RussianJet
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Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:42 pm

Relax Washington, you can poseess up to an ounce without penalty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-20621210

Good or bad thing? The long-term plan of selling and taxing, and allowing posession of moderate amounts seems pretty sensiblbe to me.

Also, is federal government going to come and ruin the party?
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mbmbos
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:06 pm

I hope this is the beginning of the end to marijuana prohibition. And I hope the federal government stays out of it and let's Washington proceed with this experiment.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:31 pm

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 1):
I hope this is the beginning of the end to marijuana prohibition. And I hope the federal government stays out of it and let's Washington proceed with this experiment.

I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers. Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

Of course the donut shops will LOVE it. Look at all the business they do with cops, and now you have cops on munchies??? Cool!
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DocLightning
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:33 pm

I am really curious to know why Mr. Obama "clarified" (i.e. changed) his views on marijuana enforcement in the middle of his last term.

I have asked a friend of mine who works for him...and got no answer.

Is it that he saw the Twinkies shortage coming in advance and was afraid that marijuana legalization during a Hostess liquidation would lead to rioting?  

Seriously, it makes no sense. In fact, if there is one single issue that has started to gather broad bipartisan support, it's that the War on Drugs has failed and is a colossal waste of time, money, and resources. Pat Robertson even came out in favor of legalization. Now when Pat Robertson and Barney Frank can agree on an issue, it might just have some merit.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:36 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
I have asked a friend of mine who works for him...and got no answer.

He probably forgot the question.
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mbmbos
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers. Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

Wow! How many unsubstantiated stereotypes can you cram into one paragraph?

It has long been a myth that pot smokers are losers even though there's plenty of evidence to the contrary. I've worked in the legal industry for over twenty years and I can tell you a substantial number of high achieving, blue chip lawyers (read: partners) imbibe regularly. And of course, the meme that a large portion of the population is parasitic, living off the hard work of the salt-of-the-earth and moral man, has to be interjected.
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Aaron747
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs

This is simply not a universal claim for people who use it as a stress reducer, sleep aid, regular enhancement to lovemaking, or anything of the sort.

My dad is in his late 50s, is an senior VP of South Asia/SE Asia marketing for a global software giant, (also runs a data storage consultancy and medical imaging device distribution network throughout Thailand, Malaysia, and Singapore), and uses marijuana almost daily. Many of his friends, the financier in HK, the rare earths sales VP in Australia, and on down the line have lifestyles that mirror his.
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lewis
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:44 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers. Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

That is such a bad stereotype. First you automatically assume that people who smoke pot are some kind of loser hippies who can barely work at a fast food restaurant flipping burgers. Almost all the people I know who smoke pot are not (they were when they were students maybe), all of them have good jobs, they perform very well at them and are better financially than your average American, you wouldn't be able to tell if you just met them. You also assume that legalization will automatically make everyone want to smoke pot. I got news for you, no matter where you are and whether it is illegal or not, if you want to get your hands on some pot it is as easy as getting chewing gum, just through illegal channels.
 
BMI727
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:47 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers.

They might just cash their welfare checks and call their dealer. But let's be fair to it and recognize that most of those people would be mostly useless anyway and being stoned might actually help keep them off the streets. Let's not pretend that everyone who smokes pot is a lazy stoner knocking back Doritos. Plenty of professionals and generally productive members of society use or have used drugs.

There's a lot of truth in the stoner stereotype. But it's utterly ridiculous to think that these people will see their IQ's jump by twenty points and suddenly become capable professionals with healthy work ethics. They'll just be lazy people without drugs. Nor will legalization of marijuana turn our society into one that consists principally of ushaven people playing Call of Duty and eating Funyuns rather than being busy at productive efforts.

Save law enforcement the effort of trying to stop a mostly meaningless and largely unstoppable crime which is for the most part completely malum prohibitum. Now if only we could take care of speeding too.

Frankly, your attitude seems to be straight from the 1950s, to which I can only add that you should make sure the black people are out of town by sundown and beware of homosexuals who may come to prey on you and corrupt you.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

Wouldn't matter one bit. I'm sure employees of Boeing and pretty much every other company are allowed to drink although being drunk at work is certainly frowned upon. I imagine that they will not take too kindly to having people high at work either.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Thu Dec 06, 2012 11:05 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

Exactly the same as I feel now, considering that far more people likely smoke weed than you probably think. And with the majority of them, you wouldn't know it to talk to them, work with them, etc.

Frankly, I'd feel worse knowing that any engineer/assembler/whatever can go get sh*t-faced every night, and go to work hungover the next day.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Frankly, your attitude seems to be straight from the 1950s, to which I can only add that you should make sure the black people are out of town by sundown

Well, isn't it the blacks smoking the weed anyway?
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:00 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Wouldn't matter one bit. I'm sure employees of Boeing and pretty much every other company are allowed to drink although being drunk at work is certainly frowned upon. I imagine that they will not take too kindly to having people high at work either.

Maybe, but I do have some experience in a couple of European countries where pot is legal or at least tolerated, and there were an awful lot of people, both in school and in their places of work who were basically buzzed all the time - smoking 5-10 joints per day, starting the first thing in the morning.

I know that there are a lot of studies that say that there are no lasting effects. But I have also personally seen some of these people literally fall apart before my eyes over a period of years - their speech is more slurred than it was a few years ago, their careers go nowhere (or they keep getting fired), and they just don't seem to give a shit. So I take these studies with a grain of salt. I've met my share of alcoholics as well, and they seem to be able to pass unnoticed much easier than the potheads.

That's my personal experience, and take that for whatever it's worth.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:01 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs,

I think people like this have a motivation and/or motivation problem rather than a marijuana problem. I know plenty of soft core marijuana users that are normal people. Though I think there have been studies that suggest smoking in your teens does have negative affects.
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 12:24 am

I'm in favor of MJ decriminalization mostly due to the hypocrisy around its criminalization at the same time booze is legal by the gallon/case/pallet/truckload/etc and prescription drugs (a big money maker for Big Pharma) are widely abused.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs, and start telling themselves "it must be discrimination!" and start demanding affirmative action for dopers.

How does that differ from boozers or pillheads?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
Boeing will no longer be able to not hire a structural engineer because the guy is a pothead - how does that make you feel when boarding their jets?

How do you know they aren't weed smokers already?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
They might just cash their welfare checks and call their dealer.

There's packies (liquor stores) next to check cashing stores already, so it has nothing to do with MJ.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I know that there are a lot of studies that say that there are no lasting effects. But I have also personally seen some of these people literally fall apart before my eyes over a period of years - their speech is more slurred than it was a few years ago, their careers go nowhere (or they keep getting fired), and they just don't seem to give a shit.

Absent of a control group, this means squat. The same people could be in the same situation with or without pot, with or without booze, with or without prescription pills, etc.
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TSS
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:51 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Frankly, your attitude seems to be straight from the 1950s, to which I can only add that you should make sure the black people are out of town by sundown and beware of homosexuals who may come to prey on you and corrupt you.

Actually, I couldn't decide if he sounded more like Carrie Nation on a soapbox or Professor Harold Hill warning of the trouble to which the playing of pool can lead.

Basically, as almost everyone else in this thread has pointed out, marijuana is widely available despite the best efforts of the DEA, is enjoyed by a broad spectrum of society with no discernible ill effects, and it is high time (no pun intended) that it's use was legalized and it's sale taxed... thus turning a federal budget liability into a source of income for the government.
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BMI727
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:51 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
Basically, as almost everyone else in this thread has pointed out, marijuana is widely available despite the best efforts of the DEA, is enjoyed by a broad spectrum of society with no discernible ill effects

It's just ridiculous to think that productive people will put everything aside to become stoners should marijuana become legal or that a lazy person is that much more useful if they aren't high.

It's not like there aren't still hippies who retired, got jobs, and became mostly normal and productive people.

Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
it is high time (no pun intended) that it's use was legalized and it's sale taxed...

I wouldn't tax it beyond a nominal sales tax on all items. If you want to smoke, it's your business.
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:25 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
It's not like there aren't still hippies who retired, got jobs, and became mostly normal and productive people.

Yeah, but they became Democrats. Evidence enough of brain damage...



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DocLightning
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:57 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Maybe, but I do have some experience in a couple of European countries where pot is legal or at least tolerated, and there were an awful lot of people, both in school and in their places of work who were basically buzzed all the time - smoking 5-10 joints per day, starting the first thing in the morning.

Yup. Happens. Just like people who are a bit buzzed all the time on booze. They're called alcoholics.

We should ban alcohol.

Oh...wait...that worked about as well as banning pot.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I wouldn't tax it beyond a nominal sales tax on all items. If you want to smoke, it's your business.

Why not? Sin taxes are a great idea. First of all, anyone not wishing to pay the tax can simply not use cannabis. Second, it's a great source of revenue. Third, it discourages excessive use. I'm a strong proponent of sin taxes. I think they should be used on prostitution, gambling, tobacco, alcohol, etc.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
How do you know they aren't weed smokers already?

They're not. Boeing drug tests everyone from secretary to engineers on a regular basis. But I bet you a few people at Airbus like to smoke a joint every now and then. And I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable getting on an Airbus because someone in France might smoke a bit of hashish (that's what they smoke in Europe).

Quoting TSS (Reply 13):
Basically, as almost everyone else in this thread has pointed out, marijuana is widely available despite the best efforts of the DEA, is enjoyed by a broad spectrum of society with no discernible ill effects, and it is high time (no pun intended) that it's use was legalized and it's sale taxed... thus turning a federal budget liability into a source of income for the government.

I'm a bit of a civil libertarian. I believe that ALL drugs except antibiotics should be legal and available without prescription. Antibiotics can harm others by your use, so they should require a prescription. Otherwise, if you want to pop pills, inject pure heroin with a clean needle, snort cocaine, etc. then 1)You and you alone are responsible for the consequences of your actions while under the influence and 2) It's none of the government's business what you put in your body in your own home.

"But people might drive while high on heroin!" Yeah, they do that on alcohol, too. It won't be any different. Prosecute the hell out of behavior that endangers others, not behavior that only endangers yourself.

"But the costs to society..." ...of skiing are tremendous. Skiers routinely suffer disability (both temporary and permanent) and death from their "recreational activity." Their careless behavior of throwing themselves down the mountain places an undue burden on the healthcare system. Frankly, it should be banned. And the same goes for bike riding and football and...

"But my kids..." ...are your responsibility. My parents taught me about drugs and alcohol. You do the same with yours.
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thegreatRDU
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:01 am

Obama has a chance to stand up and be a leader on this issue...
But of course during the election...there was really no dialogue of substance..

He can come out and least say he respects states' rights or something
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BMI727
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:16 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
Sin taxes are a great idea.

No they aren't. Either a given activity infringes on the rights of others in which case it should be regulated or banned, or it doesn't and it's none of the government's or anyone else's business whether or not I choose to do something and how often I do so. The simple truth is that if I'm not encroaching on anyone else's rights the government should not be passing judgement, whether it's jail time or taxes, on what I smoke, eat, drink, drive, etc.
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seb146
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:25 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I'm just curious about what's going to happen in 5-10 years, when pot-smokers wake up one morning and realize they are mostly stuck at menial, minimum wage jobs

Kinda like functioning alcoholics *cough*speakerofthehouse*cough*

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple truth is that if I'm not encroaching on anyone else's rights the government should not be passing judgement, whether it's jail time or taxes, on what I smoke, eat, drink, drive, etc.

The government, like any corporations (which is what the right-wing want the government to function as), finds a way to make money off the people. Taxes. Charge $8 a pack for tobacco cigarettes and have $7 of that go to the government as income. Just like any corporation, right? This, also, takes the criminal element out of it.

I don't smoke MJ. I have tried it and I don't like what it does to me. But, what consenting adults do behind closed doors is none of my business. If adults want to smoke weed, fine. I don't care. If they want to sign state issued contracts, fine. I don't care. These are things the right-wing *SAYS* they are for but, time and again, come out staunchly and squarely against!
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BMI727
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:32 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
which is what the right-wing want the government to function as

That isn't true at all. Maximum efficiency is good, but the goal of government is not to make money. The goal of government is to provide essential services that cannot otherwise be offered through other practical means and do it as cheaply as possible and then attempt to collect enough revenue, in a fair way, to cover it.

Businesses seek to both minimize cost and maximize revenue and offer services based on that goal. The government needs to offer certain services, minimize the cost, and then only collect revenue to support that.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
This, also, takes the criminal element out of it.

No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:22 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?

I don't think so, we don't see bootleg tobacco (as far as I know.) We see moonshine a bit, and I've got no stats on me, but I'm pretty sure it's more of a fun thing to do/family tradition rather than a way to dodge taxes.

I'm against sin taxes, though, if we need to compromise or raise revenue some how, I think sin taxes would be the first thing I'd like to see enacted (before higher income tax, sales tax, etc.)
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:55 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
They're not. Boeing drug tests everyone from secretary to engineers on a regular basis.

I didn't know that.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
"But the costs to society..." ...of skiing are tremendous.

I know, it cost us Sunny Bono.

Quoting thegreatRDU (Reply 17):
Obama has a chance to stand up and be a leader on this issue...

More like a target for the right.

Look how well his comments on same sex marriage went down in North Carolina.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The goal of government is to provide essential services that cannot otherwise be offered through other practical means and do it as cheaply as possible and then attempt to collect enough revenue, in a fair way, to cover it.

A great argument for the government becoming the "investor of last resort" in alternative energy. It's essential we reduce our defense spending by getting off imported oil as well as reducing our carbon footprint, but private industry just doesn't want to go there.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
I don't think so, we don't see bootleg tobacco (as far as I know.) We see moonshine a bit, and I've got no stats on me, but I'm pretty sure it's more of a fun thing to do/family tradition rather than a way to dodge taxes.

I'm enjoying the Moonshiners series on cable tv, and there it's clear that these individuals do it as a full time job to provide income for their families, not as some sort of hobby. The penalties are too stiff to risk taking the chance of being caught if it's just a hobby. The lack of taxes is just one more element that helps make it a viable way to provide for your family.
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soon7x7
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
The long-term plan of selling and taxing, and allowing possession of moderate amounts seems pretty sensible to me.

Taxes...that is all it is about...yet they are now discussing cigarette smokers requiring a license to buy smokes...WTF?...talk about a Bass Ackwards government. Now I know what happened to all those that attended Woodstock...they work in D.C....(District of Cannabis").

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 15):
Yeah, but they became Democrats. Evidence enough of brain damage...

...got a light!
 
BMI727
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
A great argument for the government becoming the "investor of last resort" in alternative energy.

If it isn't a good investment for any of the dozens of private equity, venture capital, or big energy firms then it probably isn't a good investment for public money.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
It's essential we reduce our defense spending by getting off imported oil as well as reducing our carbon footprint, but private industry just doesn't want to go there.

The industry will go there when the technology gets to the point that they can make money on it. Nobody is hiding super carburetors that will allow 100 MPG cars, it's just worth way too much.

I have no problem with the government trying to power their things via alternative means. Cover every government office in solar panels, it won't bother me, depending on what it costs. There's already some hybrid military vehicle prototypes running around. They should just keep their nose out of how I and the power company make and use energy.
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 7:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
If it isn't a good investment for any of the dozens of private equity, venture capital, or big energy firms then it probably isn't a good investment for public money.

As you said, the goal isn't to make money, it's to reduce pollution, health care costs, defense costs, and so on.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 24):
The industry will go there when the technology gets to the point that they can make money on it.

How do you get to that point (ever, or in a reasonable amount of time) if there is insufficient investment?
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BMI727
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
As you said, the goal isn't to make money, it's to reduce pollution, health care costs, defense costs, and so on.

Energy is something that can quite easily and effectively be provided by private companies, whose goal is to make money. Energy isn't really a government problem except in the respects that they have to regulate providers to keep them from encroaching on the rights of others (inspecting reactors, etc.) and buying the energy they need to perform their duties.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 25):
How do you get to that point (ever, or in a reasonable amount of time) if there is insufficient investment?

There is too much money to be made for people to not make that investment. They won't just throw money at any crazy idea, but when you see how much money is in the oil industry you can just imagine the payday for a company that can provide an alternative.

You'd be hard pressed to find anyone at GM who thinks the Volt was a bad idea. But, if everyone is in agreement that it's a wonderful idea and that there is a surefire payoff at the end even if current models fall short, why the hell couldn't they build it with their own money?
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Dreadnought
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:25 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):
Energy is something that can quite easily and effectively be provided by private companies, whose goal is to make money. Energy isn't really a government problem except in the respects that they have to regulate providers to keep them from encroaching on the rights of others (inspecting reactors, etc.) and buying the energy they need to perform their duties.

I would point out one important exception. The French power grid is a government monopoly under EDF (Electricite de France), and as everyone knows, they have a very successful nuclear program that supplies some 80% of the country's power needs from 60 nuclear plants.

Having all these plants under one roof allows a high degree of standardization - nearly all the plants are of very similar design. A person trained in one plant can pretty much go to any other and immediately be up and running. So you have a very rigorous and uniform training system on common designs that everyone knows - it's a little bit like the US Navy's nuclear sub engineering school - Commonality of design and training leads to high safety and efficiency.

In the US, pretty much every plant is a custom-built job, owned by different power companies. That drives up your cost per unit, and training cannot be standardized - but is more of a one-off, whenever you need to train someone approach. I think the French system is more effective and safer.

So while I agree with your broader point, I think there is a pretty good argument for a federally owned and operated nuclear power program, under the NEA, which would build, maintain and staff nuclear plants, and sell the power to local power companies at a competitive price.
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bhill
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:28 pm

Yup, first getting pot off of Schedule I. Next DOMA.....whoo hoo!! We Washingtonians are a progressive bunch. And sin taxes ARE a great idea. Kinda like PAYGO BMI......something has to pay for the infrastructure to treat folks of excessive drug use...just like alcoholism. Or would you rather having them on the public dole? Kinda goes against your sense of business you profess.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 8:59 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 22):
I'm enjoying the Moonshiners series on cable tv, and there it's clear that these individuals do it as a full time job to provide income for their families, not as some sort of hobby. The penalties are too stiff to risk taking the chance of being caught if it's just a hobby. The lack of taxes is just one more element that helps make it a viable way to provide for your family.

Ah, did not know that. Know quite a few people who had moonshiners in their family, they just liked making it. Went to college in Dahlonega, GA, so that probably explains a few things lol.

I guess my underlying point is you don't see very much bootleg tobacco, even the moonshine operations aren't that vast, so I doubt sin taxes would create all this bootleg marijuana. Even with no sin taxes, I'm sure people would grow their own recreationally and sell some of it
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RussianJet
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:37 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
And I've never felt the least bit uncomfortable getting on an Airbus because someone in France might smoke a bit of hashish (that's what they smoke in Europe).

Small point of order, Doc - there's a good deal of weed floating around Europe too. Predominance of hash varies a fair amount from country to country.   
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Dreadnought
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:55 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Small point of order, Doc - there's a good deal of weed floating around Europe too. Predominance of hash varies a fair amount from country to country.

Hash was predominant years ago, but pot started to get popular in the 90s, from what I saw.
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RussianJet
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:07 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Hash was predominant years ago, but pot started to get popular in the 90s, from what I saw.

That's broadly true, yes. Europe is of course a more traditional destination for hashish than the US, owing to its relative proximity to source areas such as North Africa, and established overland routes from the middle east. These days that is still the case, but there is a lot more weed being grown within Europe for consumption in the country of production and their neighbours, hence the growth in popularity you refer to. Hash also has the advantage for ne'er-do-well smuggler/trader that it is more easily doctored, with low-grade commodity pressed with anything from ground-up tyres and plastic to pretty much anything else you can think of. Yuck.
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DocLightning
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:18 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?

No more than they sell bootleg booze or tobacco. Even with huge taxes, the price will be far below what it is currently.

Besides, weed isn't "bootlegged." It's grown at home. You don't need to distill it. You grow it, trim it, dry it, and trim it again.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Small point of order, Doc - there's a good deal of weed floating around Europe too. Predominance of hash varies a fair amount from country to country.

I've mostly *ahem* seen other people smoking hash in Europe. I have seen some weed there, but hash is the norm in the UK, Spain, and France. Weed is more prevalent in the Netherlands. I would imagine that France, with its huge Mideast population, would go for hashish. They usually grind it up and then roll it in a joint with tobacco.
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RussianJet
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:21 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
hash is the norm in the UK

To an extent, but seriously - far less dominant than it used to be. As I mentioned, mainly due to steady growth in local production.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
Spain, and France

Definitely true in those states.
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lewis
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 33):
I've mostly *ahem* seen other people smoking hash in Europe. I have seen some weed there, but hash is the norm in the UK, Spain, and France. Weed is more prevalent in the Netherlands. I would imagine that France, with its huge Mideast population, would go for hashish. They usually grind it up and then roll it in a joint with tobacco.

Hash is very popular in Spain, France and Italy. The Netherlands is kind of a mix. From my experience the UK was more of a weed country. Greece is also mixed but weed is the predominant form, there are a couple of home grown varieties mostly in Crete and Kalamata. Most Europeans mix with tobacco, whether it's weed or hash.
 
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DocLightning
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:31 pm

Quoting lewis (Reply 35):
Hash is very popular in Spain, France and Italy. The Netherlands is kind of a mix. From my experience the UK was more of a weed country. Greece is also mixed but weed is the predominant form, there are a couple of home grown varieties mostly in Crete and Kalamata. Most Europeans mix with tobacco, whether it's weed or hash.

I'm sure you'd know much better than I.     
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AirframeAS
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:09 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 9):
Frankly, I'd feel worse knowing that any engineer/assembler/whatever can go get sh*t-faced every night, and go to work hungover the next day.

This is why I support strict routine random drug testing at every workplace, regardless of industry.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I wouldn't tax it beyond a nominal sales tax on all items.

Why not? Taxing marijuana is a great idea. It is a revenue stream that the State and the Feds are LARGELY missing out on. And they know it! I voted YES on the Colorado law, the main reason was because the money is going to the school districts.

I don't understand what the Feds are afraid of by legalizing marijuana and taxing it. What are they really worried about??
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BMI727
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:10 am

Quoting bhill (Reply 28):
And sin taxes ARE a great idea.

No they aren't. It's dumb for the government to decide that it's bad enough to be taxed, but not so bad to be banned. It's your life, smoke what you want.

Quoting bhill (Reply 28):
Or would you rather having them on the public dole?

Get rid of that too.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
Taxing marijuana is a great idea. It is a revenue stream that the State and the Feds are LARGELY missing out on.

The "we can tax it to make money" is possibly the worst argument for legalization. People should either be free to use it or not, rather than having the government pass judgement on how they live or make them pay because they disapprove of certain life choices.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:25 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):

Question for you: Do you like beer or other alcohol? Or do you smoke cigarettes?
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BMI727
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:02 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 39):
Do you like beer or other alcohol?

Somewhat. I tend to do enough dumb stuff without drinking.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 39):
Or do you smoke cigarettes?

No.

However, I don't feel the need to stop people who avidly partake of both.
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Revelation
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 2:49 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
It's dumb for the government to decide that it's bad enough to be taxed, but not so bad to be banned.

Believe it or not, the government is us, and it only rules with the support of the people. The ban is coming down because we the people realize it's a costly waste of resources.

We the people tax things that are both good and bad. We tax income, and in most people's mind income is a good thing. Many forms of consumption are taxed at various levels of government.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
However, I don't feel the need to stop people who avidly partake of both.

So why not MJ?

I think the WA rules make sense. One can have up to an ounce on them, which is a large amount for all non-Rastafarians. There still are penalties for smoking in public and for being under the influence. Win-win all around, says I...
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AirframeAS
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 4:35 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):
Somewhat

Well, guess what? Beer is taxed, too! Just sayin'.........

If beer is taxed by the government, then weed WILL be taxed as well.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 41):

I agree with everything you said, and was very spot on!
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seb146
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:20 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
The goal of government is to provide essential services that cannot otherwise be offered through other practical means and do it as cheaply as possible and then attempt to collect enough revenue, in a fair way, to cover it.

Health care and food?

oh, wait... we have to let people live and die at the mercy of profit....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 20):
No it won't. You think people won't sell bootleg marijuana if the government places abusive taxes on it?

There will always be *some* criminal element to it. Just like there are those who will forever live on welfare. However, most sane and reasonable people will purchase from legal and reputable establishments. That is what I see here and in Montana, where pot is prescribed. In CA, it is pretty simple to get a medical card and buy from liscenced shops. There are still those who choose to buy shake on the street. But, most sane and logical smokers I know go to clubs to buy.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 43):
Health care and food?

oh, wait... we have to let people live and die at the mercy of profit....

Tell me, do you believe that at any point in people's lives they should be responsible for themselves? Or do you want a benevolent state to hold your hand and wipe your ass your whole life? Seriously I am starting to think that you are an unabashed hippy-commune kind of guy.
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seb146
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:30 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
Tell me

It is this whole post of yours that pisses me off about the whole right-wing. You all think like that. At least, the ones who only surround themselves with FOX and Rush and Drudge and nothing else. You all see nothing but what you are told do see and there is no convincing you otherwise. The only thing that goes on in the world is what your handlers tell you. Even when you all are shown how stupid you all are, you all agree that everyone else is stupid and you all are the smart ones.

To answer your question (and I am going to be told this is not how the world works because FOX/Rush/Drudge told you otherwise): People have lost their good paying jobs and now are forced to work low-wage jobs. They have no choice. That is how America is now. They can not afford private health care and private schools and have to ask the government for help. Despite how you are told to think, a wide, huge, vast majority of Americans on assistance DO NOT WANT TO BE ON ASSISTANCE!!! I know that goes against everything you are told to believe, but it is true. The next time you are at Wal-Mart buying your king sized bag of Cheese Doodles and 24 pack of soda, as you look down your nose at the unwashed masses at the check stand, ask them if they are on government assistance and if they want it or would rather have a good paying job so they don't need to be on government assistance. The answer will shock and amaze you. And you will still convince yourself that they are wrong and you are right.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
Tell me, do you believe that at any point in people's lives they should be responsible for themselves? Or do you want a benevolent state to hold your hand and wipe your ass your whole life?

Couldn't the same argument be used to legalize marijuana?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
People have lost their good paying jobs and now are forced to work low-wage jobs. They have no choice. That is how America is now. They can not afford private health care and private schools and have to ask the government for help. Despite how you are told to think, a wide, huge, vast majority of Americans on assistance DO NOT WANT TO BE ON ASSISTANCE!!!

I actually agree with you here, and this didn't really occur to me until a few months ago
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AirframeAS
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
Despite how you are told to think, a wide, huge, vast majority of Americans on assistance DO NOT WANT TO BE ON ASSISTANCE!!!

That is not exactly true, and you know it. There are so many Americans on welfare that see checks coming in when they are not working, which tells them that they are getting free money and free food stamps and the like. I have a former "friend" who has a sister with that exact same mentality. She never leaves the house, except for when her favorite band is in town.

Now, I don't completely doubt you that people do not want to be on assistance, HOWEVER...... there are still lazies out there that love the assistance because it's free money and they don't have the motivation to get off their asses and do something productive.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):

You're saying the same thing as Seb:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 45):
a wide, huge, vast majority

majority =/= all, and this acknowledges that:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
there are still lazies out there that love the assistance because it's free money and they don't have the motivation to get off their asses and do something productive.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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Revelation
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RE: Washington Goes Live With Weed Decriminalisation

Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
Now, I don't completely doubt you that people do not want to be on assistance, HOWEVER...... there are still lazies out there that love the assistance because it's free money and they don't have the motivation to get off their asses and do something productive.

Right, but we saw how Mitt and his Boca Raton buddies put the figure at 47%, and proceeded to use that figure to make themselves feel good about all the tax breaks and corporate welfare they receive.

The "Santa Claus giving things away" and the "makers versus the takers" arguments are key tenants of the right wing, yet most data and most people's day to day experience does not jive with that, which is yet another reason why their man Mitt is pumping his own gas these days.

Having said that, I'm not in favor of unemployment payments ad-infinitum. I agreed we needed an extension after the shock of the GFC of 2008, but we're in 2012 now, the transient has been dampened, and we can't keep paying able-bodied workers to not work for extended periods of time.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!

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