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Mortyman
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UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:58 pm

UN calls on Israel to open nuclear program for inspection, backs talks on nuke-free Mideast

All the Arab nations and Iran had planned to attend the conference in mid-December in Helsinki, Finland, but the United States announced on Nov. 23 that it wouldn't take place, citing political turmoil in the region and Iran's defiant stance on nonproliferation. Iran and some Arab nations countered that the real reason for the cancellation was Israel's refusal to attend.

The resolution, approved by a vote of 174-6 with 6 abstentions, calls on Israel to join the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty "without further delay" and open its nuclear facilities to inspection by the International Atomic Energy Agency. Those voting "no" were Israel, the U.S., Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau.

Resolutions adopted by the 193-member General Assembly are not legally binding but they do reflect world opinion and carry moral and political weight.


Read more here:

http://news.yahoo.com/un-calls-israe...am-inspection-backs-054333091.html


Something tells me that we're not gonna see Israel do this anytime soon .... But the UN and world opinion is on a roll here ...
 
santi319
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:48 pm

I guess in a way the world finally is waking up against Israel's unfairness.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Those voting "no" were Israel, the U.S., Canada, Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau.

Reading these countries' names in reference to the U.S. and Israel always makes me chuckle.

If everybody is against me I might be doing something right.

If everybody is against me I might be doing something wrong, too.

Knowing the difference makes you a wise guy.   



David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:27 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Something tells me that we're not gonna see Israel do this anytime soon ...

There is no way Israel will ever allow UN inspector in their nuclear facilities. Not Dimona or anywhere.
Iran have opened their facilities to UN inspectors. I don't expect the same will apply with Israel.

Israel: "Do as I say but don't do as I do".

 Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
777way
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Marshall Islands, Micronesia and Palau.

They have replaced Britain, France and Germany LOL! It would be something if Canada drops out too and its place taken by Guam.
 
Powerslide
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:50 pm

Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons in anger. Only way that will happen is if its facing destruction or as a last resort. Iran on the other hand has idiots in government who have on numerous occasions called for the destruction of Israel. Iran must not get a bomb and I hope Israel eventually destroys their programs.

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
UN calls on Israel to open nuclear program for inspection, backs talks on nuke-free Mideast

With groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda running around chanting death to Israel, that won't happen.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting powerslide (Reply 5):
Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons in anger.

Wiping who, what, where from the map? Oh, you mean Israel Samson option...

Samson option: Israel's alleged deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a "last resort" against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence, and possibly against other targets as well.

138 UN members voted for Palestine and now 174 votes to Israel nuclear transparency... things are changing at high speed.

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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Aesma
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting powerslide (Reply 5):
Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons in anger.

Israel barely acknowledges it has nuclear weapons.

As for Iran, it has never threatened anyone with weapons it doesn't possess.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
TheCol
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:19 pm

Quoting powerslide (Reply 5):
With groups like Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda running around chanting death to Israel, that won't happen.

  

Surely this must be a joke...

It'll be a cold day in hell before we appease the Arab league by throwing Israel under the bus. When Iran and Co. decide to play nice, then the idea of a "nuke-free" Israel might be taken seriously. As long as there are nations, and their proxy forces, who refuse to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, this matter is off the table completely.

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
but they do reflect world opinion and carry moral and political weight.

  

This vote proves that the UN is just as spineless as the League of Nations was prior to WW2. It's come down to the wire with Iran, and the international community thinks it's a novel idea to achieve peace through appeasement. We all know how that worked out in the past, don't we?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
Iran have opened their facilities to UN inspectors.

Not all of them, just the ones they want the IAEA to see.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting powerslide (Reply 5):
Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons in anger.

Just the mere fact that they have them is clearly threatening to all the other nations in the Middle East.
 
TheCol
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:55 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):

Hardly. If that was true, there would be a huge nuclear arms race in the ME right now. The only other nation in the Middle East that currently has nukes is Pakistan, and that has nothing to do with Israel. The only members of the Arab league that "feel threatened" by it are those who don't acknowledge Israel's right to exist. Coincidence? I think not. The fact that this issue hasn't come up prior to Iran's nuclear development speaks volumes about how spineless the UN has become.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:39 pm

Quoting powerslide (Reply 5):
Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons in anger.

This really isn't a point. Neither has Mr. Hussein threatened the world before the "Coalition of the Willing" attacked Iraq about ten years ago.

The premise of the war was IAEA inspectors not being able to check Iraq's nuclear facilities.


To restore sanity, we should use any means necessary against Israel.


Signed,

David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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par13del
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:47 pm

So if the Arab nations are willing to attend a non-proliferaton conference with Israel, does Israel then use such an occasion to stand with all these member state representative and declare that they now accept Israel as a nation?

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
Samson option: Israel's alleged deterrence strategy of massive retaliation with nuclear weapons as a "last resort" against nations whose military attacks threaten its existence, and possibly against other targets as well.

Sounds like MAD, must have gotten that from the USA and NATO who had nukes as their first line in defense of the European empire against the Red tide coming from the east.
 
TheCol
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 8:58 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 12):
To restore sanity, we should use any means necessary against Israel.

What about Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:00 pm

Quoting par13del (Reply 13):
So if the Arab nations are willing to attend a non-proliferaton conference with Israel, does Israel then use such an occasion to stand with all these member state representative and declare that they now accept Israel as a nation?

No, this is an unnecessary diversion. Israel does not need be recognized as a nation by any other country.

We just want a world where everybody in possession of nuclear weapons is regularly checked by the IAEA.

An even playing field between all the countries in the middle east will make an official recognition of Israel as a state much more probable, though.

The strategy called "First you do X, then I will do a favour" has been tried time and again. It has failed.



David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
777way
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:02 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 10):

Pakistan is not part of Middle East by any definition.
 
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:06 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 14):

Easy. The 6th U.S. fleet will shell Jerusalem, and the 5th U.S. fleet will do the same against Tehran.

It's the sense of unfair treatment that stirs anger against Israel.



David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
TheCol
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:17 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 15):
Israel does not need be recognized as a nation by any other country.

No dice.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 15):
We just want a world where everybody in possession of nuclear weapons is regularly checked by the IAEA.

Every nation in the general assembly knows the score. They all know what the real intention was behind that motion.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 15):
An even playing field between all the countries in the middle east will make an official recognition of Israel as a state much more probable, though.

Are you really that naive?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:27 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 18):
Are you really that naive?

No. I'm just not willing to take an U.S. or an Israeli perspective. And I'm not using the Iranian too, for that matter.

Then tell me the reason why all the intellectuals and great minds of the world have not been able to solve the Middle East problem. We've had time since 1948 - and even more than that!

Something must have been gone wrong. Horribly wrong.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
But the UN and world opinion is on a roll here ...

And about time too.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 3):
Iran have opened their facilities to UN inspectors. I don't expect the same will apply with Israel.

Welcome to the world of "double standards" of Ok for some, just not for others  
Quoting powerslide (Reply 5):
Israel has never threatened to use its nuclear weapons in anger.

So what ?

The problem here Powerslide, is that Israel has them. If its ok for Israel, then its ok for Iran IMHO.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 5):
Iran on the other hand has idiots in government

One could argue the same about Israeli Government too, rum by scheming dishonest maniacs.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 5):
that won't happen.

I thought we'd been through this before.....?

Never say something "wont" happen.

You were probably one of those people, who figured the world sentiment would never tire of Israel, and the games she plays, well it sure looks that way now. with ever increasing momentum.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 8):
When Iran and Co.

Takes 2 to play nice. or is Israel exempt from that rule ?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 8):
This vote proves that the UN is just as spineless as the League of Nations was prior to WW2. It's come down to the wire with Iran, and the international community thinks it's a novel idea to achieve peace through appeasement. We all know how that worked out in the past, don't we?

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not TheCol, sentiments and attitudes in how the world deals with ME problems, this are changing and changing fast. Israel will continue to come under pressure, and right so.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 8):
Not all of them, just the ones they want the IAEA to see.

Just as was the case with Israel... Right ????

Quoting TheCol (Reply 14):
What about Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas?

Lets just deal with Israel first shall we

Quoting TheCol (Reply 18):
They all know what the real intention was behind that motion.

And that is ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
Powerslide
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 6):
138 UN members voted for Palestine and now 174 votes to Israel nuclear transparency... things are changing at high speed.

Ok so then what. The UN doesn't have the capacity to do anything other than whine and complain, we have covered this. It doesn't matter what they THINK, it matters what the DO. Basically, only the US has the power to project force around the world and until that changes the UN is a useless entity for the riff raff nations to justify a meaning on the world stage. Only the countries of NATO do any meaningful force projection around the world. Whether you agree with it or not.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 14):
What about Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas?

Some members of this forum justify their existence because of Israel's policies. Spineless really.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 17):
It's the sense of unfair treatment that stirs anger against Israel.

I think the Arab nations should sort themselves and their own internal matters first before going off and complaining about Israel. They have all the money in the world to build a decent society for themselves, but in the end they are blaming their problems on the Jews. I believe its jealously.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 19):
Then tell me the reason why all the intellectuals and great minds of the world have not been able to solve the Middle East problem.

Religion.
 
TheCol
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:42 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 19):
Then tell me the reason why all the intellectuals and great minds of the world have not been able to solve the Middle East problem. We've had time since 1948 - and even more than that!

Because the international community, as a whole, has never been willing to sacrifice their political and economic interests for peace. Unfortunately human life and dignity isn't worth much in the Middle East. That has been a regional problem as long as anyone can remember, and the international community is more than happy to benefit from it by prolonging the status quo.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
connies4ever
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:47 pm

Some are playing fast and loose with the facts in this thread. Everyone has the right to their opinion, but not their own facts.

To Reply 3: in fact, Israel did permit IAEA inspectors access to Dimona in the 80s. But they ran a game on the inspectors by constructing a phony control room and reprocessing centre to make it appear Dimona is much smaller than it actually is, hence fewer nukes.

To Reply 5: Israel doesn't need to sabre rattle w.r.t. the nuclear weapons it possesses. The mere fact of their existence poses a threat to any nation in the region.

To Reply 7: Israel does not barely mention the existence of their nuclear deterrent force, they dont mention it at all. This doctrine is callled "nuclear opacity".

To Reply 10: there is a nuclear arms race in the ME. Iran is clearly pursuing one. It is thought Turkey and SA have technology programs in place to give them that option, and Egypt under Mubarak the same. Pretty soon the world will have about forty-six nuclear powers.

To Reply 13, Israel is already recognized by Egypt and Jordan. Even Hamas has tacitly agreed to recognize the 1967 boundary.

To Reply 18, so, then, you agree with the principle that human rights can be violated, international law can be violated, with impunity, that this is a goodthing ?

Israel needs to adhere to the same standards as the great majority of nations. The sooner they do, the sooner this issue could be resolved. Ejecting Bibi would be a good start.
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Aesma
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:23 pm

Quoting powerslide (Reply 21):
Only the countries of NATO do any meaningful force projection around the world.

Russia seems to be projecting fine, and China just launched its first carrier. As for nuclear weapons, there are many on board of many nation's submarines.

May I remind you that most of NATO's nations did vote for this UN resolution ?

There was a time Israeli's air force flew Mirages, Mystères, Ouragans, Vautours. There was a time France was helping Israel start its nuclear program.

Now we voted many times in a row against Israel. How times change !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
TheCol
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:30 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not TheCol, sentiments and attitudes in how the world deals with ME problems, this are changing and changing fast. Israel will continue to come under pressure, and right so.

Yeah, everyone saw this coming a long time ago. The international community is pretty predictable about how they handle growing threats from countries like Iran. About as predictable as they were in the 1930's.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
Israel needs to adhere to the same standards as the great majority of nations. The sooner they do, the sooner this issue could be resolved.

The real intent behind motion, and why our country voted no, isn't simply to do with IAEA inspections. There's a bigger political game being played here.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
To Reply 10: there is a nuclear arms race in the ME. Iran is clearly pursuing one. It is thought Turkey and SA have technology programs in place to give them that option, and Egypt under Mubarak the same. Pretty soon the world will have about forty-six nuclear powers.

Israel has had nuclear weapons since the 1970's, and yet we haven't seen the rest of the Middle East arm themselves to the hilt. Then all of a sudden this becomes an issue over 30 years later when Iran decides to make a power play by flexing their muscles by proxy and starting their own nuclear program. This seems to point more to Iran than it does Israel. Why don't you ask Saudi Arabia and Jordan who they are more concerned about? Last time I checked, they weren't looking in Israel's direction.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
Even Hamas has tacitly agreed to recognize the 1967 boundary.

I'll believe it when I see it.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
To Reply 18, so, then, you agree with the principle that human rights can be violated, international law can be violated, with impunity, that this is a goodthing?

I don't follow. That wasn't the point I was trying to make.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 20):
Lets just deal with Israel first shall we

And maybe Iran will back off their nuclear program, and the whole world will be saved...

Yeah, that won't happen.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:35 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 25):
And maybe Iran will back off their nuclear program, and the whole world will be saved...

Yeah, that won't happen.

Exaaaactly, that's the mindset we need. First ask the other person to do some good things, then it's my turn. Really, that's the way how you build trust in the world.  

Remembers me a bit of the warning given when posting a message here:

"This forum is as good as you make it. Never post a message in anger. Take the high road and others will follow."


David

[Edited 2012-12-04 14:37:47]
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:40 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
There was a time France was helping Israel start its nuclear program.

Yes and Norway provided the heavy water in the beginning and also some technical equipment ...
 
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Aesma
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:42 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 25):
Israel has had nuclear weapons since the 1970's, and yet we haven't seen the rest of the Middle East arm themselves to the hilt. Then all of a sudden this becomes an issue over 30 years later

Actually the resolution's history dates back 30 years too, and there was already a winning vote in 2009. As for why other countries didn't arm themselves, it has a lot to do with us (the west) propping up most governments in the region... For example Iraq was also flying French planes and there was a nuclear plant being build there by us until Israel bombed it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
TheCommodore
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting powerslide (Reply 21):
Some members of this forum justify their existence because of Israel's policies. Spineless really.

Powerslide, its also spineless and stupid not to recognize that Israels policies will only lead to, and cause more and more aggression towards Israel, and more anti-sentiment.

Is that where Israel really wants to go ?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
Now we voted many times in a row against Israel. How times change !

        

I can see this happening more and more to. People who used to be silent on the Israeli/Palestinians issue, are now voicing there support for Palestine,and of going to the UN.

This is great to see, Finally.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 27):
Yes and Norway provided the heavy water in the beginning and also some technical equipment ...

     

Didn't know that Mortyman. Is Norway still a strong ally of Israel, or have things thawed off somewhat ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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par13del
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:20 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 15):
No, this is an unnecessary diversion. Israel does not need be recognized as a nation by any other country.

Ok, the Palestinians seemed to think that recognition however partial in the UN was something substantial.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
Israel needs to adhere to the same standards as the great majority of nations.
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 23):
The sooner they do, the sooner this issue could be resolved. Ejecting Bibi would be a good start.

During the cold war when many of the great nations were under the threat of a nuclear war many things were done which today we are adamantly opposed to, ones circumstances sometimes drives ones reactions, just ask Hamas, Hezbollah and yes, many Israelis.

Quoting powerslide (Reply 21):
Quoting TheCol (Reply 14):
What about Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, and Hamas?

Some members of this forum justify their existence because of Israel's policies. Spineless really.

Fortunately or unfortunately, it is that way, we have to deal with the consequences on both sides straight up, no putting head in a hole like the Ostrich and saying no truck is on the way.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:22 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
Didn't know that Mortyman. Is Norway still a strong ally of Israel, or have things thawed off somewhat ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_water#Norway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_nuclear_program

Norway got about half of the heavy water back from Israel some years ago. The other half ... the Israelis could not find ...


Not as strong as we used to be. I guess you can say that Norwegians in general wants peace for Israel, but don't beleave that the way they are going about things is the way to do it. Most Norwegias dissagree with the continued occupation of land and the missuse of power over the Palestinians and see it as counterproductive. Alot of Norwegians are also seriously annoyed with the US onesided support for Israel and think the EU is irresolute in this matter. The Israeli / Palestinian matter is an often debated matter and you will find people who are strongly for Israel and others who feel strongly for the Palestinians.

[Edited 2012-12-04 15:32:20]
 
damirc
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:29 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 27):
Yes and Norway provided the heavy water in the beginning and also some technical equipment ...

As usually in all things Middle East this one is as convoluted as it gets   It was the British that provided the heavy water for Dimona, Noratom (a Norwegian company) was just a front. However - the heavy water was originally produced by Norsk Hydro (so it was in fact Norwegian ). So in short Norway -> UK -> Norway -> Israel ...

D.
 
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Mortyman
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:39 pm

Quoting damirc (Reply 32):
As usually in all things Middle East this one is as convoluted as it gets It was the British that provided the heavy water for Dimona, Noratom (a Norwegian company) was just a front. However - the heavy water was originally produced by Norsk Hydro (so it was in fact Norwegian ). So in short Norway -> UK -> Norway -> Israel ...

Noratom was directly involved in the supply of heavy water to Israel's nuclear program. Protocols from 1958 shows that the Norwegian Labour party under the leadership of Prime Minister Einar Gerhardsen knew that Israel would use heavy water plutonium production with respect to nuclear weapons production. Noratom would also sell reactor components and other necessary technology in this regard.
 
damirc
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:42 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 33):
Noratom would also sell reactor components and other necessary technology in this regard.

I am not disputing that   Just pointing out that nothing is easy or normal in the Middle East. That sale I was refering:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/newsnight/4789832.stm

"Kelly discovered a charade was played out with the UK and Israeli delegations sitting in adjacent rooms while Noratom ferried separate contracts to and fro so Britain could say they hadn't signed a deal with Israel."

D.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:07 am

So wait, the jist of this whole situation is not to disarm Israel, it's just letting inspectors in? Did I get that right?

What is the outrage in that? Doesn't the US allow Russia in and vice versa?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
lewis
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:10 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
What is the outrage in that?

First, Israel will need to admit to having nukes. Second, Israel will have to agree to do what the international community requests it to do (some so called "rogue" states have previously agreed to such requests, even partly). Fail on both cases, obviously.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:15 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 36):
First, Israel will need to admit to having nukes

Big whoop?

Quoting lewis (Reply 36):
Second, Israel will have to agree to do what the international community requests it to do

What do you think this would be? I hate the fact that more countries are trying to acquire nukes, but I do have to admit, it is a major deterrent in the invasion of Israel. I disagree with a lot of what they do, but I'm not going to pretend that nuclear weapons have definitely helped deter full out aggression.

I'm also against Iran getting nukes in principle, but I disagree with using force to stop them. I don't see why they'd use nukes (even with that quote that was mistranslated) and am sure Iran is using nukes as an anti-invasion card. I do see them getting a bit bolder when they have nukes, but don't think they'll use them. I guess that's for another thread
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
lewis
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:21 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):

Big whoop?

It is for Israel, apparently! Silly, considering that the world knows that Israel has nuclear weapons and they still refrain from confirming it.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
What do you think this would be?

I would imagine inspecting the relevant facilities and estimating the nuclear capabilities of the country.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
I hate the fact that more countries are trying to acquire nukes, but I do have to admit, it is a major deterrent in the invasion of Israel. I disagree with a lot of what they do, but I'm not going to pretend that nuclear weapons have definitely helped deter full out aggression.

I don't think it is as much of a deterrent in the case of Israel. Israel is a small country surrounded by enemy states, the fallout from the use of nuclear weapons could still affect them, if they ever have to use them. It is very different than the US vs Russia, where both countries are pretty big and not that close to each other. Same goes for Iran, using nukes against Israel would definitely affect (and piss off) a large part of the Arab world.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:24 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):
I don't think it is as much of a deterrent in the case of Israel. Israel is a small country surrounded by enemy states, the fallout from the use of nuclear weapons could still affect them, if they ever have to use them. It is very different than the US vs Russia, where both countries are pretty big and not that close to each other. Same goes for Iran, using nukes against Israel would definitely affect (and piss off) a large part of the Arab world.

If worse came to worse, I'm sure they would use it. A country with some radiation is better than no country at all. At the very least, I don't think anyone wants to test that theory.
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 37):
I'm also against Iran getting nukes in principle,

I am not the biggest fan of Iran by any means, but If other countries have nukes, you can hardly say no to them can you ?

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):
It is for Israel, apparently! Silly, considering that the world knows that Israel has nuclear weapons and they still refrain from confirming it.

Unfortunately for Israel, these are the games they have decided to play...... leading to a great deal of mistrust from that nation.

Quoting lewis (Reply 38):
the fallout from the use of nuclear weapons could still affect them, if they ever have to use them.

Percisley the point. In most case it would be suicidal for Israel to use them, as they would suffer from any sort of nuke fall out, all over Israel and surrounds lands

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 39):
At the very least, I don't think anyone wants to test that theory.

Lets hope Bibi is thinking along the same lines !!      
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 12:49 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 39):
If worse came to worse, I'm sure they would use it.

I am sure all the settlers that have moved to Israel to find security will be thrilled to know that!
 
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:01 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 41):
I am sure all the settlers that have moved to Israel to find security will be thrilled to know that!

Why else would they have nukes?
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
Why else would they have nukes?

Because it makes them feel secure, even though using them would probably not be very safe for Israel either. Call me crazy, but I do not see why someone would leave the US or Europe and move to such a volatile place looking for security and a peaceful living. The way I see it, 99% of places where Jews live are much safer than Israel at the moment.
 
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:21 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 40):
I am not the biggest fan of Iran by any means, but If other countries have nukes, you can hardly say no to them can you ?

I would say you can absolutely say no. This isn't a group of kids bringing in cupcakes and having to share them with the class. It is a major weapon that some crazy nut could launch at any time. If a stable nation wanted to acquire a nuke I would say go for it. But the Iran government has shown little to prove they won't do something stupid with it. They hate the fact that Israel exists and if you get a leader crazy enough, who is to say he won't give the order to launch it on an unsuspecting nation. The fact that nukes even have to exist is a shame.
I say good for the UN. The fact that Israel's nuke program can remain such a secret program is beyond ridiculous. With that being said, I see little ever coming to fruition here. Even if Israel says nope, not going to happen, they aren't going to do a thing to make it happen. The only thing that will help is if the US steps in and says do it. But even then, they aren't under our control so they probably still won't do it. The only thing that might get them to open it up is some type of economic sanctions, and I don't see the US ever agreeing to that in the near future.
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 43):
If a stable nation wanted to acquire a nuke I would say go for it.

Stable for how long, and who says a nation is stable ?

What if a nation is stable today and not tomorrow ?

I can't see how we can have it both ways, realistically

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 43):
But the Iran government has shown little to prove they won't do something stupid with it.

Its only been rhetoric, and honestly speaking, which nation doesn't partake in this practice, especially in the ME

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 43):
The fact that nukes even have to exist is a shame.

You said it.
No argument there.

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 43):
The only thing that might get them to open it up is some type of economic sanctions, and I don't see the US ever agreeing to that in the near future.

Maybe not the near future, but it will happen, eventually.

Americans must be sick to the back teeth that their hard earned tax dollars are going to bankroll Israel. And I imagine the fiscal restraints that the US is under at then moment is making it increasingly tricky for legislators, to continue the justification of this on going funding.

No. i'm sure the Americans will tier of it one day.

Imagine the health care system you guys could have if all the money that currently goes towards propping up Israel, was tunneled into health, you'd by the envy of the world !   
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:50 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 24):
Why don't you ask Saudi Arabia and Jordan who they are more concerned about? Last time I checked, they weren't looking in Israel's direction.

Shame on them if true.

[Edited 2012-12-04 17:55:02]
 
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 1:54 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):

Stable for how long, and who says a nation is stable ?
What if a nation is stable today and not tomorrow ?

Very good questions.

However we put it - the only risk is if a suicidal regime gets the nukes. Suicidal in the sense it doesn't care/mind if they get nuked back once they deploy their nuke(s). And with that in mind, I'd concur with this:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 43):
But the Iran government has shown little to prove they won't do something stupid with it.

However - if I were to gamble I'd bet on the option that Iran is actually seeking the nuke to protect itself from outside interference (would like to see a correlation of resources invested into nuclear research in Iran with regards to the Iraq invasion in 2003).

Still - personally I'm against Iran having nukes. For no other reason that their regime in my mind is close to collapse, and once that happens they're in a far too volatile region to have nukes laying around while a revolution hapens. Easy that they end up in wrong hands.

D.

[Edited 2012-12-04 17:55:00]
 
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:02 am

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Stable for how long, and who says a nation is stable ?

What if a nation is stable today and not tomorrow ?

I can't see how we can have it both ways, realistically

I think it can be determined by the UN. Now I'm not the biggest fan of the UN, but if the rest of the world can determine the country is unfit the nukes should be taken for safety reason. You are right that any stable nation can be the next unstable one, but the majority of the nations that currently have them aren't going to go crazy with them. Not saying Iran would but I just don't have confidence Iran wouldn't do something stupid with them. The US, Russia, UK, China, and France have track records of stability with somewhat grounded leadership. I can't forsee them ever using nuclear weapons unless they are attacked with one. Iran, I just have a really uneasy feeling about.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Its only been rhetoric, and honestly speaking, which nation doesn't partake in this practice, especially in the ME

Nations certainly partake in rhetoric. I agree with you there. But Iran's has been a little more negative. Not trying to dig up old dirt, but you are talking about a nation that allowed US diplomats to be taken hostage and held for what, two years? I'm not trying to make this a US vs Iran battle but they certainly don't have a track record of excellence.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 44):
Americans must be sick to the back teeth that their hard earned tax dollars are going to bankroll Israel.

I think there are a few other nations that we are sick over. Israel personally, not so much. There is a lot of gray areas with Israel I don't agree with. Their hiding of their nuclear program is certainly one. They need to get their act together and this will hopefully be a positive first step.
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:26 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 45):
Shame on them if true.

Why, does a country looks for danger from one place only? Nope, they should keep there eyes open on all sources of danger.
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RE: UN: Asks Israel To Open Nuclear Program

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:30 am

But seeking help from Israel is the ultimate low for Saudi.

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