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Revelation
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Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:18 am

I've read/heard several reports that say that an unintended side effect of the Newtown shootings is that gun affectionados are rushing out to buy assault rifles (quaintly called "modern sporting rifles" by Dick's Sporting Goods) and high capacity magazines (30 to 100 bullets), fearing a possible (if not likely) ban on such things in the near future.

One smaller gun shop owner was unable to resist the urge to call this a stimulus, sigh...

One person said they were trying to save for a down payment for a truck, but instead are buying guns. I don't see how a gun will help them get to work in the morning?

The fear is that there are proposals for banning assault rifles and magazines that hold more than 10 shots.

Very sad that these folks feel such a ban will be an imposition.
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Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
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ltbewr
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:37 am

For several years since President Obama was first elected, there has been a surge of gun and bullet sales due to fears of a return of bans on certain classes of guns and bullets on the national level. Many believe so literaly in the 2nd Amendment that the government cannot limit gun sales and possession they want to be armed to 'keep the government in check'. That has been made even worse by the pressure from the Newtown school massacre. The Great Recession, the collaspe of the middle class and it's jobs, the 'Mayan Calander' cycle ending, increasing street crime violence in some areas (like Chicago), fewer cops, racism (especially with a President of African herritage), the failure to deal with illegal immigration, the illegal drug trade with it's violence, major weather/enviromental changes like major storms, failures to deal with the problem of mental illness, all have been factors too. Some shows on the cable channels have given attention to the 'prepper' movement and many of them horde guns and bulllets.
 
Mir
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:54 am

This isn't new. As I've said before, the Obama administration has been the best thing the gun industry has seen for a long time. Every time someone anywhere said a thing about gun control, the NRA could act like Obama was about to take away everyone's guns (even though he hasn't done anything of the sort, and has in fact signed legislation allowing people to carry guns in more places), and there would be a run on gun stores as people panicked and decided they needed to buy everything they could right then and there. Rinse and repeat several months later. It lets the NRA look like they're doing their job, and it's obviously very good for the gun shops and manufacturers.

It is utterly ridiculous, but people buy things based on highly irrational urges all the time, and this is no different.

The difference this time is that a ban on the sort of weapons that were used in Newtown might actually happen (and particularly assault rifles). So I suppose it's justified for the first time in a while. But I really would question the priorities of someone who's been saving up for a truck but decides to get an assault rifle instead. And I would question the sanity of anyone who thinks that guns in general are going to be banned - nobody in any position of power has called for that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
sudden
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:21 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
I don't see how a gun will help them get to work in the morning?

By taking out the other drivers during rush hour!?
When in doubt, flat out!
 
ajd1992
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:28 pm

Surely if there is a ban on these weapons (which IMO should not be available to the public anyway, but that's not for this thread) then they'll be illegal once the ban comes in and anybody caught with one would be in violation of a Federal law (from what I gather?) which would be several years bending over in the showers for Bubba in a Supermax?
 
CaptCufflinks
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:47 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
I don't see how a gun will help them get to work in the morning?

Clearly you've never played 'Grand Theft Auto'

In all seriousness, though, I do tend to agree with ajd1992 - surely by banning the purchase of these guns, thereby making them illegal, you're making them illegal to keep also? Without banning the ownership and the purchase of the guns, there's no point doing one or the other, surely.
 
smittyone
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:49 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 1):
Many believe so literaly in the 2nd Amendment that the government cannot limit gun sales and possession they want to be armed to 'keep the government in check'.

I'm no legal scholar so all I can offer about the 'intent of the 2nd Amendment' is my personal opinion...on its face I find it illogical to assume that just because it made sense in the 1770s for members of the colonial militia - basically every able bodied male at that time - to maintain their service weapons (muskets) at home, it automatically makes sense that private citizens should be allowed to maintain military grade hardware at home in 2012. The world has changed...and the real analogy between 1775 and today would be for National Guard troops (ie the state militias) to keep their M-16s and M-240s with ammo under their beds, and nobody as yet has seen the sense in allowing that.

Either way, if you think you're going to stop government tyranny/opression with an assault rifle (30 shot magazines or not)...you're gonna have a bad time. It's nothing more than a wet dream for paranoid people.

The internet is the musket of the 21st century...indeed throughout history we have seen that the pen is indeed much mightier than the sword (or assault rifle as the case may be). The American Revolution succeeded due to the power of what people like Thomas Jefferson wrote, not the average citizen's freedom to own hunting weapons, or members of the militia to store their small arms at home. Had the French not fallen in love with the idea of liberty so beautifully articulated in Philadelphia (and with the idea of an easy way to poke the British in the eye) the Revolution would have just been a sad, failed colonial civil war.

So it is unbelievably ironic that those who immediately go into a hysterical circle jerk at the slightest mention of gun restrictions are more than happy to get into bed with the gun-loving 'Right' who would seek to limit our FIRST Amendment freedoms...particularly when it comes to the nexus of religion and government. Dont' even get me started on the FOURTH Amendment.

Edit: I recognize that Jefferson and others also wrote about the right to own weapons for personal defense...to me that is a separate issue that can/should be discussed on its own merits without being confounded by this 'government tyranny' bit.

[Edited 2012-12-20 05:57:46]
 
NAV20
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
Surely if there is a ban on these weapons (which IMO should not be available to the public anyway, but that's not for this thread) then they'll be illegal once the ban comes in

Sorry mate, no. Not peculiar to the USA, the law's the same pretty well everywhere. Any ban would not apply to weapons that are already owned - it could only apply to future purchases...........

I suppose that, in theory. Obama could try to get Congress to agree to 'retrospective' gun controls - forcing people to surrender their more dangerous weapons.. But he wouldn't succeed - for a start, it would cost too much in compensation. And, if he even tried, he'd probably face a re-run of the American Revolution - with the general public, as in 1775, at least as well armed as the local army......  

[Edited 2012-12-20 06:08:48]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
smittyone
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:04 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
and, if he tried, he'd probsbly face a rer-run of the American Revolution - with the general public, as in 1775, at least as well armed as the local army......

The only result of that re-run would be a glut of one-owner pickup trucks on the used market.
 
sudden
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:05 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Another gun thread?
Beating a dead horse here.

It will last for about a week and then it dies out until the next shooting etc. etc. etc......................
When in doubt, flat out!
 
Superfly
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:24 pm

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
I've read/heard several reports that say that an unintended side effect of the Newtown shootings is that gun affectionados are rushing out to buy assault rifles (quaintly called "modern sporting rifles" by Dick's Sporting Goods) and high capacity magazines (30 to 100 bullets), fearing a possible (if not likely) ban on such things in the near future.

It's a legitimate concern considering Obama's voting record while a State Senator in Illinois. The wing of the Democratic Party that Obama represents do in fact want to ban guns. The community he supposedly 'organized' has the nation's most strict gun control and ironically has among the nation's highest murder rate - from guns.
The horrible event in Connecticut is the kind of event that politicians can take advantage of and use to push legislation they've always wanted to pass.
They're not all that concerned about stopping an event like this again, they're more concerned about 'control' and putting their name on a new law and make a name for themselves.

Quoting sudden (Reply 10):
It will last for about a week and then it dies out until the next shooting etc. etc. etc......................

...and sadly mental illness and how we treat it will continue to go under the radar.
Bring back the Concorde
 
smittyone
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:40 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
they're more concerned about 'control' and putting their name on a new law and make a name for themselves.

I think that's a fair description of nearly all legislation these days. The only difference appears to be what they seek to control...
 
ajd1992
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:44 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Sorry mate, no. Not peculiar to the USA, the law's the same pretty well everywhere. Any ban would not apply to weapons that are already owned - it could only apply to future purchases...........

I suppose that, in theory. Obama could try to get Congress to agree to 'retrospective' gun controls - forcing people to surrender their more dangerous weapons.. But he wouldn't succeed - for a start, it would cost too much in compensation. And, if he even tried, he'd probably face a re-run of the American Revolution - with the general public, as in 1775, at least as well armed as the local army......  

They could make it a retrospective law so that it did apply, and give the public 3 months to hand in their weapons for a token amount up to so many guns. After that, treat it as a drugs situation - gather intel, raid houses who they believe still has weapons.

That, or just get a list of everybody who owns a gun (because they need a licence) and then pay them a visit and ask them "Do you mind awfully if we take your M16 off you, please?"

Guns are far too easily gotten in the USA. The whole "We need them for protection" wouldn't matter if they weren't so freely available in the first place. You're only protecting yourself from other gun owners.

[Edited 2012-12-20 06:45:52]
 
Superfly
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:04 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
I suppose that, in theory. Obama could try to get Congress to agree to 'retrospective' gun controls - forcing people to surrender their more dangerous weapons..

It's been done before with taxes so of course it can be done with guns.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
You're only protecting yourself from other gun owners.

Not true at all.
In fact, a neighbor of mine back in San Francisco was able to stop two young punks that broke in his house. They had two metal pipes but luckily he had his gun ready and shot both of them in the legs disabling them until the police arrived.
Quite impressive for an 82 year old Korean War vet bound by a wheelchair.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
3 months to hand in their weapons for a token amount up to so many guns. After that, treat it as a drugs situation -

15 years ago in New Paltz, New York, people who turned in their guns got free therapy.  
Those who didn't turn in their guns, got free everything....
Bring back the Concorde
 
smittyone
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
...and sadly mental illness and how we treat it will continue to go under the radar.

Indeed. One crackpot hypothesis that I am harboring in my own twisted mind is that mental illness and the presence of certain kinds of weapons could be related.

In other words, you have your garden variety nutjob. Left to his devices he might cause X amount of harm...but add the allure of military grade hardware and you get the start of the kind of ideation that ends in a "rebel without a clue" shootout.

At the very least I wonder what the mental impact is of continued exposure to the instruments of human death...ie "assault weapons" which I acknowledge is largely a cosmetic distinction, and 'badass' semiautomatic pistols...as compared to say a more pedestrian hunting rifle or a snub nosed .38 six shooter that is good out to about 10 feet.

Do the tools inspire the performance of the job that they were created to do? I think so, sometimes. Ask the guy who just bought a new (fill in the blank). Suddenly he finds all kinds of uses for it. Likewise I wonder if certain weapons foster an unhealthy fascination with revenge and death in the minds of people already at risk.

With all the haggling over magazine capacities and muzzle velocities I don't hear anybody asking this question.
 
sudden
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:16 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):

Fair enough, but I find this to be an evil circle. The debate gets fuled by another prick who shoots himself and who can not stand up for what he did.
So if you ask me ther guns is not the issue itself. But it's an easy way of expressing anger or whatever else is wrong with these people.
When in doubt, flat out!
 
luv2fly
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Another gun thread?
Beating a dead horse here.



Sad but true. It ain't ever going to change. The sooner people realize it and accept the fact then they can move on. The NRA is to powerful an organization to allow any meaningful change or compromise to happen.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
something
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:25 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
It is utterly ridiculous, but people buy things based on highly irrational urges all the time, and this is no different.

They vote this way too.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
Superfly
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:30 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
Indeed. One crackpot hypothesis that I am harboring in my own twisted mind is that mental illness and the presence of certain kinds of weapons could be related.

In other words, you have your garden variety nutjob. Left to his devices he might cause X amount of harm...but add the allure of military grade hardware and you get the start of the kind of ideation that ends in a "rebel without a clue" shootout.

BINGO!
We have a winner! You are spot on and I've been saying the same thing in other discussions.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 15):
With all the haggling over magazine capacities and muzzle velocities I don't hear anybody asking this question.

I have but not at this site but I support what you are saying.
The person at fault in this case is the mother. It's unfortunate that she is no longer alive to answer some questions. It's been documented that she was aware of her son's mental illness and tried to get him put in some sort of institution. Knowing that, why on earth would she have these weapons in her home if she already knows her son is mentally ill?
She brought this upon herself and sadly her community paid a huge price for her neglect. Seems as though the lame-stream media will not assign fault to this lady.
Mentally ill people are already banned from owning guns and anyone with common sense would know not to have these weapons in a house with a crazy person.

[Edited 2012-12-20 07:31:37]
Bring back the Concorde
 
smittyone
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:38 pm

Quoting sudden (Reply 16):
Fair enough, but I find this to be an evil circle. The debate gets fuled by another prick who shoots himself and who can not stand up for what he did.
So if you ask me ther guns is not the issue itself. But it's an easy way of expressing anger or whatever else is wrong with these people.
Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
Sad but true. It ain't ever going to change. The sooner people realize it and accept the fact then they can move on. The NRA is to powerful an organization to allow any meaningful change or compromise to happen.

Seems like our politicians should just put the matter up to a referendum and give the people what they want.

If the prevailing interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is such, let anybody buy and carry whatever guns they want, wherever they want. Go back to the days of the Revolution or the Wild West. Everyone becomes responsible for their own safety and nobody gets to bitch the next time a bunch of people get gunned down.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:43 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
They could make it a retrospective law so that it did apply, and give the public 3 months to hand in their weapons for a token amount up to so many guns. After that, treat it as a drugs situation - gather intel, raid houses who they believe still has weapons.

Not going to happen, as Civil War II would break out, ending in red vs blue states, which wouldn't be too long of a fight.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
Guns are far too easily gotten in the USA. The whole "We need them for protection" wouldn't matter if they weren't so freely available in the first place. You're only protecting yourself from other gun owners.

That's your opinion. Our constitution says otherwise. Thankfully, from the flag you fly, you have no say in the matter.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
slider
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:46 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
It is utterly ridiculous

Have you followed Fast & Furious?

It's still a scandal and one with blood on this adminstration's hands. Moreover, it's not unreasonable to assert that it was a very deliberate attempt by this POTUS to make a move to help further his own gun control power play.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
The NRA is to powerful an organization to allow any meaningful change or compromise to happen.

When it comes to Constitutional rights, there is no meaningful change or compromise needed.
 
NAV20
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:53 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
They could make it a retrospective law so that it did apply, and give the public 3 months to hand in their weapons for a token amount up to so many guns.

Misunderstanding, ajd1992 pal......

I'm not saying thst Congress can't make 'possession of semi-automatic weapons with magazine capacities exceeding ten rounds' illegal. They could do it tomorrow.

All I'm saying is that any such policy would cost the US taxpayer billions - for the simple reason that those millions of gun owners bought those weapons 'in good faith - and are therefore entitled to claim compensation.

As it happens, more than half a century back, on 'National Service,' I qualified as a 'marksman' with the legendary 0.303 Lee-Enfield. My instructors pushed me to try to 'go on from there' using our 'issue' semi-automatic/full-automatic weapon of the time - the Sten Gun. Couldn't get on with that crude little weapon at all; I got the feeling that if i'd been firing that thing at a soccer match, I'd probably have killed half of the enemy, half of our guys, and most of the referees and linesmen as well..............

My endurng feeling is that - whatever the question is - firearms cannot possibly be the answer......

[Edited 2012-12-20 08:16:38]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Superfly
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:54 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 20):
Seems like our politicians should just put the matter up to a referendum and give the people what they want.

Connecticut voters have already passed restrictive gun laws in the past.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 20):
If the prevailing interpretation of the 2nd Amendment is such, let anybody buy and carry whatever guns they want, wherever they want. Go back to the days of the Revolution or the Wild West. Everyone becomes responsible for their own safety and nobody gets to bitch the next time a bunch of people get gunned down.

In the 'Wild West', kids were not being shot at school, kids respected their parents, their were no violent video games and marijuana was still legal.
I wouldn't mind having this guy as our President.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iqktCdX0hs

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
That's your opinion. Our constitution says otherwise. Thankfully, from the flag you fly, you have no say in the matter.

 splat 

[Edited 2012-12-20 07:55:51]
Bring back the Concorde
 
ajd1992
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:55 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Not true at all.
In fact, a neighbor of mine back in San Francisco was able to stop two young punks that broke in his house. They had two metal pipes but luckily he had his gun ready and shot both of them in the legs disabling them until the police arrived.
Quite impressive for an 82 year old Korean War vet bound by a wheelchair.

OK, fair enough, but what about the rest of the world who don't have legalised guns? The fact he had a gun could have ended horribly for your neighbour if they'd wrestled the gun off him and killed him with it.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
Not going to happen, as Civil War II would break out, ending in red vs blue states, which wouldn't be too long of a fight.
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
That's your opinion. Our constitution says otherwise. Thankfully, from the flag you fly, you have no say in the matter.

Indeed, it is my opinion and I'm entitled to it, just as you're entitled to comment on why we DON'T have legalised guns (or at least, legal but VERY restricted).

Personally I think the constitution (well, the part about "thou shalt be able to own a gun to look tough but not know how to aim the thing") is based on a time that is so far removed now it's not relevant any more. It was ratified in 1788, which is just not the same society as we have now - the fact that it's so enshrined in US culture is part of the problem. People end up owning guns (because they can, the Constitution says so!) and never learn how to use the thing, or are so unhinged they end up doing what those kids did in Columbine, Virginia Tech, New Town, or if you want an example of a UK one - Dunblane. There have been 30+ school shootings in the US since Columbine, and nobody has really done anything to make guns more difficult to get hold of. Somebody needs to because the gun culture in the US is just out of control, to a point.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 3:59 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 25):
There have been 30+ school shootings in the US since Columbine, and nobody has really done anything to make guns more difficult to get hold of. Somebody needs to because the gun culture in the US is just out of control, to a point.

So, tell me, how exactly is the AWB going to do anything. The last one went from 1994-2004, and last I checked, 1999 is between 1994 and 2004. So, if the AWB makes things safer, how did Columbine still manage to happen?

The real problem is two-fold. Mental health and lack of training on firearms. It's my belief that there should be some sort of basic firearms class in public education, just so that people understand how a weapon actually works and some very, very basic handling rules.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Superfly
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:08 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 25):
what about the rest of the world who don't have legalised guns?

Here in Thailand, gun laws are very strict and yet it's so easy to buy a gun here. They're sold openly in the markets here and no registration required. Just money is all they want.
Not even sure if there are any gun laws in The Philippines but I saw more guns there than in Texas.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 25):
The fact he had a gun could have ended horribly for your neighbour if they'd wrestled the gun off him and killed him with it.

If the old man didn't have a gun, they could have beat him severely or killed him. Glad he had the chance to defend himself and he did.
The two punks were looking to break in a house where no one was home. They had knocked on my door pretending to be selling magazines to 'help the inner city kids'. Mind you it's 8:30PM and already dark since this was in November. They had knocked on my door and I wasn't expecting anyone so I didn't open the door, I just simply asked who was it. Just by the tone of their voice, I knew they were bullsh!t but I politely told them that I wasn't interested and they told to "f--k you" and they ran off. I had called the police. They arrived within 10 minutes. As I was explaining what happen to the two cops, they get a call about a break in around the corner. Come to find out, they were trying to find a house where no one was home. The old man in the wheelchair in his basement couldn't go up to answer the door but heard them break a window upstairs and managed to get inside his house. He got his pistol and when they entered the room where he was, he shot them both in the knee caps. He didn't kill them, just injured them badly enough to keep them immobile until the police arrived.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Mir
Posts: 19108
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:27 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
The NRA is to powerful an organization to allow any meaningful change or compromise to happen.

Not this time. The NRA will either come along with sensible measures to reduce the number of guns in the hands of those who would do harm with them, or they will doom themselves to irrelevance. Because it will happen anyway.

Quoting slider (Reply 22):
When it comes to Constitutional rights, there is no meaningful change or compromise needed.

Thousands of dead bodies per year say otherwise.

Quoting slider (Reply 22):
Moreover, it's not unreasonable to assert that it was a very deliberate attempt by this POTUS to make a move to help further his own gun control power play.

If that were really true, it would have been done already. You're just getting into conspiracy theories.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:50 pm

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
Our constitution says otherwise.
Quoting slider (Reply 22):
When it comes to Constitutional rights, there is no meaningful change or compromise needed.

True, until the people decide - via Constitutional means - to amend the document, changing those rights based on the needs of today. Or until the duly appointed members of the Supreme Court decide a case otherwise.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 21):
Not going to happen, as Civil War II would break out, ending in red vs blue states, which wouldn't be too long of a fight.

Tough talk, but if gun rights change in the US via Constitutional amendment or a Supreme Court decision interpreting the Constitution, the military would be bound by oath to support and defend it. Good luck with your Bushmaster against an M-1A2 or A-10  
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 26):
So, tell me, how exactly is the AWB going to do anything. The last one went from 1994-2004, and last I checked, 1999 is between 1994 and 2004. So, if the AWB makes things safer, how did Columbine still manage to happen?

Per my other post, it may change the way people (especially those with personality deficiencies to begin with) look at weapons...as tools for hunting or self protection vice porn-like objects upon which to focus their paranoia or insecurity-driven obsessions.

Deny it all you like, but we ALL went to school with a few oddball kids who blatantly latched onto exotic weaponry for empowerment or as an outlet for the frustrations caused by their lack of acceptance/approval by the popular kids. These are the ones who are lashing out with assault weapons now. One Columbine doesn't invalidate the potential long-term benefit of ridding society of weapons designed specifically for killing large numbers of people. Even if the difference between AW and some hunting pieces is mainly cosmetic.It's about changing a culture that is obsessed with death and violence.

The better question might be, why would a citizen need an AW? In order to protect themself against intruders? In order to guard against 'government tyranny'? If citizens need AWs, why not belt-fed machine guns? If they need machine guns, why not anti-tank rockets (RPGs)? If they need RPGs, why not 155MM Howitzers? If you need a 155MM, why not nuclear weapons? You can quickly see that the rationale for allowing private citizens to own military-style weapons is open ended at the top. If you can justify something more capable of taking human life in quantity than a simple 5-shot bolt hunting rifle or small-capacity pistol (ie revolver), then there's no logical basis to stop at any subsequent higher level of killing power.That is, if you subscribe to the arguments put forth by people like the NRA...ie 1) Constitution says we're free to have whatever Arms we want without offering a reason and/or 2) we need them to oppose government tyranny, and look what weapons they have!

So, what do you think about private ownership of nuclear weapons?

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 26):
The real problem is two-fold. Mental health and lack of training on firearms. It's my belief that there should be some sort of basic firearms class in public education, just so that people understand how a weapon actually works and some very, very basic handling rules.

Agreed on this. Whatever the 'right' level of gun freedoms is in 2012 it should include these responsibilities.

Quoting slider (Reply 22):
Have you followed Fast & Furious?

It's still a scandal and one with blood on this adminstration's hands. Moreover, it's not unreasonable to assert that it was a very deliberate attempt by this POTUS to make a move to help further his own gun control power play.

I can see why it would piss me off, but why would you care? Guns aren't the problem, people are. Right? So AK-47s could literally be lying everywhere on the side of the road, it's up to people to make the right choices.

Pro-gun folks only care about Fast and Furious because it was a misstep by the Obama administration, and he is hostile to gun rights. So anything he does wrong must be exploited even if in the course of doing that their bedrock argument (guns aren't the real problem) is severely compromised.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:51 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 4):
then they'll be illegal once the ban comes in and anybody caught with one would be in violation of a Federal law (from what I gather?)

You start getting federal agents to come to everyone's home looking for guns and you will have 1000's of federal agents dead on the ground. There likely be 1000s of agents who would refuse and order to take the guns from millions of Americans.

There is also no way to know how many legal guns are even out there. I even have guns that have been in my family long enough that there is no paperwork trail on any of them. They were purchased long before background checks, purchase permits, FFL dealer record keeping laws. My bet there are millions of guns that fall into that group around the USA.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 8):
Sorry mate, no. Not peculiar to the USA, the law's the same pretty well everywhere. Any ban would not apply to weapons that are already owned - it could only apply to future purchases...........

That is true. That doesn't just include guns, but also ammunition. I have WWII era armor piercing rounds that would be illegal to purchase new today, but because they were manufactured before they were outlawed they are legal. Don't think because of their age they are unusable. I have shot all kinds of WWII era rounds and they all fired, except for some UK stuff.

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
Do you mind awfully if we take your M16 off you, please?"

An M-16 is already illegal. If anyone wants to take any one of my 39 guns I better get paid. I have $1000s invested in firearms and many have gone up in value since I bought them. I even have additional insurance for my firearm collection.

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 17):
The NRA is to powerful an organization to allow any meaningful change or compromise to happen.

I'm one of the millions of contributors who keep it powerful.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 27):
Here in Thailand, gun laws are very strict and yet it's so easy to buy a gun here

What about the Philippines? I know there are a lot of guns there. I remember back in 1992 a teenager from Manila and another from New Zealand were visiting our house in St. Louis, Missouri. We were riding into the city when some punk kid tossed a brick at my dad's car. The kid from New Zealand was freaked out and the kid from Manila said "if that was at home it would have been a grenade". I'll never forget that.

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
Thousands of dead bodies per year say otherwise.

Most of them are only killed by guns, but the reason for the shooting is the "victimless" crime of drugs. A vast majority of the shootings in Detroit and most other American cities involve the drug trade in some way.
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L-188
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 4:54 pm

I am so glad I ordered magazines for my AR build on Mondya, because on Tuesday the place I ordered them from had sold out. I will give a couple to my brother as birthday presents but I will keep the rest.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:03 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 30):
Most of them are only killed by guns, but the reason for the shooting is the "victimless" crime of drugs. A vast majority of the shootings in Detroit and most other American cities involve the drug trade in some way.

They're still dead. I don't see how why they're dead should make much a difference.

-Mir
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:06 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 30):
There is also no way to know how many legal guns are even out there. I even have guns that have been in my family long enough that there is no paperwork trail on any of them. They were purchased long before background checks, purchase permits, FFL dealer record keeping laws. My bet there are millions of guns that fall into that group around the USA.

When government fears it's people, it's liberty. When people fear government, it's tyranny.






Quoting falstaff (Reply 30):
I have shot all kinds of WWII era rounds and they all fired, except for some UK stuff.

LOL!   
That explains a lot of things.....

Quoting falstaff (Reply 30):
An M-16 is already illegal.

That is a fine machine and very easy to use.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 30):
What about the Philippines?

I can ask some friends from there.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 30):
I remember back in 1992 a teenager from Manila and another from New Zealand were visiting our house in St. Louis, Missouri.

Did they spray paint the side of your car like they did to the Griswalds? 
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seb146
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:12 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
just get a list of everybody who owns a gun (because they need a licence) and then pay them a visit

Even keeping guns licensed gets the gun nuts in an uproar. They are okay with getting carded for just buying one tiny box of Sudafed or driving or buying beer but don't dare talk about government involvment with guns!

Sure there are factions of the Democratic party who want a complete and total ban on guns. But, they are a tiny, tiny minority. Mark my words: there will never ever be a complete and total ban on guns in the United States. Ever. I do not and will not ever own a gun, but I understand the practical uses for guns: food. What I don't understand are people who buy multiple semi-automatic and automatic weapons. Why? One should be enough, especially with as many rounds as those things hold.
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:15 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
That is a fine machine and very easy to use.

Pain in the ass to clean though, IMO.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
When government fears it's people, it's liberty. When people fear government, it's tyranny.

LOL, well played.

But I'm thinking that if it took the USSR, UK, and USA five years to crush the Wermacht there's no way a bunch of amateurs with Mauser K98s would have prevented the Holocaust. Unless they assassinated Hitler, which would have been the right work for a hunting rifle anyway.

Specific to your quote, the problem today is not that the government doesn't fear the people, nor that people fear the government. The PEOPLE fear the PEOPLE, and are looking to their government for help.

[Edited 2012-12-20 09:24:32]
 
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:25 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
They are okay with getting carded for just buying one tiny box of Sudafed or driving or buying beer but don't dare talk about government involvment with guns!

I don't agree with carding people for those products either.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
Sure there are factions of the Democratic party who want a complete and total ban on guns. But, they are a tiny, tiny minority.

That tiny minority is in the White House. Just look beyond his nice smile and look at his voting record as a State Senator (the times he didn't vote 'present')
I'd say their concerns are warranted.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
But I'm thinking that if it took the USSR, UK, and USA four years to crush the Wermacht there's no way a bunch of amateurs with Mauser K98s would have prevented the Holocaust.

I doubt Russia and all fmr USSR nations and the UK would get involved to help Obama dis-arm the American people.
Not sure if I'd call these gun owners "amateurs" considering many have military training and already work in law enforcement. Do you really think a Wyoming State Trooper or any other law enforcement would take orders from Obama and shoot his neighbor for possession of a firearm?
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:31 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
But I'm thinking that if it took the USSR, UK, and USA five years to crush the Wermacht there's no way a bunch of amateurs with Mauser K98s would have prevented the Holocaust. Unless they assassinated Hitler, which would have been the right work for a hunting rifle anyway.

How long has the US been in Afghanistan? How long were the Soviets there? The idea isn't to fight a full on war. Its hit and run guerrilla war. One day, you fight, the next, you blend in.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
cptkrell
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:34 pm

Not far from here is a great "gun store" called the Outpost Armory located on the Barrett Firearms property where Ronnie manufactures some of the most impressive military weapons available. The parking lot has been jam-packed from before opening to closing hours for days. regards...jack
all best; jack
 
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:47 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 38):
Hey, on a slightly ubrelated topic, does anybody know the lead times for bushmaster at he moment? I need to call them and confirm my barrel and bolt for the AR I want to build was recieced

No idea. But judging by the amount (or lack thereof) parts in stores these days, I wouldn't want to be building one. AK's seem a little easier to get now, when compared to an AR.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:48 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
They're still dead. I don't see how why they're dead should make much a difference.

It does. The cause of violence is the reason why people get killed. Guns don't kill anyone alone, it takes a person to operate it. I own 39 guns and I have no desire or reason to murder anyone. I know dozens of other gun collectors who have no desire to use guns against people.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
When government fears it's people, it's liberty. When people fear government, it's tyranny.

I once saw a t-shirt that had Stalin and Hitler on it and read "the experts agree; gun control works".

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
no way a bunch of amateurs with Mauser K98s would have prevented the Holocaust

The French resistance? The Partisans of the Soviet Union? These people weren't professional soldiers, but sure raised a lot of hell and helped the allies defeat the axis. Look at what happened to the USSR and to the Americans in Afghanistan. The US and Soviet armies were much better equipped and trained, but the unprofessional Afghans sure gave both the run around. The Continental Army that beat the British in the American Revolution was made up mostly of non professional soldiers and they whipped the professional British army.

The Philippine gorilla forces, which were made up of amateurs and professionals, who weren't all that well equipped pushed the Japanese from much of the islands before the US invaded.


Keep in mind what might have happened if the Jews were armed. How many do think would have gone down fighting? I Sure they might not have beat the German Army, but they would have put up a fight. I bet a lot of them would have rather died in a gun fight than being gassed to death. Look what happened in Prague.





Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 35):
The PEOPLE fear the PEOPLE, and are looking to their government for help.

Not everyone.... Millions fear the government. The government gives you freedom and the government can take it away. You may have a god given right to freedom, but an oppresive government can take it away.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
automatic weapons

Buying legal automatics are VERY expensive and VERY VERY few people have them.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
multiple semi-automatic
Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
One should be enough

No it isn't... Depends on what you want to do. I have firearms from all the major combatants from WWII (except France, not yet anyway) and there are multiple semi automatics that make up that collection.

I also have semi autos that aren't historicaly important, but are just fun to shoot. My AKM-47 is fun to shoot, but is expensive to operate. My 50 shot 22 rifle is just as fun, but costs way less to shoot.
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 5:55 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 41):
Keep in mind what might have happened if the Jews were armed.

  

Also worth mentioning, slavery in the US was able to last as long as it did because slaves were NOT allowed to own guns.
My elderly relatives can remember Ku Klutz Klan rides in the night when they were very young in Mississippi in the 1920s. Guns were their only defense because those southern sheriffs were not going to come to help blacks being terrorized by the Klan.

[Edited 2012-12-20 10:03:08]
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smittyone
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:07 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 36):
I doubt Russia and all fmr USSR nations and the UK would get involved to help Obama dis-arm the American people.

You lost me there 'Fly. My point is that it took all those countries to take down the Wermacht. I doubted some armed German civilians could have taken them down.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 36):
Not sure if I'd call these gun owners "amateurs" considering many have military training and already work in law enforcement. Do you really think a Wyoming State Trooper or any other law enforcement would take orders from Obama and shoot his neighbor for possession of a firearm?

No, of course not. I really was just talking about how I disagree with the analogy being made by the picture...that somehow small arms in the hands of the German Jewish population (amateurs) would have stopped the Holocaust. Another thing worth mentioning is that I personally would not advocate for some sort of door to door roundup anyway...because I believe in the FOURTH Amendment too  
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 37):
How long has the US been in Afghanistan? How long were the Soviets there? The idea isn't to fight a full on war. Its hit and run guerrilla war. One day, you fight, the next, you blend in.

So you want people to be allowed to buy assault weapons so that they can fight a protracted guerilla war against their own government should that become necessary? What actions by the government would warrant starting a guerilla war? I've read some pretty kooky websites and the only issue that results in people even talking that way (or acting in the case of Waco or Ruby Ridge) is in fact the government trying to "take the guns"! So...you need guns in order to be ready to fight the government if they try to take your guns. Guns that you'll need in order to fight the government if they try to take your guns...talk about a self-licking ice cream cone!

Assuming there's some scenario under which starting a guerilla war makes sense, read my other post...do you want M-240s, anti-tank rockets, Stinger missles etc. to be legal too? That's what the Afghans have. Why stop at semiauto AR-15s or whatever, what's the magic there? Guerilla war or not, police/former military or not, an AR-15 isn't getting you shit unless the armed forces themselves turn against the Federal Government. And frankly, NONVIOLENT resistance is more likely to achieve that end than killing soldiers.

But what an AR-15 does provide is a hard-on if you're the kind of kook who is liable to shoot up movie theaters or schools in some kind of blaze of glory.
 
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:14 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 43):
I really was just talking about how I disagree with the analogy being made by the picture...that somehow small arms in the hands of the German Jewish population (amateurs) would have stopped the Holocaust.

Ok, now I get what you're saying.

Speaking of that time in history, look who just made Time magazine Person Of The Year.....
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:17 pm

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
They could make it a retrospective law so that it did apply, and give the public 3 months to hand in their weapons for a token amount up to so many guns. After that, treat it as a drugs situation - gather intel, raid houses who they believe still has weapons.
Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 13):
That, or just get a list of everybody who owns a gun (because they need a licence) and then pay them a visit and ask them "Do you mind awfully if we take your M16 off you, please?"

Wasn't this part of the plot line to the movie Red Dawn?

Quoting ajd1992 (Reply 25):
(well, the part about "thou shalt be able to own a gun to look tough but not know how to aim the thing")

if you are going to quote the Constitution, at least quote it accurately. Otherwise it weakens any point you are trying to make because other users might perceive that you are mocking the U.S. Constitution, and focus on that aspect of your post instead of on the substance.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
slavery in the US was able to last as long as it did because slaves were NOT allowed to own guns.

What people forget is that in the 60s, the Black Panthers were one of the groups pushing for greater access to guns.
 
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:23 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 45):
What people forget is that in the 60s, the Black Panthers were one of the groups pushing for greater access to guns.

That is very true.
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:31 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
Also worth mentioning, slavery in the US was able to last as long as it did because slaves were NOT allowed to own guns.
My elderly relatives can remember Ku Klutz Klan rides in the night when they were very young in Mississippi in the 1920s. Guns were their only defense because those southern sheriffs were not going to come to help blacks being terrorized by the Klan.

Fair enough...I'm thinking your average .30-06 hunting rifle (or my personal favorite Winchester .30-30) gets you the same protection without the bizarro kook factor baggage and 30 round magazine that is so useful for a rampage.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 43):
Speaking of that time in history, look who just made Time magazine Person Of The Year.....

Was there any doubt who it would be? It was either him or something stupid like "The Terrorist"...
 
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:37 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 46):
Fair enough...I'm thinking your average .30-06 hunting rifle (or my personal favorite Winchester .30-30) gets you the same protection without the bizarro kook factor baggage and 30 round magazine that is so useful for a rampage.

Have you ever considered that people use these high capacity magazines for sport?

-DiamondFlyer
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:44 pm

Quoting sudden (Reply 10):
It will last for about a week and then it dies out until the next shooting etc. etc. etc......................

Normally, I'd feel the same way, but this time seems different.

Personally I see some amplifying factors:
> The string of relatively recent preceding massacres both here and in Norway
> The fact that children were the main target
> The fact that it happened near a major media center

Regarding the last point, to me one unspoken truth to me was that many of the previous shootings happened in places like Columbine, Aurora, etc and to many NY media types that's all "the wild west". This one is very close to home, in a kind of place a media type could picture themselves living if they aren't already.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 19):
It's been documented that she was aware of her son's mental illness and tried to get him put in some sort of institution. Knowing that, why on earth would she have these weapons in her home if she already knows her son is mentally ill?

Totally agree.

Note that many jurisdictions have sensibly strict rules about how guns are to be stored.

Quoting slider (Reply 22):
Moreover, it's not unreasonable to assert that it was a very deliberate attempt by this POTUS to make a move to help further his own gun control power play.

Riight.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 26):
The real problem is two-fold. Mental health and lack of training on firearms.

And the abundant supply of guns.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 29):
Good luck with your Bushmaster against an M-1A2 or A-10

Seems the insurrectionists don't have an answer for that one.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 29):
Deny it all you like, but we ALL went to school with a few oddball kids who blatantly latched onto exotic weaponry for empowerment or as an outlet for the frustrations caused by their lack of acceptance/approval by the popular kids. These are the ones who are lashing out with assault weapons now.

Not sure what point you are trying to make. Some less popular kids find themselves once they get into a different environment. Some very popular kids find out that high school was the peak of their popularity and get bitter if not disturbed and end up committing crimes to try to get attention. My high school class had just such a kid.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 30):
You start getting federal agents to come to everyone's home looking for guns and you will have 1000's of federal agents dead on the ground.

What an absurd statement. Law enforcement already has procedures that are well known, ones that I'm sure you are aware of. No one is saying that federal agents will be coming to your home looking for guns.

I think gun supporters throw up such absurd strawman statements so they can then use them as justification for having ridiculous amounts of firepower.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 30):
An M-16 is already illegal. If anyone wants to take any one of my 39 guns I better get paid.

I hope there is a national gun buy-back program.

It already happens on a local basis:

Here's a program that just happened to be on Saturday:

Quote:

In exchange for $200 in cash, Oakland officers collected 300 guns, while San Francisco police collected 290 guns during Saturday's holiday gun buyback program, Watson, an Oakland police spokeswoman said Sunday.

The buyback, announced earlier this month, was the largest exchange of cash for guns that the city of Oakland had ever held, Watson said.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/police-collect...ndreds-guns-buyback-155534229.html

Quoting Superfly (Reply 33):
When government fears it's people, it's liberty. When people fear government, it's tyranny.

Spoken like a true insurrectionist.

While gun nuts live out their insurrectionist fantasies/paranoias that they insist they are entitled to, the bodies are piling up, and the rest of us are getting sick of it.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
Even keeping guns licensed gets the gun nuts in an uproar. They are okay with getting carded for just buying one tiny box of Sudafed or driving or buying beer but don't dare talk about government involvment with guns!

Actually a large majority of gun owners are in favor of screening all gun purchasers.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 34):
Sure there are factions of the Democratic party who want a complete and total ban on guns. But, they are a tiny, tiny minority. Mark my words: there will never ever be a complete and total ban on guns in the United States. Ever. I do not and will not ever own a gun, but I understand the practical uses for guns: food.

And other jurisdictions have found ways to support the legitimate and sensible ownership of guns such things as hunting, marksmanship and self-protection without having the murder rates we in the US have.
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Mir
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 40):
The cause of violence is the reason why people get killed.

The reason why people get killed is because they were shot.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 40):
Guns don't kill anyone alone, it takes a person to operate it.

It takes a person with a gun. You can't argue that there isn't a lower probability of someone killing their target if they had to make do with a knife instead of using a gun.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 40):
I own 39 guns and I have no desire or reason to murder anyone.

Register your guns and keep and use them responsibly and I don't care how many of them you have.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 47):
Have you ever considered that people use these high capacity magazines for sport?

People use a lot of things for fun that are regulated - I'm not sure why high capacity magazines are automatically different.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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falstaff
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RE: Gun Hoarders

Thu Dec 20, 2012 6:59 pm

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 46):
Was there any doubt who it would be?

not at all. Time is has become a "Obama Love" publication so why not give him the honor. Newsweek lost all objectivity during the '08 campaign and I canceled my subscription because it lacked substance. Look what happened to Newsweek; Time won't be far behind.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 47):
Have you ever considered that people use these high capacity magazines for sport?

I do. Lots of people like to shoot high capacity mags because they can. I don't like the magazines over 30 rounds because they get too heavy to be fun. I do have a 50 round mag for a 22, but those don't weigh much.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 42):
NONVIOLENT resistance is more likely to achieve that end than killing soldiers.

Non violence doesn't always work. A lot more governments have fallen due to armed conflict than to peaceful demonstrations. Even when the USSR fell it wasn't all peace and love; I recall some violence, including a government office building being fired on by artillery.
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