TheCommodore
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Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:44 pm

Well, its finally happened.

Congratulations Palestine.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/abbas-gi...th-certificate-20121130-2akk8.html


I sincerely hope this brings you a "new" beginning, and that you grasp and make the most of this opportunity.

              
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Cadet985
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:56 pm

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

Marc

[Edited 2012-11-29 15:31:34]
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:56 pm

Congrats Palestine. Now, prove that you want peace. The road has been hard and will continue to be hard, Israel is definitely not alone in erring in this conflict...

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries

Really?

Look, Palestine is far from perfect, but Israel isn't the beacon of perfection. The status quo isn't working and only 9 countries in the world seem to want to continue with it.

You can disagree, but calling everyone else "uncivilized" is pretty childish

[Edited 2012-11-29 15:05:52]
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N537FX
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:03 pm

Hope it leads in the right direction. Though i do think it is wrong to give the Palestinians a "do over". In real life there are no do overs. Just because Israel was declared by the UN, times have changed and the Arab side has to deal with the consequences of their failed bets. They really should have said yes in 1948. THey would have gotten much better quality of land to, as Israel was mostly given areas in the Negev desert.

Hope it leads to peace. Funny that if you read the reactions by groups in Gaza, many were against the bid. They said the PA did not coordinate the UN bid procedure with other palestinian factions, and that it might lead to more reprisals from Israel.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
They really should have said yes in 1948.

You even state that "times have changed." I'd wager that 99% of the people responsible to not accepting Israel in 1948 are dead by now. Why base the current situation over something that happened 64 years ago?!
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lewis
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:14 pm

Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
Though i do think it is wrong to give the Palestinians a "do over". In real life there are no do overs.

So you think the situation as is should be left to continue? The other choice is to drive anyone out and have Israel take over the territories they are currently occupying. What was wrong was that the international community has let this situation become the status quo and remain so for so many decades while the demographics of the area are continuously being altered through uninterrupted settling.
 
wolbo
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:21 pm

Congratulations to Palestine. Its a long overdue step and at the same time a clear wake-up call for Israel to make a sincere and constructive effort to reach a structural peace with the Palestinians and end the illegal occupation.
 
Newark727
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:40 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

Marc

Terrorists and the millions of Palestinians who live without a fully functional political system or nation to call their own, yes. Regardless of how the ongoing challenges between Israel and Palestine are resolved they are every bit as deserving as a government and political system that meets their needs as any other population in the world. Maybe a UN vote as just happened isn't ultimately the best way. But most of the "civilized" world (have you finished scrambling for Africa yet?) recognizes that all people have some right to governance and statehood.
 
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pu
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:54 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):

All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

Can you provide us a definition of terrorism that doesn't apply to Israel as well?


Pu
 
PSA53
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:19 am

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 6):
ongratulations to Palestine. Its a long overdue step and at the same time a clear wake-up call for Israel to make a sincere and constructive effort to reach a structural peace with the Palestinians and end the illegal occupation.

1)It did. Israel gave up land twice for peace gestures.One with Sadat and one with Arafat in 1993.2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.3) Do you recognize Israel right to exist as Arafat did? No?Yes?

[Edited 2012-11-29 16:20:40]
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AR385
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:57 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

You need to cut the snarky comments. That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated. Their unreasonable stubborness. These are the countries that voted against:

The Czheck Republic , Canada, Panama, Nauru, Palau, Micronesia, The Marshall Islands, Israel and the US. I wouldn´t call some of these, specially civilized.

As for those who abstained, good luck getting a 41 country block to form anything resembling the UN.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:58 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN. All this is doing is giving terrorists legitimacy.

I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

It blows my mind that Israeli diplomats (and this post) use the assertion that the UN is biased against Israel to claim that they don't need to observe anything the UN does, then turn around and claim that Israel's legitimacy as a nation is the UN and that the Arabs who refused to accept this are thus terrorists.

I guess the UN is racist when it disagrees with Israel and all-powerful when it grants Israel what it wants?

Anyway, most countries that abstained did so under US pressure.

I think this is a great step for the Palestinian leadership that has chosen peaceful diplomatic methods to have something to show. Otherwise, there is no motivation for Palestinians not to use violence.

Congratulations to Abbas.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 4):
Quoting N537FX (Reply 3):
They really should have said yes in 1948.

You even state that "times have changed." I'd wager that 99% of the people responsible to not accepting Israel in 1948 are dead by now. Why base the current situation over something that happened 64 years ago?!

Exactly. Times have changed and most Palestinians simply recognize that Israel is a reality now.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9):
2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.

Well, if you take land in a war, what do you do with the people who live there, and have been there for centuries? If you give them full rights, then you've annexed the land you won. There may be separatist movements (as in any annexation), but the situation is different to what Israel has on its hands. If, however, you claim to be a "democracy" but give no rights to the large population of the land you have just taken--because they would outnumber the people you need to be a majority in your democracy--and then you start displacing them from their homes and taking the land that they have had in their families for countless generations by force, while restricting their business, water, utilities, movement, and employment, you are dealing with an occupation.

[Edited 2012-11-29 17:24:10]
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PSA53
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:09 am

Quoting n229nw (Reply 11):
Quoting PSA53 (Reply 9):
2)What is you're interpetation of illegal occpation because throught out history you both have owned the land?I'd really like to know that one.

Well, if you take land in a war, what do you do with the people who live there, and have been there for centuries? If you give them full rights, then you've annexed the land you won. There may be separatist movements (as in any annexation), but the situation is different to what Israel has on its hands. If, however, you claim to be a "democracy" but give no rights to the large population of the land you have just taken--because they would outnumber the people you need to be a majority in your democracy--and then you start displacing them from their homes and taking the land that they have had in their families for countless generations by force, while restricting their business, water, utilities, movement, and employment, you are dealing with an occupation.



Cruel way to put it.So has the US,haven't we?Under a democracy,yet.

So,again,I ask,do you recognize the two states? And Israel right to exist?
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lewis
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:16 am

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
So has the US,haven't we?Under a democracy,yet.

If you are referring to occupying the US and displacing the native population, then yes you are right. This though happened some centuries ago, where the practice of colonization was the norm, unfortunately. Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc. We have moved past such practices. In any way you look at it, the situation in W Bank IS occupation coupled with illegal settling of the area, which is strategically guided to alter the demographics and create so many Jewish enclaves that the hopes for a Palestinian state diminish every single day. Even if the Palestinians decide to leave their arms and make peace with Israel tomorrow, recognizing its right to exist and the works, this settling has created an irreversible situation that will make it very hard to establish a Palestinian state.
 
Powerslide
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:32 am

We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.  
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
And Israel right to exist?
YES. YES. YES. Very few people don't. This is getting so tiring

Quoting powerslide (Reply 14):
We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.  

Well, to be fair, this is a HUGE event
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PSA53
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:44 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
If you are referring to occupying the US and displacing the native population, then yes you are right. This though happened some centuries ago, where the practice of colonization was the norm, unfortunately. Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc. We have moved past such practices



1)I will protect that statement,as I will defended the US against any "Nationalism" of any kind,foreign or domestic.But you know as well I "The Palestinian effect"still does exist here.

2)Colonization really didn't go away all that long ago.Like the Middle East and India.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
In any way you look at it, the situation in W Bank IS occupation coupled with illegal settling of the area, which is strategically guided to alter the demographics and create so many Jewish enclaves that the hopes for a Palestinian state diminish every single day. Even if the Palestinians decide to leave their arms and make peace with Israel tomorrow, recognizing its right to exist and the works, this settling has created an irreversible situation that will make it very hard to establish a Palestinian state.

I'll agree to a degree with some of that.But you forget the extremists hardliners who have called for the "final solution" on Israel.With the PLO,before 1993, and now Hamas,who won't even give Israel's right to exist.It's the extremists who undermind the peace efforts and want make sure that it stays that way.
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Cadet985
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 7):
Terrorists and the millions of Palestinians who live without a fully functional political system or nation to call their own, yes. Regardless of how the ongoing challenges between Israel and Palestine are resolved they are every bit as deserving as a government and political system that meets their needs as any other population in the world. Maybe a UN vote as just happened isn't ultimately the best way. But most of the "civilized" world (have you finished scrambling for Africa yet?) recognizes that all people have some right to governance and statehood.

Let them have a government and political system. The UN is neither. I have no issue with statehood for the West Bank...provided they accept Ramallah as their capital, and keep their people under control (and I'll admit that they've been doing a good job of keeping their people under control). In terms of Gaza, I wouldn't do squat for them as long as the government there is sworn to the destruction if Israel. No negotiations, no nothing.

Quoting Pu (Reply 8):
Can you provide us a definition of terrorism that doesn't apply to Israel as well?

Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.

It's called self defense. You tell me, if a man with the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands could be taken out, that he shouldn't have been? That's what started this whole debacle in the first place.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
You need to cut the snarky comments. That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated.

Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 11):
I guess the UN is racist when it disagrees with Israel and all-powerful when it grants Israel what it wants?

After 1948, the UN has done nothing for Israel. It hasn't mediated wars, it hasn't kept the Arabs in check...and oh yeah...Israel is the only member who is barred from holding a seat on the Security Council..you know, the non-permanent, rotating seats.

Also, whenever Israel attacks Muslims, even if Muslim countries initiated attacks, who does the UN condemn? Israel.

Israel Forever!

Marc
 
lewis
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 16):

2)Colonization really didn't go away all that long ago.Like the Middle East and India.

The process started a long time ago, it just took all the imperial countries some time to completely pull out. Even Cyprus did not become an independent state until the 60s.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 16):

I'll agree to a degree with some of that.But you forget the extremists hardliners who have called for the "final solution" on Israel.With the PLO,before 1993, and now Hamas,who won't even give Israel's right to exist.It's the extremists who undermind the peace efforts and want make sure that it stays that way.

The extremists right now are not the majority, far from it. The PA in W Bank has proven that Palestinians are not all guided by craziness, they can move on and live their normal lives as long as people let them. But again, look at the W Bank, a place with little to no Palestinian violence and yet it is segregated and settlers are creating outposts all over the place with the final goal being the erosion of Palestinian lands. Keep in mind that W Bank has been off limits for Israel to the eyes of the international community since the creation of Israel. I will be the first one to say that Palestinians need to stop attacking Israel, but Israel should also halt all settling in the W Bank immediately, as in yesterday. The more this is allowed to happen (settling) the harder it becomes for a solution to be found. While the long-term effects of rocket throwing and killing each other can be somehow reversible, the results from the settling of Palestinian lands cannot, the Palestinians are fighting against the clock on this.
 
PHX787
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:55 am

About time, maybe the UN now can step in and finally arbitrate this mess. But I do not think that the terrorist Hamas government is legitimate. They need real elections.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
I'd also LOVE to see the US end any kind of aid to any country that voted to allow this status.

We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.
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PSA53
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:23 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 18):
The extremists right now are not the majority, far from it. The PA in W Bank has proven that Palestinians are not all guided by craziness, they can move on and live their normal lives as long as people let them



I'd like the think that.too, but I have to hesitate in saying that the media is giving Hamas center stage right now.And that's not healthy.The PLO still exists,BTW,and they're not in the news. Well.maybe that's a good thing.
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ltbewr
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:23 am

The new status of the Palestinian Territory is still a half-assed one. It still is an 'observer' status, with marginal practical benefit. The real benefit is political, to show the butt-headedness of a few countries who voted against this resolution.

The Palestinians can't become a country until they get some recognized status, but between the PA's refusal to recognize Israel, the desire of the the leading parties who get power in both Israel and the Palestinians by bashing each other, and Israel with their policy in the occupied territories, Gaza and so on, not much will happen.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:45 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 1):
Just goes to show that the UN is full of uncivilized countries, and that countries like the US, Israel, and every other country that abstained need to pull out of the UN

Well, at least you made mention of the US, and Israel (where I presume you reside) in that grouping of "uncivilized countries"

So, when you moving to a civilized country then.....?   

Seriously though, your attitude needs to change, like (most) the rest of the worlds has.

Quoting lewis (Reply 13):
Today there is international law, Geneva convention etc.

This is precisely what Israel is concerned about.... they will now be able to be held accountable, directly through action taken in the ICC, this will apply to Palestine too.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 14):
We really need more threads on this topic. Guess the mods are taking the week off.

You don't need to participate in them, but you keep coming back.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Yeah...I guess that's why they are a popular vacation destination, and places like Ben Gurion Airport are getting more passengers every year.

He meant politically speaking.....

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.

I'm sure the Israelis wont mind it you cut the aid

[Edited 2012-11-29 18:45:38]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Cadet985
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:08 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
Well, at least you made mention of the US, and Israel (where I presume you reside) in that grouping of "uncivilized countries"

I'm American and proud. I changed my flag to show unity with the State of Israel.

I will not be addressing the US being in a grouping of "uncivilized countries." You obviously did not understand what I meant, and to clarify what I was saying might just get me banned.

Marc
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:21 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):

Let them have a government and political system. The UN is neither. I have no issue with statehood for the West Bank...provided they accept Ramallah as their capital, and keep their people under control (and I'll admit that they've been doing a good job of keeping their people under control). In terms of Gaza, I wouldn't do squat for them as long as the government there is sworn to the destruction if Israel. No negotiations, no nothing.

Would it be so bad if Palestine and Israel shared Jerusalem? I mean it is Holy to the 3 religions of the Book...why not share it in the interest of peace.

Best thing for Israel is to pump aid into Palestine...help the security services, strengthen the PA, joint economic projects. If Israel wants to undercut Hamas, this is the way to go. If the Palestinians have good jobs and a good livelihood, they wont bother Israel and Israel doesnt have to keep going in there. The terrorism and the rockets have to stop. That has to be the condition for the Palestinians in order for them to have a permanent State. Israel has to remove the settlements..its time for them to go. If the settlers want to stay, let them stay on in a Palestinian state.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.

It's called self defense. You tell me, if a man with the blood of hundreds of Israelis on his hands could be taken out, that he shouldn't have been? That's what started this whole debacle in the first place.

Listen, i support Israel, and the majority of the World has said that Israel has a right to defend itself. But what has led to the rockets and the terrorists? Give the Palestinians their state...end the collective punishment, and then i bet you they wont bother Israel. I mean for Christ sake there is what..40 percent unemployment in the Gaza Strip? Thats a LOT of people just sitting around with nothing to do and having an axe to grind. True, Hamas is a terrorist organization and they have royally screwed up in Gaza...but Israel can ease the blockade and still interdict weapons flow. At the end of the day, they just wanna live their lives and not be bothered by anyone. I bet most Israelis would agree as well.
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:28 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 19):
We republicans don't want to give aid to anyone right now.

I am a fellow republican, but something tells me the party doesn't want to cut aid to places like Israel, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Israel because they are a close ally. Iraq and Afghanistan because they don't want to see hostile groups take over. But thats just me.
As a republican I guess I also am not supposed to support this but I actually do. This may be the first step to granting these people what they deserve, a sovereign government. Hopefully it will be led by peaceful leaders but we will have to see. I am a supporter of Israel but if they really want peace they should prove it by supporting a Palestinian state that is a peaceful ally. Though something tells me that may be an unattainable goal at this point in their relationship... There will always be problems in the world, but if we can fix conflict this the world will be a much better place to live.
Blue
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Powerslide
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:10 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
This is precisely what Israel is concerned about.... they will now be able to be held accountable,

I'm sure Israel is really concerned what some of the peanut gallery countries in the UN think. Nothing but a bunch of talking heads without the balls to do anything about it. They should send another letter to Israel or pass another resolution condemning their actions. Much good that does.....
 
Cadet985
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:15 am

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 24):
Would it be so bad if Palestine and Israel shared Jerusalem? I mean it is Holy to the 3 religions of the Book...why not share it in the interest of peace.

YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.

Marc
 
thegreatRDU
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:32 am

Canada voting against this shows how blindly they will follow the US and Israel...

Grow a pair.....
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TheCommodore
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:49 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 23):
You obviously did not understand what I meant,

I understood what you meant exactly thanks, its there in black and white.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 26):
I'm sure Israel is really concerned what some of the peanut gallery countries in the UN think.

So powerslide, if, as you say, Israel is not concerned about what the UN thinks/dose, because, and I quote....

"Nothing but a bunch of talking heads without the balls to do anything about it"

Then why has Israel been working overtime, lobbying every member nation of the UN, NOT to support Palestine in its bid?

Hardly the sort of behavior you'd expect to see from someone who couldn't care less is it ?

They care alright, and you know it,

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27):
YES it would be bad!!!!!

Well too bad, because today, its one step close to happening !   

[Edited 2012-11-29 20:51:44]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:51 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27):

YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.

Okay East Jerusalem then. Anyways, all im saying is....its Holy to three religions, why not share the city...
 
Mir
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:56 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 27):
YES it would be bad!!!!! It is a major Israeli population center, center of government, center of tourism. It IS the Israeli capital city. Let the Palestinians have Ramallah.

It's also a major Palestinian population center, and could easily be a center of government and tourism.

The Palestinians can have their capital anywhere they damn well please. If they want to have their capital in their part of Jerusalem, nobody should object to that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Powerslide
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:03 am

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 28):
Canada voting against this shows how blindly they will follow the US and Israel...

Government foreign policy...

More on this:

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/canada-join...tinian-statehood-un-212950844.html

Quote:
Baird goes so far as to suggest Canada will take retaliatory measures against the Palestinians for forcing the statehood issue onto the world stage.

I'm really interested what this means. Political action? Military? Probably just talk. We did just finish our mission in Afghanistan and Libya, could use more work, gets boring training all the time. I doubt Israel would welcome any foreign troops on its land any how and not like they need the help.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 5:51 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
It's also a major Palestinian population center, and could easily be a center of government and tourism.

The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

Marc
 
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pvjin
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:08 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

Who cares, those are just old pieces of stone and other building materials and may well be destroyed by some random earthquake some day. Both sides should be able to give in a bit to get that area finally a peace.
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PHX787
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:11 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 22):
I'm sure the Israelis wont mind it you cut the aid

Your sarcasm is duly noted    Honestly though maybe this is more libertarian coming out of me but In my opinion we should never aide palestine in the first place because of their illegitimacy as a nation...but now the world recognizes them. We are now seen as the bad guys for not recognizing them. But that also doesn't mean we are responsible for feeding them  
Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 25):
I am a fellow republican, but something tells me the party doesn't want to cut aid to places like Israel, Afghanistan, and Iraq. Israel because they are a close ally. Iraq and Afghanistan because they don't want to see hostile groups take over. But thats just me.

Hmm maybe it's just me as well....you have a point though about places that actually need it on account of our actions but I mean why did we give aide to Egypt's new dictatorial government? But I digress
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jetblueguy22
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:22 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

Although I see where you are coming from it is a holy places for Christians and Muslims as well. The Jewish people very well may have been there first, but things change over time. Saying we were here first so it is ours is against what kids are taught in preschool! Why people can't share joint holy lands when religion promotes peace and caring for others is beyond me.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 35):
Hmm maybe it's just me as well....you have a point though about places that actually need it on account of our actions but I mean why did we give aide to Egypt's new dictatorial government? But I digress

I don't understand it either, perhaps they hope the dollars will equal influence. Which it very well may. But it doesn't seem to be working at the moment.
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Newark727
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:40 am

As I said in another topic, some of the dollars to Cairo (though probably not all) are a result of the 1978 Camp David accords when we were trying to settle things between Egypt and Israel and IMO they've proved pretty helpful for that alone.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):

The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

And who do you think the Palestinians are? Not just Muslims alone. They're people who have lived in these places, have ancestry in the area going back far longer than the founding of Islam. Take your line of reasoning to its conclusion and there are way more people than just the Jewish who have claims on the Holy Land beyond them, too. I'm not sure who can claim to be the true descendants of the Assyrians and Phoenicians these days though. Also, good job putting shrines in scare quotes.
 
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:44 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 33):
The part that the Palestinians want contains the Old City, Western Wall, Church of the Holy Sepulchre - ALL of which pre-date ANY Muslim "shrines" in that area. The Muslim religion wasn't even founded until about 800 years after Jesus's death. It has been the home of the Jewish People for about 5773 years.

It's been the home to people in general for longer than that. You can bet that there are Palestinians whose ancestors were living in that area long before Muhammad was a gleam in his mother's eye.

The who's-land-is-who's argument is complicated enough from a political standpoint, there's no need to add religion to it.

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seb146
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 6:46 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
Hamas in Gaza aims rockets and fires blindly at Israel. Before Israel fires so much as a bullet at Gaza, they warn people to stay inside and away from terrorists.

Maybe because Isreal is a "recognized" nation but Palastine is not? Both should exist. Maybe if one recognized the other, things would change?

I wonder, and this is just me thinking out loud, if Isreal hates Palastine so much because Bethlehem is in Palastine and Bethlehem is the birthplace of Jesus and Palastine is both Muslim and Christian? Stupid reason, I know. Or, maybe because Palastine is both Christian and Muslim, they would not follow Jewish/Israeli law? Another stupid reason, I know.
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 8:29 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 39):

Israel is willing to recognize the government of Abu Mazen, with the conditions being mainly security considerations, and leaving Jerusalem off the table. In terms of Gaza, they have no regard for the "legitimate" Palestinian government. Remember that it was not Israel who walked away from negotiations.

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racko
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 9:13 am

Fun fact about Palestinians having to recognize the right to exist of Israel.

Likud, the party of Netanyahu, does not recognize the right to exist of Palestine:

"The Government of Israel flatly rejects the establishment of a Palestinian Arab state west of the Jordan river."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...urce/Politics/likudplatform15.html
 
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 10:32 am

http://news.yahoo.com/palestinians-w...GNhdANob21lBHB0A3NlY3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

If the territory of Palestine is a separate state, according to the UN, anything the Israelis do there comes under international law and not just under Israeli law.

This is big. That's why Israel and the US put so much effort into preventing this from happening.

 

The Palestinians have a self-evidence right to a state.

[Edited 2012-11-30 02:37:21]
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zkojq
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 11:04 am

Congratulations Palestine. It seems that the UN works quite nicely when one superpower or another can't veto any progress made. Locally (and somewhat interestingly), the conservative New Zealand government voted for this (after being silent for a few days so as to avoid extra lobbying from Israel and the US) while the leftist Australian government abstained from voting. Prior to a few days ago, I would have expected the opposite to occur.

Now for a fair peace-deal that addresses settlements, blockades, rockets, right of return and borders.....

Quoting n229nw (Reply 11):
It blows my mind that Israeli diplomats (and this post) use the assertion that the UN is biased against Israel to claim that they don't need to observe anything the UN does, then turn around and claim that Israel's legitimacy as a nation is the UN and that the Arabs who refused to accept this are thus terrorists.

It is rather ironic. It seems that the UN isn't so biased when you have the power (through the US) to veto stuff you don't like.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
It's called self defense.

I don't generally consider bombing residential neighborhoods, using white phosphorous over built up areas and other such war crimes self defense.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 10):
That is one of the reasons why Israel is becoming more isolated. Their unreasonable stubborness.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 21):

The new status of the Palestinian Territory is still a half-assed one. It still is an 'observer' status, with marginal practical benefit. The real benefit is political, to show the butt-headedness of a few countries who voted against this resolution.
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 24):
Best thing for Israel is to pump aid into Palestine...help the security services, strengthen the PA, joint economic projects. If Israel wants to undercut Hamas, this is the way to go.

  

Quoting Mir (Reply 31):
The Palestinians can have their capital anywhere they damn well please. If they want to have their capital in their part of Jerusalem, nobody should object to that.

Agreed, so long as it is on the Palestinian side of the pre-1967 borders. I'm sure Israel would be rather annoyed if the Palestinians were trying to dictate the location of their capital.
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Quokkas
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:13 pm

"Formal recognition of statehood is something that is done bilaterally, not by the United Nations." seems to have been the mantra in the days leading up to the vote. The US and its supporters, including some of those that abstained, argued repeatedly that Palestine could not be recognised unless they had a binding agreement with Israel. Oddly enough, they seem to not recall that there was no such agreement or requirement when Israel was proclaimed a state and subsequently recognised by the UN.

The double standards and hypocrisy continue to the bitter end.

However, now comes the hard part. We can only hope that there is a willingness on both sides to come to a permanent peace and that the threats and intimidation that were made prior to the vote are not carried out. That would simply be churlish.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 43):
while the leftist Australian government abstained from voting.

Although some of the Labor caucus were in favour of a "Yes" vote, the Australian Prime Minister was wanting to vote "No" but was prevailed upon by the argument that it would harm Australia's position in the rest of the region. Australia did not wish to be seen to be going against the US either and all Australian politicians love to travel on Israeli-funded sightseeing tours, so an abstention was seen as the most pragmatic solution.

[Edited 2012-11-30 06:02:09]
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777way
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:28 pm

The counries that voted against it are like a joke look at the list,a few US influenced tiny Islands that need not even be named, Czech Republick and Panama, hilarious.

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SOBHI51
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 1:55 pm

Could some of the usual pro Zionist state of Israel explain to me why they do not like it when the Palestinians resort to arm struggle they call them terrorists and when they resort to diplomacy via the UN this in not acceptable either.
I can explain one way then, Israel is not willing nor wanting a peaceful solution to the conflict.
As for Jerusalem, why don't they declare it as an open city ruled by an elected council representing the 3 religions and politically neutral.
Also i find some of the posting here very disturbing, calling for killing and destruction. Surprised it's coming from people living in countries known for there defense of human rights and spreading democracy all over the world.  
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 2:56 pm

Congratulations Palestine! May this step finally pressure Israel to take the issue seriously.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 40):
Israel is willing to recognize the government of Abu Mazen, with the conditions being mainly security considerations, and leaving Jerusalem off the table.

So, it's OK for Israel to have preconditions for anything, but it's not OK for Palestinians to ask for a freeze in settlement constructions (settlements deemed by the international community as illegal and that are in the area designated for Palestinians)?
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jfk69
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 3:57 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 34):
Who cares, those are just old pieces of stone and other building materials and may well be destroyed by some random earthquake some day. Both sides should be able to give in a bit to get that area finally a peace.

Say that about the Vatican also?
 
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Braybuddy
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RE: Palestine Granted Non-member State In UN

Fri Nov 30, 2012 4:07 pm

Great news for Palestine, and I'm delighted that we voted in favour. Hopefully it won't be too long before the state of Palestine will enjoy full membership at the UN. It's going to happen eventually, so the sooner it happens the better.

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