliable charity is not a functional social security system. I realise that donating money gives people a much nicer feeling than paying taxes or other mandatory contributions, but that cannot be the deciding factor when it comes to designing a social security system.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Ken777
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 21):
Also when they passed Medicare in 1965 they said it would cost $80 B in 10 years, it ended up costing $365 B for those 10 years and still counting.
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 21):
My big fear is the the Medical Device Tax (that helps pay for Obamacare ) will stymie research in that area and cost us innovations that could have saved lives but then again dead people don't need medical care.
Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 28):
You make it sound like magic.

Actually I was thinking competition. We had a grocery store near us shut down a few months ago - they simply couldn't compete. This was long before the election so there was no political factor. Now there is an empty store and I would expect someone to be moving in sometime in the future. Or WalMart buying the property and building a Neighborhood Store.

The reality is there is an empty store that should be able to bring in customers if they are competitive. BTW, it is in a pretty good neighborhood as far as demographics go.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 29):
That's the problem with most Liberals is they think money grows on trees or its OPM (Other People's Money)

As opposed to Bain's approach?
 
PHX787
Topic Author
Posts: 7881
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RE: Post-Election Stock Market Tanking + Layoffs

Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting cws818 (Reply 33):
We won't be Europe. Who has convinced you otherwise?

Well, liberals trying to convince me that socialism is actually good

Quoting Mir (Reply 40):
Death panels. That is all.

Which actually exist, or will exist under obamacare
http://www.wnd.com/2012/10/obama-adviser-admits-we-need-death-panels/
It's not good to ration healthcare. If my leg is broken, I don't want them to wrap it and not give me crutches.
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