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Birdwatching
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Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:00 pm

I know things have been going up and down for years, but I'm seriously alarmed now. Today rockets hit Tel Aviv for the first time in ages, and it looks like Israel is preparing a massive attack or even invasion of Gaza, mobilizing thousands of troops.
I have a bad feeling about this.
Are we on the eve of the war that we hoped would never erupt, right now?

Soren
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damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:09 pm

Well it's been nearly 4 years since the last excursion to Gaza... Lebanon in Aug 2006, Gaza in Dec 2008, Gaza in Nov 2012 now?

I can only hope it's not going to happen and both sides lay down the weapons. And I do mean *both* sides. No excursion into neighbouring lands that end up killing a 13-year old boy and afterwards playing "nobody knows why the amount of incoming rockets went up again, oh let's kill one of their leaders - that will surely calm the situation down". Same goes for the other side too ... no "oh it's boring, let's lob a few rockets to the north and see what happens".

Take two to tango, and two to fight ^^

D.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Thu Nov 15, 2012 10:54 pm

I don't know, Israel has been at the brink of war many times. I don't think a few rockets are gonna trigger anything drastic. Not trying to sound insensitive, but just trying to look at the huge picture.

Kinda off topic, but did anyone see the supposed twitter war between the IDF and Hamas?
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swissy
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Thu Nov 15, 2012 11:44 pm

Quoting damirc (Reply 1):
Take two to tango, and two to fight

How true... still cant believe the bs is going on... man we are n 2012!!
  
 
flanker
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:51 am

If the shelling continues, yes there will be war again.




Here are two articles to go along with this thread..


Hamas missile launch pad next to mosque, playground.

http://kleinonline.wnd.com/2012/11/1...lso-half-a-block-from-fajr-5-site/



Miraculous Recovery by Injured Gaza Man?

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162130#.UKWM9ofSJ2r
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BestWestern
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:16 am

I guess an election is in the offing.
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tz757300
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:32 am

Well both countries are filled with terrorists that hate each other so it's only bound to happen again.
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NAV20
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 1:43 am

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
I guess an election is in the offing.

Too right, bestwestern. The (early) election is due on January 22nd., and this most recent attack on Gaza amounts to Netanyahu killing people in the interests of keeping an election promise:-

"Kicking off his re-election campaign, Netanyahu focused in his speech on tough measures he had taken to improve security for Israelis, such as building a fence along the border with Egypt’s Sinai, and deploying a missile shield against rockets fired from Gaza.

"Alluding to past threats to attack Iran to stop it from building a nuclear bomb, something Tehran denies, Netanyahu said Israel now had new unspecified “capabilities to act against Iran and its satellites (allied militants in Gaza and Lebanon), capabilities we didn’t have in the past”."


http://www.france24.com/en/20121016-...rity-january-likud-polls-bibi-iran

The same 'political tactic' has been used before five out of the last seven elections:-

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPolitics/Article.aspx?id=292035

[Edited 2012-11-15 18:04:29]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
thediplomat
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:12 am

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Hardly unbiased sources?

Israelnationalnews - ah that old chestnut of rightwing zionism that even the Israeli government wont give a broadcasting licence to.

Aaron Klein - the person who wrote a book called "The Manchurian President: Barack Obama's Ties to Communists, Socialists and Other Anti-American Extremists"

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
The same 'political tactic' has been used before five out of the last seven elections:-

I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.
 
Acheron
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

Panem et circenses but at the expense of other human beings.
 
PHX787
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:23 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 1):
I can only hope it's not going to happen and both sides lay down the weapons. And I do mean *both* sides.

This crap is getting old, and I honestly think that it's going to jeopardize many more nations than just Israel. I.e., if the US continues to support it as it is doing, we are going to have some serious issues. At the same time, we cannot back out and let Hamas/Iran bomb the living crap out of innocent people. Nor can we let Israel do that.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:31 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Kinda off topic, but did anyone see the supposed twitter war between the IDF and Hamas?

No, haven't seen that, but its been reported here in OZ. that YouTube took down the video posted by the IDF, as it was flagged inappropriate by many users, and appropriately so, IMHO.

YouTube itself, said that the video breached its terms (see link) and took the video down, however, it appears that someone/body/organization, probably the IDF wanted it back up, so miraculously its back up, funny that  http://www.examiner.com/article/isra...st-banned-then-restored-by-youtube

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
Israel has been at the brink of war many times.

And Israelis call Arabs warmongers...... wheres that mirror again ?

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Could you have possibly provided a more biased source  
Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Hamas missile launch pad next to mosque, playground.

Oh wait, doctored pics. Reminds me of all the BS pics, that got us all involved in Iraq, pleas, let us not go there again !

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 5):
I guess an election is in the offing.

Yeah, there's nothing like a war at election time... way to go Bibi

And as per usual, our beloved PM Gillard and opposition leader Abbott have come out in total unquestioning support for Israel, yawn.   

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politi...acks-on-israel-20121116-29fx8.html

Is it any wonder, that Israel courts over seas political leaders, with sponsored, all expenses paid trips to Israel, just to see the "otherside" of things..... yeah right, lets buy and bribe support if we cant get it the legit way. Shocking.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 7):
The (early) election is due on January 22nd., and this most recent attack on Gaza amounts to Netanyahu killing people in the interests of keeping an election promise:-

Nav20, do you think he's got the balls (Bibi) to take this to the Iranians, that should be interesting indeed. ??????

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

I'd like to think so, but I don't have as much faith in the Israeli electorate as you may have. I think they will vote him back in, so on and on it will go unfortunately.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Nor can we let Israel do that.

Agreed, but your Government is as bad as ours when it comes to blindly supporting Israel at the expense of Palestinians, time and time again.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
if the US continues to support it as it is doing, we are going to have some serious issues.

"We are" or "you already have"

[Edited 2012-11-15 19:33:21]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:49 am

To be totally honest, Hamas doesn't scare me as much as Syria.. What happens if near the Golan Heights a battle breaks out and more stuff is shot across the DMZ.. I don't see Israel just holding back like they and Turkey so far have, and the UN can only do so much up there.. Could we see Israel invade to intervene? (I'm not saying in the whole Syrian conflict just in the area that is next to the Golan Heights)
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Pellegrine
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:12 am

I'm feeling a tad gleeful about this.

Israel needs to get it together and play nice in the sandbox. The only thing that makes them realize this is pain in the equivalency that they deal out to the Palestinians.

Just because your big, bad, and bold doesn't mean you deserve the right to live in peace.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
NAV20
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 6:23 am

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
I assume that the Israeli population are mature enough to see through this blatant election engineering.

All the signs so far are, thediplomat, that if anything Netanyahu has profited by the attack. I think we have to face the fact that more than half of the Israeli voting public are in favour of frequent 'Gaza-bashing.'

"The cynical view that the two men's decision to suddenly escalate the warfare in Gaza is connected to their political considerations is not unwarranted. Barak especially will be eager to demonstrate to Israeli voters that they still need his steady hands on the security reins - so they had better make sure that his party, Atzmaut, crosses the electoral threshold on January 22. He made sure during their brief joint statement on television tonight to wear his combat gear, a severe black leather jacket.

"Netanyahu has less need of a warlord demonstration since he is all but ensured a third term, but unless something goes spectacularly wrong he also stands to gain. At the very least, none of his rivals will be able to attack over the next few days."


http://www.haaretz.com/news/israeli-...-hurricane-jabari.premium-1.477891

The 'unknown factor' is that Egypt recently (by means of a popular vote) elected a prime minister with Islamist leanings. Up to now Egypt has always provided humanitarian aid and contact with the outside world to the unfortunate Gazans, but has sought also to maintain diplomatic contact with Israel. That may well change soon:-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...-11e2-a30e-5ca76eeec857_story.html

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
Nav20, do you think he's got the balls (Bibi) to take this to the Iranians, that should be interesting indeed. ??????

Israel has nukes and has up to now received 100% political and military support from the USA. In those circumstances, much as I expect Iran to go on 'disapproving' of Israel's behaviour, there is no way it can even think about any direct (i.e. military) involvement over Gaza or any other part of what is left of Palestine. The 'Gaza Strip,' as it used to be called, is little more than a prison camp, the West Bank and East Jerusalem are in much the same situation; and even Palestinians living in 'Israel proper' don't have anything like equal rights.

As far as I'm concerned the only solution to the problem is for Israel to end all forms of religious discrimination and work towards the federation of the whole of what we used to call 'Palestine' into a single federated state, with equal rights for all.

But I'll let everyone know if that ever looks like happening. There'll be sure signs of it. For a start, I'm sure I'll see pigs flying over Melbourne the moment Israel (and the USA) ever even LOOK like getting sensible about this bloody (I use the word advisedly) mess.......

[Edited 2012-11-15 22:28:37]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:32 am

Quoting swissy (Reply 3):
How true... still cant believe the bs is going on... man we are n 2012!!

yes, but only one of the two lives in the 21st century.
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raffik
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:57 am

Quoting flanker (Reply 4):

If the shelling continues, yes there will be war again.

That goes for both sides, Flanker.

Quoting thediplomat (Reply 8):
Quoting flanker (Reply 4):
Here are two articles to go along with this thread..

Hardly unbiased sources?

Lol- I had to chuckle. It was completely biased drivel.

Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas? As soon as I heard it on the radio I KNEW that this would incite some reaction. You can't go around assassinating members of the Palestinian government (who were elected) without upsetting what was already a very fragile peace.

I can not foresee any peace between Israel and Palestinian- certainly not in my life time, and I'm only 30.
Since the 1940s the two entities have been at war and since then, nothing has changed. Actually, things have improved for the state of Israel but for Palestinians, they haven't had a very nice existence. This in turn creates upset, especially with the Israeli settlements mushrooming on what even Israel deemed as Palestinian land. And the Israeli's don't stop the settlements. You know, Israel is not a small country- there is room to build your camp elsewhere.
Why incite upset by illegally setting up home on someone else's land? It's like history repeating itself!
- Alec
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:12 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 14):
'Gaza-bashing.'

Seriously??!!!

Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

Any other country would have considered that an Act of War long ago.

I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:46 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Over 700 rockets fired into Israel to date this year, FROM GAZA, close to 300 of them yesterday!!!!!!!!

The amount of illegal settlements built by Palestinians in 2012: 0.
The amount of illegal settlements built by Israelis in 2012? You don't need me to quote the exact numbers or?

The amount of target killings of Israeli political figures commited by Palestinians in 2012: 0.
The amount of target killings of Palestinian political figures commited by Israelis in 2012? ....

Goes both ways. No matter how biased we all are (and we all carry some bias with us) - the picture is clear - both sides are guilty for the situation, and both sides are continuing the path towards peace (mhm) carrying giant clubs in their hands.

Read a nice article in the JPost today - 5 out of the last 7 general elections in Israel were preceded by military action (either Gaza, Syria or Lebanon).

I can not assess the truthfulness of this article: http://www.timesofisrael.com/jabari-...israeli-who-negotiated-with-hamas/ but if true it could provide some food for thought.

D.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:50 am

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas?

No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 10:51 am

Part of this has to do with Obama being re-elected as well.

Netanyahu has to show a big d*** in his hand to counteract the perceived notion that US Democrats are softer on Arab aggression than Republican hard-liners are.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:04 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.

why did you just change what you originally wrote ?

That the Palestinians were basically from the dark ages ?

And now you come out with this drivel

Try " Israeli Land grabs" and see if that rinds any bells for ya !
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:17 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
That the Palestinians were basically from the dark ages ?

not generalizing the Palestinians, but the Hamas terrorists certainly are, like any other religion driven terrorists.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 21):
Try " Israeli Land grabs" and see if that rinds any bells for ya !

Israel gave back all of the Sinai, they moved out of Gaza completely. I wish Hamas would learm that peaceful co-existance would be far better for Gaza, especially for the people there, but that would ruin their business case.
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raffik
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:18 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
I hope Israel does the same thing the King of Jordan did with them back in 1970 and wipes them out! They deserve it!

That is actually quite an evil thing to say. Do you mean wipe the Palestinian nation out ? Like Hiter did to the Jews in the 1940s? Or wipe out a nationally elected government which was elected in a democratic process? I think you should shed some light on that, because if you do mean wipe out a whole nation of people, you are a sick man indeed.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 17):
Push them into Egypt. They deserve it. And take back Gaza and NEVER give it up again! They deserve it.

Again, I am really shocked at your aggression here. You do realise that pre 1940s this was Palestinian land?
That Israel didn't actually really exist? It has been the Israeli's who have stolen Palestinian land, not the other way round.
Why do you have so much hatred here? I will tell you what the Palestinians "deserve"- they deserve a piece of land that is their's. Just imagine is the Cubans came to your town armed with guns and forced you into Canada and said, right, we now declare this our new home. And robbed your homes and shops and made you homeless. Finally relenting, they give you a quarter of your town back to live in but then bombed your power stations and your airport and destroyed any chance of an economy. Then these Cubans decided that it wasn't enough, they actually started building their homes on your part of town until you were left with not much. And when somebody resists and tries to fight back, they bulldoze your homes, with your kids inside and your wife etc. And then fire massive missiles into your part of town. And you are stuck. No one comes to help.

Quoting pellegrine (Reply 20):
perceived notion that US Democrats are softer on Arab aggression

But why do they not care about Israeli aggression directed towards Arabs (i.e the Palestinians or the Lebanese)?
- Alec
 
damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:22 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
No, there was first a missile attack from Gaza to Israel. The Palestinians in Gaza always request this, they send invitations and then complain that Israel fires back. Any country n the world would do that.

Technically these sorts of tit-for-tat exchanges are hard to explain or determine who started them - since in this case "who started it" depends on how far back you look. If you look a week back then it was Hamas who started it - if you look two weeks back then it was Israel who started it - so a definite answer is very hard to find.

Generally speaking this latest clash started between Nov 5th and Nov 8th. On Nov 5th a Palestinian was shot on the Palestinian side of the fence on the border of Gaza and Israel (I've heard reports labelling him having learning difficulties, but with Hamas' PR I wouldn't necessarily believe it). Also on that day an IED exploded injuring 4 Israeli soldiers. On Nov 8th IDF soldiers entered the Gaza Strip after finding several bomb near the border fence - this ultimately resulted in the death of a 13 year old (read also that he might've been 12 years old). Well from Nov 9th on Palestinians stepped up the rocket attacks (also attacking an IDF vehicle on the Israeli side and injuring 4 soldiers (1 critically IIRC)) and the rest is known. Hard to call who started it unless you specify the cutoff date for the "started it" determination.

D.
 
damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:25 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 22):
Israel gave back all of the Sinai, they moved out of Gaza completely. I wish Hamas would learm that peaceful co-existance would be far better for Gaza, especially for the people there, but that would ruin their business case.

But how do you give back someone something if it wasn't yours in the first place?

I'll join your wish and also add that Israel needs to learn the same - peaceful coexistence and striving for an honest dialogue for peace. Which would benefit both normal Israelis and Palestinians. As it is at the moment only the hawks on both sides are benefitting.

D.
 
damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:28 am

Quoting pellegrine (Reply 20):
Part of this has to do with Obama being re-elected as well.

Didn't consider that but thinking about it, you may be right. This would have been a major issue before the US Presidentials elections.

D.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:35 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 25):
But how do you give back someone something if it wasn't yours in the first place?

This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Quoting damirc (Reply 25):
I'll join your wish and also add that Israel needs to learn the same - peaceful coexistence

That's what the majority of the Israelis, who live in a prosperous country and enjoy , unlike their neighbours, democracy, want as well.

But as the old proverb says, you cannot live in peace if your neighbour don't let you.

As long as it is Hamas doctrine to send the last Israeli into the Mediterranean sea they have to take that serious. The jewish people didn't take someone serious in the 1920s, the history is known.
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damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:50 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Well they've lived on it. There are deeds in Istanbul that proves some of their ownership you know. But even those deeds are invalidated by some courts in a land with a Magen Davd on it's flag. It does however stand in court that a dead person can sell his property to a group of settlers that then proceed to build on the said land.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
That's what the majority of the Israelis, who live in a prosperous country and enjoy , unlike their neighbours, democracy, want as well.

Well. Hard being prosperous when you live in a giant refugee camp (Gaza strip), are cut off from international trade and have every material allowed in rationed (if it is allowed in in the first place). Good luck being prosperous with those limitations.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
As long as it is Hamas doctrine to send the last Israeli into the Mediterranean sea they have to take that serious. The jewish people didn't take someone serious in the 1920s, the history is known.

PanHAM, I agree that Hamas is a negative influence on the Palestinians. I do agree with the fact that they've made, are making and will be making mistakes. But I also claim that Israel is not working towards peace (maybe to the uninformed public) but rather towards total annexation of Gaza and the West Bank. Now tell me - with that in mind, how do you suggest the Palestinians fight back to keep their land? Israeli courts do tend to be fair (with some weird decisions as stated in the first paragraph of my reply), but they take money and you need to be allowed to get into Israel (which I'm certain you're aware not all of Palestinians are) to reach said courts. And even if you are successful the IDF may declare the ground in question strategically important and you can forget it (and the settlers move in).

You need to understand these people are losing hope. And when hope is lost you do not chose your methods to fight back. I'm just reading a book about the uprising in Treblinka, and it's worth noting that the uprising happened only when all hope was lost, and when all of the Jews in Treblinka realized what their final destination is. You do fight back in what ever way possible once you lose all hope. This has been repeating itself countless times in human history.

D.
 
NAV20
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:53 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

Sorry, PanHAM, that's a crazy statement. Palestine and its cities have existed for over 2,000 years.

Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

A crowd of Europeans, mostly if not all people of the Jewish faith, took most of the place over by military force in the late 1940s, driving out the traditional occupants and taking their homes and land without compensation.

In essence, the Palestinians (who took no part in WW2) were dispossessed and either killed, or mercilessly driven out of their homes and ancestral lands, because of what the German Nazis did to the European Jews. And the Western Allies just 'let it happen'........

It was, and remains, a monstrous injustice.

[Edited 2012-11-16 04:03:21]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

But he was born Jewish   Which illustrates that there are people of three religions living in Israel and Palestine - 2000 years ago they were of only one faith, but then they've split apart and now they fight who owns the place ... slightly crazy.

D.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:10 pm

Quoting damirc (Reply 28):
Well. Hard being prosperous when you live in a giant refugee camp (Gaza strip), are cut off from international trade and have every material allowed in rationed (if it is allowed in in the first place). Good luck being prosperous with those limitations.

I can't hear this anymore. Sixty years and longer in a refugee camp? Who except some illiterate ....buys that crap?

What do you think Europe would be today if German "refugees" from the eastern provinces like Prussia, Silesia etc. would still live in refugee camps? Shooting missiles to Poland?

Don't you realize that these are manipulable masses in the hands of terror lords?

Israel is a fact and Palestinians have to accept that fact. They have to jump over that stick and accept reality. Would be good for them and the whole region. They could finally start participating in the wealth that is generated in Israel. No Palstinian with Israeli citizenship would trade that for Gaza or West Bank,

But as I said, the Hamas and other organisations would lose their business case and some people could not fill their private coffers anymore.

The average Palestinian has to understand that not Israel is his enemy but their own "politicians".
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NAV20
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting damirc (Reply 30):
Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
Come to that - Jesus Christ was a Palestinian........

But he was born Jewish

Good one, damirc.  

Only thing is, being Jewish is a religion, last I heard. Not in any sense a nationality?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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par13del
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:32 pm

Only thing I see resolved at this stage is the claim made months ago and debunked as laughlable by many that there were missiles in Gaza capable of reaching Tel Aviv, however, that is really not important at this point in time.

The issues are well known, the positions of both sides ane their supporters are well known, so not much I can add to the discourse.

Its hard when religion is a significant factor in the case to use a religious phrase, but my prayers are with all concerned.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:44 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 29):
because of what the German Nazis did to the European Jews.

And not just Germans but others in Poland, Lithuania, Croatia, etc.

After WW2 my mother worked with displaced persons, including many who were Jewish. Many could not return to where they can previously lived and could not stay where they were. The vast majority of those who wished to emigrate stated the USA as their first choice. Only a handful had any desire to go to Palestine. But by and large, even countries sympathetic to the plight of Jewish survivors imposed limits on immigration. Sure, they all had problems enough but it was the fact that they were either unable or unwilling to accept large scale Jewish migration that led many refugees to see Palestine as an option and even then the majority did not do so until after the creation of Israel.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
The average Palestinian has to understand that not Israel is his enemy but their own "politicians".

So why is it that in the West Bank, which is not ruled by Hamas, that the majority of the continuing dispossession of Palestinians is taking place. Even in the Negev, where most Israelis would rather not live, the people who have lived their for centuries are being cleared out, ostensibly to provide them with better education, blah, blah. Tell a Palestinian mother who sees her house being bulldozed in front of her children that Israel is her friend when they allow thugs to trample their olive trees while the IDF looks on and will only intervene to protect the "settlers".

Even the most right wing, pro-Israel newspapers in the West have carried reports on these happenings. But at least they are very generous. They will allow for a Two State solution in which all of the West Bank goes to Israel on the grounds of needing "defensible borders" and a Palestinian State is carved out of Jordan. In other words, they are not serious about wanting any two state solution. But a One State solution in which everyone is equal would spell the end of Israel. So what remains? The Gaza Ghetto, Iron Curtains and from there?

For the record, Hamas has on a number of occasions stated that they will agree to a settlement based on the 1967 borders (with some minor land swaps) but on condition that Palestinians have the right of return (something that Jews who haven't even been to Israel have) and that East Jerusalem be the capital of a Palestinian state. Israel has rejected both conditions out of hand.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 32):
Only thing is, being Jewish is a religion, last I heard. Not in any sense a nationality?

I think that you will find many who would disagree with that view, including non-religious Jews. Throughout history, at least in Europe, when Jews converted to Christianity they often continued to be viewed with suspicion as they were still considered as not really being "part of us". The nazis certainly based their hatred on notions of race, describing Jews as "Nichtarier" and "Untermenschen", and not as infidels. And the whole basis of Zionism rests on the identification of Jews as being a "people" and not as followers of a particular religion.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:35 pm

Does anyone really care any more, outside of Israel/Palestine? Would anyone in the US honestly lift a finger for either side after our experiences in other areas in the region?

Quoting par13del (Reply 33):
The issues are well known, the positions of both sides ane their supporters are well known, so not much I can add to the discourse.

   There's nothing new here. Neither side wants to back down, so have at it.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 3:48 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 35):
Does anyone really care any more, outside of Israel/Palestine?

Honestly, yes, millions of Americans care. It is my opinion that the issue is often one sided so Israel does not receive the criticism it often warrants. Plus there is the whole notion that Iran wants to / will nuke the US and Israel is our #1 ally to stop them


And I want to throw something out (that I am sure will get ignored,) NO ONE is defending the Palestinians launching rockets and killing civilians. If anyone condones that, please, tell me. What many are saying is Israel is not perfect, 2 wrongs don't make a right, they have a right to defend themselves but they're going about it the wrong way, Israel should be the better person, etc. There are a plethora of reasons.

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis. Really, does that sound like the truth, or do you think there is a more sensible explanation? If you said the former, well, I've got a tin foil hat for you...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
edka
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 4:12 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
And as per usual, our beloved PM Gillard and opposition leader Abbott have come out in total unquestioning support for Israel, yawn

along with many other western governments... you choose to support a terrorist group, thats your call.

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Wasn't this sparked because Israel assassinated a member of Hamas

no i wasn't. this round was sparked by the missile fired to the army jeep which was patrolling the border and then many misiles were fired into Israel. apparently the Israeli government sent a warning to Hamas, which was ignored, then followed Djabari assassination

Quoting raffik (Reply 16):
Actually, things have improved for the state of Israel but for Palestinians, they haven't had a very nice existence

and how much of this is Palestinians' own fault?

Quoting raffik (Reply 23):
You do realise that pre 1940s this was Palestinian land?
That Israel didn't actually really exist? It has been the Israeli's who have stolen Palestinian land, not the other way round.

there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

Quoting raffik (Reply 23):
I will tell you what the Palestinians "deserve"- they deserve a piece of land that is their's.

yes they do, but electing and supporting Hamas is not the way to go about it...






I am in the south of Israel as i type this, and i have been in and our of shelters for the last 48 hours. The sirens are constant and there are hundreds of rockets coming in the last couple of days. One exploded close enough to the building i was in for the walls to shake. There are over million people (excluding Tel Aviv area) that are in range of missile strikes... Any country would defend the lives of their citizens, and its only because of the shelters system here, there are not more civilian casualties.

right now i am struggling to find any sympathy for the Palestinians.
 
na
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:52 pm

Idiots beating at each other is the only thing that comes to my mind here. I´m tired of it. Will this go on forever and both sides will keep dragging the world into their conflict forever? After such a long time of unwise beating maybe the right idea is that the outside world turns its back finally to that local conflict if both sides are not becoming any wiser than testosterone-led adolesents.
 
damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 5:58 pm

Quoting EDKA (Reply 37):
there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

No, but there were people living there who owned the land that they lived on. They were disposessed and then displaced. History won't help any Palestinian or Israeli tonight when rockets keep on flying.

The map here: http://domino.un.org/maps/m0094.jpg

D.

[Edited 2012-11-16 10:08:33]
 
Acheron
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:24 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
It is my opinion that the issue is often one sided so Israel does not receive the criticism it often warrants.

Hard to do when any and all criticism is switfly neutralized with a "you sound like an antisemite".
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:59 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 27):
This kind of thinking is Kindergarten. It waqsn't property of the palestinians, who were nomads, either.

PanHam did you ever heard or knew of nomads issuing there own currency or coins?
http://attendingtheworld.wordpress.c.../04/10/currency-of-1927-palestine/
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:01 pm

Quoting na (Reply 39):
Idiots beating at each other is the only thing that comes to my mind here. I´m tired of it

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
Honestly, yes, millions of Americans care.

I don't think it moves the dial anymore with voters. The Republicans are the biggest supporters of Israel and they just got shellacked, and the Jewish voters are all Democrats . Go fig.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis.

Israel has done nothing to make the situation better. They just build more settlements and push people with nothing to lose farther, and sure enough, the same thing that happened last time happens again, and down the rabbit hole we go again.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
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casinterest
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:07 pm

Newsflash: Missiles and Bombs still hurt and kill people. Israel and Hamas do not play nice: Sun rises in the east and sets in the west. Same ol, Same ol.

What I am more concerned with is how and where the long range missiles that Hamas is using are coming from. I think Egypt and Iran are going to have some explaining to do.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):

Either that or the world is full of anti-Semites that are ok with rockets killing innocent Israelis.

Israel has done nothing to make the situation better. They just build more settlements and push people with nothing to lose farther, and sure enough, the same thing that happened last time happens again, and down the rabbit hole we go again.

Oh I know. I was just poking fun at the fact that if you somewhat disagree with Israel, that makes you a Nazi or something
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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pvjin
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:30 pm

Yeah yeah, I wonder if they will ever manage to make peace. Everything around there would be so much easier if Jerusalem wasn't so important to three major religions or alternatively if humans weren't so incredibly stupid.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
damirc
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:41 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 31):
I can't hear this anymore. Sixty years and longer in a refugee camp? Who except some illiterate ....buys that crap?

Didn't actually see this before - sorry, illiterate? Refugee camps - as in camps that are housing people that were made refugees on their own land. Would you call that incorrect?

D.
 
BMI727
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 43):
I don't think it moves the dial anymore with voters. The Republicans are the biggest supporters of Israel and they just got shellacked, and the Jewish voters are all Democrats . Go fig.

It's all perfectly explainable. The American support from Israel has little to do with the Jewish vote or the disproportionately large influence of Jewish Americans on society, business, and politics. It's all the religious right. The support comes from the evangelical Christians who believe that the Jews need to be restored to the Holy Land for Jesus to return. Those are the people rooting for Israel, most Jewish people outside of the right wingers, quite a few of whom probably emigrated anyway, are much more aware of the situation than what the American media provides and do not practice unconditional support for the Israelis.

At this point, I think that the political climate is such that the Israeli government can do whatever they wish with the Palestinians, up to and including extermination, without meaningful consequences and retribution from the international community and have the American right waving pom-poms the whole way.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Fri Nov 16, 2012 9:07 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 48):
It's all the religious right

I definitely understand that, but they just had their religious arse handed to them in this election, and it only gets worse for them from here on out. I just wonder who is really going to stick their neck out for either side this time. They've become like Lindsay Lohan--sure the first time we were all worried what happened to this cute young actress, but now we don't even flinch when she drives into a pole 
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
NAV20
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RE: Israel: A Huge War Beginning Just Now?

Sat Nov 17, 2012 1:38 am

Quoting EDKA (Reply 37):
there was no country called Palestine, it was just piece of land without any borders

Not 'getting at you,' EDKA, but I find that statement fascinating. I see that you're relatively young, and you are staying in, or live in, Israel. If you really have been 'indoctrinated' into a belief that no place called 'Palestine' ever existed, that explains a lot. Particularly why young Jewish people (who I'm sure are normally no more bloodthirsty than the young people of other religions) often seem so ready to kill Palestinians; they apparently think of the Palestinians as 'interlopers' in a place that, in their minds, belongs to the Jews.

Trying to keep it simple - if you read up in the Old Testament about the Jews fleeing from Egypt to what is now called Israel (from childhood, I've always tended to call it the Holy Land), you'll find that one of the peoples they had to fight and largely drive out, as soon as they arrived in the area, were the 'Philistines.' If you then venture into the New Testament, you'll find that at the time of Christ's execution (in about 33AD., as far as anyone knows) the area was under Roman rule, and they called their colony 'Philistia.' Come to that, any etymologist will tell you that 'Jerusalem' is basically an Arabic word, not a Hebrew one; as, indeed, are most of the town names in what is currently 'Israel.' Moving on to modern times, 'Palestine' at the time of the First World War was a Turkish colony; and after that war, it was occupied by the British under a League of Nations mandate - and they unhesitatingly referred to it throughout that occupation as 'Palestine,' right up to their withdrawal in 1948.

As far as I can see, therefore, the whole of what is now called 'Israel,' from Biblical times right up to the present day, most definitely was, and arguably still IS, 'a country called Palestine'; and it was, and still is, being lived in by people from at least three religions - Muslim, Jewish, and Christian (put them in whatever order you like).

And my personal view is that the only thing that will sort the place out, and eventually end the conflict, will be the adoption of the system of government followed by most if not all civilised countries worldwide; freedom of religion and a secular, democratic government that ensures equal rights for all, regardless of which particular religion they happen to profess and follow.

[Edited 2012-11-16 17:59:56]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
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