MadameConcorde
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Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:42 pm

This is dramatic...

Moroccan youth soccer players beat assistant referee to death in Amsterdam

Football Linesman Dies After Attack

A football linesman beaten and kicked by teenage players during a youth match has died.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RyZ23Bt1pxk

Netherlands: football linesman dies after match attack
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-20589509

Article in Dutch http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/2...128364/__Wat_een_kutvoetbal__.html

Google Translate English
http://translate.google.fr/translate..._Wat_een_kutvoetbal__.html&act=url

The video does not mention that the killers were 3 Moroccans but the article does.

RIP Linesman
My thoughts are going to his family and friends.

 Wow!    Wow!
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travelavnut
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:06 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
My thoughts are going to his family and friends.

As are mine...  


It's a f***-ing disgrace. The father of one of the players, a volunteer, beaten to death by 15/16 year olds. Un-surprising from Morocco.

I live right next of the soccer club of these brain-less idiots and am very familiar with the troubles of the Moroccon youth. I really hope this wakes a few people up in the Dutch-Moroccon society. They should stop being protective about their own and start accepting that there is a problem with their youth, after that they can hopefully change the tide. Unfortunately I don't see it happening....
Live From Amsterdam!
 
Ferminios
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:25 pm

My thoughts are with the family, friends and everyone involved as well. It's just incomprehensible that disagreements on the field can lead to such a terrible act of violence.

Quoting travelavnut (Reply 1):

   Couldn't agree more. The problem is way out of hand to the point where there's not a single bit of respect for authorities. "F*ck the police" is their attitude. Where I live we have a major drug problem and 90% of the dealers are of Moroccan descent.

It's sad and I honestly feel terrible for the Moroccan's in this country who just try to make a living and are good citizens. They have to put up with the negative sentiment against them because of guys like this.
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:40 pm

I'm not surprised. Aggression in soccer has been on the rise, as is the same with increasingly violent youth who no longer know how to deal with authority figures. We've been tolerating and sometimes even facilitating this behavior for years and I believe that it's only getting worse.

Martijn
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 3:56 pm

Asking our Dutch members.

What are the public reactions to this in the Netherlands? Any outcry?

   Wow!

Edited:
The story is in the English Daily Telegraph but there is no mention of the murderers being Moroccan.
Typical.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...en-officiating-his-sons-match.html

 Wow!

[Edited 2012-12-04 07:59:01]
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nipoel123
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:36 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
What are the public reactions to this in the Netherlands?

My personal reaction and those I hear around me is that this is unacceptable. But what concerns me the most is the level of punishment these guys are getting. The KNVB (Dutch football association) is not permitting them on any of their fields for... three years (Haven;t heard anything about prison or anything yet). If it was up to me, that time would be considerably less than what they'd spend in prison. Screw the minors-law, they should be tried against the adult-law.

Also, this doesn't improve the image of Morrocan youth in our country. I'm sure there are good ones out there, but it seems that the majority has little to no respect for authority and starts beating up anyone that remotely disagrees with them (OK, that's a hyperbole, but still, you get what I mean).
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CrimsonNL
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:19 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
What are the public reactions to this in the Netherlands? Any outcry?

The typical mass-reaction by the public is of course that we're all shocked and that we think it's unacceptable. But then when the media storm is over and we all forget until something similar happens.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
The story is in the English Daily Telegraph but there is no mention of the murderers being Moroccan.
Typical.

I don't think it really matters what race or ethnic origin these "people" are/have. There are plenty of 100% Dutch folks who commit similar violent crimes.

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
petertenthije
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:44 pm

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 5):
Haven;t heard anything about prison or anything yet.

Will be a while before you hear about that. The Dutch justice department is kind a slow. But I fear the punishment won't be that severe either. All three of them are juveniles and therefor will get more lenient sentences. Also, it can probably not be proven who made the specific kick that killed the referee, so probably they will all be booked for aggrevated assault instead of murder. There was a case a while ago ("Nijmeegse scooterzaak") where two people on a moped killed a pedestrian. Neither of them admitted to driving the moped and there were no witnesses. Therefor neither were penalised for causing death by reckless driving ("dood door schuld"). Another case involving Moroccans.

All football games for for next weekend have been cancelled, except for the professional games. Those will have a minute silence before the game. If you ask me those games should also have been cancelled, but the KNVB believes the minute silence will be a better signal then a cancelled match. Seems a poor excuse to me, probably the commercial interests are too important to cancel the matches.
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kaitak
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:48 pm

Didn't Dutch soccer have a very bad image some years ago due to football hooliganism, which seems now to have largely gone; what actions were taken to address this? Clearly, this is a major shock and if there's one single crumb of comfort his family can take is that his death will be a cold splash of water.

I would imagine that the vast, vast majority of people in the Moroccan community would condemn this action out of hand and I hope that the Dutch soccer federation would take action which would incentivise better behaviour at matches. The three teens involved should be subjected to the full rigours of the law and be banned from playing, but the soccer federation should be careful not to tar all players and the club itself with the same brush. Football is a very good way to teach discipline, not to mention fitness, and it will be counter-productive if as a result of an over-reaction, some kids are prevented from playing.

Is there a federation of referees and lines-people in the Netherlands, as there is in the UK?
 
AR385
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:43 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
I don't think it really matters what race or ethnic origin these "people" are/have. There are plenty of 100% Dutch folks who commit similar violent crimes.
Quoting kaitak (Reply 8):
I would imagine that the vast, vast majority of people in the Moroccan community would condemn this action out of hand and I hope that the Dutch soccer federation would take action which would incentivise better behaviour at matches.

Having read the above, reasonable comments,

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
The video does not mention that the killers were 3 Moroccans but the article does.
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
The story is in the English Daily Telegraph but there is no mention of the murderers being Moroccan.
Typical.

Your insistence on pointing out the ethnicity of the attackers is offputing and bizarre. Do you have a problem with Arabs, Africans or both?

Violence in soccer is pervasive everywhere, with people being killed all the time. It has happened in europe, and will happen again. It happens in Latin America. Think about that before being so emphatic on the ethnicity of the criminals here.
 
mham001
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:04 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
Your insistence on pointing out the ethnicity of the attackers is offputing and bizarre. Do you have a problem with Arabs, Africans or both?

Violence in soccer is pervasive everywhere, with people being killed all the time. It has happened in europe, and will happen again. It happens in Latin America. Think about that before being so emphatic on the ethnicity of the criminals here.

Imagine if they had been drunken American youths in Mexico running lawless. Would their ethnicity be ignored?

If it can be shown that Morracan youths are more likely to be involved in certain negative activities, it is a disservice to refuse to talk about it. This will only continue the cycle as they raise babies. We have plenty of experience here with that.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
Your insistence on pointing out the ethnicity of the attackers is offputing and bizarre. Do you have a problem with Arabs, Africans or both?

Just to be fair.

There is currently a debate going on in The Netherlands. Surrounding concerns around race issues, especially relating to Moroccans and Turkish people living in Holland.

I think that's all that Madame was pointing out ?  
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
lewis
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:46 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
I think that's all that Madame was pointing out ?

It was actually brought up by NL posters as well, I am sure they are more familiar with the situation in the country compared to someone sitting thousands of miles away.
 
wolbo
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:34 pm

Such a sad and unacceptable event, hard to believe that 15/16 year old 'kids' can do something like this.

It's good that the KNVB (Dutch FA) has cancelled all 32,000 amateur matches this weekend and that there will be a minute silence at all professional league games. People need to stop and think.

Sadly it's not the first time this has happened. Exactly a year ago an amateur player kicked a 77 year old man in the chest because of some remark he made and the man ultimately died due of internal injuries. Where does all this anger come from?  
 
PHX787
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:45 am

This is absolutely insane. In the US, we generally hate refs, but I highly doubt something as animal and low as this would ever happen. Pathetic hooliganism  
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AR385
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:38 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 10):
Imagine if they had been drunken American youths in Mexico running lawless. Would their ethnicity be ignored?

This analogy is so flawed in so many respects that it is pretty laughable.

Quoting lewis (Reply 12):
It was actually brought up by NL posters as well, I am sure they are more familiar with the situation in the country compared to someone sitting thousands of miles away.

Yes, because I live in a cave, have access to no outside news sources and I don´t read. Many posters also expressed their opinion without addressing the ethnicity of the youths. Other news sources have not even adressed it, saying instead it´s a problem with soccer in general.

http://deportes.elpais.com/deportes/.../actualidad/1354623455_824879.html
 
lewis
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:52 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):
Yes, because I live in a cave, have access to no outside news sources and I don´t read.

You don't need to live in a cave. I live much closer to your country than you do to the Netherlands and I don't know all the problems and issues that the Mexican society is facing. It is not something you can get by reading the news. You don't need to be so defensive about it.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):
Other news sources have not even adressed it

For a good reason. There is also an article that does address it and this is where mentioning the fact started.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):
Many posters also expressed their opinion without addressing the ethnicity of the youths

And some did.
 
petertenthije
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:40 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 15):
saying instead it´s a problem with soccer in general.

And they are wrong at least where the Netherlands are concerned. It is not a problem with soccer in general, least of all on the amateur level. Some 10 years ago there were certainly football riots from time to time (associated with professional football, not amateur), but except for high profile derbys with long histories those are largely a thing of the past.

This drop in hooliganism is in no small part due to the pro-active approach by the police, the justice department, the football clubs and the KNVB. In my opinion they overdo it cause they make visiting a away match very hard. For instance mandatory bus combis where supporters are no longer allowed to go to an away game by own transit. To give an example, I live in the south of the Netherlands, but grew up in the east. The team I support is in the east. When "my team" plays against the team in the city I live, I have to drive to the stadium of my team (1,5 hours away), take the mandatory bus that arrives at the game maybe half an hour before kick off, and have to take the bus back half an hour after the final whistle. So it takes half a day to see a match that I can actually HEAR from my house when I sit in the garden! My team has absolutely no history with hooliganism. With such rules the amount of away visitors has dropped quite a lot, and with it the potential for troubles.

That's not to say that nothing ever happens during football matches. But, and I hate to bring etnicity into this again, when something happens during a football match certain etnicities are far more likely to be involved. So does that really make it a football issue? Me thinks not.
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Speedbird741
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:36 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
Your insistence on pointing out the ethnicity of the attackers is offputing and bizarre. Do you have a problem with Arabs, Africans or both?

I don't know if it is MadameConcorde's intention to insist on pointing out their ethnicity or not. However, if it is, she should have no problem in doing so because *it is* their ethnicity and you should not take the unfortunate typical attitude of throwing the racist card on the table, which you seem to be doing. It is the attackers' ethnicity and any one who lives in Europe or has travelled through Europe - particularly France, Belgium, and the Netherlands - knows full well that Moroccans, indeed Northern Africans in general, integrate a segment of the population that is *significantly more frequently* associated with trouble making and fear-mongering relative to most other segments. Notice that this is not saying that they are all trouble makers at all. Please, do understand that this is not what I am saying because I am sure most would be bound to imply such. However, *I am* saying that if you were to fit a curve across segments of the population and propensity to criminal incidence, this group, in that region, would positively slope that curve significantly more than other segments. This is true whether people like it or not and this is another very unfortunate incident that cements this theory/fact. It is not unnatural that Europeans are fed up with situations like this one that are directly associated with that segment of the population and, therefore, no one should feel fear or restrain oneself from pointing it out.

Speedbird741

[Edited 2012-12-04 23:51:37]
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TheCommodore
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:48 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 18):

Knowing many Dutch People, of Dutch ancestry, I'd say you've summed it up perfectly well.   

[Edited 2012-12-04 23:49:21]
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
na
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:20 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 4):
The story is in the English Daily Telegraph but there is no mention of the murderers being Moroccan.
Typical.

Same here, especially the left wing press doesnt mention it. And they have banned the commentary function to prevent anyone telling so. Happens a lot. While it prevents utter racism to come out inevitably, which is of cause good, its still not what I call free press.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
I don't think it really matters what race or ethnic origin these "people" are/have. There are plenty of 100% Dutch folks who commit similar violent crimes.

But the percentage of violence among youths from the north African/middle east area is much higher, so it matters. To close eyes and mouth over it, helps no one.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:55 am

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 13):
the KNVB (Dutch FA) has cancelled all 32,000 amateur matches this weekend

WOW are there really over 700K youth FB players in NL?
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
petertenthije
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:28 am

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 21):
WOW are there really over 700K youth FB players in NL?

The 32,000 matches don't refer to youth matches only. Those are all the matches that are not done by paid footballers (eredivisie, jupiler league). So that figure includes plenty of games for adults.
Attamottamotta!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:14 am

Quoting Wolbo (Reply 13):
Where does all this anger come from?

I think that's fairly easy especially if you're an immigrant you have your way of life and then you have the way of life of the country you've moved to, often they aren't compatiable, you can't get a job, you live at home, your life sucks, so you become another angry young man.
 
bjorn14
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:58 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
you live at home,

But these 'yutes' were 15/16 years old so they sould be living at home.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
 
AF1624
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:42 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
you live at home
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 24):
sould be living at home

Technically speaking, even we live at home.

I'm guessing you both mean "their parents home".

An on the topic at hand, this politically correct nonsense about no mentionning country of origin, culture or ethnicity is ridiculous. Every one knows in France, Be and NL that the North-African minorities are the most trouble-making ones. It's so very clear. Now the question is how does one stop that. And it shouldn't include, necessarily, eradication, mass murder or mass deportation. That's where the racism would lie.

It would include, however, education for example. Amongst many other things, obviously.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Assistant Referee Beaten Up To Death In Amsterdam

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:36 pm

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 18):

I don't know if it is MadameConcorde's intention to insist on pointing out their ethnicity or not. However, if it is, she should have no problem in doing so because *it is* their ethnicity and you should not take the unfortunate typical attitude of throwing the racist card on the table, which you seem to be doing. It is the attackers' ethnicity and any one who lives in Europe or has travelled through Europe - particularly France, Belgium, and the Netherlands - knows full well that Moroccans, indeed Northern Africans in general, integrate a segment of the population that is *significantly more frequently* associated with trouble making and fear-mongering relative to most other segments. Notice that this is not saying that they are all trouble makers at all. Please, do understand that this is not what I am saying because I am sure most would be bound to imply such. However, *I am* saying that if you were to fit a curve across segments of the population and propensity to criminal incidence, this group, in that region, would positively slope that curve significantly more than other segments. This is true whether people like it or not and this is another very unfortunate incident that cements this theory/fact. It is not unnatural that Europeans are fed up with situations like this one that are directly associated with that segment of the population and, therefore, no one should feel fear or restrain oneself from pointing it out.

Speedbird741

Over here there are also issues with minor league football matches involving Turkish clubs. Often riot police has to be presen t at these amateur matches.
The problem is that a large part of the lesser educated Turkish and Arab teenage / early 20s male population has been adopting a "latino gansta" attitude, which they copied from American movies, based on American Latino street gangs.
One part of it is an extreme machismo attitude and an extreme sensitivity to anything considered to be an insult. The might be e.g. a referee´s decision. For them such insults have to be answered invariably with violence.
In fact, for them anybody not acting very aggressive and violent is a "victim" and therefore to be despised.
Very trivial incidents will be perceived as an insult ("What are you looking at (me, my girlfriend, my friend etc.) like this?" )and will cause violent retribution, often by the whole group.

If you are in neighbourhoods where such gangs prevail, better get out of the way if you see groups of such teenagers / young men.

Jan
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