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DocLightning
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Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:18 am

About three years ago, I came to Detroit, where I was born and raised, to give a presentation on my field of expertise at a symposium for the public. During that trip in Autumn 2009, I was shocked and appalled to see the state of the city and its surrounds. It seemed as if there was an air of death and decay everywhere I looked.

At age 19, when I left, I knew that Detroit was a decrepit and dying metro area, but I had no idea how bad it would get. In 2008, when the bottom fell out of the local economy and the auto industry, the city was devastated. I had come back to visit in the aftermath of that catastrophic event to a husk of a city. People wore dark clothes. Businesses were boarded up. Restaurants and bars were empty. It was so sad to see this place that had hit rock bottom. Having said that, once you've hit rock bottom, there's only one direction to go.

I came back this time because my mom's home sold after five years on the market and it was time to empty it out. I have known from the initial planning of this trip that it may well be my last time here. I leave tomorrow morning.

The entire city seems different than three years ago. People are dressed well. Bars and restaurants are full of young people who seem to have money to spend. Heads are held high. New stores are opening in vacant stalls in strip malls. There are "Help Wanted" signs up. Houses appear maintained and the streets (at least in the suburbs) are clean. The streets are full of shiny new cars made by American manufacturers. There is even some construction.

Living where I live in SF, we barely felt the recession and so the recovery has similarly been hard to detect. But when I compare the Detroit Metro Area in 2009 vs. the Detroit Metro Area in 2012, the recovery is plain to see. Detroit is investing in technology. She is diversifying her economy, rather than putting all her eggs in one basket. Enormous houses in nice neighborhoods can be had for next to nothing and young professionals are snapping them up.

What do you think, locals? Are things looking up? What changes do you see coming? I see some slow integration of mass transit, helping to improve density and reduce small (SE Michigan rapid rail. Possible Detroit-Chicago HSR proposal.). I see various high-tech and service industries being attracted to the area by low property prices and costs of living. I'm not sure that anyone living today will see Detroit reach the heights it did in the 1950's and 1960's, but from where I'm standing, Detroit is rising.

And that makes me glad.  
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
QFA380
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 5:42 am

The brilliance of market corrections.

When prices for houses are extraordinarily low, labour costs are low and businesses move in, I can imagine a great deal of people who can telecommute would be attracted to Detroit. Econ101; after a shock the economy will return back to equilibrium. The cheap housing looks like it'll be around for a while, just having a look at trulia, it's phenomenal what you can get in Detroit for tiny sums, enormous mansions a few miles from the city for the price of a small apartment in most other big cities in the world.
 
Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:22 am

I hope you're correct about Detroit but I also hope my favorite hole-in-the-wall joints remain as well.
Detroit has lots of Greenspace, affordable housing, government funding for public schools, heavily unionized and those big evil companies are no longer spewing out carbon like they were 50 years ago.
Sounds like a utopia right?

I still like Detroit and I had a great time there will Falstaff a few years ago.
Here is my trip report about the place.


Detroit Rock City (SFO-PHL-DTW)
www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/trip_reports/read.main/148353/


I like L.J.'s Lounge.  
...
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/Detroit2009054.jpg


Here is a nice fixer-upper in Brush Park.

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj96/Rush8track/Detroit51.jpg
Bring back the Concorde
 
Geezer
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:35 am

You could probably get a great "deal" on a mansion out in the jungle too, if any become vacant there; the problem is, not that many people want to live in a jungle !


On the other hand, if they ever build that crazy new suspension bridge across the Detroit River, I'll definitely have to drive up and take some pictures of it.


Michigan has a lot more problems than just Detroit; Flint looks like Somalia. ( I'm sure glad I didn't have to work in Pontiac very long !)

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:43 am

I hope the city does rebound. When it all fell apart in 2008 it was a sad time. But hopefully with GM and Ford rebounding they can get people employed again and the city booming. Though from my understanding they have to start cleaning up the streets a bit. Though if people have jobs I'm sure that would help enormously.
Blue
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:08 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 4):
When it all fell apart in 2008

What on earth are you talking about?
The city started falling apart after the 1967 riots.
Some areas were rotting even before then. The city's peak population was in 1950. That's 62 years ago.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 3):
Michigan has a lot more problems than just Detroit; Flint looks like Somalia. ( I'm sure glad I didn't have to work in Pontiac very long !)

Dearborn has it's serious issues too. The place looks like Bagdad. Then there is Inkster which is also another craphole.

[Edited 2012-11-18 03:13:59]
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:35 pm

Quoting Geezer (Reply 3):
Michigan has a lot more problems than just Detroit; Flint looks like Somalia. ( I'm sure glad I didn't have to work in Pontiac very long !)

It's true, and I'm not sure if Flint will ever recover from being a ghost town in our lifetimes. Whatever the new Detroit is going to be, it's not going to be a massive industrial center again because the accidents of history that made it that the first time aren't set up to play out the same way again.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
columba
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:54 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
And that makes me glad.  

Me, too, my brother and his family lived in Ann Arbor for awhile, great little town been there a couple of times and loved it, Detroit I found a very lovely and sad place at the same time. There were tons of abandoned public buildings that still had a lot of grace and majesty and hopefully could be filled with life someday soon.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 2:02 pm

Doc, there are many positive changes happening in the area. I think the Sate and local governments have finally realized that diversification is the key to success. Home values in the area continue to climb and in my area of Northville-Novi there are virtually no houses to be had. The same can be said for the North Woodward ave corridor. The greatest changes though are seen in Downtown Detroit. New projects are being announced on a weekly basis. Dan Gilbert's vision of what Detroit can be are starting to take hold. Apartment occupancy rates are near 100%. The recently rehabbed Broderick tower opened last week to 100% occupancy. The Madison, next to the Broderick, is set to reopen in 2013 and is already near capacity. Chrysler has moved some employees to the Dime building which was renamed "Chrysler Place", in their honor. Companies continue to more downtown which is starting to fill the commercial space. The largest Buffalo wild wings in the country opens next month in the Greektown area. The Grand Prix is back on Belle Isle. The Detroit Historical museum reopened last night after a year long remodel. Yes, there are many encouraging signs of progress happening in the area,however there is a long way to go. Downtown Detroit is pretty safe, but the neighborhoods of Detroit are a whole other story. Being in my late 50's and knowing what Detroit and the area once was, I hope to see this area return to its former glory before I die. I'm posting a few links that show some of the positive things going on and some of the not so good that needs to change. Sorry to hear you may never return so a couple of the links will help you keep informed if you so desire.


The Broderick Click the veiws section and then North South East or West
http://www.brodericktower.com/

Some of the good and bad
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Detroi...com/109210839112636?ref=ts&fref=ts

Alot of the good and bad
http://www.detroityes.com/mb/atdasd_headlines.php

Sorry Fly but your fixer-upper in Brush Park was torn down last week but this one made it
http://www.detroitnews.com/article/2...odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE

Some history on the buildings of Detroit
http://www.historicdetroit.org/buildings/
 
Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 3:24 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
my brother and his family lived in Ann Arbor for awhile, great little town been there a couple of times


I visited there. Nice town but is only a college town.

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
loved it, Detroit I found a very lovely and sad place at the same time.


My thoughts exactly.

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
There were tons of abandoned public buildings that still had a lot of grace and majesty and hopefully could be filled with life someday soon.



I hope the railway building stays put and is refurbished. That is a gorgeous building.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 8):
Sorry Fly but your fixer-upper in Brush Park was torn down last week but this one made it


Wow, sorry to hear about that. Those homes are over 100 years old.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 8):
Being in my late 50's and knowing what Detroit and the area once was,


Would like to hear some of your stories.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 8):
Northville-Novi


How is the Wixom area now?
Bring back the Concorde
 
dtw9
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 4:44 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
How is the Wixom area now?



You would be hard pressed to find a decent house from Novi-Northville all the way out to Brighton. The housing stock is pretty thin right now in these areas,the foreclosure stock is gone.Ford Wixom plant started coming down a month ago. North Woodward real estate from Royal Oak to Bloomfield Hills is also on fire. And who would have ever thought, but to get something in Downtown Detroit means going on a waiting list. Hundreds of Engineering jobs are just begging to be filled. Chrysler just announced 1250 new assembly jobs spread over three plants starting immediately. Then there's companies like this helping to revitalize Detroit http://semichiganstartup.com/companies/detroitventurepartners.aspx Next up for Dan Gilbert,Roger Penske and a few others is this http://www.m-1rail.com/about/. As I said before, theres a lot of great things starting to happen, but we still have a long way to go
 
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pu
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RE: Detroit Rising

Sun Nov 18, 2012 6:06 pm

I gave a presentation at GM in 2008 and stayed at the tall Marriott in their complex. The drive from the airport was an eye-opener, but when me and my boss asked the hotel staff for a place we could walk to for drinks and dinner, they said "no way" and assigned us a junior bellboy to escort us in his car, and I think we ended up over by the casino (?)


Every country has its problems, and bigger countries have bigger problems. I find it hard to believe that the majority of Americans would choose to fix other countries (with aid or war) if the majority of Americans could see Detroit first hand.

Also, much like a self-deceptive person is never effective, I don't think America can be effective overseas while it is dishonest with itself (or deliberately ignorant) about the state of affairs on the home front: it just doesn't work. Places that have been VERY down but later recover can be interesting, so good luck to Detroit!




Pu
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:07 am

I went back to the house for the last time this morning. The "SOLD" sign is now up. I stood in my room and soaked in the view over the lake where the geese and swans chase each-other. I looked into my bathroom mirror where I watched myself grow from age 3 to 19 and I saw a man looking back at me. I'm proud of him and who he became.

I paced every empty room in that house and took the memories, but not photos. The nostalgia came, but perhaps not as strongly as I expected. Perhaps it's because, even as a kid, I never quite felt at home in Detroit. I then walked out the front door (I usually would have used the side) and closed it behind me. My last tie to Southeastern Michigan was cut.

On Friday, we got confirmation from the agents and lenders: we are officially home-owners on a new house in Oakland. We move in six days (he says calmly). My family, my friends, and my career are all in the Bay Area. My present and future are here. This is my home now. I've never felt more at home in any other place.

About two hours later, N3751B, a DL 738 climbed off DTW's 22R and turned right. As the aircraft climbed into the west, I found myself moving in my own direction: forward.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
BMI727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:10 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
On Friday, we got confirmation from the agents and lenders: we are officially home-owners on a new house in Oakland.

You left Detroit for Oakland!? You better stop upgrading before you end up with a nice McMansion in Mogadishu.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:49 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
You left Detroit for Oakland!? You better stop upgrading before you end up with a nice McMansion in Mogadishu.

Been to Oakland lately?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
BMI727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:57 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Been to Oakland lately?

Nope. There are more convenient places to get shot at.   
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:00 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Nope. There are more convenient places to get shot at.

It's a good place to invest. It, like Detroit, is rising.

Unlike Detroit, Oakland has a very positive influence very close-by.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
StuckInCA
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:54 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
It's a good place to invest. It, like Detroit, is rising.

Unlike Detroit, Oakland has a very positive influence very close-by.

While parts of Oakland are loathsome, other parts are fantastic.

I enjoyed your reflections on your childhood home. Congratulations on the new house and the positive outook!

My parents still live in my childhood home in a town which has changed for the worse since I left. I find it hard to go back.
 
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tb727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:13 am

I live in Ann Arbor but over the last year or so I have been heading into Detroit a lot more than in the past. Back in September I drove around through the burned out and abandoned neighborhoods, around Belle Isle, hit downtown, sat in front of the train station and found myself at the corner of Michigan and Trumbull but it wasn't like the last time I was there, only the flagpole and infield remain. I took a lot of pictures. A lot of what I saw was humbling to me, it is amazing to see what has become of what was such a majestic city. There is a buzz though, something is different about it. There is a mysterious draw to it for me and I will continue to go down there to find things to do. Of course the waffle fries with Hoffman's cheddar and smoked chicken wings at Slows BBQ might be part of my urge to go down there...

I fly all over the continent and see a lot of cities in the process but it's always nice coming home to the Motor City. Detroit has a long way to go but I think it's at least bottomed out and is slowly heading in the right direction.
Too lazy to work, too scared to steal!
 
Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:17 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
Ford Wixom plant started coming down a month ago.

Oh no! Why?
Most of my favorite cars were made there. I thought Ford was going to use that facility as their new 'Green-tec' research facility.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
Bloomfield Hills is also on fire.

I like that area.

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
Hundreds of Engineering jobs are just begging to be filled. Chrysler just announced 1250 new assembly jobs spread over three plants starting immediately.

That's great news!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 13):
You left Detroit for Oakland!? You better stop upgrading before you end up with a nice McMansion in Mogadishu.

  

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Nope. There are more convenient places to get shot at.

     

DocLightning is hard! Don't mess with him because he is from Detroit.   
Parts of Oakland is coming up.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BMI727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:26 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
I thought Ford was going to use that facility as their new 'Green-tec' research facility.

They might just mean letting weeds grow over everything.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
Parts of Oakland is coming up.

The East Bay is home to Tony LaRussa along with Mr. Bubb Rubb and one of the worst automotive fads ever. Also the Raiders and Raiders' fans. So I think it's best to take MC Hammer's advice and not touch that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dRWgVo0FHE
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:32 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The East Bay is home to Tony LaRussa along with Mr. Bubb Rubb and one of the worst automotive fads ever. Also the Raiders and Raiders' fans. So I think it's best to take MC Hammer's advice and not touch that.

"Gentrification."
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
itsjustme
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:36 am

Quoting dtw9 (Reply 10):
North Woodward real estate from Royal Oak to Bloomfield Hills is also on fire

I was grew up in Royal Oak and still own a home there. The best thing to happen to Royal Oak (other than me living there of course    ) was when I-696 between I-75 and Telegraph was finally completed. Royal Oak took off after that and the property values skyrocketed. There are now lofts in the downtown area that go for $250K. Not bad for a city that, at one time was the "Mayberry" of SE Michigan.

I am proud to say I patrolled the streets of Detroit for many years of my LE career prior to moving to Southern CA (just got tired of the shitty MI weather, aside from Fall of course). Coleman Young was good and bad for the city but what Kwame did is unforgivable (not to mention criminal). And now the PD is having a hard time finding a Chief and command officers who can keep their johnson's in their drawers. Thanks to them, the taxpayers will, once again have to get out their checkbooks once all the sexual harassment suits are settled. They're rumors that Councilman Gary Brown may be the next Chief. A little background on Gary; he is one of the first Kwamme whistle blowers and was promptly fired for it. That turned out to be costly for the city as he netted over $8 million in a whistle blower lawsuit. If that happens, and Gary does get the nod for chief, it'll be bitter-sweet. He's one of, if not the only council member who has a lick of sense.

I go back and visit a few times a year and always make a point to hit Greek Town (actually, it's Greek Street) and depending on the time of year I take in either a Tigers or a Wings game (how 'bout those Tigers this year, eh Doc?). And a visit to Greenfield Village in neighboring Dearborn is always a must. Time permitting, I hook up with a buddy or two who are still with DPD and ride a tour with them. Some things haven't changed but, as Doc has correctly pointed out, the City is definitely on a road to recovery. It was too bad Detroit 187 didn't survive but, truth be told, the show's title alone didn't do much for the city's reputation. Speaking of "187", I had the opportunity to meet Michael Imperioli during one of my trips back and he is genuinely a nice guy. When he learned I was a former Detroit cop, he insisted on taking me to dinner at a restaurant of my choice. That was an easy decision to make and we had a nice dinner and some excellent conversation at Mario's at 2nd and Willis. Growing up with a first generation Italian for a dad, Mario's was the only Italian restaurant he said that came anywhere close to the meals his dad would make in the old country.

Now, if only the NHL and the Player's Association will pull their heads out of their greedy asses so I can take in a game at The Joe when I go back in March!
 
Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:42 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The East Bay is home to Tony LaRussa along with Mr. Bubb Rubb and one of the worst automotive fads ever. Also the Raiders and Raiders' fans. So I think it's best to take MC Hammer's advice and not touch that.

"Gentrification."

Today in Oakland, you can buy an arugula at a Whole Foods -yet still walk across the street and buy a 40oz of Steel Reserve and grape flavored MD 20/20.
Bring back the Concorde
 
BMI727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:56 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
"Gentrification."

Sometimes it don't work so hot.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 22):
Not bad for a city that, at one time was the "Mayberry" of SE Michigan.

Is that "Mayberry" as in being a nice, quiet place to live with a small town feel? Or is that "Mayberry" as in not having any black people?

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 22):
It was too bad Detroit 187 didn't survive but, truth be told, the show's title alone didn't do much for the city's reputation.

Isn't "187" only murder in California? It's like showing Rescue 911 in countries where 911 isn't the emergency number or Canadians "taking the fifth," despite their fifth amendment being something about building a bridge.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
itsjustme
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:16 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Is that "Mayberry" as in being a nice, quiet place to live with a small town feel? Or is that "Mayberry" as in not having any black people?

Not sure how to take this question but my answer is, a nice quiet place to live with a small town feel.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Isn't "187" only murder in California? It's like showing Rescue 911 in countries where 911 isn't the emergency number or Canadians "taking the fifth," despite their fifth amendment being something about building a bridge.

Technically speaking, 187 might only be the P.C. for murder in California (sorry, I'm not up on the penal codes of all 50 states) but I think I am correct in assuming that when someone hears or sees "187" in the title of a cop show, they associate it with murder.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:34 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
Sometimes it don't work so hot.

And in a place like Oakland, it works beautifully. Outrageous housing prices in the "upscale" markets drives up housing prices in lower-income areas, raising the income.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
BMI727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:48 am

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 25):
Technically speaking, 187 might only be the P.C. for murder in California (sorry, I'm not up on the penal codes of all 50 states)

Upon further review, it appears that murder is something else in Michigan. Whatever 187 actually is probably isn't more interesting than homicide.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
And in a place like Oakland, it works beautifully. Outrageous housing prices in the "upscale" markets drives up housing prices in lower-income areas, raising the income.

St. Louis has been trying it for a while and it seems to not work. The suburbs are just too pleasant.

At least in Oakland Bubb Rubb will save you the trouble of getting an alarm clock. Oakland is probably doomed to being the Gary of the Bay Area.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:58 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 26):
Outrageous housing prices in the "upscale" markets drives up housing prices in lower-income areas, raising the income.

Higher prices of homes do not raise income levels. It just attracts wealthier people that already have money.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:42 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
St. Louis has been trying it for a while and it seems to not work. The suburbs are just too pleasant.

OK. I'm getting tired of it. You've never been to Oakland and yet you're an expert. Seriously, know when not to post, dude. How about you read, rather than writing and maybe you might learn a thing or two?

Unlike St. Louis, Oakland is right next San Francisco and is in the Bay Area, which includes Silicon Valley, Stanford, and Berkeley. The tech industry is booming right now, which means that there will be a lot of young professionals entering the housing market. As this occurs, much as in Detroit right now, the lower-income, more run-down areas tend to get bought out by development firms that spruce up, or "flip" the houses and rehabilitate entire neighborhoods. They can sell these houses at ~300% of the purchase price. Right now the real estate market in Oakland is such that you can expect to bid at least 10% over the asking price on a given house. In other words, it's a seller's market.

Gentrification is the name of the game in the SF Bay Area. Areas that used to be very run-down and dangerous, such as the Mission District and East Palo Alto are now seeing rapid rises in property values and massive demographic shifts away from low-income minority residents to young professionals. Gentrification only works in periods of local economic expansion. St. Louis is primarily built around agriculture, which is a relatively stable industry in the long term (mouths need to be fed; there isn't a huge amount of long-term growth in agriculture, but there is long-term stability). Because of this, St. Louis has a very poor chance of being able to gentrify anything.

The flipside of gentrification is that while it is locally a boon, it causes problems because lower-income working poor tend to get pushed to the outskirts and this makes it more difficult for them to commute to their jobs.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 28):
Higher prices of homes do not raise income levels. It just attracts wealthier people that already have money.

That's what I mean. It raises the median income level by replacing low-income people with high-income people.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
BMI727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:09 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
You've never been to Oakland and yet you're an expert.

I've been there, several years ago. Never felt the need to go back. The areas north and south of San Francisco are much nicer. I actually rather like San Franciso, despite the hippies and/or homeless. The hippies that retired and got jobs make it a nice place to be. But, considering the costs and taxes, I'd put it in the same category as a lot of Europe in that it's a place I like to visit but would probably hate to live in.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
How about you read, rather than writing and maybe you might learn a thing or two?

And miss the chance to take a cheap shot at Oakland? Not a chance.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
Because of this, St. Louis has a very poor chance of being able to gentrify anything.

Nobody told the people who are continually trying to do it. Of course it looks damn good if you're coming from East St. Louis.   

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
The flipside of gentrification is that while it is locally a boon, it causes problems because lower-income working poor tend to get pushed to the outskirts and this makes it more difficult for them to commute to their jobs.

That tends to cause less of a problem than things like mixed income housing or rent controls. And there's the underlying idea of mixed income housing that poor people should probably find offensive. At least, I don't think I'd need wealthier people to be role models.

Either way I'd never want to live in a refurbished factory in freshly rehabilitated ghetto. It's much nicer where there are Walmarts, freeways, and space for everyone's Hummer.
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Airstud
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting columba (Reply 7):
Detroit I found a very lovely and sad place at the same time. There were tons of abandoned public buildings that still had a lot of grace and majesty and hopefully could be filled with life someday soon.

Yeah that's always been why Detroit's story troubles me so. I've never been there (outside of the DTW terminal anyway) but I've always heard about its awesome Art Deco archimatecture and have liked a lot of the photos I've seen, especially of the Guardian Building.

I also kinda want to see the Dossin Great Lakes Museum out on Belle Isle.

At the same time, Detroit's modern reputation being what it is, even I, a die-hard travel fan, can't see myself taking a leisure trip to ...ummm... Detroit.   

Maybe I'll end up driving through on the way to Hamilton, Ontario or someplace...
Pancakes are delicious.
 
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mad99
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:17 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
They can sell these houses at ~300%

I have a friend who lives in Oakland, near a lake. She's bought and sold a few homes in this area and has done vary well for herself. From her house you can take the metro into san fran city centre and if i remember it only takes about 20-30 min.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:17 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
OK. I'm getting tired of it. You've never been to Oakland and yet you're an expert. Seriously, know when not to post, dude. How about you read, rather than writing and maybe you might learn a thing or two?

AMEN.         

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):

Either way I'd never want to live in a refurbished factory in freshly rehabilitated ghetto. It's much nicer where there are Walmarts, freeways, and space for everyone's Hummer.

Great. Enjoy Modesto.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):

At least in Oakland Bubb Rubb will save you the trouble of getting an alarm clock. Oakland is probably doomed to being the Gary of the Bay Area.

That's such a ridiculous comparison it hardly merits discussion. Oakland is a big city. It has 400,000 people and a large city limits extending from way up to Berkeley and down to the airport. It's own airport, and sports teams, etc etc. It's big and diverse. It's like Los Angeles in that regard, it contains all types. Some parts are crap, some parts are decent/up and coming with nice old bungalows, and some parts are rich and beautiful and always have been. And i'd bet you'd give your left nut to live in some neighborhoods like Montclair and you'd still have an Oakland address. You're trying to base all these comments on handy caricature in your mind but its become very obvious you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

Congrats on the new digs, Doc.
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Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:15 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):

Sorry BMI727 but I have to disagree with you on this one.
DocLightning is correct on this one. Oakland has some magnificent areas and believe it or not, the neighborhood I grew up in Gary, Indiana (Miller Beach) has homes going for more than $300,000.
Oakland is not at all the craphole you're making it out to be. There are parts that are crap and their downtown is a joke but areas such as Oakland Hills, Rockridge and Montclair are beautiful with many well maintained old homes, lots of trees with great views of the Bay Area.
Now if you're just hanging out on the hoe-stroll near the Edgewater motel then yes, the place is a dump.

The Gary of the Bay Area would be Richmond, California (not to be confused with the district in San Francisco)

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 33):
Great. Enjoy Modesto.

Cheap shot.
There are some charming suburbs that have character and plenty of space to park a Hummer or even better, a 1960s Cadillac convertible.  
I like Walnut Creek. They have vast neighborhoods with Brady Bunch styled Eichler homes, plenty of space, hiking, bicycle trails, Mount Diablo and BART access.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
That's what I mean. It raises the median income level by replacing low-income people with high-income people.

You sound like a Republican.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Flighty
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):

You sound like a Republican.

They complain about it in DC, too. When disadvantaged, ghetto neighborhoods are surrounded by enormous wealth, the basic pressure of the money & short commute time eventually squeeze out the residents of the ghetto. Typically there is fabulous housing stock just waiting to be rehabbed. Former residents leave for suburbs. Due to the gentrified property taxes, if nothing else.

I don't know if this happens in Detroit, or ever will. If the car industry keeps kicking ass, Detroit might do well. It is a stylish challenge for today's landscape architects and urban planners.
 
BMI727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:45 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 33):
Great. Enjoy Modesto.

I've never been there, but I don't see any problems with Modesto.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 33):
And i'd bet you'd give your left nut to live in some neighborhoods like Montclair and you'd still have an Oakland address.

Not as much as I'd give to live in Sausalito or Fremont.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
There are parts that are crap and their downtown is a joke but areas such as Oakland Hills, Rockridge and Montclair are beautiful with many well maintained old homes, lots of trees with great views of the Bay Area.

To be fair, most cities have that. The difference between cities is in the proportions.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
You sound like a Republican.

Perhaps not as Republican as those who favor mixed income housing so that rich people can set an example for others. That comes off as demeaning to me.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:36 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
Today in Oakland, you can buy an arugula at a Whole Foods -yet still walk across the street and buy a 40oz of Steel Reserve and grape flavored MD 20/20.

Not to mention what you can buy in Oaksterdam...   
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
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EA CO AS
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Unlike Detroit, Oakland has a very positive influence very close-by.

San Jose?   
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:13 am

I do find it interesting that DocLightning is moving to the neighborhood were the original Black Panthers started in the 1960s. Would be cool to see Doc raise his fist and grow out a huge Afro!   
I suspect Doc will be inviting Angela Davis over for the house-warming party.
Power to the people!  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Not as much as I'd give to live in Sausalito or Fremont.


Sausalito I can understand but Fremont?   
The only thing I like going to there is the Pick & Pull wrecking yard.
Other than that, it's just a boring community with an abandoned Solyndra plant.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
They complain about it in DC, too. When disadvantaged, ghetto neighborhoods are surrounded by enormous wealth, the basic pressure of the money & short commute time eventually squeeze out the residents of the ghetto. Typically there is fabulous housing stock just waiting to be rehabbed. Former residents leave for suburbs. Due to the gentrified property taxes, if nothing else.


I totally understand. I just find it amusing that cities that like to 'think' of themselves as liberal & tolerant suddenly become greedy capitalist when it comes to their own property.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 37):
Not to mention what you can buy in Oaksterdam...


  
LOL!
Awesome!

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
To be fair, most cities have that. The difference between cities is in the proportions.


Modesto and Fremont doesn't.
There are vast areas of Oakland that are very nice - mostly up in the hills.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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n229nw
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:28 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Not as much as I'd give to live in Sausalito or Fremont.

LOL. Fremont is a pit: a run-down strip-mall depressing suburb. What draws you there? Taco Bell franchises?

[Edited 2012-11-19 20:30:02]
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BMI727
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:00 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 40):
Fremont is a pit: a run-down strip-mall depressing suburb. What draws you there?

It struck me as a nice suburban place with space and people who mostly have some money. Maybe I only saw the nice parts.

It could be that I only saw the nice parts, but I like strip malls and as long as there's one Chipotle then the Mexican fast food is cool with me. (I could survive with Qdoba even though it isn't as good)
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:59 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 40):
LOL. Fremont is a pit: a run-down strip-mall depressing suburb.


I wouldn't call Fremont "run-down" either. It's just a bland suburb.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 41):
It struck me as a nice suburban place with space and people who mostly have some money. Maybe I only saw the nice parts.



Sure you were in Fremont? Next time you're in the Bay Area, visit the Walnut Creek, Pleasant Hill area as well as San Ramon & Pleasanton. It's suburbia but with character and friendly people.
Cities on the Peninsula such as Palo Alto didn't make my list because it feels very pompous and stuck up. Perhaps having Stanford and all of those tec-geeks is the reason.  


As far as Detroit 'rising', a part of me wants the city to remain a ruin and perhaps a National Park and/or a Monument of urban decay. Not sure if I'm comfortable with pin-headed geeks moving in. They can have a negative impact on existing statewide gun, alcohol and car registration laws. I would hate to see the great state of Michigan go the way of California.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:18 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
As far as Detroit 'rising', a part of me wants the city to remain a ruin and perhaps a National Park and/or a Monument of urban decay. Not sure if I'm comfortable with pin-headed geeks moving in. They can have a negative impact on existing statewide gun, alcohol and car registration laws. I would hate to see the great state of Michigan go the way of California.

CA is the worlds 5th largest economy. I imagine MI would be OK with that status, instead of its current decaying rust belt status.

Geeky or not, tech is one area that our country excels at. Manufacturing can almost all be done cheaper elsewhere, natural resources is a finite self-limiting game, healthcare is a zero sum game, etc. Tech is one area where wealth is routinely being created.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:47 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 43):
CA is the worlds 5th largest economy.



Not anymore. California slipped to the 10th largest economy in the world.
http://sdrostra.com/?p=13567

Quoting Revelation (Reply 43):
Geeky or not, tech is one area that our country excels at. Manufacturing can almost all be done cheaper elsewhere, natural resources is a finite self-limiting game, healthcare is a zero sum game, etc. Tech is one area where wealth is routinely being created.



Not discounting the merits of the tech industry. What I should have said is that I don't want Michigan to turn in to a nanny-state like so many other 'blue' states. The state of Nevada used to be a libertarian leaning, wild-west state but has turned in to regulated, bureaucratic nanny-state thanks to all the Californians that's moved there within the last 20 years.
Michigan still has lots of outdoors-men, hunters, gun owners and the highest number of registered boat owners. Many of the urban hipsters in the tec-industry may not understand this culture and may want to change the entire state to suit their ideals.
Bring back the Concorde
 
mham001
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:45 pm

I've sometimes worked in Oakland since the mid 80's. Plenty after the fire. I also had friends who moved to Oakland from San Jose thinking all those beautiful old houses would be gentrified. They scurried back to San Jose the first time one of them got mugged.

Oakland is hole and it always will be. Even Jerry Brown, the great liberal savior could do little for Oakland. I know plenty like to point to the hills as a redeeming grace and almost justifiably so - until the flatlands violence spills over and crosses Hwy 13. And speaking of old Oakland/Berkely money, have you seen those rich folks? They look totally inbred and in dire need of sunshine. I guess thats what happens when you don't dare cross the boundaries of your neighborhood.
Oakland will always be the region's Newark.
 
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:50 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
What I should have said is that I don't want Michigan to turn in to a nanny-state like so many other 'blue' states.

You may or may not get your wish with MI because one of its native sons showed the country what naked capitalism looks like, and even with a soft economy and a promise to extend tax cuts he lost.

However, there are plenty of solid red states out there to choose from, to a large degree due to one thing the GOP is quite good at, which is gerrymandering.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
Michigan still has lots of outdoors-men, hunters, gun owners and the highest number of registered boat owners.

Head off to Texas. The place is still run by older white right wingers so you'll be fine.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:12 pm

At least they are tearing down some of those old burned out and decrepit abandoned homes near downtown. That's a good thing.

I think Detroit is a good example of what happens when you have massive corruption in city government.

If they make the state an "employment at will" state maybe more companies would consider Michigan again.
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Superfly
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:38 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
And speaking of old Oakland/Berkely money, have you seen those rich folks? They look totally inbred and in dire need of sunshine.


Agreed!
Probably because of that Mormon Temple up there in the hill.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
You may or may not get your wish with MI because one of its native sons showed the country what naked capitalism looks like, and even with a soft economy and a promise to extend tax cuts he lost.


He doesn't represent the Michigan I was talking about.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
Head off to Texas.



I've done even better - Thailand.
Texas without the Holy-rollers.  
Quoting type-rated (Reply 47):
I think Detroit is a good example of what happens when you have massive corruption in city government.



To be fair, New York, Chicago, San Francisco and Los Angeles are corrupt as well.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Detroit Rising

Tue Nov 20, 2012 11:16 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):

Gentrification is the name of the game in the SF Bay Area. Areas that used to be very run-down and dangerous, such as the Mission District and East Palo Alto are now seeing rapid rises in property values and massive demographic shifts away from low-income minority residents to young professionals.

Torrance & San Pedro have done much the same down here. Though in Torrance' case, that might have a lot to do with putting Rolling Hills within city limits now.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):
But, considering the costs and taxes, I'd put it in the same category as a lot of Europe in that it's a place I like to visit but would probably hate to live in.

Why would you hate to live somewhere just because of taxes? You could always get a job or something.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 30):

Nobody told the people who are continually trying to do it. Of course it looks damn good if you're coming from East St. Louis.

So does West Hell.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 34):
I like Walnut Creek. They have vast neighborhoods with Brady Bunch styled Eichler homes, plenty of space, hiking, bicycle trails, Mount Diablo and BART access.

I've always really loved that 70s contempo look for housing. The neighborhood I grew up in over in Rockville was like that. Our house had a real natural feel to it that's really hard to dupe any other way.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
-yet still walk across the street and buy a 40oz of Steel Reserve and grape flavored MD 20/20.

Flughh... Four cans of 211 should be the legal lifetime limit. That stuff is awful.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):

As far as Detroit 'rising', a part of me wants the city to remain a ruin and perhaps a National Park and/or a Monument of urban decay. Not sure if I'm comfortable with pin-headed geeks moving in

Actually, that would be kind of cool too. I spend a lot of time writing about futuristic dystopic landscapes. Detroit (or Deet-Row-It if you're Gordon Lightfoot) was until recently a favorite well of mine. I've been out there almost every summer of my childhood, and a bunch of times over the last few years (a lot of family in St. Claire Shores area). The transformation has been fascinating from an observational standpoint.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
Head off to Texas. The place is still run by older white right wingers so you'll be fine.

For now. TX will go blue, I'll wager good money I mean, by the 2020 Election Cycle.
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