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2707200X
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What's Next For The Republican Party?

Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:57 pm

It seemed that Republicans where quite surprised at the loss of the election in accordance to their pollsters. Mitt Romney was dealt a land slide electoral victory and yes a plurality of the votes and they lost 8 seats in the House and 2 seats in the Senate.

It seems like some conservative commentators around the block like Bill Kristol are saying raise taxes on the rich, David Frum talked about the "conservative entertainment machine", and Sean Hannity is talking about a "road to citizenship".

Do Republicans have to rethink the way the party is organized? How are they going to expand their base beyond the middle to older age white dude who watches Fox news, listens to Rush and thinks all liberals are the spawn of the Devil.
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Tugger
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:08 am

Well for one, I think the parts has to admit and recognize that the "Moderate Republican" does exist and is important. Then the party needs to actually start to pander to them instead of the more extreme elements of the party.

For me personally I wish the party would go and focus on the fiscal elements and leave the social elements alone (OK fine keep a few that really seem to define them - absolute gun freedom and abortion seem to be the biggest) but the others... review carefully and dump 'em if they don't absolutely have a fiscal element that demands them.

Tugg
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Dreadnought
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 12:43 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Well for one, I think the parts has to admit and recognize that the "Moderate Republican" does exist and is important.

It's not so simple. May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:00 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):

I honestly don't think we would've seen a President Bachmann or President Santorum. I don't think it's an issue of whether a candidate is moderate or conservative, I think it matters if they're seen as a strong leader, not whacky/extreme, and true to their values. Having traditional values can put a candidate into the "extreme" category depending on how much they campaign on them, so I don't think that is what the Republicans need.

When we hear the call for a "strong, conservative candidate" I think people are talking about a strong leader who has fiscal conservative views on the economy. When you hear "moderate" Republican, it seems like they either don't care too much about social issues or they aren't too strong on the fiscal beliefs... neither of which are going to generate the votes.

In 2016, I can see a variety of candidates winning... from a "conservative" like Christie to a "moderate" like Huntsman. You can see how these two differ from a Santorum (conservative) or a Romney (moderate.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there is a lot more to a candidate than the label "conservative" or "moderate," and the GOP doesn't NEED a conservative or moderate in 2016, they need a STRONG and effective leader. JMO
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Mir
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.

McCain's chances went downhill once he attached Palin and her more right-wing ideology to his ticket (not that he had much of a chance anyway, since he had the stigma of being from Bush's party to overcome). And Romney was pretty much Bush incarnate.

Remember also that several tea party favorites who just made it into Congress in the last election were sent packing this time around. That's an indication that moving back to the right isn't the way to go for the GOP.

-Mir
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FlyPNS1
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:02 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.

Neither were really moderates. Sure, they were moderate compared to Rick Santorum, but they weren't really moderate relative to most Americans. When your solution to illegal immigration is "self deportation" of 12 million people, you are not a moderate. When you call 47% of American's "victims", you are not a moderate.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
It's not so simple. May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.

Yes. Very good point. So let me put this one to you: Do you know how many people I heard saying something like: "I might vote for Romney, but it's his party that scares the piss out of me."?

I heard it an awful lot. Seriously, the GOP scares a lot of people. I promise you that eliminating all the moderates and just keeping extremists aboard isn't going to win you anything. Do you honestly believe that ANY of the other candidates (leaving Mr. Huntsman aside) would have done better than Mr. Romney in the election? I'd love to have seen a Santorum/Obama election. I think Mr. Obama might have carried a full 80% of the popular vote. With Mrs. Bachmann, maybe 85-90. But even Mr. Gingrich (who is merely "loony" with his Moonbase, rather than stark raving insane) might have done as well as 35% or 40%.

Mr. Romney's loss was less about Mr. Romney and more about his party. I have to agree with the Republicans who say that they lost more than Mr. Obama won. On the other hand, the GOP had better pay careful attention in the House. The popular vote would have handed the Democrats the House. It is only gerrymandering (and something really needs to be done about that on a national level; it's out of hand on both sides) that kept them in the majority. They also lost two seats in the senate.

If you think that this has nothing to do with the Tea Party and their economically nonsenical, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist agenda (and let's skip the part where you claim it's not; it is and we all know it is), then I'd encourage the GOP to keep up doing what they're doing and see where that lands them in 2014 and 2016.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:13 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
"I might vote for Romney, but it's his party that scares the piss out of me."?

      I had a hard time deciding this election, and a major strike against Romney was rewarding the GOP for what I believe was extremely bad behavior. I mean there is the crap which every politician/political party engages in, and then there is the GOP 2010-2012. I voted straight Republican in 2008 and I am ashamed of what they have become.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
I think Mr. Obama might have carried a full 80% of the popular vote. With Mrs. Bachmann, maybe 85-90. But even Mr. Gingrich (who is merely "loony" with his Moonbase, rather than stark raving insane) might have done as well as 35% or 40%.

I'd think they'd carry the ~30% of registered Republicans but yeah, I agree, it would have been a landslide. Rick Santorum scared the **** out of me

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
If you think that this has nothing to do with the Tea Party and their economically nonsenical, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist agenda (and let's skip the part where you claim it's not; it is and we all know it is), then I'd encourage the GOP to keep up doing what they're doing and see where that lands them in 2014 and 2016.

I think a lot of it lies in what the TP started out as and what they have become. I loved their overall message in the beginning... smaller government and fiscal responsibility. I'm sure almost everyone agrees with the fiscal responsibility part, and although many would disagree with smaller government, it as at least a rational, respectable position. But now, you are right, the TP is indeed far right and has a strong religious influence. I do see some people identify themselves as TP but could care less about social issues and are strong believers in the fiscal side...
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Dreadnought
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
I honestly don't think we would've seen a President Bachmann or President Santorum. I don't think it's an issue of whether a candidate is moderate or conservative, I think it matters if they're seen as a strong leader, not whacky/extreme, and true to their values. Having traditional values can put a candidate into the "extreme" category depending on how much they campaign on them, so I don't think that is what the Republicans need.

When we hear the call for a "strong, conservative candidate" I think people are talking about a strong leader who has fiscal conservative views on the economy. When you hear "moderate" Republican, it seems like they either don't care too much about social issues or they aren't too strong on the fiscal beliefs... neither of which are going to generate the votes.

I agree. I don't like the more socially conservative wing of the GOP.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
If you think that this has nothing to do with the Tea Party and their economically nonsenical, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist agenda (and let's skip the part where you claim it's not; it is and we all know it is)

Oh, BS. The TP was a single-issue movement. Get government spending under control. Period. Look at the mission of the Tea Party Express, one of the biggest and oldest organizations: http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission. Nothing about abortion, gay rights, immigration, etc. Just bringing government spending under control.

It is a powerful message, which, when unpolluted by a social agenda, could well lead to victory for conservatives, as Delta said. The left recognized that, and with their minions in the media, launched a concerted campaign to paint the TP as "extremists". They were helped also by much smaller movements which called themselves "Tea Parties" but who completely missed the point and included things like gay marriage into their platforms.

This propaganda campaign succeeded. Nowadays, when pollsters ask about it, the TP has only a 25% or so favorability rating. Part of that blame goes to people like Bachmann, who hijacked the TP banner and added her own social issues to it. I remember being at an early TP event where she was invited to speak, and people all around me were appalled at the fact that she was missing the point - The TP was not meant to be a platform for/against social issues. It was to demand that the federal government stop spending us into oblivion - that's it. I was in one of the very first organizational meetings for the TP, even before Obama became president, when the big issue was the Wall Street bailout. We hoped that many Democrats would join us. They're not all stupid. And I blame people like Bachmann for ruining the movement's message and momentum, as well as the media which pointed to her as being characteristic of the TP.
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Mir
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Part of that blame goes to people like Bachmann, who hijacked the TP banner and added her own social issues to it.

Apparently, who hijacked it to such an extent that the Tea Party Express invited her to deliver a national response to Obama's 2011 State of the Union address.

-Mir
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DeltaMD90
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
who hijacked the TP banner and added her own social issues to it.

This is the crux of the issue, right here everyone. This is why the TP has such a bad reputation today.

I'm with you Dreadnought, I really value the TP's call for fiscal responsibility. But I really do not care which banner it's under, and right or wrongly, the TP's name is tarnished. It just highlights the disconnect--you may indeed vote for a TP member, not because of the social issues, but you place more importance on the economy. Someone then labels you a Christian extremist because of the social issues tagged along... it ain't fair, but at the same time, you can at least see where they are coming from. It's a very sticky situation.

Well, since this is an aviation site, I'm sure this analogy works: Delta is the GOP and the Song is the TP. It was an interesting idea but it really didn't work out and ended up negative for Delta/the GOP. BUT, when Song was disbanded, parts of it went into the Delta system... maybe the TP will go away and the fiscal responsibility portion will be retained by the GOP.

lol, if that doesn't make sense, don't mind me, I'm very tired
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ltbewr
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:25 am

Consider that the Republicans have control of the Congress, a substantial plurality in the Senate and Romney only lost by 2% of the National vote, they many only have to make a few minor changes to control all 3.

Support reasoned regulations as to the environment, businesses and corporations, especially 'wall street', but do ditch foolish and excessive ones.
Don't support men who have very sexist believes as to women, saying dumb things as to rape and are anti-abortion absolutists.
Moderate views as to Hispanics/Latinos, especially as to immigration, end support of 'papers please ID laws' and assure fair economic opportunity for them.
Stop trying to marginalize Blacks and the poor. Yes, insist on preventing abusive and wasteful spending, but don't go over the top, back off excessive voting ID laws, the gerryminding voting districts to marginalize them and eliminating moderate Affirmative Action rules..
Don't try to destroy public K-12 education. Don't take away or massively cut critical programs including as to collages as they need for survival to assure an advantage of the USA with a well and 'liberal' (open minded) educated workforce and citizenry. Move away from 'teach to the test' and excessive use of testing.
Accept moderately higher taxes on high income persons (at least returning to the pre-Bush 43 rates for those over $250K), higher short-term capital gains tax rates to discourage 'flipping' of stocks, real property, corporations.
Stop scaring Seniors and near future ones as to Social Security and Medicare but support moderate reforms to reduce waste, cut benefits to those getting high value pensions or have considerable cash retirement funds.
Work on problems with 'Obamacare' to improve it, perhaps limit penalties for not having health care coverage especially in using the IRS to enforce it and penalties on employers for not offering HC insurance.
Don't support the most radical loudmouth right-wing voices.
Consider cuts in overall Military spending, especially in costly equipment better designed for 'the last war', spend more on rebuilding our National Guard forces, who have lost huge amounts of equipment in deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan and need at home when natural disasters strike (like Sandy). Support withdrawal from Afghanistan ASAP.
Moderate trade policies to bring back some jobs to the USA and prevent any more from leaving.
Knock off anti-union policies but do support pressure on all unions to clean up their internal corruptions and excessive support of bad members - workers.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 7):
I think a lot of it lies in what the TP started out as and what they have become. I loved their overall message in the beginning... smaller government and fiscal responsibility.

It's one thing to say "fiscal responsibility" and it's another thing to push to the brink of default. This is not anything that we have ever run into in the modern USA.

Fiscal responsibility means paying your bills, at the very least. So that does mean that if the taxes are the lowest they've ever been in history, maybe it's time to raise them on the people who are making more money than they ever have in history.

The Tea Party was about GOP rage at Obama and everything he stood for.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):

Consider that the Republicans have control of the Congress, a substantial plurality in the Senate and Romney only lost by 2% of the National vote, they many only have to make a few minor changes to control all 3.

A plurality in the senate? They lost two seats.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Oh, BS. The TP was a single-issue movement. Get government spending under control. Period. Look at the mission of the Tea Party Express, one of the biggest and oldest organizations: http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission. Nothing about abortion, gay rights, immigration, etc. Just bringing government spending under control.

Yeah, I knew you'd say that. So why is it that 100.0% of TPers that I ever met or interacted with (and there were a lot) were anti-gay, anti-Muslim, anti-abortion, and pro-gun? 100.0% No exceptions.

The Communists in China say that they are for liberation and the elimination of money and scarcity. That doesn't make it so. It's not what you SAY you're for; it's what you actually try to do.
-Doc Lightning-

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casinterest
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:49 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 10):
maybe the TP will go away and the fiscal responsibility portion will be retained by the GOP.

The Tea Party came about under very dubious circumstances. Namely the beginnings of the great recession. A single platform item never forms a party. The Tea Party naturally was carved mostly from the GOP which was trying to reclaim some sense of spending control. However it basically had no platform to start with. Taxed Enough Already made no sense when it was the lack of taxes that ruined any sort of "rainy day" fund for weathering the recession.

The Tea Party's sole was already formed from the GOP as they realized after 6-7 years of Bush, that the policies were no closer to paying off the defict. It caught fire under Obama and the sudden siezure of a spending liberal as the ultimate issue. It payed off well in 2010, however in 2012 many saw the Tea Party for what it was. Loud folks whose biggest danger was to the very republic they wanted to uphold with their threats of not raising the debt ceiling. They wanted to cut spending so hard it would cripple the economy. The current fiscal cliff shows that no one wants to cut spending that much and that hard.


From here , the GOP needs to get rid of some of it's very bad characteristics.
1. The Social Agenda (Some of the beliefs are great personal morals, they don't need to be in Government)
2. The Anti Intellectial Agenda (Global Warming, creationism) . Believe what you want to , but don't doubt science with quotes from a book written ages ago.
3. The anti-immigrant stances. There's a reason so many come to the US, and it isn't for the lack of jobs.



Not all of the above needs to be given up, but quite a few would be nice. The alternative is that the GOP goes away or splits up and becomes 2 parties.
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Dreadnought
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:59 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
Consider that the Republicans have control of the Congress, a substantial plurality in the Senate and Romney only lost by 2% of the National vote, they many only have to make a few minor changes to control all 3.

Another interesting thing to note is that the same electorate that voted for Obama voted for a majority GOP House. Millions voted for Obama, but for a GOP congressman. That blows my mind.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Yeah, I knew you'd say that. So why is it that 100.0% of TPers that I ever met or interacted with (and there were a lot) were anti-gay, anti-Muslim, anti-abortion, and pro-gun? 100.0% No exceptions.

And I can truthfully say that your description fits none of the TP'ers I know (and helped organize). One or two at a time, perhaps, but not the neandrathals you describe.

While we are speaking of it, Pelosi liked to call the TP "Astroturf", that it was not a grassroots movement. I can tell you first hand that it was. Our first meeting in 2008 was on a frosty night at Denny's. Only 8 people showed up at our first meeting. the following weeks those 8 people brought their friends, and their friends, and soon started to hook up with similar-minded groups in neighboring towns. It was pretty much all started on Facebook. A variety of names were discussed. Then someone got the idea of the Boston Tea Party and the rest is history.

[Edited 2012-11-12 20:00:34]
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mt99
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:00 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):

Consider that the Republicans have control of the Congress, a substantial plurality in the Senate and Romney only lost by 2% of the National vote, they many only have to make a few minor changes to control all 3.

He won by a bigger margin in that GWB!!

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...resident-now-has-wind-at-his-back/

[Edited 2012-11-12 20:02:24]
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casinterest
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:03 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Pelosi liked to call the TP "Astroturf"

But it was astroturf. It was a substitute for the real thing that was supposed to make everyone OK with playing in a "Dome" away from the elements. However it wasn't the real thing, and it was tough and had maintenance issues, and albeit it was good for a storm, on a sunny day people didn't want to be in a Dome. Players didn't like the injuries. The tea party was never a grassroots movement , it was people looking for shelter from the storm the GOP rained down on them
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Mir
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:30 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Another interesting thing to note is that the same electorate that voted for Obama voted for a majority GOP House. Millions voted for Obama, but for a GOP congressman. That blows my mind.

Except that they didn't. This should really blow your mind: depending on how you want to look at the races, Democrats either won more votes for the House than Republicans by a small but not insignificant margine, or they tied. In other words, if you look at the nationwide vote, the country voted for both a Democratic president and a Democratic House of Representatives. And yet the House remains firmly in Republican control - that's gerrymandering for you.

-Mir
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DocLightning
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:15 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
And I can truthfully say that your description fits none of the TP'ers I know (and helped organize).

Then maybe you live on an island somewhere in space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tea_Par...e.2C_bigotry_and_public_perception

You can dismiss facts as liberal propaganda, but this is what TPers have done and said. Remember, what you DO AND SAY is important, not what you SAY you do and say.

I guarantee that if a group of Muslim men in traditional garb show up to the next TP rally, they will not get a warm welcome.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
While we are speaking of it, Pelosi liked to call the TP "Astroturf", that it was not a grassroots movement. I can tell you first hand that it was. Our first meeting in 2008 was on a frosty night at Denny's. Only 8 people showed up at our first meeting. the following weeks those 8 people brought their friends, and their friends, and soon started to hook up with similar-minded groups in neighboring towns. It was pretty much all started on Facebook. A variety of names were discussed. Then someone got the idea of the Boston Tea Party and the rest is history.

Are you claiming you personally invented the Tea Party or took part in its invention?   

Ron Paul first used the term in 2007.

And see, this divorce from reality that you exemplify, the inability to take an honest look at yourself and WHY the TP lost this election for the GOP is why you are going to continue to damage the GOP until it becomes irrelevant. I just hope another party shows up to counterbalance the DNC.
-Doc Lightning-

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flipdewaf
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:09 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 13):
2. The Anti Intellectial Agenda (Global Warming, creationism) . Believe what you want to , but don't doubt science with quotes from a book written ages ago.

But the book written ages ago is one of the biggest tools that the GOP use to spread fear among the voters.

Fred
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FlyPNS1
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:06 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Another interesting thing to note is that the same electorate that voted for Obama voted for a majority GOP House. Millions voted for Obama, but for a GOP congressman. That blows my mind.

As Mir points out, this is purely because of gerrymandering of districts. You'll notice in the Senate, where there is no gerrymandering, the Democrats are in the majority.
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:34 pm

The Republicans have, I think, two problems. The first and most important is that their positions on social issues are increasingly out of whack with the population and electorate at large. The second is that their fiscal policy doesn't seem to work as advertised - debt increased greatly under reagan/bush and then again under dubya while income inequality rose. I think these are the two main problems they face.

Add the fact that the cold war is over and nothing catastrophic happened from a terrorist stand point the past four years, they've shown themselves to be obstructionist to anything at odds with their dogma, and they'll take positions on scientific matters at odds with the facts. . . Then at the 'national' . . . .their reason to lead Is not sufficiently compelling, maybe worrying, and possibly frightening (see above posts).

If and when the debt gets under control and greatly reduced then I think their call of 'cut taxes to balance the budget' may once again entice enough votes and gain them the presidential office.
 
StarAC17
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Yes. Very good point. So let me put this one to you: Do you know how many people I heard saying something like: "I might vote for Romney, but it's his party that scares the piss out of me."?

Agreed, I think most Americans understood that electing Romney meant actually President Eric Cantor as he would have been a rubber stamp for congress and wouldn't stand up to the GOP.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Do you honestly believe that ANY of the other candidates (leaving Mr. Huntsman aside) would have done better than Mr. Romney in the election?

I think Gingrich would have done better (or a colossal failure) depending on how he ran his mouth during the campaign. Basically we know his baggage, he has more of a backbone than Romney did and wouldn't have gone with the "Just Trust me" attitude towards the American people that they didn't buy.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Oh, BS. The TP was a single-issue movement. Get government spending under control. Period. Look at the mission of the Tea Party Express, one of the biggest and oldest organizations: http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission. Nothing about abortion, gay rights, immigration, etc. Just bringing government spending under control.

I call    on that.

If that were the case where the hell were they when Obama's predecessor started two wars while cutting taxes, while starting a prescription drug program that was unfunded.

If Romney would have won and decided to stay the course of short term deficit spending to assist getting this economy back on its feet I bet you would not hear a peep about fiscal discipline from the tea party.
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Dreadnought
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:25 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
If that were the case where the hell were they when Obama's predecessor started two wars while cutting taxes, while starting a prescription drug program that was unfunded.

People were indeed upset, but not to the same level. GW Bush's deficits do not compare to Obama's. Also, if you will recall back to September and October of 2008, there were a lot of angry voices from the right protesting against the bailouts - which was the impotus behind the TP.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 22):
If Romney would have won and decided to stay the course of short term deficit spending to assist getting this economy back on its feet I bet you would not hear a peep about fiscal discipline from the tea party.

And I bet you'd be wrong.
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casinterest
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 6:33 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
People were indeed upset, but not to the same level. GW Bush's deficits do not compare to Obama's. Also, if you will recall back to September and October of 2008, there were a lot of angry voices from the right protesting against the bailouts - which was the impotus behind the TP.

GW's policies caused the Obama deficits. That is where the logical falacy of the tea party is, they can't do basic finance and accounting.
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Dreadnought
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 24):
GW's policies caused the Obama deficits.

GW created all the Federal welfare, unemployment benefits, AIFDC? Federal backing of mortgages, student loans, FICA, Solyndra? Obamaphones?

I did not know that.

And before you go off on the wars, their cost was only a small fraction of the deficit problem.
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casinterest
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:16 pm

[quote=Dreadnought,reply=25]GW created all the Federal welfare, unemployment benefits, AIFDC? Federal backing of mortgages, student loans, FICA, Solyndra? Obamaphones?

ObamaPHONES???? how about BUSH PHONES. Go look at the act date that created them. FICA, student loans ,and federal backing of mortgages did not cause the deficits. Unemployment Benefits and Welfare were policies created for events that cause undo hardship on citizens, and done prior to Obama. You are basically backing up my argument that the Tea Party is nothing buy a collective of foilks that have no clue how government and finance really work.

.
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NBGSkyGod
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:25 pm

The problem with the GOP is religion, not just nationally, but in the state/local governments as well. So many of the GOP candidates and agendas are based around religious ideals. Many of these ideals are extreme in their nature, including the numerous anti-gay legislation that have passes in various states.

While I understand that many of the GOP base is from the Religious Right, using religious views as a basis for legal legislation really skirts the First Amendment to the Constitution regarding not establishing a state religion.

The GOP needs to get away from religion as a base for its policies, and return to a party that is more focused on fiscal and defense issues rather than social/religious issues.
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 7:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
People were indeed upset, but not to the same level. GW Bush's deficits do not compare to Obama's.

Except they do. And they are directly responsible for Mr. Obama's deficits. As it happens, the deficit is shrinking rapidly. It will shrink more rapidly if the Bush tax cuts on the top earners (who are earning way more than they ever have before) are allowed to expire.

It will expand if the tax cuts expire on the middle class because that will lead to a recession.

Now this article right here sums the GOP's problems very nicely:

http://www.ericgarland.co/2012/11/09...strategist-regarding-white-people/

I won't provide a quote because it involves some strong language, but it's written from the perspective of a 38yo Son of the American Revolution, Heterosexual Caucasian male who is educated and makes money and pays taxes.

And here's Bobby Jindal:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...13/bobby-jindal-gop_n_2121511.html

In other words, while the upper eschelons of the GOP may be interested in protecting the wealthy's right to "their money" from businesses that "they built all by themselves," the GOP has turned to a base that seems to be made of a bunch of ignorant hicks and religious wackjobs by spewing rhetoric that is frankly psychopathological in nature. And when I say "psychopathological," I mean DSM-IV criteria. The sort of thing that I used to only hear from paranoid-delusional schizophrenic bums on the subway. Conspiracy theories, scientific denialism, scapegoating gays for destroying America, and the list goes on.

And this was the result. The next result if you continue the same tactic will be worse for you.

You may learn to accept reality and work with it, or you may continue denying its existence and continue to get punched in the face by it every two years.

Oh, and Paul Ryan also made a dead-on home-run. He said that the GOP lost because Obama got the urban and suburban vote. Yup. The reach he didn't quite make, though, is that the reason that urban and suburban people overwhelmingly vote for Democrats is because people living in cities actually know Muslims and gays and Mexicans. Many have traveled abroad and have discovered that, say, France isn't a communist bloc country. And so when over half of your party platform is based on trashing these folks who you live and work with every day, this is what you get.
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D L X
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:04 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
I can tell you first hand that it was. Our first meeting in 2008 was on a frosty night at Denny's. Only 8 people showed up at our first meeting. the following weeks those 8 people brought their friends, and their friends, and soon started to hook up with similar-minded groups in neighboring towns. It was pretty much all started on Facebook. A variety of names were discussed. Then someone got the idea of the Boston Tea Party and the rest is history.

Did you really just claim to be the founder of the Tea Party?
 
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:22 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Our first meeting in 2008 was on a frosty night at Denny's. Only 8 people showed up at our first meeting. the following weeks those 8 people brought their friends, and their friends, and soon started to hook up with similar-minded groups in neighboring towns. It was pretty much all started on Facebook. A variety of names were discussed. Then someone got the idea of the Boston Tea Party and the rest is history

...so this is your fault.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
He said that the GOP lost because Obama got the urban and suburban vote.

The Republicans need a brown guy for next time. Or even better a brown lady. Exactly what they are isn't so important as long as they aren't white.



Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
is that the reason that urban and suburban people overwhelmingly vote for Democrats is because people living in cities actually know Muslims and gays and Mexicans.

I'm not sure that's the case necessarily. Many Hispanic people are Catholics, at various levels of activity, and many blacks actually lean to the right socially.
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Tugger
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:23 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
It's not so simple. May I remind you that twice in a row, the GOP put forth moderates for President, McCain and Romney, and both were beaten.

They may have put forward "moderates" but they then spent a significant amount of time pandering to their more extreme elements trying to convince them that they were not that moderate. And when say "moderate" I am not meaning "fiscally loose", I think fiscal constraint and rationalism is (or should be) the core of the party. I'm talking about the party, the party is the people, the people of the Republican party had better discover that winning will be with the "moderates" (and yes they can be fiscally conservative with the ability to compromise when required, in other words no more Grover forcing people to sign pledges).

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Oh, BS. The TP was a single-issue movement. Get government spending under control. Period. Look at the mission of the Tea Party Express, one of the biggest and oldest organizations: http://www.teapartyexpress.org/mission. Nothing about abortion, gay rights, immigration, etc. Just bringing government spending under control.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Fiscal responsibility means paying your bills, at the very least.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Yeah, I knew you'd say that. So why is it that 100.0% of TPers that I ever met or interacted with (and there were a lot) were anti-gay, anti-Muslim, anti-abortion, and pro-gun? 100.0% No exceptions.

And I can truthfully say that your description fits none of the TP'ers I know (and helped organize). One or two at a time, perhaps, but not the neandrathals you describe.

My guess is it has to do with you each interacting with just a small population of the group. I am sure each of you is honest in what you are saying but neither has enough breadth of experience to have an accurate assessment from just personal experiences.

Quoting jet-lagged (Reply 21):
The Republicans have, I think, two problems. The first and most important is that their positions on social issues are increasingly out of whack with the population and electorate at large. The second is that their fiscal policy doesn't seem to work as advertised - debt increased greatly under reagan/bush and then again under dubya while income inequality rose. I think these are the two main problems they face.

This is a problem, if something doesn't work the first time... lets do it more! The Republican's are supposed to be fiscally smart and conservative, that doesn't JUST mean cutting taxes, it primarily means getting a keeping the budget under control and meeting the nations obligations in a smart and manageable way. Or at least it SHOULD mean that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
GW Bush's deficits do not compare to Obama's.

Actually they compare a lot actually, especially when you consider the "invested" portion of the debt (the $2-$3trillion from the Fed's "quantitative easing" programs the vast majority of which will be paid back and not counting any profits)

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
And before you go off on the wars, their cost was only a small fraction of the deficit problem.

It may "only" be about a trillion of the added debt but the wars were pretty big part of the problem because the shenanigan of "off-budget" funding that occurred. That should not be possible. There were quite a few ancillary elements that went along with the wars (increases to military budgets, military benefits, increased foreign obligations) that also made them a good part of the debt problem here.

Quoting NBGSkyGod (Reply 27):
The problem with the GOP is religion, not just nationally, but in the state/local governments as well. So many of the GOP candidates and agendas are based around religious ideals. Many of these ideals are extreme in their nature, including the numerous anti-gay legislation that have passes in various states.

While I understand that many of the GOP base is from the Religious Right, using religious views as a basis for legal legislation really skirts the First Amendment to the Constitution regarding not establishing a state religion.

The GOP needs to get away from religion as a base for its policies, and return to a party that is more focused on fiscal and defense issues rather than social/religious issues.

  
I think many people see the Republican party as the "Christian party" (oh OK they like to say "Judeo-Christian"), and that needs to end.

Quoting D L X (Reply 29):
Did you really just claim to be the founder of the Tea Party?

I honestly do not think he saying that at all. I think he is relating how it started in a grassroots way, and how he participated in that, because of a widespread disillusionment by many fiscal conservatives. Unfortunately the religious right saw its power suddenly being usurped and so jumped into it and destroyed its essence.
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 26):
ObamaPHONES???? how about BUSH PHONES. Go look at the act date that created them. FICA, student loans ,and federal backing of mortgages did not cause the deficits. Unemployment Benefits and Welfare were policies created for events that cause undo hardship on citizens, and done prior to Obama. You are basically backing up my argument that the Tea Party is nothing buy a collective of foilks that have no clue how government and finance really work.

You missed the point entirely, and made my point at the same time. The point was that most of the policies (if not all) that led to the huge deficits were in place long before either GWB or Obama.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
Except they do. And they are directly responsible for Mr. Obama's deficits. As it happens, the deficit is shrinking rapidly. It will shrink more rapidly if the Bush tax cuts on the top earners (who are earning way more than they ever have before) are allowed to expire.

It will expand if the tax cuts expire on the middle class because that will lead to a recession.

But wait - I thought the Bush tax cuts were just "tax cuts for the rich" that gave nothing significant to people lower down?

Could it be that you are admitting that the Dems lied about that?

Quoting D L X (Reply 29):
Did you really just claim to be the founder of the Tea Party?

Certainly not. I simply claim to be one of the early thousands who got together locally, and that the get-togethers grew over just a few months into a nation-wide movement. No one person started the TP movement. It popped up independently in thousands of places before starting to get organized.
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FlyPNS1
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
The point was that most of the policies (if not all) that led to the huge deficits were in place long before either GWB or Obama.

Very true, but then why do conservatives blame Obama for the deficits and make him out to be the primary cause?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
But wait - I thought the Bush tax cuts were just "tax cuts for the rich" that gave nothing significant to people lower down?

Certainly everybody benefited from the Bush tax cuts, though obviously the wealthy saw the biggest gains. The difference is simply this. If you are super wealthy, having to pay ten thousand more in taxes would be barely noticeable to you and have no significant impact on how you spend or behave. If you are poor/middle class and struggling to make ends meet, even an annual increase of $500 could be quite damaging.
 
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casinterest
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 8:52 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
You missed the point entirely, and made my point at the same time. The point was that most of the policies (if not all) that led to the huge deficits were in place long before either GWB or Obama.

You countered your own Claim, I nissed no point. I landed square on the incompetance of the GOP and Tea Party in laying blame for the fiscall mess.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
GW Bush's deficits do not compare to Obama's.

GW's deficits do compare to Obama's as all GW did was heap more burden on the deficit.
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D L X
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
The Republicans need a brown guy for next time. Or even better a brown lady. Exactly what they are isn't so important as long as they aren't white.

Sure... because no one would ever see through that.

Oh, it's a BROWN guy now... I guess they're not extreme anymore.

You need numbers, not just one.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):
Certainly not. I simply claim to be one of the early thousands who got together locally, and that the get-togethers grew over just a few months into a nation-wide movement. No one person started the TP movement. It popped up independently in thousands of places before starting to get organized.

Wait, is it thousands, or is it 8 that were with you first hand at the Denny's?

And you just so happened to pick the same name as Dick Armey's group, without organization?

You can't have it both ways.
 
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:08 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
Oh, it's a BROWN guy now... I guess they're not extreme anymore.

Just find someone who isn't white and they'll get more votes than they did before. All they have to do then is appeal to the middle and ignore social issues.
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mt99
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
The Republicans need a brown guy for next time. Or even better a brown lady. Exactly what they are isn't so important as long as they aren't white.

Bobby Jindal is brown. You think he would have faired any better?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
All they have to do then is appeal to the middle and ignore social issues.

That has nothing to do with "whiteness"...
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
Wait, is it thousands, or is it 8 that were with you first hand at the Denny's?

Eight.

Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
And you just so happened to pick the same name as Dick Armey's group, without organization?

I did not mention what we called ourselves. Frankly I can't remember, because it kept changing. What was Dick Armey's group's name and why does it matter?
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BMI727
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
You think he would have faired any better?

Only if he says the right things.

The Republicans need to abandon everything to pander to the middle. Tell them what they want to hear.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
That has nothing to do with "whiteness"...

Voters are getting less and less white. Have candidates follow this trend and pick up some cheap votes.
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mt99
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Only if he says the right things.

So its not about color , then? or is it? you need to make up your mind..

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
The Republicans need to abandon everything to pander to the middle. Tell them what they want to hear.

Whats wrong with that? that how you get votes, that how you win elections? Does the GOP want to win or not?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Voters are getting less and less white. Have candidates follow this trend and pick up some cheap votes.

They are also getting younger - younger candidate too?

[Edited 2012-11-13 13:38:05]
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BMI727
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:53 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 40):
So its not about color , then? or is it?

It partly is. They could help themselves out a lot if they'd just stop seeming like the party of old, white guys. Even if they still are.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
D L X
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
Quoting D L X (Reply 35):
And you just so happened to pick the same name as Dick Armey's group, without organization?

I did not mention what we called ourselves.

So you were misleading us when you were talking about your first hand observations saying

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Then someone got the idea of the Boston Tea Party and the rest is history.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
So you were misleading us when you were talking about your first hand observations saying

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Then someone got the idea of the Boston Tea Party and the rest is history.

I never said that I was there when they made that decision. Just that the groups were already in place and starting to network together.
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bjorn14
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:01 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
McCain's chances went downhill once he attached Palin and her more right-wing ideology to his ticket

I strongly disagree. Palin gave McCain a shot at winning. Before Palin, McCain was getting crowds of around 10K afterwards he was getting crowds of 50-60K. She ignited the conservative base. The word avalanche would have lost its meaning.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
The tea party was never a grassroots movement , it was people looking for shelter from the storm the GOP rained down on them

 
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
the Tea Party and their economically nonsenical, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynist agenda (and let's skip the part where you claim it's not; it is and we all know it is),

"Ridicule is your greatest weapon" ---Saul Alinsky

Quoting casinterest (Reply 24):
GW's policies caused the Obama deficits.

So Bush had a gun to Obama's head while saying spend that $5 Trillion or else. Huh Huh. Ask Harry Reid why he hasn't passed a budget in FOUR years?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 28):
the deficit is shrinking rapidly.

Source?
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casinterest
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 44):

So Bush had a gun to Obama's head while saying spend that $5 Trillion or els

Go back and show me the Obama policies that caused 5 trillion.
While you are at it, explain how Bush Left a Deficit of 1.2 trillion for the 2009 fiscal year, and then Obama now has a 1.1 Trillion Deficit for 2012.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 44):
Ask Harry Reid why he hasn't passed a budget in FOUR years?

Because congress won't raise any taxes for new revenue for new spending. So passing a new budget makes no sense when congress can't come up with the revenue.
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Mir
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 44):
Palin gave McCain a shot at winning. Before Palin, McCain was getting crowds of around 10K afterwards he was getting crowds of 50-60K. She ignited the conservative base.

And alienated everyone else. That's the GOP's problem.

-Mir
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Tugger
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:20 pm

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 44):
I strongly disagree. Palin gave McCain a shot at winning. Before Palin, McCain was getting crowds of around 10K afterwards he was getting crowds of 50-60K. She ignited the conservative base. The word avalanche would have lost its meaning.

It's "the base" that the Republicans are playing to that needs to change. "Firing up" the fringe, the hardcore religious and socially conservative is what is distancing them from the true core of the party which is more up of moderates and those that identify as "independent" and Libertarian.

I think Palin got a lot of people "excited" and especially those in the talk show world because that is their business. And the more fodder you give them to talk about and rile people up with (on both sides of the fence) the happier they are. It's funny, a lot of people here claim "the main stream media" is in the pocket of Democrats and "Lib'ruhls" but I tend to think the Republican party and many conservatives are under the control of the conservative talk-media machine. Just look at what happened when several Republican's spoke against Rush a few years ago, they were practically ejected from the party. Fortunately I have been happy to recently see a few Republican's stepping out and speaking their minds and not allowing the blowhards to control them (Chris Christie and Jeb Bush spring to mind).

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 44):
"Ridicule is your greatest weapon" ---Saul Alinsky

So you apparently follow him do you? Actually Saul Alinsky had some very powerful ideas that are used by many organizations. If you do not know and understand and practice some of his ideas you are not very smart.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 44):
Ask Harry Reid why he hasn't passed a budget in FOUR years?

Because certain people were not willing to compromise? That is certainly part of it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
NBGSkyGod
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:55 pm

Clearly the GOP is at a crossroads. Recently many of the hardliners have changed their tones and are now focusing more on moderate ideals rather than pandering to the extreamists.

An example of this is Sean Hanity looking at the amnisty policy as a possible solution the imigration issue.

http://articles.latimes.com/2012/nov...-sean-hannity-immigration-20121109

or Boby Gindal's lashing out at the GOP for treaing voters like morons.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/1...13/bobby-jindal-gop_n_2121511.html

If the GOP can get back to a more centerist position and away from the screaming extreamists then maybe they will have a chance in the future. So rather than blaming everyone else for their failings as a party, they need to look inside.

If the GOP could begin to look more like the party of semi-inteligent beings, rather than a bunch of crazed screaming religous zelouts (like the same ones they wish to wipe out in the Middle East), I think they will be able to expand their base and attract more of the independent voters that they lost in the last few elections.
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RE: What's Next For The Republican Party?

Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:51 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 42):

I read it as he first met with people at Denny's. BREAK. Initial movements were on FB, that's where the name came from. I can see how it ran together


Back on topic, I'm kinda liking the way the things seem to be going in the GOP right now. They see their flaws and know they have to do something about it... I hope they fix their problems for the country's sake (in regards to the gridlock.) The more bad ideas they remove that the Democrats don't have, the less likely these bad ideas have at seeing the light of day. I hope they can focus on their good ideas and keep the Democrats honest (as opposed to flat out opposing most that they do.)

And I have a question... what is the difference between a TP candidate and a Republican candidate? The only differences I've really seen are TP candidates call themselves TP candidates and they seem to be more enraged at the situation, but they don't seem to act much differently than other Republicans
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
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