stlgph
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CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:53 pm

Looking at dozens dead in Newtown, CT this morning from a shooting at an elementary school.

Reporter friends on the ground saying they've counted at least 20 body bags ... CBS news is reporting 27 are dead, including 14 children.

http://www.livestream.com/foxct

http://www.courant.com/

http://www.ctnow.com/
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
racko
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:08 pm

So sad...an elementary school  

I am lost for words.
 
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pvjin
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:10 pm

Horrible, just horrible... Kind of reminds me from Breivik, so many young people dead.

World nowadays is just so fucked up...
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
PC12Fan
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:11 pm

27 dead - 18 kids. I am stunned and at a loss for words.
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hammerb32
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:12 pm

Unbelievably sad, thoughts to all the victims familys
 
soon7x7
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:13 pm

You've gotta wonder what is happening to this country. What drives the anger and rote apathy for human life in these creeps/ cowards. Too much hate and why pick on children at schools. What the hell do children have to do with anything other than they are the offspring of a class of people some one apparently has a problem with. Connecticut is as conservative a state you'll find in the North East as any. Simple people, simply going to school looking forward to the Holidays with excitement. Bam!...they are gone...WTF?...too many anti depressives mixed w power drinks?...something has to give and don't tell me guns have to be regulated...they already are. Idiots that are dangerously wired in the head are too frequently walking amongst us all everyday. Only going to see more of this I'm afraid.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:14 pm

Sigh well this ruined my day
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stlgph
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:14 pm

One of my reporter friends texted me telling me it sounds like an entire kindergarten class was wiped out.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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casinterest
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:17 pm

This is unbelievable. I am stunned by it. My sympathy to the victims and thier families. I don't know what answers will come as the shooter is apparently dead.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:22 pm

 

...why?



David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:24 pm

I have relatives in Connecticut, though none of them are in elementary school (and the school-age ones are actually at private boarding schools out of state). Still, made my heart jump for a minute there.

Terrible stuff.

And earlier posters are right. There is something seriously wrong with the mentality of people in this country, and unfortunately that will be lost in the debate about gun control. That debate is one that certainly needs to be had (using logic and facts, and removing "emotion" from the debate), but it can't override the simple, serious discussion about WTF is wrong with people?

People are being pushed to the point of snapping and losing all control of their own actions, and something has to be addressed about that.

One thing this country seems horribly incapable of is having serious, honest public discussions about difficult subjects.
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Starbuk7
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:33 pm

There is gun control in this country, go down and try to buy a gun and see how much paperwork you have to fill out before you can even leave the store with the gun.

As mentioned it is about peoples mental state, involving personnel responsibility for ones actions which is severely lacking in this country nowadays.

This is a very tragic and sad situation but do not try to take away my "legally" obtained and purchased weapons.
 
stlgph
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:34 pm

Now reporters at the scene are saying two shooters ... one 20, one 24.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:35 pm

I hate to make this another gun debate thread, but I guess I can't say "most" without knowing how many, but many gun-owners (including me) knows something needs to be done, even before this situation happened. It's hard to deny we have a gun problem in this nation

Details are fuzzy, is there anything more to this story at the moment? This is terrible
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L-188
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:37 pm

Well Said Starbuk7!!!

Newark727, just goes to show how pointless that gin control law is. The same can be said about the wide majority of them on the books.

Git rid of them, allow us to exercise our rights and these things won't happen. Every state that has gone to concealed carry has seen drops in crime....period
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Newark727
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 22):
As mentioned it is about peoples mental state, involving personnel responsibility for ones actions which is severely lacking in this country nowadays.

And why is that? You can't talk about people not taking responsibility and going nuts without talking about the tools that make such an option attractive, and the general culture that encourages people to aggressively defend the use of such tools regardless of the actual issue (see the spikes in gun sales upon Obama's election despite the repeated lack of any action to restrict such sales.) There is a narrative in this country that the government is mendacious, deceptive, and out to take your freedoms away, and that you must defend yourself against them, with force of arms if necessary. Now mix that with people who have vengeful thoughts, people who perceive enemies where none exist, people who hold a grudge.

Quoting Starbuk7 (Reply 22):
This is a very tragic and sad situation but do not try to take away my "legally" obtained and purchased weapons.

Way to jump to conclusions.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:37 pm

I just found out about this.

This is true horror. Shocking!

Can one person alone kill 25+ others? What if there was a second murderer?

 Wow!  

There are no words for such a horrendous tragedy.

RIP all innocent victims.

  
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
racko
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:41 pm

AP: Shooter is a 20 year old man "with connections to the school", weapon used is a .223 rifle.
 
Newark727
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:41 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 28):
Git rid of them, allow us to exercise our rights and these things won't happen.

Question: what will happen instead? You have not addressed the issue raised by that random twitter comment you seem to be endorsing, which is: how does this sort of situation resolve differently when the entire public is armed? In fact, a lot of situations will resolve differently when somebody has a gun. We take them away on airplanes for a reason, we used to keep you from carrying them into town back in the Old West days too.

Quote:
Even when I was stationed on Germany back in the nineties it was appalling the lack of freedom your country, the country that gave us Mauser, Luger and Walther has In that regard.

These two facts may be more connected than you think!

[Edited 2012-12-14 10:43:05]
 
Mir
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:45 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 28):
Every state that has gone to concealed carry has seen drops in crime....period

If you're willing to accept more homicides, then great. Because those also go up with increased gun ownership.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
racko
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:47 pm

Quoting SoJo (Reply 40):
Nice attitude L-188. So, from your post you're on about "YOUR" civil rights. What about the childrens rights? Should they not go to school and feel safe? I'm gobsmacked at your reply.

They could have bought guns and defended themselves like men!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 37):
This only strengthens the argument for more individuals to have guns to defend themselves, their children, their property.

Come on, I own 9 guns. How can you say that people having more guns could have stopped this? We know nothing yet. It seems like a shooter locked himself in a classroom and killed everyone in there. Even if the teacher had a gun, he/she would have to be a very quick draw and have an accurate aim to shoot a surprise gunman. What if a teacher next door was armed? Still would result in kids dying, maybe less.

In the best case scenario, kids would have died. We gun owners (assuming you are one) can't automatically dismiss any case without looking at options that restrict guns in the hands of crazies but allow us to hunt, shoot for fun, etc. Up to this shooting, these shooter(s) were probably clean, legal gun owners like you and me (again, assuming you are a gun owner)
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jfk69
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 pm

If you have children go home today and hug them all a little tighter.

Thoughts and prayers to all affected.
 
PHX787
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:50 pm

I wanna know one thing....where are the in-school guards/police? At public schools in Arizona and in Ohio, both states have security people present, sometimes armed, sometimes police officers. Reportedly NO resistance or security was present. What the hell.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:53 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 44):

I wanna know one thing....where are the in-school guards/police? At public schools in Arizona and in Ohio, both states have security people present, sometimes armed, sometimes police officers. Reportedly NO resistance or security was present. What the hell.

Even if there was, is the police officer supposed to teleport instantly to the location? I don't want to think about it, but it probably doesn't take too long to do what the shooters did...
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Newark727
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:54 pm

But back to my first post. Let's take a look at how everyone responded. The calls for gun control- predictable enough, but specifics are needed- what problem are we trying to solve, and how are we trying to solve it? But a reasonable reaction to a gun crime. The pushback- let us have our civil rights! Don't take my guns away! There's the problem. Instead of recognizing social problems and trying to solve them, the reaction is an immediate "no, never!' before any problem has been identified or solution proposed, beyond the involvement of a firearm. The ownership of a gun has moved from a responsibility protected by the Second Amendment to an irrevocable and irreducible right that any effort to so much as investigate is an attack on people's fundamental beliefs. I don't know of any other provision in the Bill of Rights that is treated this way, and I'm not completely up on my Second Amendment jurisprudence but I do know that it hasn't always been interpreted as broadly as people would have you believe. This is no way to conduct a debate that revolves around the fundamental safety and security of the public.
 
PHX787
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):
Even if there was, is the police officer supposed to teleport instantly to the location? I don't want to think about it, but it probably doesn't take too long to do what the shooters did...

I mean on site.

I guarantee you if someone tried to pull crap like this in Arizona, he would be shot through the head upon arrival.
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wolbo
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:56 pm

Let's not act surprised here, it's a logical and inevitable consequence of America's obsession with guns. This is simply the prize to pay for that obession. If society finds that prize too high then change the policy. If society doesn't want to change the policy, fine but then don't complain about the prize to pay. That's just fake indignation.

Perhaps "Long live the Second Amendment" would be a suitable inscription on the children's tombstones.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 21):
Now imagine several armed civilians of wide-ranging training levels seeing a situation like this develop- that's several different people seeing several different things and they're going to get about 1 in 4 chance to hit the actual bad guy, apiece.

One does not even have armed students or teachers around. In the Empire State Building shooting this year, one gunman was killed by the police, and nine bystanders were shot... by the police.

More guns is not the solution, changing the mindset of the citizen is. When I hear of such a shooting, I'm reminded of the 1993 film "Falling Down", where a defense industry engineer is furloughed and feels betrayed. He goes on a vendetta to kill people who are bad examples as "Americans", wherever he meets them.

I just get the feeling that Americans do not tolerate losers - and do not tolerate being a loser oneself. Being successful makes you a proud man. Hell-bent on being successful, one wants to avenge anybody who has done anythong wrong - being happy suffices to be a target.

I wish that people could say... well, my life sucks. I just have lost my job. My wife has divorced the marriage, has taken our child to her new home... but: I still have respect for myself, and I know that I am valuable. So there is no reason to lash out at anybody else. Remaining calm in such a situation already makes me a hero.

This is my speculation, that something like this happens in these shooters' minds.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 47):

I guarantee you if someone tried to pull crap like this in Arizona, he would be shot through the head upon arrival.

You think a token security person couldn't be handled very simply by anyone still using a fraction of their brain?
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
Newark727
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:57 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 42):
Come on, I own 9 guns. How can you say that people having more guns could have stopped this? We know nothing yet. It seems like a shooter locked himself in a classroom and killed everyone in there. Even if the teacher had a gun, he/she would have to be a very quick draw and have an accurate aim to shoot a surprise gunman. What if a teacher next door was armed? Still would result in kids dying, maybe less.

In the best case scenario, kids would have died. We gun owners (assuming you are one) can't automatically dismiss any case without looking at options that restrict guns in the hands of crazies but allow us to hunt, shoot for fun, etc. Up to this shooting, these shooter(s) were probably clean, legal gun owners like you and me (again, assuming you are a gun owner)

I think what soon7x7 was saying, and your response, is actually quite illustrative. I'm not sure he was actually advocating the position he did, rather reframing the problem on personal rather than social terms. If you think everyone around you might be out to hurt you, you think you and everyone else should be armed for self-protection, and an effort to restrict that is an effort to restrict your own personal safety. It stands to a certain reason. The problem is that the needs of public safety and the needs of personal safety are quite different and in some situations contradictory.
 
L-188
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:58 pm

Actually Newsrk727 the people that are calling for guy control are the new that are looking for the QuickFix, and like most qck fixes it doesnt work. They don't want to examine what in society cause the shooter to snap, bad divorce,religious dogma, frustratins...we just don't know yet.

We don't know what cause this to happen yet so we should withhold judgment until more infor is known,


But I agree the people screaming about the quick fix aren't helping, but to the. It is like a drug, they just can't get off it
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
iFlyLOTs
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:58 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 44):
where are the in-school guards/police?

In the school district I went to from K-12 I only had a school "resource officer" in high school. I live in a town that's rather wealthy and we have the money to pay for more officers in school if we need them, we just don't think that we need them. Here we call it the "Naperworld" perspective on life (Naperville being the town I'm from) we don't think that it could happen to us so we don't pay for it. I bet this town in conservative, pleasant, Connecticut felt the same way until 9:40 this morning.
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airportugal310
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 44):

I wanna know one thing....where are the in-school guards/police? At public schools in Arizona and in Ohio, both states have security people present, sometimes armed, sometimes police officers. Reportedly NO resistance or security was present. What the hell.

What?

Since when did every school out there need security people, especially an elementary school? That something new?
I sell airplanes and airplane accessories
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 47):
I mean on site.

I guarantee you if someone tried to pull crap like this in Arizona, he would be shot through the head upon arrival.

Well, at every public school I attended, there was a single armed cop somewhere, but there are probably 20 entrances to these schools. I'm sure if the gunmen went right through the entrance the cop was at, the cop may have been able to stop the shooter(s)...

Again, I don't want to be morbid, but think of your high school and use your imagination... there are plenty of ways to get past/through or avoid a school resource officer all together
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racko
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 47):
I guarantee you if someone tried to pull crap like this in Arizona, he would be shot through the head upon arrival.

Like in Tucson?
 
hammerb32
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:00 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 45):

Is it really that bad in the US that security guards are needed at an elementary school. Not the time to debate gun control for me, just a time to think of those poor families.
 
Newark727
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:01 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 52):

Shouting "my civil rights!" and saying that their allowance will make the problem go away is just as quick a fix. In fact, worse, since it isn't really a response to a clear wrong at all. That said, I'm inclined to agree that some previous gun control measures suffer from not identifying the problem that they're trying to solve. Once we do that, we can have a reasonable discussion about responses to gun violence. So far we haven't passed square one.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:05 pm

Quoting hammerb32 (Reply 57):
Is it really that bad in the US that security guards are needed at an elementary school. Not the time to debate gun control for me, just a time to think of those poor families.

I never saw them as security guards... they were there to handle disciplinary problems with kids (like fights, something involved in every school,) to teach classes (DARE in elementary, Intro to Law Enforcement or something in high school,) etc.

My town/schools were very well off and even petty violence like fights were rare, we still had a resource officer. Never really thought about it, I thought every school in the US had one
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
L-188
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:09 pm

Just out of curiosity, how is supporting a civil right enshrined in the constitution along with the right to free speech a , "quick fix"?

IMHO most restrictions today never should have been put in place in the first place!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
srbmod
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:09 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 17):

we don't know, so let's knock off the discussion about using this crime to justify ingnirant people taking away my and all Americans civil rights!

What about the "CIVIL RIGHTS" of the innocent victims in these SENSELESS MASSACRES"? You cannot have it BOTH WAYS!!!!!

The Second Amendment is woefully out of date with the modern times.
 
Newark727
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:13 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
Still I am a big proponent of the rational rules we have up here then the reicht-like ones in California and New York

I can't say at the moment, the only California rule that I'm completely familiar with is the 10-shot limit and I don't know much about New York's. I know California has other restrictions though. Again, it depends on what problems you are trying to solve. If it's people of unsound mind buying guns, work on better coordination with mental health professionals (when legal with regard to patient privacy laws/understandings) and checks for background. If it's inner-city gang violence, perhaps it would be better to look at the distribution of easily-concealed firearms. If it's the firepower available to individuals in general, CA's ten-shot magazines seem pretty reasonable, honestly. If it's crimes of passion, make sure there's a waiting period. But right now we have a situation where the moment the conversation on violence reaches guns, nothing can be made to happen, because every proposal is treated the same way, as a direct attack on the Constitution. Attempting to address all possible gun violence issues at once probably won't actually solve very many of them.
 
Newark727
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:14 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 61):
Just out of curiosity, how is supporting a civil right enshrined in the constitution along with the right to free speech a , "quick fix"?

Well it happened almost as soon as the calls for gun control with even less apparent regard for its long term effects.
 
racko
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:20 pm

Shooter apparently killed his parent in New Jersey and then drove to his hometown and shot up the school.
 
Mir
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting airportugal310 (Reply 54):
Since when did every school out there need security people, especially an elementary school? That something new?

That's something that's a consequence of the mentality that having lots of guns around improves safety. If you're going to operate on that philosophy, then you need to accept that more people who shouldn't have guns will, and thus there need to be even more people with guns in order to stop them.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 60):
Still I am a big proponent of the rational rules we have up here then the reicht-like ones in California and New York

What, the ones that have led to fewer gun deaths per capita than in Alaska?

You want some rational rules? Here you go: get rid of the gun show loophole, and make it illegal for someone to buy a gun in a state in which they don't reside. And then regulate private sales so that the same background checks that would be required if you went to a dealer are done.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
ALTF4
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:21 pm

I didn't bother reading the pro/anti gun comments. There is something seriously messed up with some people, and guns or no guns, people will do harm - some to more extent than others. Yes, guns in the wrong hands can do some extreme damage, but so can other tools.

I think we have sidelined people with mental illnesses for far too long. I have a close friend who's wife has/had depression - and one of their friends insisted that the wife really did not because she "did not sit in her bed with a blanket over her head all day long". If we, as a society, are that blind to recognizing hurting people, then we're fostering a community of people who will snap at any moment.

Recently I was on twitter searching for "melancholia" because I had just watched the movie. The number of people that tweet about depression and hurt - openly tweet about it - surprised me. We accept it as part of life and expect these people to move on. Is that the right answer? Maybe, maybe not.

Regardless of the tools available for the extreme of the extreme, bad things happen. Just a few weeks ago, two blocks from my house, a standard business guy commuting in traffic snapped. He started ramming cars, trying to run over police who were directing traffic, and caused a huge mess. When he tried to run over one of the police, they shot him and he died a few minutes later. This guy was a staff writer for a large publication and was, from what I can tell, a successful business man on the side as well - and lived in a nice area. Regardless of the tool used, people who seem "ok" can just snap and lose it.

Why does that happen? Are we barking up the wrong tree? Are we ignoring people with obvious signs of mental illness? We accept physical illness as "normal" - why can't we do the same for mental illness - and more importantly - accept treatment as the right and normal thing to do?

[Edited 2012-12-14 11:25:01]
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
ushermittwoch
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 70):
These comments don't help a lot. Not because I'm an American patriot or anything, more because the most ardent gun-rights advocates thrive on a mentality of siege and persecution. You're just telling them that they're right.

No, these people are already in a state beyond help in regard to being sensible.
The whole militia movement paired with conservative talk radio / conspiracy nutters and various websites, coupled with the current economic situation and the fact that a BLACK man is still in office will cause even more grief.
The US has a huge problem, which it will not and frankly cannot address.
Where have all the tri-jets gone...
 
Newark727
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:23 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 71):
I say this to everyone who thinks gun control will solve our problems: WHO ACTUALLY THINKS THAT CRIMINALS FOLLOW LAWS?!

Nice dodge. If someone is absolutely determined to have a full-auto Kalishnakov with a bayonet and 100-round drum magazine I'm sure there are ways they can get one illegally. But for people who aren't quite as specific in their tastes and just intend to kill, I think it's wise to reduce just how much they can just pick up off the shelf.
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:26 pm

They will tell you not to politicize tragedy.

They'll tell you that until you forget.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
PHX787
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RE: CT School Shooting

Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:26 pm

I found his FB page, they released his name. Ryan Lanza. He's from Hoboken NJ, and his mom (RIP) lives in Newtown.

The shares of his profile picture just exploded to over 2,500.......
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