RussianJet
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Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:39 pm

Haven't seen this discussed, apologies if search has missed it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-New-York-train-Times-Square.html

I am disgusted. It appears there was nobody attempting to help this guy up of the track after some guy pushed him down there, and as a train arrives to mow him down, instead of helping one jerk decides to start taking pictures. I mean, seriously??

Surely this idiot could be charged with something. Or, is there more to it?

[Edited 2012-12-05 06:40:13]
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us330
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:44 pm

More to it--this article interviews several pulitzer prize winning photographers, and all generally say the same thing:
it wasn't the photographer's fault, it was the newspaper's fault for putting it on the front page. By going on the tracks to rescue someone else, you potentially put yourself in danger.
http://gawker.com/5965659/would-you-...tzer+winning-photographers-respond
 
RussianJet
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 2:48 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 1):
By going on the tracks to rescue someone else, you potentially put yourself in danger.

If that's the best anyone can come up with to defend someone who didn't try to help, then it's pathetic. The guy, if you look at the picture, had an arm on the platform - no clambering onto the tracks necessary in order to try pulling him up. Jeez, imagine if nobody anywhere took the slightest risk to help anyone anyway?? Pretty darn sad.
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Mir
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:33 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 1):
More to it--this article interviews several pulitzer prize winning photographers, and all generally say the same thing:
it wasn't the photographer's fault, it was the newspaper's fault for putting it on the front page.

Well, not quite. They say "we don't know the circumstances, it could be that the photographer was just too far away to be able to help". Which is what the photographer's excuse was, and while I find it a bit sketchy, I've got nothing to prove otherwise, so one has to take it at face value.

But yes, putting it on the front page of the newspaper was incredibly classless, and someone should lose their job for it.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
Quoting us330 (Reply 1):
By going on the tracks to rescue someone else, you potentially put yourself in danger.

If that's the best anyone can come up with to defend someone who didn't try to help, then it's pathetic.

That kind of logic happens all the time in rescue operations. If the risk to the rescuers is too high, they won't go.

-Mir
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xjramper
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 3:52 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
That kind of logic happens all the time in rescue operations. If the risk to the rescuers is too high, they won't go.

+1

Especially if the guy who just pushed him down there was still hanging around on the platform, I would be next if I tried to help the man up.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:04 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Well, not quite. They say "we don't know the circumstances, it could be that the photographer was just too far away to be able to help". Which is what the photographer's excuse was, and while I find it a bit sketchy, I've got nothing to prove otherwise, so one has to take it at face value.

      

Exactly. No point in jumping to conclusions without knowing all the circumstances, which we probably won't.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
That kind of logic happens all the time in rescue operations. If the risk to the rescuers is too high, they won't go.

       again.

I just had (more) explosives safety training for work. Basically, if we have a fire in the ordnance department, the fire department probably won't go in there until the fire extinguishes itself (obviously, assuming it's not about to blow up the whole neighborhood). And us employees are definitely not supposed to try and be heroes.
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RussianJet
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:15 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
That kind of logic happens all the time in rescue operations. If the risk to the rescuers is too high, they won't go.

-Mir
Quoting xjramper (Reply 4):
+1

Especially if the guy who just pushed him down there was still hanging around on the platform, I would be next if I tried to help the man up.

To a degree, of course risk is assessed. But it is rarely the case that there in literally no risk. Fine, if the guy was hanging around threatening others that would be an issue, but nowhere can I find such a suggestion. So fine, it may be speculation to an extent, but IF he wasn't around by then, and the guy had an arm on the platform to grab as appears to be the case, why wouldn't you help rather than start snapping away?

Also, even if you couldn't help, pretty reprehensible to be taking pictures like this and selling them.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 1):
By going on the tracks to rescue someone else, you potentially put yourself in danger.
http://gawker.com/5965659/would-you-...spond

They don´t have an emergency brake / stop signal switch accessible in the stations?
In Berlin ALL stations have emergency stop signal handles, which will cause a stop signal to appear in the tunnel before the station and cause the train to carry out an emergency braking maneuver.
http://whiteyberlin.files.wordpress.com/2011/07/026-notbremse.jpg
Also there are short circuit devices on each train and in each station, which can be used to shut down power to the third rail, but they require training.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cc/Berliner-U-Bahn-Kurzschliesser-und-Strompruefkasten.jpg/800px-Berliner-U-Bahn-Kurzschliesser-und-Strompruefkasten.jpg
(the box on the left is a warning device for track workers to show them if the third rail is live).

Jan

[Edited 2012-12-05 08:38:37]
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dl021
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 4:44 pm

Reports indicate the guy was hanging there for 15 seconds. That's an eternity in that situation and someone should have at least attempted to help pull the guy out. If you're 40 feet from it taking photos you're three seconds away from pulling then 5 seconds away from getting him out of danger.

Taking photos instead of helping is a trend and people are being taught that aid will come from some official source, and that taking matters into their own hands is a risk and liability. Recently a cop was assaulted in front of twenty bystanders....he was struggling for his life while people took video, no one even called 911. Two or three people could have gone to the cops aid and reduced the danger, but people are being taught to not fend for themselves or help others....they're being taught to let some authority figure do it.

It's a damned shame, and it's a foreshadowing of how we're going to be approaching problems from now and that's a long slide downwards since everyone expects to be rescued and no one feels that it's their individual
responsibility.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:02 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 8):
Taking photos instead of helping is a trend and people are being taught that aid will come from some official source, and that taking matters into their own hands is a risk and liability. Recently a cop was assaulted in front of twenty bystanders....he was struggling for his life while people took video, no one even called 911. Two or three people could have gone to the cops aid and reduced the danger, but people are being taught to not fend for themselves or help others....they're being taught to let some authority figure do it.

Exactly. My first reaction would be to pull the emergency handle to stop a possible train and then to get the person off the tracks safely.

Jan
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Mir
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
Fine, if the guy was hanging around threatening others that would be an issue, but nowhere can I find such a suggestion. So fine, it may be speculation to an extent, but IF he wasn't around by then, and the guy had an arm on the platform to grab as appears to be the case, why wouldn't you help rather than start snapping away?

Let's say you grab the man's arms and try to pull him out. He's heavy, though, and you can't do it. The train comes and hits the man, dragging him under, and since he doesn't let go of your arms, you get pulled down onto the tracks as well.

-Mir
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vikkyvik
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 11):
Yes, and let's say you go into the subway one day and get attacked by a herd of marauding homicidal giraffes - better stay out of the subway, I guess.

Did you have a reasonable belief that you would be attacked by a herd of marauding homicidal giraffes in the subway?

It's the same reason that it can be very dangerous to try and save a drowning person; you have a huge risk of being drowned by said person.

I'm not saying people shouldn't try and help; but it's not always cut-and-dry. And we all weren't there.
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Mir
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 9):
My first reaction would be to pull the emergency handle to stop a possible train and then to get the person off the tracks safely.

Except there is no emergency handle in NYC subway stations. The only emergency brake handles or cords that I'm aware of are on the trains themselves.

-Mir
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KaiGywer
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:26 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 12):
It's the same reason that it can be very dangerous to try and save a drowning person; you have a huge risk of being drowned by said person.

I'm not saying people shouldn't try and help; but it's not always cut-and-dry. And we all weren't there.

This. No further comment needed. Although it would have been better to do nothing than to take a picture just to get a front page photo and nice payday.
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eaa3
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:31 pm

I was riding the NY subway a couple of weeks ago and noticed an ad from the transport authority saying that about 50 people are hit by trains every year for various reasons.

I think they should build a gate system similar to the one on the Jubilee line in London. It might be costly but saving 50 people a year is worth it.

 
D L X
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:31 pm

Well the nice way to say it is this: declaring someone an idiot is jumping to conclusions.

Do you know how long a NYC subway station platform is? Any idea how close the photographer was to the victim? Any idea how close the train was? Any idea what it would take to get a large adult primate out of a 5 foot deep hole quickly? If you don't know all those things, you've jumped to conclusions.

If you want to criticize the Post for their sensationalization of the photo, that's fair game. But don't call the photographer an idiot when you don't have any information.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:17 pm

I agree the story sounds shady but you weren't there. It's just as back as the Monday morning quarterbacking police and pilots have to endure from random people on the internet.

Now if you were only criticizing him for taking a photo in the first place, I could see where you are coming from, it's kinda strange (even though a lot of people tend to do stuff like that.)

But to not be there, only get a little bit of information, then blast him for not saving the guy?
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RussianJet
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:17 pm

Well, we do know that he took pictures of a guy who was about to die after being shoved onto the track, then proceeded to sell said photos to a newspaper who gruesomely sensationalised this awful misfortune. That is fair qualification in itself is feel, all other speculation aside.
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Mir
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Well, we do know that he took pictures of a guy who was about to die after being shoved onto the track, then proceeded to sell said photos to a newspaper

He was working for that newspaper at the time.

-Mir
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D L X
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:32 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
Well, we do know that he took pictures of a guy who was about to die

Dude. For all you know, he thought he was taking a photo of someone about to be a hero.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
then proceeded to sell said photos to a newspaper

Do you actually know how the newspaper got the photo? If he was freelancing for them, they owned the rights to any and all photos that he took, regardless of whether he took this particular one.

This is how photographers make money. Don't begrudge him that.


As I said earlier, it is fair criticism to levy on the newspaper. But you didn't call the newspaper an idiot. You called the photographer an idiot.

[Edited 2012-12-05 11:35:06]
 
ALTF4
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 8:28 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 20):

  

Also, the man killed may have been intoxicated at the time, according to some reports. I'm sure most people on the platform didn't know if the drunk guy was the agressor or not, or if the bum was. I'd be hard-pressed to try to rescue an aggressor out of a dangerous situation, simply for fear of my own well-being.

Call me evil. I don't care.

Point is, we don't know what happened exactly. It is heartbreaking that a man died like that, but it could have been worse had somebody tried to rescue him.

What the newspaper did was tasteless - but they're in the business of making money by generating views. Ignore the newspapers if you don't like it.
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mham001
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 9:27 pm

If I was standing there, I would assume the man could have gotten himself up. Furthermore, there is room on those tracks for a person to hide between the platform and the wheels.

What isn't clear about the pictures is the speed of the train. Without being there, I couldn't spread blame for anything here, except the guy who pushed him.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:05 pm

Well, I guess we're not going to agree here, but I still find it highly distasteful, job or not.
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Silver1SWA
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:11 pm

This is one of those situations where NO ONE knows exactly how they will react in a situation like that. You can say what you would do in that situation, but whether or not you actually do it when faced with something like that can only be determined after you have been there.

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
Well the nice way to say it is this: declaring someone an idiot is jumping to conclusions.

Do you know how long a NYC subway station platform is? Any idea how close the photographer was to the victim? Any idea how close the train was? Any idea what it would take to get a large adult primate out of a 5 foot deep hole quickly? If you don't know all those things, you've jumped to conclusions.

If you want to criticize the Post for their sensationalization of the photo, that's fair game. But don't call the photographer an idiot when you don't have any information.

   Well said.
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:50 pm

Quoting eaa3 (Reply 15):
I think they should build a gate system similar to the one on the Jubilee line in London. It might be costly but saving 50 people a year is worth it.

Only a few stations on one line in London have that system.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:48 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
Well, I guess we're not going to agree here, but I still find it highly distasteful, job or not.

That's fine, but it doesn't mean you have to think the guy was an idiot.

Plenty of people do/say things that are distasteful to me. If I don't want to see it, I simply ignore it.

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 24):
This is one of those situations where NO ONE knows exactly how they will react in a situation like that. You can say what you would do in that situation, but whether or not you actually do it when faced with something like that can only be determined after you have been there.

  
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ltbewr
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 26):
Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 24):This is one of those situations where NO ONE knows exactly how they will react in a situation like that. You can say what you would do in that situation, but whether or not you actually do it when faced with something like that can only be determined after you have been there.

There might have been enough time to try to get the guy out before a train came in, but who knows. Many may freeze with such an event occurs and cannot help. Others will fear getting dragged off the platform or maybe the attacker could have as shoved any attempted saver onto the tracks with the other guy.

I am quite sure the train operator was traumatized and on medical leave, many who have that horrible experience have difficult in returning to their positions. I wish that was covered more.

As to the NY Post publishing this photo, don't forget this rag is owned by Rupert Murdoch and has a well established sensationalist tabloid style, but this was too far. Perhaps a few major advertisers will pull ads, a few less will buy a copy, the rest of the media bashing them and a few fired editors will mean they think twice of ever doing this again.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:30 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
Well, not quite. They say "we don't know the circumstances, it could be that the photographer was just too far away to be able to help". Which is what the photographer's excuse was, and while I find it a bit sketchy, I've got nothing to prove otherwise, so one has to take it at face value.

I'll agree with that his excuse was sketchy. I saw the interview he did on the Today show this morning. He made a valid point that right after the man was pushed on the tracks the man that did it was walking toward him so he didn't immediately react to move toward the man struggling.

But, then he went on to argue he didn't "sell" the photo, he "licensed" it, which sounded like something I'd expect a paparazzi to say.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 6):
Also, even if you couldn't help, pretty reprehensible to be taking pictures like this and selling them.

To be far to the photographer, he mentioned that after the man was hit and the train had stopped dozens of people were there shooting photos/video of the rescue effort. I'm sure many of those people saw the event happen.

Quoting dl021 (Reply 8):
Reports indicate the guy was hanging there for 15 seconds. That's an eternity in that situation and someone should have at least attempted to help pull the guy out

The photographer said that something between 45-60 seconds went by from the time he was thrown on the tracks to the time he was hit. During that time around (according to him) 100-150 people didn't move to save him. That is deplorable. Even if 1 crazy man is in the subway station, you would hope that 2-4 people out of 100-150 would step forward to overpower the assailant or save the man struggling for his life. But, if I was there with my family and the assailant was still around, I'll admit I would have protected them first.

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
Do you know how long a NYC subway station platform is? Any idea how close the photographer was to the victim?

According to him 150 feet.

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
Any idea how close the train was?

According to him 45-60 seconds went by before the train hit him.

It's been a while since I've been in the NYC subway. At that stop are the opposite direction tracks separated by a wall? The Downtown stops I remember weren't. Could the man on the tracks have jumped over to the other direction subway tracks? All accounts were that he may have been intoxicated though.
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Mir
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:25 am

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 28):
It's been a while since I've been in the NYC subway. At that stop are the opposite direction tracks separated by a wall? The Downtown stops I remember weren't. Could the man on the tracks have jumped over to the other direction subway tracks?

No, that's a station with two side platforms and four tracks (one on each platform and then two in the middle for express trains). There are just columns that separate each of the tracks, so he could have tried to go over to the express track, but that would have meant jumping over two third rails and going away from the apparent safety of the platform. So I can understand why he wouldn't have tried to do that in the heat of the moment.

-Mir
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jfk69
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:30 am

As none of us were there none of us can really judge. We all think that we would be the hero and push the crazy man out of the way while hauling the man off the tracks and then doing 3 back flips just to show off. 99 out of 100 people will sadly freeze and not know what to do. This crazed man ( who has since been caught) hung around for most the time the victim was on the tracks. The victim was also drunk and in a dazed state for most the time on the tracks. We do not know how long he was trying to get up and if you have taken the NYC subway before (which I do most days) the trains enter the station very fast.

NY is full of wackos that most of us try to steer clear and ignore, so to not see people running over is not a shock and I fault no one including the photographer. His first reaction was to reach for his camera because that is his job. If emergency personnel was on the platform then they would have helped as that is their job.

In regards to the NY Post I see it both ways. I am a post subscriber and get the paper delivered every morning. I know what it is and I know I am not reading the NY times. As disturbed as I was to see the picture on the post I am also ok with it because once again... It is the post and by them running it on the front page it has people allmover the world referencing the paper which is what the want. My problem is with all the war that is filmed by the news stations why is no one up in arms about that? Why is no one up in arms at the news stations showing the NY Post cover and spending a fair amount of time talking about it... Get pissed a them as well for continuing the story and not letting it die.
 
D L X
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:00 am

Quoting jfk69 (Reply 30):
His first reaction was to reach for his camera because that is his job.

This is one of the most important points on the thread. The OP is angry at the photographer for doing what a photographer does: photograph newsworthy events.

What I don't understand is the recalcitrance about it -- now that it is clear that the photographer is neither an idiot nor malicious, and very likely could not have even done anything to help in the first place, why one digs in his heels continuing to malign the man is beyond me.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 28):
Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
Do you know how long a NYC subway station platform is? Any idea how close the photographer was to the victim?

According to him 150 feet.

An eyewitness in a stressful situation usually cannot be trusted to correctly measure time and distance. Wikipedia says the platform is between 500 and 600 feet. (!)

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 28):
Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
Any idea how close the train was?

According to him 45-60 seconds went by before the train hit him.

Again, an eyewitness in a stressful situation usually cannot be trusted to correctly measure time and distance. We've probably all been there in those moments where as adrenaline kicks in, the brain starts working on overdrive to deal with a stressful situation. This is the phenomenon of "time standing still."

More information about the subway stations in New York: the platform is at least 4 feet deep.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/img/cars/sheet-r143.jpg
(Note that the height from the top of the rail to the floor of the train is 3' 10" and a rail is another 4" on top of that.)


There's not a chance in hell I'd jump down from a subway platform to save someone who fell. Then there would be two victims. But hey, if someone thinks he can jump down 4 feet, help lift an adult male human over a 4 foot wall, and then climb this 4 foot wall to safety himself, all within 30 seconds as a train bears down on him, good luck. But I'd think most people would admit that he probably can't.

[Edited 2012-12-05 18:04:16]
 
Speedbird741
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:12 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
declaring someone an idiot is jumping to conclusions

No it is not. The photographer is an idiot. In fact, the photographer is a heartless, unsensible, massive imbecile.

Quoting D L X (Reply 16):
Do you know how long a NYC subway station platform is? Any idea how close the photographer was to the victim? Any idea how close the train was? Any idea what it would take to get a large adult primate out of a 5 foot deep hole quickly? If you don't know all those things, you've jumped to conclusions.

I am sorry, but none of those questions need to be answered for RussianJet to accuse the man of being an idiot. The only question that needs to be answered is the one of whether or not the picture was taken. Clearly, it was taken and taken by the idiot. A man who looks at another man who is about to die and has the lack of sensible discernment, of heart, and of compassion for the other man and his family, and who decides to take a picture of the moment is an idiot, an imbecile. In fact, he is the kind of person that we do not need in society. Regarding the questions that you pose. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that the photographer was 1 kilometre away from the man on the track, that the train was 1 metre away from the man on the track, and that it would be physically impossible to remove the man from the tracks. Even at these extreme assumptions, I cannot accept that any decent person would take a second to think about taking a picture. Running towards the man on the track, calling 911, shouting about what was happening; all of these actions, useless as they may have been, would have been a decent thing to do in that situation. Thinking about taking a picture and actually taking a picture is a sick, vile, and heartless thing to do in that situation. Standing silent and still would have been more noble than taking that picture. As for publishing the picture, I feel it best if I don't even speak about that. Thus, stating that the photographer is an idiot is itself a great understatement. The photographer is a much, much worse human being than the average idiot.

Speedbird741
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RussianJet
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:22 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 31):
This is one of the most important points on the thread. The OP is angry at the photographer for doing what a photographer does: photograph newsworthy events.

What I don't understand is the recalcitrance about it -- now that it is clear that the photographer is neither an idiot nor malicious, and very likely could not have even done anything to help in the first place, why one digs in his heels continuing to malign the man is beyond me.

I will confess certainly that I could without doubt have worded the thread title better - but then, if it stirred a debate of opposing opinions then it wasn't entirely without purpose.

Nonetheless, though it may be his job to take pictures, I simply can't accept that it's ok to snap away at someone in that situation. He doesn't appear to have great justification other than 'well it's my job' - and perhaps I can accept that instinct was a factor stemming from that, but I still don't like it. Like I say though, I doubt we'll find a great deal of common ground on this one.
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 32):
No it is not. The photographer is an idiot.

Well, damn! If you say so, he must be.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 32):
I am sorry, but none of those questions need to be answered for RussianJet to accuse the man of being an idiot. The only question that needs to be answered is the one of whether or not the picture was taken.

So... taking a photo of a disaster makes you an idiot?

I guess the guy that videoed the Hindenburg, AA179, and the planes crashing into the WTC were all idiots. Never mind that all three of those videos helped us figure out what happened.

And as I said earlier (though I doubt you saw it), for all you know, this photographer thought he was about to capture a photo of someone becoming a hero.

Here's what you need to understand clearly: the man that took the photo is a photojournalist. Photojournalists do not take photos because they are nice to look at. They take photos to document what happens, particularly in newsworthy events, which surely even you can agree this was. This man did his job.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 32):
Running towards the man on the track, calling 911, shouting about what was happening; all of these actions, useless as they may have been, would have been a decent thing to do in that situation.

What report did you read that said that none of those things happened?

I think you've come into this conversation half-cocked.

[Edited 2012-12-05 18:32:24]
 
lewis
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:27 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 32):
A man who looks at another man who is about to die and has the lack of sensible discernment, of heart, and of compassion for the other man and his family, and who decides to take a picture of the moment is an idiot, an imbecile.
Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 32):

So that is the opinion you have of journalists and photographers who cover war zones, disaster-hit areas or any other place/situation where people die before their eyes or suffer because of what has happened to them?
 
Speedbird741
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:41 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
I guess the guy that videoed the Hindenburg, AA179, and the planes crashing into the WTC were all idiots.

D L X, sincerely, do you genuinely believe that any of those three events are comparable to what is being discussed here? Do you believe that the connection this photographer developed whilst looking at a person about to die from a couple of feet away is as personal as the connection that was developed between whoever photographed/videoed those three events and those inside the aircraft, for example? I cannot conceive how you can possibly compare this with ANY of those three events on the terms that you are arguing for.

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
for all you know, this photographer thought he was about to capture a photo of someone becoming a hero.

Yes, of course that's what he believed to be photographing.

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
Here's what you need to understand clearly: the man that took the photo is a photojournalist. Photojournalists do not take photos because they are nice to look at. They take photos to document what happens, particularly in newsworthy events, which surely even you can agree this was. This man did his job.

I have absolutely no need to understand any of those points. If the man's job involves doing something as heartless as taking a picture of another man about to die, then you need someone with human qualities lower than those of an average idiot to do that job.

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
What report did you read that said that none of those things happened?

No report at all. And, again, no report is needed. We know the picture was taken and all that I am arguing is that the time he allotted to take the photograph would have been better spent doing any of those three things or standing silent and still.

Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
You're in the same lot as the OP. You've jumped to conclusions.

A bit hypocritical to accuse others of jumping to conclusions without knowing in full what took place when you are defending the photographer based on his professionalism without also knowing in full what took place.

Speedbird741
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Speedbird741
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:50 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 35):
So that is the opinion you have of journalists and photographers who cover war zones, disaster-hit areas or any other place/situation where people die before their eyes or suffer because of what has happened to them?

No, Lewis, it is not. I can tell you that it is not the kind of thing that I would do or like to do, but I will not tell you that my opinion regarding "journalists and photographers who cover war zones, disaster-hit areas" is the same as my opinion of this particular photographer. The explanation is simple and it is that I cannot see how standing a few feet from a man about to be run over by a train is comparable to the examples you give.

Speedbird741
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Mir
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 2:53 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 36):
all that I am arguing is that the time he allotted to take the photograph would have been better spent doing any of those three things or standing silent and still.

It's very difficult to argue that him just standing there and doing nothing would be better than trying to document what happened. At least he made himself somewhat useful rather than just standing there and doing nothing. Whether he could have made himself more useful, that's hard to say.

If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at the editors who put the photo in the paper (and on the front page at that). Just because the picture was taken doesn't mean it needed to be shared with the whole world.

-Mir
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canoecarrier
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:07 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
It's very difficult to argue that him just standing there and doing nothing would be better than trying to document what happened. At least he made himself somewhat useful rather than just standing there and doing nothing. Whether he could have made himself more useful, that's hard to say.

If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at the editors who put the photo in the paper (and on the front page at that). Just because the picture was taken doesn't mean it needed to be shared with the whole world.

I think there's a lot of blame to go around. Because the photographer took the photo he's getting the brunt of it, but there were many other people there that could have attempted to lend a hand to the guy on the tracks. I don't think anyone is advocating that someone should have jumped down and tried to save him, but a couple men could have pulled a small Asian man to safety. And there were many other men around.
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lewis
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:19 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 37):
The explanation is simple and it is that I cannot see how standing a few feet from a man about to be run over by a train is comparable to the examples you give.

Ok here is another one, not from a distance.



So what is the difference here? Is it because it is NYC vs Baghdad, Kabul, Saigon or any other far away place where photographers capture someone getting killed or already dead? Do you consider the photographer of the above being disrespectful of this man's life, family, kids? Or is it OK because he is a Pulitzer prize-winning and famous photojournalist?
 
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:16 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 40):

Lewis, however different those two men and their motivations and stories may have been from those in this train story, and however impacting that photograph may be, my point remains unchanged. Photos like the one you post should not exist. The motivation to take photographs of such intensity such as the one you posted is something that I cannot understand. I cannot understand why people find themselves enthralled looking at them and I cannot understand how photographers justify taking such photographs to be exhibited to hundreds of thousands of viewers. Spreading stories and making an impact across the world can be done without having to propagate horror and evil laden moments. If you don't know his story, look up the story of Kevin Carter as it is, unfortunately, somewhat relevant to what we are discussing.

Quoting Mir (Reply 38):
If you want to be pissed at someone, be pissed at the editors who put the photo in the paper (and on the front page at that). Just because the picture was taken doesn't mean it needed to be shared with the whole world.

Mir, that is the great problem. A photographer who takes such a photograph is making a conscious decision to accept that that photograph is going to be exposed with great likelihood. The only way the photograph is not going to be exposed is if the author pretended that it was never taken, which he did not do. That decision is what troubles me the most.

Speedbird741
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vikkyvik
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:30 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 32):
Even at these extreme assumptions, I cannot accept that any decent person would take a second to think about taking a picture.

Well then consider that he might not have thought about it. Instinct can be a strange thing, and your brain tends not to work too well when faced with extremely stressful situations.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 36):
Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
for all you know, this photographer thought he was about to capture a photo of someone becoming a hero.

Yes, of course that's what he believed to be photographing.

It's as valid an assumption as any that you've made.

Look, ultimately, what Mir said is perfectly valid. NO ONE knows what they're going to do in that situation until you're in it. Even then, you may not know what you're about to do.

That's why there are police/emergency/fire/military/etc. who are trained to deal with emergency situations.

To be honest, if you can't accept that any decent person might do that or something like it, I think you may be surprised at how many indecent people there are in the world.
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lewis
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:35 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 41):

Lewis, however different those two men and their motivations and stories may have been from those in this train story, and however impacting that photograph may be, my point remains unchanged. Photos like the one you post should not exist. The motivation to take photographs of such intensity such as the one you posted is something that I cannot understand. I cannot understand why people find themselves enthralled looking at them and I cannot understand how photographers justify taking such photographs to be exhibited to hundreds of thousands of viewers. Spreading stories and making an impact across the world can be done without having to propagate horror and evil laden moments. If you don't know his story, look up the story of Kevin Carter as it is, unfortunately, somewhat relevant to what we are discussing.

Don't get me wrong, I could NEVER do something like that, I just do not have the stomach for it. And, since I do know who Kevin Carter is (I am a fan of photojournalism), I think that he didn't have the stomach for what he saw and photographed either. But, in the end, a section of photojournalism does work with such "subjects" if you may call it that and I would not go as far as saying "they should not exist". Would you say the same thing about a book that you personally find vulgar or distasteful? I hope not.

Photojournalism is about showing the world what is happening, no matter how strong the emotions that it may cause are. Such photos are meant to provoke and even disturb. The impact that these photos make across the world cannot be surpassed by text or just storytelling. After all, a picture is worth a thousand words. Things like the scene portrayed above happen around the world on a daily basis and won't stop happening just because a person does not document it in the form of a photograph. Without such pictures, people just do not pay attention, even if they are fully aware that it is happening. Such pictures create the biggest impact of them all in terms of showing the world what happened. Yeah, the man dying in the subway station may not have been an event worthy of being accompanied by a gruesome photo but morally speaking, it is not different at all.

I guess in the end it is a matter of personal taste, and at least you are consistent in your view. Most of the people that went against the photographer in the train story would find nothing wrong with the picture I posted above, they would find it bold but they would never tell the photographer that he/she should be "ashamed of themselves" for taking it.
 
AR385
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:45 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 41):
The motivation to take photographs of such intensity such as the one you posted is something that I cannot understand. I cannot understand why people find themselves enthralled looking at them and I cannot understand how photographers justify taking such photographs to be exhibited to hundreds of thousands of viewers.

The above is perfectly valid because you are talking about you and about what you don´t understand. But this:

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 41):
Photos like the one you post should not exist.

That is much bigger and what you are doing is advocating censorship. I don´t agree with the photograph or with the publishing of it, but I am not going to go and decide for other people what they can photograph, or tell tabloids what they can publish or not. Nor will I like it if anybody comes and tells me that I am not right in my mind for wishing certain photographs be taken.
 
Speedbird741
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:17 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 42):
I think you may be surprised at how many indecent people there are in the world

I grew up in the middle of one of the greatest, longest, and most destructive civil wars in modern history. I have a pretty good idea of what indecency is and have witnessed a fair share of moments and sights that I am thankful few people have had to be exposed to. Maybe it is because of having witnessed and heard of things that I might have been better off without hearing or seeing that I loathe the nature of these photographs so much.

Quoting lewis (Reply 43):

Lewis, I will not and cannot contest anything that you wrote there. I understand the nature of the job and I understand how pictures tell stories and make an impact better than a million words. But, as you say, some pictures, the very horror laden ones, demand "stomach" to take and I just happen to believe that having the stomach to take such pictures tells something about the photographer. That is all that I am trying to express. In the end, and as you say, it is all a matter of taste and opinion, and I hope the family of the man in front of the train can cope with the existence of that picture as best as they can.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 44):
That is much bigger and what you are doing is advocating censorship

You do seem to an expert at flinging heavy concepts such as racism and censorship on the table. Wishing a given picture did not exist is not equal (unequal, in other words) to advocating censorship. To advocate censorship I would have written something like "photojournalism should be banned" or "taking pictures like this one should be prohibited", which I did not.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 44):
Nor will I like it if anybody comes and tells me that I am not right in my mind for wishing certain photographs be taken

Which should be no impediment for anyone to tell you that all day long.

Speedbird741
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D L X
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:41 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 36):
D L X, sincerely, do you genuinely believe that any of those three events are comparable to what is being discussed here?

ABSOLUTELY! You just do not want to accept that because it does not align with your desired conclusion. The only way they are different are in the magnitude. But that doesn't mean that tigers and tabbies aren't both cats.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 36):
Do you believe that the connection this photographer developed whilst looking at a person about to die from a couple of feet away is as personal as the connection that was developed between whoever photographed/videoed those three events and those inside the aircraft, for example?

Respectfully, I have no idea what this sentence means.

If you mean to say that the subway photographer was a few feet away, then your exaggeration is not worthy of reply. If you mean that the photographer had a personal connection with the deceased, please be serious. This was Times Square Station, New York City, during the afternoon. There were probably a thousand people between the photographer and the victim.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 36):
I cannot conceive how you can possibly compare this with ANY of those three events on the terms that you are arguing for.

They're all photos and videos taken of events where the subjects were about to die, just like this event.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 36):
I have absolutely no need to understand any of those points.

Actually, yes you do. If you want to comment intelligently on photojournalism, you should know what it is. It is not to make pretty pictures, or even photos that are pleasant. It is a photojournalist's job to record events, even if they are disturbing.

I thought at first that your problem with this guy is that he didn't help. Now I'm thinking it's that you think tragedy should simply not be photographed. I think you will find yourself in the minority, and you will certainly lose the support for classifying the photojournalist that captures tragedy as an idiot.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 36):
Quoting D L X (Reply 34):
What report did you read that said that none of those things happened?

No report at all. And, again, no report is needed.

Sir, you accused someone of doing nothing to help when you don't know jack about what happened. Unless you were a witness (in which case I'd ask what YOU did to help), yes, you in fact do need a report before you accuse someone of doing nothing.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 44):
That is much bigger and what you are doing is advocating censorship.

  

Quoting lewis (Reply 43):
Such photos are meant to provoke and even disturb.

I'll go one better:

silencing such photos do no service to the public. The world is provocative and disturbing at times, and it gets no less so by whitewashing it and hiding what happened from the public.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 39):
a couple men could have pulled a small Asian man to safety.

So, now he's a "small Asian man?"

The amount of assuming on this thread is truly something.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 36):
A bit hypocritical to accuse others of jumping to conclusions without knowing in full what took place when you are defending the photographer based on his professionalism without also knowing in full what took place.

No. I've never assumed anything. For all I know the photographer is actually an evil, depraved man. But there is exactly zero evidence of that, and I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he is.

[Edited 2012-12-05 21:51:43]
 
lewis
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:53 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 44):

But, as you say, some pictures, the very horror laden ones, demand "stomach" to take and I just happen to believe that having the stomach to take such pictures tells something about the photographer.

I don't think it says something negative about the photographer. It is just another job that needs to be done by someone. I also think that I could never work in a morgue for obvious reasons. I do know one person that does and he has no problem with opening up human bodies on a daily basis. He is just a normal person, I don't judge his "insensitivity" to what he sees day in day out.

Quoting D L X (Reply 45):
Quoting lewis (Reply 43):
Such photos are meant to provoke and even disturb.

I'll go one better:

silencing such photos do no service to the public. The world is provocative and disturbing at times, and it gets no less so by whitewashing it and hiding what happened from the public.

Agreed, for me the disturbing part is that all those things have happened and will keep happening around the world and not the fact that there is photographic proof to go along.
 
AR385
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:04 am

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 44):
You do seem to an expert at flinging heavy concepts such as racism and censorship on the table.

I call it the way I see it. If it bothers you, you are free to ignore my posts.

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 44):
Which should be no impediment for anyone to tell you that all day long.

You can tell me whatever you want all day long. But the following quotes show that

Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 31):
In fact, he is the kind of person that we do not need in society.
Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 31):
As for publishing the picture, I feel it best if I don't even speak about that.
Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 31):
The photographer is a much, much worse human being than the average idiot.

your opinion on the matter is essentially that certain things should not be available to the public. And I do not need to be an "expert" as you say, to call that "heavy concept" censorship.
 
Speedbird741
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:14 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 45):
you accused someone of doing nothing to help when you don't know jack about what happened

I made no such accusation. I only accused the photographer of allotting time to take a photograph rather than trying to help further or trying to help at all.

Quoting D L X (Reply 45):
I thought at first that your problem with this guy is that he didn't help

You don't need to think. You only need to read what I am writing in very plain and clear terms.

Quoting D L X (Reply 45):
I've never assumed anything. For all I know the photographer is actually an evil, depraved man. But there is exactly zero evidence of that, and I'm not going to jump to the conclusion that he is.

Yes, you have. You have assumed the man to be a professional and to act on his professional requirements and you have assumed that:

Quoting D L X (Reply 30):
it is clear that the photographer is neither an idiot nor malicious
Quoting D L X (Reply 45):
Respectfully, I have no idea what this sentence means.

Then I'll do us both a favour and stop here with this little discussion. If you can't understand something so simple as the *screaming* difference between filming any of the three events you mention and looking at a man's face when he is about to be run over by a train, and if you can't understand how much more personal it is, then we have nil values in common and any further writing would be a waste of keyboard.

Speedbird741
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Idiot Takes Photos Of Man On Subway Tracks

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:38 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Dude. For all you know, he thought he was taking a photo of someone about to be a hero.


You cant be serious right?

Quoting D L X (Reply 30):
This is one of the most important points on the thread. The OP is angry at the photographer for doing what a photographer does: photograph newsworthy events.
Quoting Speedbird741 (Reply 31):
I am sorry, but none of those questions need to be answered for RussianJet to accuse the man of being an idiot. The only question that needs to be answered is the one of whether or not the picture was taken. Clearly, it was taken and taken by the idiot. A man who looks at another man who is about to die and has the lack of sensible discernment, of heart, and of compassion for the other man and his family, and who decides to take a picture of the moment is an idiot, an imbecile. In fact, he is the kind of person that we do not need in society. Regarding the questions that you pose. Let us assume, for the sake of argument, that the photographer was 1 kilometre away from the man on the track, that the train was 1 metre away from the man on the track, and that it would be physically impossible to remove the man from the tracks. Even at these extreme assumptions, I cannot accept that any decent person would take a second to think about taking a picture. Running towards the man on the track, calling 911, shouting about what was happening; all of these actions, useless as they may have been, would have been a decent thing to do in that situation. Thinking about taking a picture and actually taking a picture is a sick, vile, and heartless thing to do in that situation. Standing silent and still would have been more noble than taking that picture. As for publishing the picture, I feel it best if I don't even speak about that. Thus, stating that the photographer is an idiot is itself a great understatement. The photographer is a much, much worse human being than the average idiot.


I stood up and applauded after reading this. It needs to be reposted everywhere this debate is going on.

Bottom line this man took a breathing amazing awe-inspiring photo while trading in all of his common decency and humanity to do it. This to me is a perfect example of people putting everything in front of being decent human beings to each other.
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