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The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:13 pm

For those who don't know Paul Krugman, he's a Nobel Laureate in Economics, NY Times op-ed columnist, and self-labelled liberal. I found his column The G.O.P.'s Existential Crisis to be quite thought provoking.

He makes the points that since the 70s the main thrust of the GOP has been to get rid of the welfare state, which sounds like a popular plan until you start saying what you would cut, namely Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid, which are all popular programs. To do this, the GOP approach has been to try to use tax cuts to force cuts in social spending, or to get so much political strength that they could just force cuts through.

And:

Quote:

O.K., you see the problem: Democrats didn't go along with the program, and refused to give up. Worse, from the Republican point of view, all of their party's sources of strength have turned into weaknesses. Democratic dominance among Hispanics has overshadowed Republican dominance among southern whites; women's rights have trumped the politics of abortion and antigay sentiment; and guess who finally did get Osama bin Laden.

And look at where we are now in terms of the welfare state: far from killing it, Republicans now have to watch as Mr. Obama implements the biggest expansion of social insurance since the creation of Medicare.

So Republicans have suffered more than an election defeat, they've seen the collapse of a decades-long project. And with their grandiose goals now out of reach, they literally have no idea what they want, hence their inability to make specific demands.

It's a dangerous situation. The G.O.P. is lost and rudderless, bitter and angry, but it still controls the House and, therefore, retains the ability to do a lot of harm, as it lashes out in the death throes of the conservative dream.

Our best hope is that business interests will use their influence to limit the damage. But the odds are that the next few years will be very, very ugly.

I see his points.

The GOP has been going down the same road a long time now, and is at a decision point: (a) do we do more of the same, or (b) do we do something different?

Doing more of the same is a bad idea. They've lost the last Presidential election, and demographics are working against them, and what they have been suggesting (trickle down economics) clearly is only working for those at the top. Also their stance on gun control seems to be more and more unpopular.

Doing something different is difficult. First of all, the obstructionist policies of the last few years has chased away many of the people on their side capable of leadership. Secondly they are a diverse mashup of (alleged) fiscal conservatives, social conservatives, religious people and radicals.

I wouldn't want to be in Boehner's shoes right now. He seems the be the one who is at most risk of being labelled the person who took us over the fiscal cliff.

The fiscal cliff is a creation of Congress and one way to overt that would be to undo it as fast as it was done, but that'd be almost as bad to Boehner as going over the cliff would be. My bet is that someone else will end up doing that dirty work so that Boehner can save face.
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seb146
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:06 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
the fiscal cliff
Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
The fiscal cliff

Can we, as a nation, stop calling it the "Fiscal Cliff"? Please and thank you. It is not a cliff. It is a back up plan. They said "If A does not happen, then B will without question."

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
(a) do we do more of the same, or (b) do we do something different?

If they are smart, they will kick out the fringe. But, they are not smart like that. The fringe uses snappy catch phrases to gin up the base. Which, in a way, is smart. It alienates a lot of voters, but, on paper, it sounds good.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:08 pm

I don't really get most of these articles... The GOP was only a few percentage points away from winning. If they drop/change a bit of their platform, I can see them winning 2016.

IIRC there was a lot of this talk after 2004

Yes the GOP needs to change, but I don't see them going extinct anytime soon (as much as I would like to see them getting replaced with the Libertarian party or something)
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:40 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):

Not really. And not only was it a very decisive loss for them, they gave up a lot of seats in the house, and managed to lose horribly in every large MSA to boot.

The damage done to them is more than just a presidential election per se, it's watching "reliable" strongholds go from red to blue and not winning (or even coming meaningfully close) a single "battleground" region. This year's loss was about 6%. Next time will be closer to 20, barring a major and credible overhaul.

Why is this different than 2004... 2004 was indeed a narrower race for starters, and the Dems also didn't sustain likewise losses in contentious states, or lose as many seats in the house and senate. In fact, IIRC, they held onto their majority there. FOX will try to tell you that 2012 & 2004 are similar, but the truth is they're really not. In 2004, the Dems couldn't field a viable candidate, and did not posses the ability to get folks excited about their vision. In 2012, the Republicans were simply found to be peddling useless schlock nobody wants. This isn't a product that can be sold better with just a new salesman.


Libertarians... The problem with these guys is the same problem with Communists. Their vision works well on paper, but in real life requires a damned specific set of parameters to somehow naturally materialize in order to work. They sound innovative, but the truth is that it's basically churched-up anarchy. I will agree though, that it is indeed superior to the baptist taliban dream the GOP seems to be captivated by.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:44 pm

Quote:
I don't really get most of these articles... The GOP was only a few percentage points away from winning. If they drop/change a bit of their platform, I can see them winning 2016.

The bigger picture should be more worrying for Republicans, they've lost the popular vote in 5 out of the past six Presidential elections. The country is progressing, the Republican party is regressing. I've voted twice for Republican Presidential candidates since I've turned 18, the last time was G.W Bush in 2000. He was a tremendous let down to say the least, I liked his "compassionate conservative" platform he had I'm 2000. Suffice to say it never materialized. The platform for the Republicans is more and more outdated and out of touch with each election.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:14 pm

The first Presidential election I can remember was when Ike ran in '52. He was the one person who motivated me to register Republican when I was old enough to register. The GOP has, unfortunately, changed since then. I have this feeling that cash is not more important to them than country. That makes it easy to understand why they prefer tax cuts over feeding the hungry or treating the sick. Why should they worry as long as they can keep taxes low?

BTW, over the years I have normally voted for the Democrat when the GOP President really turned me off. Bush I - great guy stuck with a Sanunu based Presidency. That got me voting for Wild Bill twice. Bush II? Gave the Family another shot - what an embarrassment. After his two terms there was no way I could vote for McCain and Bambi.

At my age I don't have too many elections left, but I find it hard to see how I can support the GOP. It is so far away from the party I joined so many years ago - nothing but a money grab these days.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
If they are smart, they will kick out the fringe.

Maybe the fringe will take over their party. Look at the power the Tea Party held when they went to DC. There is sufficient money behind them to keep going for a long time. Just look at how many highly regarded moderate Republicans that were kicked out by the Tea Party this past Election Primary.


These days it's important to look at the shifts in our population. People of color (any color but white) are increasing as a percentage of the population and the old white men with the $2 haircut address these future voters in a manner that brings in votes. The GOP has relied too long on being against these groups to bring in the white vote. How are they going to bring them to the GOP side?
 
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:21 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
Can we, as a nation, stop calling it the "Fiscal Cliff"? Please and thank you. It is not a cliff. It is a back up plan. They said "If A does not happen, then B will without question."

You are arguing that we shouldn't use the word "cliff", Krugman's article is saying instead of "fiscal" we should use the word "political". We don't have a fiscal cliff, we have a political cliff. Our fiscal issue has a simple solution: borrow more money. Our political issue is that no one wants to keep borrowing money, but our politicians cannot work out how to stop borrowing more money.

I see three main options:

(A) Congress negotiates a settlement
(B) Mandatory across the board cuts kick in
(C) We kick the can down the road yet again
(a) With both sides doing their best to save face
(b) With both sides blaming the other
(c) Permutations of (a) and (b)

I'm not sure if these map to your A and B, but I see A above as very unlikely, B as somewhat likely and C very likely.

Krugman can say why I find A so unlikely better than I can:

Quote:
...these aren’t normal negotiations in which each side presents specific proposals, and horse-trading proceeds until the two sides converge. By all accounts, Republicans have, so far, offered almost no specifics. They claim that they’re willing to raise $800 billion in revenue by closing loopholes, but they refuse to specify which loopholes they would close; they are demanding large cuts in spending, but the specific cuts they have been willing to lay out wouldn’t come close to delivering the savings they demand.

It’s a very peculiar situation. In effect, Republicans are saying to President Obama, “Come up with something that will make us happy.” He is, understandably, not willing to play that game. And so the talks are stuck.

I agree with the column as it goes on to say that the GOP has been so focused on tax cuts being the answer that they don't know what to do when it's clear the President will block anything that doesn't repeal the cuts on the upper two tax brackets.

The GOP has been so good at pushing out moderates that they seem to be lost right now. They seem to find themselves in a position where they have to chose between their base blaming them for caving in on tax cuts versus the whole country blaming them for tanking the economy.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
The GOP was only a few percentage points away from winning. If they drop/change a bit of their platform, I can see them winning 2016.

I think a lot of presidential politics depends on exactly who the candidate is, but it's also true that demographics is working against the GOP.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
IIRC there was a lot of this talk after 2004

This certainly isn't 2004!
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
You are arguing that we shouldn't use the word "cliff", Krugman's article is saying instead of "fiscal" we should use the word "political".

I was actually speaking to Americans in general, not Krugman. It is not a cliff. There is an alternative if the obstructionists decide not to pass anything or compromise with Democrats.

I have a feeling that, in 2014, the right-wing fringe will double down on the one-issue voters. I have a feeling they will be right back to trying to throw just a single percieved divicive issue out and seeing what sticks. Not actually dealing with the real problems of the country that real Republicans want to deal with.

Also, I fear, they will try to get long, long lines at urban voting stations again and blame the Democrats. They will try to take away precincts and voting machines and say "Look at what your party did! Look at what Democrats did to you!!" hoping no one did any research.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:44 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):

For those who don't know Paul Krugman, he's a Nobel Laureate in Economics, NY Times op-ed columnist, and self-labelled liberal. I found his column The G.O.P.'s Existential Crisis to be quite thought provoking.

I'm sorry, but anyone who who considers Krugman as anything but a blowhard, old-school Keynsian with little if anything worthwhile to say is sick. Sure, you may wave the Nobel prize, but Nobel also gave the Peace prize to the likes of Arafat and Obama (not to compare Obama with Arafat, simply that Obama hadn't done jack-shit to get the award). Nobel has become a political statement rewarding people who think like the PC movement of the time.

I stopped reading the thread at the first paragraph when I saw Krugman mentioned.

http://www.fedupusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/KrugmanFail-2.jpg

[Edited 2012-12-15 14:49:45]
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:41 am

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
For those who don't know Paul Krugman, he's a Nobel Laureate in Economics, NY Times op-ed columnist, and self-labelled liberal.

He's also notable for being wrong about a great many things.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):

   Krugman is full of it, although I'd never heard that quote.

Here's another tidbit from Paul Krugman's Big Box of Wisdom:

Quote:
By 2005 or so, it will become clear that the Internet's impact on the economy has been no greater than the fax machine's.

The man may wish to plug in his crystal ball at some point.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:18 am

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
the GOP approach has been to try to use tax cuts to force cuts in social spending

I have suspected that one reason Reagan and GWBush embraced large deficits is because they felt it would pay off their short term constitutency (defense spending hawks) but in the long term actually force the reduction of government programs since they presumed spending cuts and a shrinking govt would be chosen to address the debt they created.
..
..
..
Were it not for the crime of Watergate and the rudeness of Ross Perot running in 1992, I feel the Republicans could have held the presidency from 1968 - 1990s or 2000s.. The country was default on their side as winning white males meant winning the White House.

Don't underestimate the ability of Democrats to become so focused on their leftist agenda that they forget to keep the country's economy running smoothly, just like Bush became so dominated by foreign wars that the stateside economy was just left to crash until it was too late to stop.


Pu
 
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:24 am

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
The country was default on their side as winning white males meant winning the White House.

And that's their problem: they are running out of angry white men to keep in power. Their "white men only" stance alienates a lot of people. They, somehow, make their positions sound appealing to a few "minority" voters, but, when all is said and done, they are just a bunch of angry white men.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:45 am

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 3):
2004, the Dems couldn't field a viable candidate, and did not posses the ability to get folks excited about their vision.

Yes and no. Kerry was actually quite close but the clever folks at the GOP and their media arm Fox News stoked up the divide conquer and fear factors by:

1. The Swift Boat bashing of Kerry
2. The eviness of Gays being able to walk down the aisle and say I Do to each other

Also it seems too much like a coincidence that an Osama Bin Laden tape conveniently was broadcast days before the Presidential election, on the Friday before Election Day.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:52 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
That makes it easy to understand why they prefer tax cuts over feeding the hungry or treating the sick. Why should they worry as long as they can keep taxes low?

I truly hope a "balanced approach" is taken. Revenue has to be addressed. Spending has to be addressed.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
It is not a cliff. There is an alternative if the obstructionists decide not to pass anything or compromise with Democrats.

Ok, I see your point.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
I have a feeling that, in 2014, the right-wing fringe will double down on the one-issue voters. I have a feeling they will be right back to trying to throw just a single percieved divicive issue out and seeing what sticks. Not actually dealing with the real problems of the country that real Republicans want to deal with.

What single issue for them can be a winner?
> Gun Rights
> Every (Hetro) Sperm is Sacred
> Defense of Marriage
> Creationism
> Denial of Global Warming
> Defend our Borders

It kind of makes it clear why they stuck with "Read My Lips No New Taxes" for the last few decades, and why they're willing to go over the cliff for it today, because outside of that, there's not much that unifies the GOP.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
I'm sorry, but anyone who who considers Krugman as anything but a blowhard, old-school Keynsian with little if anything worthwhile to say is sick

I'm no disciple of the man, but sick? Oh my...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
I stopped reading the thread at the first paragraph when I saw Krugman mentioned.

As is your right.

On the other hand, you might just want to participate in a discussion of what direction the GOP should take, regardless of the initiation.

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
I have suspected that one reason Reagan and GWBush embraced large deficits is because they felt it would pay off their short term constitutency (defense spending hawks) but in the long term actually force the reduction of government programs since they presumed spending cuts and a shrinking govt would be chosen to address the debt they created.

Interesting point, which points out another shift the GOP has to deal with. The Cold War is over and the War on Terror is winding down and the public appetite for massive defense spending is winding down too.

Quoting Pu (Reply 10):
Don't underestimate the ability of Democrats to become so focused on their leftist agenda that they forget to keep the country's economy running smoothly, just like Bush became so dominated by foreign wars that the stateside economy was just left to crash until it was too late to stop.

Indeed, and as above, that's why I hope we see the balanced approach. Hopefully that will give the markets some confidence that the government is capable of rational decisions.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:19 pm

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 12):

Very true. And Romney had nothing like that level of "scandal" (for lack of better term), and still lost by a greater margin.

In fact his campaign, aside from Ryan's perpetual moronship and the 47% remark, was largely trouble free, and not very controversial. He lost because he ran as a Republican more than for any other reason, and I think that's a huge part of what differentiates this from 2004.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:27 pm

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 14):
aside from Ryan's perpetual moronship

Ryan is an unfortunate example of what happens when you actually spell out the things you would cut. Seems his party members have taken that to heart by doing their damnedest to not spell out the things they would cut.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 14):
He lost because he ran as a Republican more than for any other reason, and I think that's a huge part of what differentiates this from 2004.

He ran to the right through the primaries, but then had to tack to the center to have any chance at winning the big prize. That's the problem for the GOP. They're this coalition of single issue voters, whose single issues on their own might win enough support, but when you lump them together you get a single party who has the opposition of all those who disagree on those single issues, and ends up coming across as regressive rather than progressive.

I suppose their best play would be to truly be the fiscally conservative party, but from this recent election we see the voters don't trust them to run the economy any more so than they do the Dems, so the GOP would have to find a way to change people's minds on this.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:06 am

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 14):
In fact his campaign, aside from Ryan's perpetual moronship and the 47% remark, was largely trouble free, and not very controversial. He lost because he ran as a Republican more than for any other reason, and I think that's a huge part of what differentiates this from 2004.

Outside of the obvious issues with GOP positions that are just not in line with the changing demographics in the US that may have been a problem. The saying is that any publicity is good publicity and had Romney/Ryan made more of a stir then they may have had a better chance, or they would have lost by more.

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 12):
Yes and no. Kerry was actually quite close but the clever folks at the GOP and their media arm Fox News stoked up the divide conquer and fear factors by:

1. The Swift Boat bashing of Kerry
2. The eviness of Gays being able to walk down the aisle and say I Do to each other

Those democrats were pussies and now they are a lot more aggressive and the GOP can't stand it  .

Had that election taken place now the democrats would have nominated Howard Dean, the person they should have in 2004.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
What single issue for them can be a winner?
> Gun Rights
> Every (Hetro) Sperm is Sacred
> Defense of Marriage
> Creationism
> Denial of Global Warming
> Defend our Borders

None of those, demographics and attitudes are changing and many of those issues the majority of the population is on one side ot them. Not necessarily the position that the democrats own either.

The talk of guns rights being changed isn't a serious issue that the democrats at large are going to get behind.
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seb146
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:05 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
there's not much that unifies the GOP.

Yes. It is hate. Hate is the unifying thing for the GOP. Hate of gays. Hate of abortion. Hate of anyone not white voting. Hate of anything non-Christian. Hate unifies the GOP. They will simply cry about hate and hope they get enough people under their tent to win a majority.

Here is the difference between the right-wing and the Democrats: Democrats understand and accept that people are not single-issue voters. Democrats understand that not everyone is against guns. Not everyone is against abortion or gay rights or redistricting or unions or whatever. Democrats understand there are 100,000 shades of grey. Not everything is aboslute. I think that is the main difference. The right-wing needs to get over it.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):

Yes. It is hate. Hate is the unifying thing for the GOP. Hate of gays. Hate of abortion. Hate of anyone not white voting. Hate of anything non-Christian. Hate unifies the GOP.

Holy crap. I think it is YOU who has the hate problem Seb. I see this a lot with liberals - they work themselves up into a lather, convincing themselves and each other that Conservatives/Republicans hate them, I suppose to be able to feel better about themselves hating them back.

Psychologically it makes sense that liberals hate more than conservatives. Liberals (in their own mind) are out to accomplish something - to improve the world via the power of government, to right wrongs and avenge the downtrodden. They feel morally superior to anyone who stands in their way. The language used says it all - "Progressives" want to advance - move forward, ergo anyone who is against them must in turn be backwards and anti-progress. Don't you just hate them? To a liberal's way of thinking, opposing progressivism is like a Pratt & Whitney engineer being told to use pig-iron for engine internals instead of titanium.

Conservatives on the other hand are not being prevented from doing something. They want small government that generally stays out of our way and allows us to live our lives as best we can, and we don't like being told that we are being backward because we don't buy into all the wonderful ideas you libs have. We have the sense (shared by our country's founders), that the more a centralized government tries to do, the more unintended consequences come up to bite you in the ass, so we want it only to do what is strictly necessary, things that nobody else can do. So the feeling from conservatives is not so much hatred, but exasperation.

History is full of examples of societies where a highly motivated segment of the population want to take over and push the country in a certain direction, pitted against the conservative part that says, "No, we don't want to go there", and that history also shows that the bulk of the hatred tends to come from the former group. Russian revolution, Nazi Germany, 1950s China, and so forth, all pitting the Statists against people who basically want to be left alone.

The wildcard is the the evangelical segment of society - the bible thumpers. Only 10-20% of the population, but enough of a swing for votes, and they cost Romney the election, I think. I've talked with many of them who, while being traditionally Republican and fiscally conservative, voted for Obama this time around purely because Romney was a Mormon, and "I just can't vote for someone who is a member of a Cult". I'm sure some of them have said prayers for my soul after I gave them my invective-laced opinions of their priorities.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:29 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
Our fiscal issue has a simple solution: borrow more money.

I don't have an axe to grind in this holy war, but I do wonder how long the borrow more money solution can last. I won't buy into "debates" between libertarians, liberals and conservatives because those terms have completely different meanings in the rest of the world. My question is, in the medium to long term, how does the US see itself addressing both mounting debt and increasing problems of international competitiveness?

As long as the US is able to maintain its position of providing a reserve currency internationally, printing money to pay debts may work, But what if a point is reached when foreign creditors say "enough is enough, we don't want to be repaid in devalued dollars"?

It seems to me that their are two things holding that off at the moment. The cost of losing potential exports to the US if a basket of currencies repayment scheme was adopted and the military power of the US that leads many investors to see the US as a safe refuge. But how long will that remain true?
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:33 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
Yes. It is hate. Hate is the unifying thing for the GOP. Hate of gays. Hate of abortion. Hate of anyone not white voting. Hate of anything non-Christian. Hate unifies the GOP. They will simply cry about hate and hope they get enough people under their tent to win a majority.

Hmm definitely gonna pull the BS card on that. I know dozens and dozens of right leaning folk, and while some of them do get pretty crazy (hateful) most of them don't. In fact, the majority are concerned with the economic aspect of it, and no, it's not as cut and dry as "they must be for big business' profits and throwing old people on the street and hate poor people."

Have some empathy... otherwise, when people say you hate "small businesses" and "freedoms" and "American security" and all the other stuff you get accused of, you have no right to say "hey, I don't hate _____, I just think __insert logical reason here____"

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
I see this a lot with liberals - they work themselves up into a lather, convincing themselves and each other that Conservatives/Republicans hate them, I suppose to be able to feel better about themselves hating them back.

Psychologically it makes sense that liberals hate more than conservatives.

Again, it goes both ways. I know more right leaning people than left leaning people, but I know them well and their reasons for things, while different than some of mine and most other friends I have, aren't carved out of irrationality and hatred. If you go looking, it's very easy to find hateful liberals (and conservatives) and often in the heat of the debate the argument does get intense, but that doesn't mean they don't have logical reasons for their positions


tl;dr you both are accusing each other of being hateful and doing the exact thing you hate being applied to you!
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:37 pm

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 19):
My question is, in the medium to long term, how does the US see itself addressing both mounting debt and increasing problems of international competitiveness?

The traditional solution for an over-indebted country is to devalue the currency, which impacts everyone's living standards, but most especially those with positive net worth (i.e. those who own more assets than what they owe). Considering how much the current administration seems to despise those people, I don't think he'd have a problem doing it.

Devaluing the currency would be a great gift to those people who are upside down on their mortgages, unless they were foolish enough to take adjustable rate mortgages. But anyone with a fixed-rate note (and that includes the federal government - all T-Bills are effectively fixed rate) will find that their debt load is much easier to pay.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 19):
But what if a point is reached when foreign creditors say "enough is enough, we don't want to be repaid in devalued dollars"?

I think that will happen in the next couple of years.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:39 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
tl;dr you both are accusing each other of being hateful and doing the exact thing you hate being applied to you!

I don't hate liberals. I just think they're idiots. You don't hate the village idiot.

[Edited 2012-12-17 08:39:43]
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
I don't hate liberals. I just think they're idiots. You don't hate the village idiot.

But you don't respect them either, and in that comes the biggest problem. Too much of your sentimentatliy in the current GOP.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:23 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
I don't really get most of these articles... The GOP was only a few percentage points away from winning. If they drop/change a bit of their platform, I can see them winning 2016.

You're right. Plus, the GOP had a particularly weak candidate in Mitt Romney up against a very telegenic Obama.

Demographics, though, are against the GOP. They need to reach out to Jews, Hispanics and Asians, show they are immigration friendly, and expunge the religious radicals.

ALL Conservative parties elsewhere in the Western world have bought into gay marriage and abortion. The GOP needs to adopt socially progressive policies as its own (while maintaining its fiscal and military hawk status) and it will do much better.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:36 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 23):
But you don't respect them either, and in that comes the biggest problem.

Respect is earned, not owed by default.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 24):
Demographics, though, are against the GOP. They need to reach out to Jews, Hispanics and Asians, show they are immigration friendly,

Therein lies the problem. Conservatives do not like to talk to and treat people differently. White, black, women, men, gay or straight, we want a government who treats everyone on an equal basis. The Democratic party over the last couple of generations has become what it is by calling out to all the different minorities, reinforcing their feelings of being separate, promising each one little special favors, with the implication that whites/straights/men are treating you unfairly and a benevolent government must take care of you. And sure enough when you get all the different minorities together you outnumber the majority. If you are a one-legged black lesbian muslim single mother, you are a walking, talking orgasm for a liberal politician.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:40 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Respect is earned, not owed by default.

Yes it is owed, especially in Congress where those viewpoints are represented. there are many subjective priorites for funding and spending that are to be balanced.

For the laymen that are self centered, respect is probably neither given or recieved on the two sides.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:46 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 22):
I don't hate liberals. I just think they're idiots.

Hmm, nice generalisation. However, idiocy is certainly bipartisan.   
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:52 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
I know dozens and dozens of right leaning folk, and while some of them do get pretty crazy (hateful) most of them don't.

This is what I am talking about: There are many reasonable right-leaning folk in this country. Some of them have been conditioned to hate anything their party stands for. Some of them have been conditioned to say "since there is a liberal plan, it is bad for America, therefore, I must hate it." I understand there are open minded right-wingers out there who are willing to listen and even accept some things Democrats want to try. But, what I see and hear from right-wingers are: hate anything that is not supported by FOX, Limbaugh and the right-wing extremists. That includes right-wingers who are willing to compromise. They must be hated and kicked out of the party for they are simply RINOs, not real Republicans.

I can't believe I have to keep repeating myself: I am just reporting what I see and not making blanket statements. I know (as do many Democrats and precious few Republicans) there are exceptions. But, what is being reported by FOX/Limbaugh, etc. is what I see. Not every single person in this country.

I can't believe I need to write out that disclaimer every single time I post. It is really getting old....

[Edited 2012-12-17 10:53:18]
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:26 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
The Cold War is over and the War on Terror is winding down and the public appetite for massive defense spending is winding down too.

Just because the Cold War is over does not absolve us of the need to maintain a modern and powerful conventional military. And the War on Terror is not as large scale as it once was, but it is continuing and must continue. It would be a shame if it took another 9/11 to convince anti-defense people that terrorism isn't dead.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
Democrats understand that not everyone is against guns.

Not that it stops some of them from trying to take guns from those people.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
they work themselves up into a lather, convincing themselves and each other that Conservatives/Republicans hate them

How else do you interpret not being allowed to use other people's money to solve your problems?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 19):
My question is, in the medium to long term, how does the US see itself addressing both mounting debt and increasing problems of international competitiveness?

It depends. If liberals get their way, the solution is taking as much money from the rich as they can get away with and keeping competitive via protectionism. Or having enough welfare that whether one is employed or unemployed is basically moot.

My solution would be to cut a ton of crap from the government, especially entitlements, and hold the line on further regulations. For competitiveness, America has to compete rather than cheat. Some of the government savings need to go into education and tax laws must be reformed to make doing business in America a better proposition.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
But, what I see and hear from right-wingers are: hate anything that is not supported by FOX, Limbaugh and the right-wing extremists.

You're seeing what you want to see.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
I am just reporting what I see and not making blanket statements.

Not only do you see what you want to see, you don't care to admit that you don't see anything close to the full picture. And you're going to assert that you are not making blanket statements after you wrote:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 11):
when all is said and done, [Republicans] are just a bunch of angry white men.

and

Quoting seb146 (Reply 17):
Hate is the unifying thing for the GOP.

Really? Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:57 pm

I think the GOP does not have a problem with us going over the "cliff" or whatever in the hell you call it. Here's why... waaay back in the day someone in power said, "Don't worry about the deficit, just STARVE THE BEAST." Seems the GOP leadership is playing it quiet on this strategy as God forbid, when all those senior voters being fed by the beast have their entitlements cut there is gonna be hell to pay. Rather elegant really, once the smoke from "falling off the cliff" clears, rather than blaming themselves for laying this egg near 20 years ago, it will appear to be President Obama's fault because he is currently in power.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:10 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 30):
it will appear to be President Obama's fault because he is currently in power.

Recent polls point to the contrary.

The President is asking for the tax rates on the top 2% to be raised, and the GOP has been balking on that point. There are signs they are coming around, but if we hit the fiscall cliff over 2% of the population the blame by the sane will point straight at the GOP by allowing everyone's taxes to go up.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:12 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
The wildcard is the the evangelical segment of society - the bible thumpers. Only 10-20% of the population, but enough of a swing for votes, and they cost Romney the election, I think. I've talked with many of them who, while being traditionally Republican and fiscally conservative, voted for Obama this time around purely because Romney was a Mormon, and "I just can't vote for someone who is a member of a Cult". I'm sure some of them have said prayers for my soul after I gave them my invective-laced opinions of their priorities.

As above, I think the GOP has its biggest problems due to its stands on society/culture/religion, because many of the stands they take are divisive and increasingly unpopular.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
Just because the Cold War is over does not absolve us of the need to maintain a modern and powerful conventional military. And the War on Terror is not as large scale as it once was, but it is continuing and must continue. It would be a shame if it took another 9/11 to convince anti-defense people that terrorism isn't dead.

LOL, such a knee jerk reaction. You immediately imply we'll have an out of date and weak military if we even look at defense spending. We need to look at defense spending as well as everything else, given that we spend more on defense than the rest of the world combined. It seems more and more likely Boehner is taking us over the cliff because the vote for the new House Majority Leader happens after Jan 1st, so we'll see what happens when DoD gets an immediate 10% cut, which is: nothing, they will adjust!

I don't think the GOP thrives on hatred, but one common thread I see behind their policies is fear. It explains their love of guns, their love of big defense, their anti-immigrant stances, their anti-gay stance, etc. We see it in BMI's comment where he wants us to be in fear of another 9/11 unless we fund the DoD to the hilt.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:37 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 32):
You immediately imply we'll have an out of date and weak military if we even look at defense spending.

If defense spending is gutted for a number of years that's exactly what happens. Especially when the force is depleted after a decade of war. Reagan ran up some big deficits, but a good portion of that was correcting the post-Vietnam and Carter era neglect of the armed forces.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 32):
so we'll see what happens when DoD gets an immediate 10% cut, which is: nothing, they will adjust!

Evidence? Of course there's also the matter of defense contractors potentially faced with layoffs.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 32):
We see it in BMI's comment where he wants us to be in fear of another 9/11 unless we fund the DoD to the hilt.

How many terror attacks were there in the decade or so leading up to 9/11 that were more or less ignored? It took 9/11 to get America to take terrorism seriously and now people are suddenly deciding that the War on Terror is over because we say it was? Seems to me the liberals who want to cut defense funding are the ones standing in front of a "Mission Accomplished" banner now. I don't see how anyone in their right mind can believe that the military needs to also add a second prong to fight terrorism in addition to the traditional force (which can indeed be smaller after the end of the Cold War). What surrender document did Al Qaeda sign?
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:55 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
Of course there's also the matter of defense contractors potentially faced with layoffs.

As opposed to the contractors for other portions of the federal budget?
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:57 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):

Hmm definitely gonna pull the BS card on that

But he has a very good point. While you are correct that the rank-and-file GOP constituency may not be made up of hatemongers who want to march everyone not White, heterosexual, and Christian off to the gas chambers, there are two uncomfortable truths:

1) The GOP's Platform is pretty explicit in its hatred for gays and anyone allying themselves with the GOP is, by definition, allying themselves with that Platform.

2) The "Anti-" people get an awful lot of airtime within the GOP. Let's just look at the GOP Presidential Candidate lineup. Out of the six candidates, three of them (Mr. Santorum, Mr. Perry, Mr. Bachmann) ran their campaigns with anti-gay sentiment being a central pillar of their campaign platforms. All of them signed a pledge by NOM to support an amendment to the Constitution (odd for a party that wants smaller government) banning gay marriage. The NOM is backed by the FRC and AFA, both defined as Hate Groups by the SPLC and both of whom have said that gays are less than human in essentially as many words.

Now, you can talk about the GOP's economic record (lacking though it may be) but the fact is that their economic policies are absolutely wedded to their social policies. Those social policies in which rape can be "voluntary" vs. "legitimate," in which gays are to be marginalized and in which sodomy should even be criminalized, etc. are turning off a lot of voters.

Consider this: Mr. Obama won the last election by ~2.5M votes. It is estimated that he won 75% of the gay vote, which would amount to about 3.9 million votes. It could very well be argued that the GOP's social stance on gay marriage ALONE cost them the election.

So while you are correct to point out that not every GOP-leaning American wears the funny white robes with the pointy hats and enjoys burning crosses on Friday night after work, the GOP gives those people an awful lot of visibility and publicity and, like it or not, they represent the GOP.

If I were a moderate-leaning GOP politician, I'd be starting to chat with moderate-leaning DNC politicians about possibly forming a third party that is socially liberal and fiscally conservative. It would be weak at first and it might even fail, but if it succeeds, it could positively alter the face of American politics in the long-term.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:10 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):

How many terror attacks were there in the decade or so leading up to 9/11 that were more or less ignored? It took 9/11 to get America to take terrorism seriously and now people are suddenly deciding that the War on Terror is over because we say it was?

I think if you read up on 9/11 the issue was not the military, it was the FBI and CIA failing to do their jobs. I'm not sure how tons of defense spending fixes that.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 2):
I don't really get most of these articles... The GOP was only a few percentage points away from winning. If they drop/change a bit of their platform, I can see them winning 2016.

The media has been calling the GOP dead since JFK victory over Nixon.Not to mention God.(lol) Time magazine.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:40 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 34):
As opposed to the contractors for other portions of the federal budget?

How many layoffs do you think Walmart will have because they sell fewer Cheetos and Kools?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
But he has a very good point. While you are correct that the rank-and-file GOP constituency may not be made up of hatemongers who want to march everyone not White, heterosexual, and Christian off to the gas chambers, there are two uncomfortable truths:

I don't care except in the aspect that it makes it harder for them to win. I'm worried about economic issues and money in my pocket, and if fixing that means voting the same way as some bigots and racists, so be it. I'm interested in being better off financially and trying to care about moral or social issues at the same time doesn't help that so I don't bother.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 36):
I think if you read up on 9/11 the issue was not the military, it was the FBI and CIA failing to do their jobs. I'm not sure how tons of defense spending fixes that.

Personally I would tend to throw defense and Homeland Security under the same tent. Particularly in the future the gaps between military, intelligence, and the civilian law enforcement communities will become smaller, which is the way it has to be in what will be an intelligence and information driven war.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 38):
How many layoffs do you think Walmart will have because they sell fewer Cheetos and Kools?

Fairly negligent view of the federal budget.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:59 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
Not that it stops some of them from trying to take guns from those people.

Ah, but not all of them. Just a few of them. The ones the right-wing wants to obsess over. The ones the right-wing points to and says "AH-HAH!! ALL liberals want to take away your guns because those two or three are doing it, they all want to do it!"

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
You're seeing what you want to see.

*sigh*

Again, for the umteenth time, I need to say NOT EVERY REPUBLICAN IS LIKE THAT!!! The ones I refer to are the ones who are most vocal; the ones on FOX and with their own radio shows. The ones who shout down callers and guests who dare disagree with them. Those are the ones to whom I am referring. NOT the reasonable ones like MD90 and BMI727.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:13 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
Just because the Cold War is over does not absolve us of the need to maintain a modern and powerful conventional military.

No one with sense is saying that shouldn't be the case but when you have a military that is bigger than the next 12 countries combined and have a budget crisis some things should be looked at. No country is going to mess with the US in a 20th century war scenario.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Therein lies the problem. Conservatives do not like to talk to and treat people differently. White, black, women, men, gay or straight, we want a government who treats everyone on an equal basis.

Tell that the the people running the GOP, they can't articulate that very well at all.
There were many things said in this past campaign that wouldn't make Latinos, Blacks, Women (especially single women) vote GOP even if they are conservative on many issues.

- Telling illegal Mexicans who have legal friends and colleagues to self deport isn't going to win you votes. Immigration reform is needed but a comment like that isn't a good starting point.

- Telling women that contraception should be denied from your insurance provider because your employer has a moral objection isn't what the majority of American think.

What needs to be done with the GOP is to engage the changing demographics into creating a new platform that appeals more broadly to the middle of the political spectrum, because that is how you win elections.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:58 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
Tell that the the people running the GOP, they can't articulate that very well at all.

They should not have to. By default, politicians should be talking to everyone with the same message. No one group should think that they are getting screwed in favor of someone else, which is generally the feeling that we get from Obama.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
- Telling illegal Mexicans who have legal friends and colleagues to self deport isn't going to win you votes.

They shouldn;t be voting anyway.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
- Telling women that contraception should be denied from your insurance provider because your employer has a moral objection isn't what the majority of American think.

The entire purpose of the Bill of Rights and Natural Law is to protect the rights of the minority. Just because the majority want something does not make it right.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
What needs to be done with the GOP is to engage the changing demographics into creating a new platform that appeals more broadly to the middle of the political spectrum, because that is how you win elections.

Let's take abortion. The general GOP position over a number of years has been for reasonable restrictions on abortion - late term abortions or parental notification for example. That appears to be much closer to the middle ground than the no-restrictions policy of today's Democratic Party. Unfortunately we had a couple of morons go off the reservation a couple of months ago, and believe me, the GOP was royally pissed at them.

See the CBS News/New York Times Poll

http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:11 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 40):
Again, for the umteenth time, I need to say NOT EVERY REPUBLICAN IS LIKE THAT!!!

So you continue to make generalizations and then tell everyone that you aren't making generalizations and it's just what you see.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 40):
The ones I refer to are the ones who are most vocal; the ones on FOX and with their own radio shows. The ones who shout down callers and guests who dare disagree with them.

You love those guys because they fit your view of what conservatives are. It's like racists looking at urban gangsters as justification that black people are bad.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
No country is going to mess with the US in a 20th century war scenario.

I'm sure people thought that around 1991 when the threat of the Soviet Union was waning. But while the massive showdown is less likely than before, there is also the twin needs to retain and update the "20th century" capability while building a "21st Century" military that is quicker reacting and more based on intelligence and information than before.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:17 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
But, what I see and hear from right-wingers are: hate anything that is not supported by FOX, Limbaugh and the right-wing extremists.

Stepping back, I see quite a few on the left spew out talking points. Not gonna argue who is worse or has more of those people, but often the same people accusing the other side of doing that are guilty of that themselves...

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
I am just reporting what I see and not making blanket statements

Well, I apologize if I misunderstood, but you do very often make blanket statements... I'll keep that in mind next time but every Joe Shmoe on the board isn't going to know that

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
I can't believe I need to write out that disclaimer every single time I post. It is really getting old....

Just insert the word "many" or "most" before you say "right wingers." I'm not trying to be annoying... it just really does appear intolerant and stereotypical. I and others cannot read your mind. Just trying to help

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 35):
So while you are correct to point out that not every GOP-leaning American wears the funny white robes with the pointy hats and enjoys burning crosses on Friday night after work, the GOP gives those people an awful lot of visibility and publicity and, like it or not, they represent the GOP.

I agree with this. There is a difference between the average right leaning American (that I interact with, at least,) the party itself, and the crazies. I could be just completely naive, I've never seen those rapid right wingers in person, I know they are out there. Maybe I've just been lucky and all my experiences have been skewed

[Edited 2012-12-17 16:38:24]
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:29 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
I could be just completely naive, I've never seen those rapid right wingers in person, I know they are out there. Maybe I've just been lucky and all my experiences have been skewed

Part of that is because you are a heterosexual white man who is at least nominally Christian.

Try being a Gay Jew for a day and they pop out of the woodwork.
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:37 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 45):
Try being a Gay

I see what you did there...  

But that is true, although, I am talking about when I actually dig deeper to see what their political thoughts are. I know this sounds crazy and illogical to you, but I've met people against gay marriage who aren't at all hateful... it's just so deeply ingrained in them but I could honestly say it is not always hate. May be misguided and stereotypical, and I have met the very anti-gay "we hate them type" but I've also met people that have just thought that way forever and just think "it's not right" but they'd never lift a finger to hurt them.

I can say that because I used to be in that boat, held no hatred, just a feeling that "it wasn't right" (due to the opinion just existing around me, going unquestioned.) Not anymore though  
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RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:41 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
So you continue to make generalizations and then tell everyone that you aren't making generalizations and it's just what you see.

That is who I have to base my observations on. Further, those who get their information only from the right-wing media are nearly impossible to have an intelligent conversation with.

Before I get jumped on: Yes, it happens from the left, too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
You love those guys because they fit your view of what conservatives are.

Actually, I can't stand those people becuase they are the whole reason the right-wing is imploding. They have made it so difficult for anyone to voice an opinion because those who have a different opinion are un-American liberals. Look at Hollywood: The celebrities who tow the party line (right-wing) are the ones who are praised for being patriots. Any other celebrity who voices an opinion that comes close to the Democrats are condemned as liberals who hate America. While I do not agree with Clint Eastwood or Jon Voigt, they should have an opinion as much as Barbara Striesand or Matt Damon.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
Well, I apologize if I misunderstood, but you do very often make blanket statements...

It is partly me. My brain gets ahead of my fingers and I sometimes think I have covered all my bases.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
Stepping back, I see quite a few on the left spew out talking points. Not gonna argue who is worse or has more of those people, but often the same people accusing the other side of doing that are guilty of that themselves...

Absolutly it happens from both sides. I will never disagree with that point. However, what I see (and this is just my observation) is that "liberal" talkers are more willing to let those with differing opinions speak more. The result ist the same, but, that is what I have seen and heard.
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DocLightning
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:03 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
I see what you did there...

Was it that obvious? *cringe*

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
I can say that because I used to be in that boat, held no hatred, just a feeling that "it wasn't right" (due to the opinion just existing around me, going unquestioned.) Not anymore though

That's what makes you different. You actually questioned a longstanding belief of yours and found that belief invalid, so you changed your belief.

The people who just keep on repeating "it's not right" still hurt me. I'm still not married. We have no spousal rights. I'm only on his insurance because his workplace allows it. I can't be on his disability insurance. I can't be on his life insurance (I can be a beneficiary only). It hurts us every day. When someone says "stop hurting me" and you say "I won't stop because not hurting you isn't right," what does that make you?
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
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DeltaMD90
Posts: 8245
Joined: Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:25 pm

RE: The G.O.P.’s Existential Crisis

Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:14 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 48):
The people who just keep on repeating "it's not right" still hurt me. I'm still not married. We have no spousal rights. I'm only on his insurance because his workplace allows it. I can't be on his disability insurance. I can't be on his life insurance (I can be a beneficiary only). It hurts us every day. When someone says "stop hurting me" and you say "I won't stop because not hurting you isn't right," what does that make you?

Oh, no doubt it's wrong, but I think the difference is the way you approach them. Quite honestly, if you have hate (true hatred, in your heart) nothing anyone can say will stop you from hating gays. But there are many out there (like the past me) who can be reasoned with and persuaded, but absolutely shut down when they get berated (even if it is justified)

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 48):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
I see what you did there...

Was it that obvious? *cringe*

I overlooked it at first... but then my eye caught the first half of the sentence   

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
It is partly me. My brain gets ahead of my fingers and I sometimes think I have covered all my bases.

I know the feeling, my friend... I get it all the time. Try being a gun owner and advocating some gun control, or a right leaning citizen advocating something left of center (or defending the President) and forgetting the "I'm a gun owner or right of center person" disclaimer... you get accused of some pretty strange things lol.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)

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