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moo
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Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:22 am

As the first thread has now been archived due to lack of discussible news on Assanges self imposed confinement, might as well start a new thread  

Apparently he's suffering from a chronic lung infection and weight loss, and the Ecuadorians are still pushing for "fingers crossed" visits to hospital...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20537157
 
NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:32 am

Not much happening really, moo. The only 'news' appears to be that Assange is running out of money, due to the credit card people withdrawing support (no doubt under governmemt pressure)?

I don't know why the Ecuadorians keep pushing the 'safe conduct' business. They must know that, faced with an extradition warrant from Sweden, the British have no choice in the matter. Assange can go to hospital any time he likes - but he'll find himself under arrest as soon as he leaves the Embassy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...politicians-of-blocking-funds.html


[Edited 2012-11-29 02:02:15]
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moo
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:31 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
The only 'news' appears to be that Assange is running out of money, due to the credit card people withdrawing support (no doubt under governmemt pressure)?

The bigger news there is that the EU has declined to launch an investigation into VISA and MasterCard withdrawing merchant accounts from WikiLeaks as they have decided it would not breach antitrust  

Poor poor Assange.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:07 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 2):
Poor poor Assange.

He may actually be 'poor' nowadays! Though, as far as I know, the right to have credit card companies (which, after all, are just commercial organisations) provide services to you isn't covered by the 'four freedoms' (or any other legal code)?  

I've always had mixed feelings about Assange. On the one hand I enjoyed some of his revelations a lot. On the other, for my sins, I spent a bit of time in the field artillery, facing the Russians in Germany. We had (as far as I knew) three OPs (observation posts). The first one had been there since about 1946 - we used to see the Russians through the glasses, and wave; and they usually waved back. The second one was hopefully still secret; we had to crawl to it, and avoid waving. The third one was genuinely secret (as far as anyone knew); we had to 'wriggle' to that one, in the dark, and stay there, very much with 'heads down,' all day.........

If Assange and the internet had been around in those days, he'd very possibly have published information on all our OPs, and probably the gun positions as well. I don't suppose that that would actually have started WW3 and got us killed; but it would sure have meant us poor buggers having to do a hell of a lot of digging; at night, and mostly in the rain........  

All in all, I'm not overly sorry that he's out of business......
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:17 pm

My issue was they way he went around doing what he did - there's no way you can claim every one of a million documents is in the public interest, he was scattershotting and he didn't really care what was in there.

I also didn't like the fact that he considered private business contracts between two consenting entities as fair game either - what good does a contract between Airbus/Boeing and an airline do being in the public eye?

And then he rubbed me entirely up the wrong way by flat out saying that the British legal system didn't work.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:07 am

Apparently Assange isn't sick after all:-

"Ecuador's embassy in London has published a clarification about the health of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, who has been living there for five months, saying there is no urgent problem.

"Ambassador Ana Alban, the South American country's envoy to Britain, told reporters in Quito on Wednesday that Assange "has a chronic lung condition that could worsen at any time".

"A statement posted on the London embassy's website on Thursday said: "In reference to reported comments of the Ambassador Ana Alban, Julian Assange does not have an urgent medical condition.

"We continue to seek the assurances from the UK and Swedish governments to enable him to live a normal life, free from the fear of extradition to the United States."


http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/1...Assanges-lung-condition-not-urgent

The Ecuadorians must be desperate to see the back of him. But 'no joy' this time........
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
free from the fear of extradition to the United States

Oh brother, he's still afraid of America? Doesn't he find it funny we haven't requested extradition?

And what does he have to say about the charges in Sweden? That Sweden (of all countries) is a puppet to America and they'll for some reason give him to us?

I think Assange is indeed sick... sick in the head
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Ken777
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:23 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 1):
The only 'news' appears to be that Assange is running out of money, due to the credit card people withdrawing support

What a shame. Reality is that none of the card companies want to be involved in a crime of violating security laws.

In reality it doesn't matter as apparently the guy is getting free room & board.

As to his health - a doctor can drop by and provide an Rx or two or three.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:39 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
And what does he have to say about the charges in Sweden? That Sweden (of all countries) is a puppet to America and they'll for some reason give him to us?

Yes, in contrast to the UK (whom we all know never bows to the might of the US), Sweden apparently enjoys some form of special relationship with the US. A military alliance, extensive co-operation in terms of intelligence and security. Goes back to Roosevelt. Or no, wait a minute...

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
Oh brother, he's still afraid of America? Doesn't he find it funny we haven't requested extradition?

Could just be that he's actually guilty and figures to use his earlier role in Wikileaks to rouse the tin-foil people.

[quote=NAV20,reply=5]The Ecuadorians must be desperate to see the back of him. But 'no joy' this time........

I'm sure they thought granting him asylum temporarily would give them some some diplomatic leverage the UK and probably the US. Doesn't seem to have worked out that way.

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Quokkas
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:01 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
That Sweden (of all countries) is a puppet to America and they'll for some reason give him to us?

I don't know if you are familiar with the Muhammad al-Zery case but I posted links in the previous thread that showed Sweden had assisted in rendition of a "suspect" who was bundled into a vehicle, taken to the airport, placed in an executive jet with American registration N379P and shipped out to Egypt, where he underwent torture. The '"suspect" was later released without charge and the Swedish Government acknowledged their role in the affair when they paid him compensation.

I personally think that as long as he is able to remain in the media spotlight that it is unlikely that the Swedish would want to do anything similar. Not I think they do. Far from it.
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:12 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 9):
Muhammad al-Zery

Notable, but its also worth noting that a lot of those rendition flights went through the UK with the explicit permission of the British Government - I continue to fail to see why he would be any more safe here in the UK than in Sweden  
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:13 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 10):
I continue to fail to see why he would be any more safe here

Perhaps that fine old British tradition of forming an orderly queue? While the British were considering an extradition request from Sweden could they ignore it only to consider one from the US? That would be a poor show, old boy.  

But I agree that the British might be just as accommodating if the US were serious about Assange's extradition. So far it remains unclear on what grounds he could be charged, let alone extradited to the US.

At least in the example I gave (and it might be noted that a second person was extradited at the same time and has since been granted permanent residency in Sweden) there was an allegation of terrorist related activities. In comparison, the worst Assange can be accused of is embarrassing people by confirming what was already suspected. Selfish and egotistic? Maybe. But that isn't a crime but an essential trait of just about anyone who goes into politics as a career.

On the more serious allegations he should avail himself of the opportunity to clear himself. I can see that he might fear being wrongfully convicted as he may not be able to prove innocence. But by refusing to appear he simply confirms in the minds of many that he has something to answer for. He won't achieve an acquittal if he is innocent by hiding away in a bedsit in an Embassy in London where the hosts are growing weary of his presence.
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NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Sat Dec 01, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 11):
Quoting moo (Reply 10):
I continue to fail to see why he would be any more safe here

Perhaps that fine old British tradition of forming an orderly queue?


My own feeling is that none of this ever had much to do with any possible extradition to the USA. That all Assange was interested in was 'getting out from under' the Swedish rape charges; but he brought the US possibility into it to make his own position look more respectable ('heroic leaker' as opposed to 'casual rapist').

I think, further, that neither he nor the Ecuadorians involved looked up British 'law and practice' with regard to extradition warrants. My guess is that both he and they thought, at the beginning, that the granting of asylum would entitle him just to head for the airport and leave Britain in the normal way. In fact, what with the repeated requests for 'safe conduct to a hospital,' they still don't seem to have got the message..........

Anyway, there appear to be only two options open to Assange. Either give himself up and take his chances in the Swedish courts; or face what will amount to 'life imprisonment' in his Embassy bedsit...........
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Sat Dec 01, 2012 2:35 am

Isn't a diplomatic pouch whatever an embassy says it is? ..and aren't embassy cars immune from search?

Build a coffin-type box adequate to live in for a few hours and have it loaded unto an Ecuadorian (or friendly 3rd party) ship for Guayaquil....After its free of British waters....the box can open, maybe?

Just for the sake of drama I want something like this attempted.



Pu
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:33 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 9):
I don't know if you are familiar with the Muhammad al-Zery case

Are you aware of the aftermaths in Sweden?
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Ken777
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:38 am

Quoting Pu (Reply 13):

Isn't a diplomatic pouch whatever an embassy says it is? ..and aren't embassy cars immune from search?

Going from the building to the car isn't protected and the police would block the car if they tried.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Sat Dec 01, 2012 3:42 am

Quoting Pu (Reply 13):
Build a coffin-type box adequate to live in for a few hours and have it loaded unto an Ecuadorian (or friendly 3rd party) ship for Guayaquil....After its free of British waters....the box can open, maybe?

Just for the sake of drama I want something like this attempted.

I believe that something like that is going to happen, maybe not tomorrow, but sooner or later. And with British "assistance".

He has already served a longer sentence than anything he could fear in Sweden. And as long as he doesn't turn himself in to Sweden he will continue to be "imprisoned" in countries which do not deliver him to Sweden. He will not be a free man until he has faced the Swedish judge.

I believe that the Englishmen one day will find a way to make him "accidentally" disappear. Game over, and everybody will be happy, including the Swedes. It is not like Sweden fears that if he gets out of the embassy, then he will sneak into Sweden and rape all Swedish women.

"He fooled us by growing a beard and having his hair tinted. He walked in on black shoes, but must have walked out on brown shoes". Something like that we may hear from Britain one day. Game over.
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NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Sat Dec 01, 2012 7:31 am

Quoting Pu (Reply 13):
aren't embassy cars immune from search?

Good point, PU, I should have covered it. Yes, if the building had a basement car park Assange could indeed be driven to Heathrow in a diplomatic car, enjoying diplomatic immunity. But the buildings in that part of Central London are mostly 'Edwardian,' built in the early 1900s, more or less before cars were invented - so the Embassy doesn't have a car park. So Assange can only leave on his feet.........

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 16):
I believe that the Englishmen one day will find a way to make him "accidentally" disappear. Game over, and everybody will be happy, including the Swedes.

I don't think the current situation presents any particular problem for the British, prebennorholm. It only 'costs' them a few policemen on duty; one in the lobby (by arrangement with the building owners) and a couple in the street outside. It's their duty to do that, under their extradition treaty with Sweden. Further, they'd be in direct breach of that treaty if they 'conspired' to allow Assange to escape......
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
L-188
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:32 am

I like the coffin idea, just neglect to put air holes in it.

Many people have died all over the world because of this mans actions.

Speaking of his actions, anybody still thing he is innocent of rape after his act the past coule of years
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prebennorholm
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
I don't think the current situation presents any particular problem for the British, prebennorholm. It only 'costs' them a few policemen on duty; one in the lobby (by arrangement with the building owners) and a couple in the street outside. It's their duty to do that, under their extradition treaty with Sweden. Further, they'd be in direct breach of that treaty if they 'conspired' to allow Assange to escape......

What I had in mind was not a breach of the extradition treaty. I imagined a secret agreement with the Swedes in advance. I'm pretty sure that the Swedes will be more than happy never to see the man again. If he ever shows up in the Sweden, then a trial might easily collect quite a few strange people in Stockholm for some riot like activities (unless it is winter and miserable cold of course).

If the Ecuadorians really want to keep the man, then it just seems so convenient for everybody. Too convenient to ignore in the long run.

And add to that, Assange has already suffered more than enough for what crime he may have committed in Sweden.

Who woundn't rather spend a year in a Swedish prison than six months in an Equadorian embassy?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:43 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 18):
Many people have died all over the world because of this mans actions.

While I think he went about releasing information very sloppily, do you have any proof of anyone that has died? I would not be surprised if many died but I haven't seen anything attributed to him. He could've released damning information without naming informants... that's just terrible

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 19):
I'm pretty sure that the Swedes will be more than happy never to see the man again.

I'm sure the Swedes respect their legal system more than political convenience, or at least I would hope

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 19):
And add to that, Assange has already suffered more than enough for what crime he may have committed in Sweden.

For rape?? Then again, I'm not too educated on Swedish laws, I hope rape would carry a little more of a heftier sentence.

Plus he hasn't suffered for any crimes, he's choosing to stay in the embassy. I couldn't care less if he spends a 100 years in there, that's his own doing, and I would not find it wrong to send him to jail for any crime he may be dodging.

I don't care for the man, but what I am saying is not being said in revenge, just the reality of the situation
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prebennorholm
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 3:55 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 18):
Many people have died all over the world because of this mans actions.

It depends on how you look at it.

He did unveil for a large number of governments - especially the US government - that their data security measures were inadequate. And they scrambled to correct that.

If he had not done that, then someone else would have done it later. And had it been done more secretly, then it could easily have caused a lot more harm.

In fact we don't know if serious secret leaks have been done before Assange, leaks which now have become impossible because he showed us that improved security was needed.
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prebennorholm
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:20 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
For rape?? Then again, I'm not too educated on Swedish laws, I hope rape would carry a little more of a heftier sentence.

From what I have heard the case is that a drunken woman shall have discovered too late that he didn't honor an agreement to use a rubber thing.

With my limited knowledge about the Swedish justice system, then - if found guilty - I wouldn't be surprised at all if he would get away with a fine and/or economic compensation to the victim.

Maybe they might put him in custody, but certainly not to rotten away for years. But it wouldn't surprise me if they just handed him an invoice.
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NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:58 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 19):
Who woundn't rather spend a year in a Swedish prison than six months in an Equadorian embassy?
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
For rape?? Then again, I'm not too educated on Swedish laws, I hope rape would carry a little more of a heftier sentence.

Looks like, if convicted, he could cop at least two years, and possibly up to six. And it won't help him that there were allegedly two women involved - that would appear to rule out any sort of 'momentary lapse' defence.........

“A person who by assault or otherwise by violence or by threat of a criminal act forces another person to have sexual intercourse or to undertake or endure another sexual act that, having regard to the nature of the violation and the circumstances in general, is comparable to sexual intercourse, shall be sentenced for rape to imprisonment for at least two and at most six years.

"This shall also apply if a person engages with another person in sexual intercourse or in a sexual act which under the first paragraph is comparable to sexual intercourse by improperly exploiting that the person, due to unconsciousness, sleep, intoxication or other drug influence, illness, physical injury or mental disturbance, or otherwise in view of the circumstances in general, is in a helpless state.

"If, in view of the circumstances associated with the crime, a crime provided for in the first or second paragraph is considered less aggravated, a sentence to imprisonment for at most four years shall be imposed for rape."


http://erlinghellenas.wordpress.com/2010/09/01/the-swedish-rape-law/
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:05 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 22):

From what I have heard the case is that a drunken woman shall have discovered too late that he didn't honor an agreement to use a rubber thing.

With my limited knowledge about the Swedish justice system, then - if found guilty - I wouldn't be surprised at all if he would get away with a fine and/or economic compensation to the victim.

From what I´ve heard, it was a bit more serious.
In the first case, when she found out that he had disposed of the rubber and told him to get off, he allegedly used force to hold her down while finishing the business.
In the second case he allegedly penetrated the woman without the agreed protection while she was asleep and then again used force to finish.

Jan
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AR385
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 8:32 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 12):
I think, further, that neither he nor the Ecuadorians involved looked up British 'law and practice' with regard to extradition warrants. My guess is that both he and they thought, at the beginning, that the granting of asylum would entitle him just to head for the airport and leave Britain in the normal way.

You are assuming that the Ecuadorians are naive at best, and/or incompetent at the worst. I can tell you that every government in Latin America that has been under a dictatorial regime at one time or another, knows pretty well and in depth the rules of diplomatic immunity, how to deal with refugees in their country´s embassy, and the rules of safe conduct. Ecuador chose to do this Assange thing, knowing full well what they were getting into.

For example, many Argentine refugees were driven out of the Mexican embassy in Buenos Aires in the ambassador´s car trunk.

An Argentine ex-president in the 70s, Cámpora, spent THREE years in the Mexican embassy before, according to the official version, being granted "safe conduct" to Mexico. I know for a fact, the ambassador at the time, a friend of my family, drove him out to EZE in the trunk of his car. The official version was just thrown out to avoid embarrassment.

Thus, I think it is safe to assume that if Assange wants to stay for a few years in his newfound London apatment, he can easily choose to.

[quote=DeltaMD90,reply=20]I'm sure the Swedes respect their legal system more than political convenience, or at least I would hope[/quote

Having lately read a few things about that system, I´m not so sure.
 
NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:06 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
You are assuming that the Ecuadorians are naive at best, and/or incompetent at the worst.

I think it was probably more a matter of a hasty decision at the top, AR385 - directly between the president and Assange - and that they didn't 'do their homework' (like checking the law, and things like whether the embassy had a basement car park). As I recall, Assange, once the British court upheld the extradition warrant, was within a day or two of being arrested and extradited, there'd have been no time to check all the details.
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moo
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 12:47 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 22):
From what I have heard the case is that a drunken woman shall have discovered too late that he didn't honor an agreement to use a rubber thing.

This is a reoccurring issue with the whole Assange saga - many of his "supporters" in these discussions don't actually know what hes charged with...

Which makes for an interesting discussion.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 25):
You are assuming that the Ecuadorians are naive at best, and/or incompetent at the worst.

Well, there has been connections made between Ecuadorian diplomatic circles and drug smuggling, and 40KG of cocaine was intercepted in an Ecuadorian diplomatic bag by the Italian police.

http://beta.humanrightsecuador.org/?p=1177

Quoting Pu (Reply 13):
Isn't a diplomatic pouch whatever an embassy says it is?

Actually, no - the Vienna treaty says that they can be used for "official materials" only.

From the BBC website:

Quote:

There are strict rules relating to "diplomatic bags" which are designed to allow countries to bring their documents in and out of a host nation. Diplomatic bags can be any size that the country wants them to be and they cannot be opened or detained in transit.

But the law says they are for official materials, so it is difficult to see how Julian Assange could be put in a crate and shipped out - not least because the British authorities would have a fairly clear idea what was in the box.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18521881

Also, theres nothing stopping HMRC officials from "sealing" packages even if they are diplomatic pouches.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 17):
Yes, if the building had a basement car park Assange could indeed be driven to Heathrow in a diplomatic car, enjoying diplomatic immunity.

What would he do once he gets to Heathrow? He has to get out of the car....

And the car can be prevented from leaving via the Channel Tunnel as well - British Police have the ability to stop the car but not search it, but they can hold it for an essentially unlimited period of time.
 
AR385
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Mon Dec 03, 2012 4:23 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 27):
Well, there has been connections made between Ecuadorian diplomatic circles and drug smuggling, and 40KG of cocaine was intercepted in an Ecuadorian diplomatic bag by the Italian police.

I can see your attempt to take a jab at the Ecuadorians, and attempting to portray the government as a criminal enterprise. But you failed to mention the following:

"In January 2012, Italy detected 40 kilograms of cocaine smuggled in a diplomatic pouch from Ecuador, arresting five. Ecuador insisted it had inspected the shipment for drugs at the foreign ministry before it was sent to Milan."

The shipment was in vases. Just because some corrupt person in cahoots with the traffickers modified the pouch does not prove your tacit assertion that Ecuador is run by thugs. There is no evidence so far that the drugs came from Ecuador.

Deviating the discussion by introducing irrelevant points is just not playing nice.

Assange is already in a living hell. Deservedly, in my opinion. He will either end up in Sweden, and I do not discount that he might be sent to the US from there, or he will die in the embassy.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 26):
I think it was probably more a matter of a hasty decision at the top, AR385 - directly between the president and Assange - and that they didn't 'do their homework' (like checking the law, and things like whether the embassy had a basement car park).

It could have been as you say NAV20, but, I believe Correa had been in talks with Assange where this scenario of asylum had been disscused, as early as March, IIRC. I´m sure the experts told the President all the angles of carrying out such an operation.

He may well have ignored the more cautionary voices, or may have decided to take a chance. Either way, it was a big gamble that I don´t see how Ecuador gets any benefit from. Even if the British authorize Assange to leave, I just don´t see what´s in it for Ecuador. If Assange does not die holed up where he is, as soon as there´s a change of government in Quito, he is headed for Sweden. Could take years though.

[Edited 2012-12-03 08:30:12]
 
NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:19 am

Maybe a 'sign of movement'?

Assange would possibly be well-advised to allow himself to be extradited to Sweden while he can still afford defence lawyers?

"AUSTRALIAN government officials believe that WikiLeaks is ''broken'' and that Julian Assange has no alternative other than to surrender for extradition to Sweden to face sexual assault allegations.

"They do not rule out the WikiLeaks publisher's eventual extradition to the United States.

"As Assange nears six months' confinement in Ecuador's London embassy, security and diplomatic sources in Canberra have privately expressed confidence that WikiLeaks is ''effectively moribund''.

"It is thought that the transparency group's dwindling financial support will ''sooner or later dry up'' leaving Assange ''irrelevant and with little alternative other than to leave Ecuador's embassy''.

''This is slowly playing itself out, over months, maybe more than a year, but there's only one likely outcome - extradition to Sweden,'' a diplomatic source said last week."


Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/pol...-20121204-2atbh.html#ixzz2E9SLcLvO
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AR385
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:50 am

Assange just spoke at the embassy in London and communicated his decision to run for office, a senate position in Australia in 2013. I assume that senators in Australia cnnot be prosecuted while in function?
 
NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:29 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
I assume that senators in Australia cnnot be prosecuted while in function?

Just dunno, AR385. I doubt that he stands much chance though, my sense is that he's increasingly viewed as a 'loser' here.

In any case, the 'burning question' is how he plans even to get to Australia to stand for office? Given that he can't leave the embassy without being arrested?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
AR385
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:24 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 31):
In any case, the 'burning question' is how he plans even to get to Australia to stand for office? Given that he can't leave the embassy without being arrested?

I don´t think that´s going to be difficult. He could play the martyr and if he chooses the right district (is that how elections work in the Land Down Under?) he may stand a chance with an internet media campaign. The guy has bad judgement, for sure, but he is still very intelligent. The real question is who is advising him and how he plans to fund such a campaign, unless he is bluffing.
 
Quokkas
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:29 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
I assume that senators in Australia cannot be prosecuted while in function?

It is a fundamental principal in the Australian legal system that everyone is equal before the law. As a consequence Australian politicians do not enjoy immunity from prosecution for criminal acts, nor are civil actions barred as we have just witnessed in the case of Ashby v Slipper. The immunity of Members of Parliament is limited to not being open to challenge for anything they say in Parliament. So, if Assange were to stand as an independent candidate for the Senate it would not provide him with any protection from being answerable to the British Courts for breach of his bail conditions, nor would it prevent his extradition to Sweden.

If he is, as has been suggested, bankrupt and became declared as such, he would be automatically disqualified. Section 44 of the Constitution states "Any person who - is an undischarged bankrupt or is insolvent - shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives."

In the very unlikely (in my opinion) event that he could pass that hurdle and be elected, he would be unable to take his seat as he is still subject to arrest. If he, without the permission of the Senate, did not attend for a period of two consecutive months he would lose his place. [Constitution: Section 20]

As a matter of interest, does Assange hold a British passport? That too would render him ineligible to stand as no person who owes allegiance to a foreign power and who has not withdrawn or revoked it may stand. For the purposes of paragraph 44(i) of the Constitution, “foreign power” includes the United Kingdom.

So, if Assange believes that standing for the Senate offers a way out he is on a loser.
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moo
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 1:22 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 28):
I can see your attempt to take a jab at the Ecuadorians, and attempting to portray the government as a criminal enterprise. But you failed to mention the following:

Sorry, no I wasn't taking a jab at hte Ecuadorians, I was merely pointing out that the Ecuadorian diplomatic circle is not as white as snow as people like to think - any nation which can have its diplomatic pouches (sealed bags) used for drug smuggling has problems with its diplomatic service imho.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
Assange just spoke at the embassy in London and communicated his decision to run for office, a senate position in Australia in 2013

I would say that thats quite a blatant breach of the agreement that Assange has with the Ecuadorian Embassy - no political speech...

Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):
I assume that senators in Australia cnnot be prosecuted while in function?

Not entirely sure how that would prevent his prosecution in other countries however.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:37 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 32):
unless he is bluffing

Good point, AR385. I think he IS - or, more probably, he (and his supporters and advisers) are 'clutching at straws.'

Unless the London Metropolitan Police perform some sort of horrendous stuff-up - which they're not noted for doing - Assange only has two options:-

1. To give himself up and submit to being extradited to Sweden for questioning; OR

2. To resign himself to spending the rest of his life in that embassy.

Sure - there are all sorts of other 'possible' outcomes. But (in my nowadays quite lengthy experience, I'm not young any more) 99% of them only happen in movies........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Quokkas
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:10 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 34):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 30):I assume that senators in Australia cnnot be prosecuted while in function?Not entirely sure how that would prevent his prosecution in other countries however

As pointed out in reply #33, standing for election to the Senate would provide Assange with no immunity from criminal prosecution or extradition. Even if he were by some chance elected, he would still have no avenue for avoiding prosecution. The only protection Australian politicians enjoy is that they can not be challenged on anything they say within the Parliamentary precinct. If they murder someone, rob a bank, commit fraud, rape someone or evade taxes, they are subject to the same laws as any other citizen.

The Australian Government (and the Opposition shares the same view) has indicated that it has no objection to his extradition to Sweden and that it would have no objection if the US were to request his extradition to face charges in the US Courts. That will not change simply because Assange nominates for the Senate.
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moo
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 36):

My point was, he's still in the UK - Australian law colud make him perpetually immune to the laws of physics for all it would matter to UK law in this matter, immunity in another country doesn't change his current situation.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 19):
And add to that, Assange has already suffered more than enough for what crime he may have committed in Sweden.

Not really.

The guy has been a spoiled, big ego type of bum that forced himself on two girls. He's played the legal games in the UK without a care in the world until it was time to man up and follows the rules of his bail.

Now he's cost actual supporters the money they put up for his bail. People who trusted him to follow the law and protect them and their financial support simply got the shaft. It was a clear indication that his "friends" there need to stop funding his time in hiding.

Personally I hope he stays there for 5 or 6 years before being caught sneaking out.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 37):
My point was, he's still in the UK

Absolutely agreed. As I previously stated:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 33):
if Assange were to stand as an independent candidate for the Senate it would not provide him with any protection from being answerable to the British Courts for breach of his bail conditions, nor would it prevent his extradition to Sweden.


Standing for Parliament in Australia would not in any way provide immunity from prosecution for offences allegedly committed overseas nor would it exonerate Assange in any way. We agree on that, although his supporters may have a different opinion.
“Not to laugh, not to cry, not to hate, but understand.” Spinoza
 
AR385
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:39 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 36):
As pointed out in reply #33, standing for election to the Senate would provide Assange with no immunity from criminal prosecution or extradition. Even if he were by some chance elected, he would still have no avenue for avoiding prosecution.

Good for you. Here, our congressmen and senators are immune from all types of prosecution. And boy, do they take advantage of that fact. They can´t be re-elected, though which is a two edged sword as I´m sure that´s a factor in the high levels of corruption. But at the same time, they´re gone after their term is over.

So then, my question would be why is Assange pulling this stunt? Grandstanding? Publicity?
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:54 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 40):
So then, my question would be why is Assange pulling this stunt? Grandstanding? Publicity?

My guess is publicity, AR385. If he doesn't perform, publicise secret files, etc., his supporters are just going to forget about him (and, most importantly, stop contributing money).

So he badly needs to get the impression over to his 'public' that he's doing something. Even though the rest of us know that he simply isn't..........
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Rara
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Dec 14, 2012 2:43 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 18):
Many people have died all over the world because of this mans actions.

Proof please. Proof of a single death would suffice, let alone "many".

Quoting L-188 (Reply 18):
Speaking of his actions, anybody still thing he is innocent of rape after his act the past coule of years

Anyone who has their wits together just knows he didn't rape her.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 18):
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER

Because all caps always help.  
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:10 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
Anyone who has their wits together just knows he didn't rape her.

There was a time when I thought so too. Then I read the police protocols ( http://www.nnn.se/nordic/assange/protocol.htm ) and now I think he is guilty. Not of the kind of rape most people think of when they hear the word. Read the documents and I think you too will change your mind.
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:35 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
Proof please. Proof of a single death would suffice, let alone "many".

You see, the typical response of a Assange supporter - I highly doubt that anyone has followed up on the welfare of the many Afghani informants and village elders whose names were released in the Wikileaks documents, so its impossible to tell if anyone has actually died. There certainly haven't been any high profile assassinations or killings, thats for sure.

But its equally arguable that its undeniable that many people have been placed into difficult positions because of the leak. Its just that hardly anyone cares about those particular people...

Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
Anyone who has their wits together just knows he didn't rape her.

Didn't know you were into voyeurism... you are professing to have been there at the time of each alleged incident, are you not?

When the difference between "just knowing" and "guilty or innocent" is the rule of law, I shall take the rule of law every single day. Because I don't want to be locked up because someone who "has their wits together" happens to "just know" that I'm guilty...

Assange has allegations to answer, the rule of law has said he has to answer them, he is avoiding the rule of law right now.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
Proof please. Proof of a single death would suffice, let alone "many".

I used to be in the boat of saying he killed people, but you and others are right, there is no proof. My problem is how he released the documents, could he have not taken out names? 100 people could have died, or 0 could have, but I see it as simple human decency to remove the names. Even if we find out 0 people died/were harmed, I will always have a problem with the way he released the documents. I can't think of an excuse to justify that, can you?

Quoting Rara (Reply 42):
Anyone who has their wits together just knows he didn't rape her.

Then let him be found innocent in a court of law, this is not vigilantism (or whatever the opposite of that would be, declaring people innocent without a trial)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
My problem is how he released the documents, could he have not taken out names?

The problem is two fold - firstly, there were literally millions of documents in the Wikileaks release, and secondly, they involved masses of unvetted third parties in an effort to redact ... something (no one is quite sure, because Wikileaks did not issue a redaction policy), and most places just shoved the documents up on their websites to get the public to highlight "interesting" documents.

And then there was the issue that Wikileaks used bit torrent to distribute the archive, but also posted the key publicly in several places...

It was all handled extremely badly by Wikileaks imho.
 
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:46 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
There was a time when I thought so too. Then I read the police protocols ( http://www.nnn.se/nordic/assange/protocol.htm ) and now I think he is guilty. Not of the kind of rape most people think of when they hear the word. Read the documents and I think you too will change your mind.

I have just read the document, not sure whether I feel differently now. Assange certainly seems an unpleasant type, but I knew that before... Also, my definition of rape may be horribly out of date. But for me it's still sexual contact against someone's will. Deliberately breaking the tip of a condom during intercourse - would that even possible? These things are pretty solid. I don't think I could rip one with my bare hands, let alone when it's attached and all slippery from various fluids. And without my partner noticing? No chance in hell.

Quoting moo (Reply 44):
You see, the typical response of a Assange supporter

It might be - but as you see, the response can also be given by non-supporters such as myself.

Quoting moo (Reply 44):
But its equally arguable that its undeniable that many people have been placed into difficult positions because of the leak. Its just that hardly anyone cares about those particular people...

Yes, that's indeed arguable. See, saying that many people have been placed into difficult positions and saying that "many have died all over the world" isn't quite the same. I wouldn't have any objection to the former.

Quoting moo (Reply 44):
Didn't know you were into voyeurism... you are professing to have been there at the time of each alleged incident, are you not?

Very clever. Hey, this is some remote corner of the internet, no-one cares about what we think and write here. It's not like we're judges in a criminal case of something. I'm just saying that if you employ common sense, look at the people involved, look at what the young lady wrote about taking revenge on cheaters etc., and the story becomes pretty much clear. Of course it's all just guesswork, but there are probabilities involved.

Those who insist that Assange is guilty of rape are also the ones who have decidedly negative opinions of him. Would they still think he was guilty if they liked the guy? I think we know the answer to that.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
Then let him be found innocent in a court of law, this is not vigilantism (or whatever the opposite of that would be, declaring people innocent without a trial)

Sure, under normal circumstances. But his circumstances aren't normal. If you were in his position, would you just calmly assume that everything is totally fine, he will get a fair trial in Sweden, and the U.S. or anyone else won't try to pull any shenanigans? Again, it's all just guesswork, but someone is trying to pull a lot of strings to get him, and not very subtly so, which just screams USA to me. Not sure what I'd do in his position, but I wouldn't just merrily let myself get extradited and say "oh well, nothing unusual here, justa rape trial, I'm sure everything will treat me very nicely and fairly!"

Quoting moo (Reply 46):
It was all handled extremely badly by Wikileaks imho.

Yes, it all developed into a total fuckup. Goes to show that Wikileaks didn't handle the sensitive data in any way better than those it stole from.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:27 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):
Sure, under normal circumstances. But his circumstances aren't normal.

Doesn't give him the right to avoid the court of law

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):
If you were in his position, would you just calmly assume that everything is totally fine, he will get a fair trial in Sweden, and the U.S. or anyone else won't try to pull any shenanigans?

If I feared the US, I'd be more scared to be in the UK. I've heard that the UK is America's lapdog... I do not agree with that, but you never hear about Sweden just "blindly" submitting to the will of the US! If anything, I'd see the UK as being more cooperative than Sweden. I know the US has a lot of power but I don't see the Swedes giving into America unjustly

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):
Again, it's all just guesswork, but someone is trying to pull a lot of strings to get him, and not very subtly so, which just screams USA to me.

Pulling strings? He was requested by Sweden and was being extradited by the UK... after being under house arrest for skipping trial (I'm fuzzy on the details.) Nothing wrong or out of the ordinary... then he flees to the Ecuadorian embassy and the Brits (rightly) prevent him from leaving for Ecuador. What strings are there?

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):
"oh well, nothing unusual here, justa rape trial, I'm sure everything will treat me very nicely and fairly!"

Being punished for rape, if found guilty, sounds fair to me. What he is doing is unfair... claiming victim and avoiding justice in court (even if he is found innocent.)



Look, as you can tell, I'm hardly a fan of the guy, but I am not letting that cloud my judgment. Optimally, I wish he hadn't done the whole Wikileaks thing, but the part that I am actually criticizing him about is 1: not censoring names, 2: avoiding a court hearing in Sweden for crimes not relating to Wikileaks while throwing up smokescreens, playing victim, and flat out being dishonest (the Swedes aren't going to extradite him to the US for the death penalty as I hear one of his "fears" is, IIRC, that is illegal under EU law)
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
NAV20
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RE: Julian Assange - Movement At The Station Pt 2

Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:48 am

Quoting Rara (Reply 47):
If you were in his position, would you just calmly assume that everything is totally fine, he will get a fair trial in Sweden, and the U.S. or anyone else won't try to pull any shenanigans?

It's important to bear in mind that Sweden, at this stage, only want to question him; they haven't laid any charges yet. And also that if the USA ever decides to charge him, they could extradite him from almost anywhere - it doesn't have to be from Sweden. But I said 'almost' because, clearly, given that he has done a deal with the president, Ecuador would probably refuse any extradition request.

My own view is that Assange's situation is a lot simpler than he makes out. That, specifically:-

1. He took legal advice and was told that he would almost certainly face trial in Sweden; that, on the evidence already disclosed by the girls, he might well be found guilty; and that, if he was, he could face up to six years in prison.

2. So he spoke to the Ecuadorian president who promised him that any extradition request, whether from Sweden OR the United States, would be refused; and he planned to move to Ecuador as soon as he could, and run Wikileaks from there.

3. But neither he nor the president 'did their homework'; in particular, they both assumed that, once in the embassy, he could be ferried to the airport in a diplomatic car, in the 'normal' way. Specifically, they probably thought that, like just about any other office building in a major city, the embassy had an internal car park.

Nothing to do with any likely action on the part of the USA; just trying to 'get out from under' the risk that the Swedes would put him on trial, convict him, and jail him for a few years.

Odd really that, purely because neither of them checked out the embassy's facilities, he appears effectively to have 'sentenced himself to life imprisonment' in that tiny room............
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

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