luv2fly
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Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:23 pm

What is wrong with people.

http://news.yahoo.com/firefighters-s...50346447--abc-news-topstories.html

I can not even begin to understand why someone would do something like this.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:47 pm

1987, during the riots in West Berlin, rioters attacked several fire engines, which were on the way to extinguish a building set on fire by looters. The firefighters had to run for their lives and barricaded themselves into their firestation. The people living in the burning house (an old 5 story apartment block with a liquor store on ground floor) had to fight the fire themselves. The fire engines were torched by the rioters.

Jan
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pvjin
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:19 pm

There are loads of messed up people in pretty much every country, and when you mix them with easy access to guns, high social inequality and in some cases lack of healthcare end result is this. Seems like almost everyday stuff in the US I'm afraid.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:38 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):

There are loads of messed up people in pretty much every country, and when you mix them with easy access to guns, high social inequality and in some cases lack of healthcare end result is this.

Oh God, you are being ridiculous. MD11 just posted an example of this sort of thing in a country with restricted access to guns, largely socialized medicine and much less social inequality. We also see the same sort of deadly attacks on police in Greece, Egypt and dozens of other countries. I think I could put in a more rational argument that this is caused by an education and social system that teaches people that they are owed something, and are justified in lashing out if they don't get it.
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falstaff
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 5:52 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
high social inequality

Judging by the location of the fire and the fact it appears to be on a lake I high doubt social inequity had anything to do with it.

It wouldn't suprise me if the dude wanted to kill himself and was pissed that the fireman showed up. He also might have had some sort of beef with the fire department.

Look at what happened in Indianapolis a few weeks back. Some people blew up their house ( a rather nice looking one too) for insurance money and ended up killing people un the process.

Of course in Detroit fireman have been murdered too (felony murder), but since it didn't happen with a gun the national media ingored it.

http://www.detroitnews.com/article/20121103/METRO01/211030374

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1):
1987, during the riots in West Berlin, rioters attacked several fire engines, which were on the way to extinguish a building set on fire by looters. The firefighters had to run for their lives and barricaded themselves into their firestation.

That made international news.

Let's not forget about this incident in the UK.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...eatened-with-a-gun-by-rioters.html

But wait; I don't see how this could happen in the UK; guns aren't allowed.... Oh yeah criminals aren't law abiding.   
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Stealthz
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:02 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
MD11 just posted an example of this sort of thing in a country with restricted access to guns, largely socialized medicine and much less social inequality.

My recollection (from reading years after the event) of the '87 Berlin riots was that in the midst of a full blown riot Police and Firefighters were attacked with stones and bottles etc.
Somewhat different than first responders coming under seemingly heavy gunfire attending a neigbourhood house fire.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 3):
I think I could put in a more rational argument that this is caused by an education and social system that teaches people that they are owed something, and are justified in lashing out if they don't get it.

This part I totally agree with!!
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cmf
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:15 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 4):
But wait; I don't see how this could happen in the UK; guns aren't allowed.... Oh yeah criminals aren't law abiding.

Why are you pro-gunners constantly lying? I don't know what else to call it when you have been corrected several times.

1) Guns are allowed in UK. It is very restricted but are allowed.

2) No-one expects a gun ban to reduce murders to 0. The idea is to reduce the number, something UK has been very successful at.


But if you set the bar at 0 then remember it must be the same if guns are allowed. Something that is failing miserably. There are murders in Kennesaw even with it's requirement for every household to be armed.
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Flighty
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:22 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
when you mix them with easy access to guns, high social inequality and in some cases lack of healthcare

Most psychopaths here are rather successful and have easy access to cash and healthcare, but thanks for playing. The young shooter in Connecticut was from a millionaire banker family. The Unabomber and Joker Killer were both intellectuals arguably at the top of society.

Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold were both from stable, middle class families. Klebold, Harris, the Joker Killer, Lanza and the Unabomber all had significant interactions with, and access to, psychiatrists.

There is a pattern here; just not the pattern people might have assumed.

Cho, the Virginia Tech killer, had many encounters with psychiatrists but was not involuntarily committed to a facility, which he apparently should have been. Reading more about him (which is depressing), he was angry at "rich kids" and lots of other things.

These monsters should not have access to guns. If psychiatrists would flag them early, preventing gun buys, that would help.

[Edited 2012-12-24 10:36:56]
 
L-188
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:26 pm

Not good,

This guy is a stone cold killer plain and simple.
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falstaff
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:34 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 6):
Why are you pro-gunners constantly lying? I don't know what else to call it when you have been corrected several times.

Was the gun used in this story legally owned?

How many gun related crimes are there in the UK committed by those that have legal guns? I am not talking about people being charged with a crime who defend themselves and their property.


If you think I am lying you need to examine the lies anti gunners tell so they can get their point across, but then again they are only lies when it doesn't fly with your political convictions.

The NRA had a great piece about the rise in knife crime in the UK back in 2007 and I chalked it up to hype to they could get their point across that guns bans don't work. When I took my first trip to the UK in 2008 I read about many knife crimes in the newspaper, including a story about the huge number of teens who carry knives in UK schools. I was amazed to see that the NRA was right on the money about what it said about knives in the UK. I have spent time in Yorkshire several times since 2008 and I read about knife crime about as much as read about gun crime in Detroit.
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cmf
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:54 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
Was the gun used in this story legally owned?

Don't know. Doesn't matter. No-one suggesting gun restrictions suggest it will end all crime.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
If you think I am lying you need to examine the lies anti gunners tell so they can get their point across, but then again they are only lies when it doesn't fly with your political convictions.

If you see lies call them out. It isn't a free ticket for you to lie.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
The NRA had a great piece about the rise in knife crime in the UK back in 2007

With guns being mostly out of the picture of course knifes become the weapon of choice. So what. I'm still much less likely to be murdered by a knife in UK than I am by a gun in US.

More importantly, knifes do not kill and injure bystanders the way guns do.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 6:55 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
When I took my first trip to the UK in 2008 I read about many knife crimes in the newspaper, including a story about the huge number of teens who carry knives in UK schools.

Actually a few years ago the Scottish medical association wanted to ban pointed knives and knives above a certain length, including kitchen knives. They even quoted some chefs that long and pointed knives are not really needed in kitchen work. In Limerick, Ireland, a few years ago, the favourite gangland weapon was a box cutter with two blades inserted sife by side, with a matchstick inbetween. This would cause two parallel cuts impossible to stitch back together for a surgeon.
Also, since the handgun ban, Britain has been swamped with illegal guns. Guns have become a status symbol among gangsters, including teenagers, to show how tough they are and that they are not afraid of the cops. Quite a few people got killed by accidentally getting caught in gunfights or drive by shootings.

During the last riots in the UK some ethnic groups (mainly Indians especially ther Sikhs, Pakistanis and Turks) decided to defend their neighbourhoods and set up barricades. The men behind them were armed with tools, like axes or machetes, but also with traditional weapons, like swords and spears. Their neighbourhoods did not get touched by looters, even though looters were seen checking out the neighbourhoods.

Jan
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Kiwirob
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:11 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
How many gun related crimes are there in the UK committed by those that have legal guns? I am not talking about people being charged with a crime who defend themselves and their property.

How much gun related crime happens in the UK, very little in comparison to the US, probably due to the difficulty in purchasing guns and the tight restrictions on what kind of guns people are allowed to own. But I'm talking to a brick wall aren't I?
 
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falstaff
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:40 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
I'm still much less likely to be murdered by a knife in UK than I am by a gun in US.

You aren't likely to be killed at all if you stay out of drug infested gang controlled parts of country.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13):
How much gun related crime happens in the UK, very little in comparison to the US

Cinsidering the UK is smaller than the state of Michigan, by about 2000 square miles, I would say much less. If you take the drug related violence out of Michigan I would bet the gun crime numbers are similar.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
Actually a few years ago the Scottish medical association wanted to ban pointed knives and knives above a certain length, including kitchen knives

That was reported in the US too. That just goes to show that people really want to stop killing and that killing is a problem regardless of how it is accomplished. Murder is already against the law and that doesn't stop people from doing it in a seemingly endless variety of ways.

Quoting cmf (Reply 11):
If you see lies call them out

The biggest one of all.... "kids can buy guns at gun shows" I hear it all the time. You can't even get in a gun show unless you are 18 or with a parent. About half of my guns were purchased at gun shows and I go to them all the time. I never once saw a kid buying a gun, or even allowed to touch one at a gun show.

I also hear about that no background checks are conducted at gun shows. That is BS too; Federal background checks are required by all FFL 01 dealers. Are there dealers who break the law? Sure, but they aren't likely to do it in a public venue with thousands watching.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13):
But I'm talking to a brick wall aren't I?

Yep... I cling to my guns and religion. I just don't fit the stereotype because I'm well educated and I travel. Oddly I became more right wing as I became educated.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 7):
Most psychopaths here are rather successful and have easy access to cash and healthcare

For the most part the high profile shooters come from a background far different than your average drug dealer/street gang criminal.
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L-188
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:51 pm

My AR lower was bought at a gun show and the dealer ran the criminal background check.....he borrowed my cell to do it since he couldn't get bars on his in the building!
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:01 pm

Falstaff,

But I think that you agree that gun ownership requires responsibility. I´m quite sure that your collection has been locked away safely and that you wouldn´t want to leave guns and ammo around where children can get at them. I´m also sure that you agree that minimum safety training standards should be adhered to. And that persons with mental issues should not get access to guns (coming back to the issue of storing guns safely).

Jan
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Emirates773ER
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:07 pm

I wonder why stuff like this doesn't happen in Canada? Oh yea! Cause they don't have guns!
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Maverick623
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:18 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 17):
I wonder why stuff like this doesn't happen in Canada? Oh yea! Cause they don't have guns!

Canada most certainly has guns available. Remember, most of the country is wilderness.
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Mir
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:36 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
I also hear about that no background checks are conducted at gun shows. That is BS too; Federal background checks are required by all FFL 01 dealers. Are there dealers who break the law? Sure, but they aren't likely to do it in a public venue with thousands watching.

There are private sellers at gun shows too, and they're not required to do background checks.

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falstaff
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 8:53 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 17):
I wonder why stuff like this doesn't happen in Canada? Oh yea! Cause they don't have guns!

It does....

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/guns-notori...till-not-prohibited-234352117.html

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
I´m quite sure that your collection has been locked away safely and that you wouldn´t want to leave guns and ammo around where children can get at them

That depends on your opinion... My house is locked and I have an alarm system that includes motion sensors in the room that I store my guns. Some people would say that isn't good enough and demand that they be stored in massive safes. Considering I have no children and children never come to my house I think that is good enough.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 18):
most of the country is wilderness.

and has a smaller population than California.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
And that persons with mental issues should not get access to guns

I totally agree. I took my concealed pistol class with a man with Cerebral palsy. He worked in a bad neighborhood and was afraid to be a victim because of his disability. He didn't move too fast. He passed the training class without a problem. Some people with cerebral palsy I wouldn't want owning a gun, but in this guy's case I didn't see a problem.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
I´m also sure that you agree that minimum safety training standards should be adhered to

I wouldn't be opposed to safety training. There are a lot of gun owners who are hurt because they don't know how to use them correctly. I learned gun safety as a child, in the Boy Scouts, and if a child can learn it easily than so can adults. Of course that kind of thinking goes with a lot of dangerous things. I am amzed at the number of people who are injured by their lawn mowers and snowblowers, but they can be safely operated by 10 year old if they have the correct training.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
I wouldn't be opposed to safety training. There are a lot of gun owners who are hurt because they don't know how to use them correctly. I learned gun safety as a child, in the Boy Scouts, and if a child can learn it easily than so can adults. Of course that kind of thinking goes with a lot of dangerous things. I am amzed at the number of people who are injured by their lawn mowers and snowblowers, but they can be safely operated by 10 year old if they have the correct training.

When I was about 5 years old my dad had to work in the mountains of northern Spain in a very remote area. One evening, while we were having our supper in the village in, a squad of Spanish soldiers, who were having a training eercise in the region, came in. The sergeant and my father got into a conversation (my father spoke fluent Castillian Spanish and Catalan), with one topic being the sergeant´s sidearm (I think it was a Llama pistol). The sergeant cleared it and handed it to my father. I was also allowed to handle it and I immediately got a stern talking to by both the sergeant and my father when I didn´t point it just at the floor. This was a lection I always remembered: Never point a gun at anything you don´t want to destroy and always treat any gun as loaded.

Jan
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PC12Fan
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:14 pm

Oh boy, I'm starting to think this thread will be locked before it's over with.

Back to the topic of the thread, similar even happened in St. Louis a few years back.

http://voices.yahoo.com/st-louis-fir...er-ambushed-line-duty-1707047.html
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Powerslide
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:25 pm

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 17):
I wonder why stuff like this doesn't happen in Canada? Oh yea! Cause they don't have guns!

Oh we have plenty of guns. Difference is we aren't bent on killing each other. The right to life outweighs the right to enjoy firearms, even when the intent is to use them appropriately. I guess that sucks for gun enthusiasts that their freedoms will probably be impinged by gun control legislation, my heart bleeds for them. But honestly, they enjoy something that generally has one purpose; to take life. Until the constitution is rewritten to the 21st century the US, in my mind, will always be the gun-wacko, crazy country no one will want to live in. 'Merica!
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:34 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 23):
Until the constitution is rewritten to the 21st century the US, in my mind, will always be the gun-wacko, crazy country no one will want to live in. 'Merica!

Wow,

Its rare that we can agree on something, but this is one of those times.

That constitution, rights, bills, and amendments. Just get on and change the damn thing.

The world is sick to the back teeth of waking up to yet another US shooting, and witnessing more innocents killed.....

This time it was, Firefighters.

Who next, doctors, nursers, old people who cant fight back ?

Just so a few don't their "rights" impinged. Get real America, you are better than this BS.
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cmf
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:39 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
You aren't likely to be killed at all if you stay out of drug infested gang controlled parts of country.

Tell that to all of you who insist you need to walk around with loaded weapons all the time. But it still stands that you are more likely to get killed here in US than in UK.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
That just goes to show that people really want to stop killing and that killing is a problem regardless of how it is accomplished.

Do you lock your door? It doesn't stop burglars...

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
The biggest one of all.... "kids can buy guns at gun shows"

Can't say I have seen it stated here. That the rules are different on gun shows I've seen but not that kids can by them. On the other hand, straw man purchases are stated as a common way for underage to get weapons.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
I also hear about that no background checks are conducted at gun shows. That is BS too; Federal background checks are required by all FFL 01 dealers. Are there dealers who break the law? Sure, but they aren't likely to do it in a public venue with thousands watching.

As long as they are FFL, absolutely. However, sales isn't made just by dealers. And I have no idea how this gives you the right to flat out lie.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
Considering I have no children and children never come to my house I think that is good enough.

I don't. Someone breaking in should not be able to get your guns that easily. If you do not have them in a safe at least have locks on them.
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mham001
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:49 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 23):
Until the constitution is rewritten to the 21st century the US, in my mind, will always be the gun-wacko, crazy country no one will want to live in.

If only that were the case, but believe it - you won't be missed.
 
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 9:50 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
There are loads of messed up people in pretty much every country, and when you mix them with easy access to guns, high social inequality and in some cases lack of healthcare end result is this.

Stop lying. It's all the gun's fault, remember?

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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:17 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 14):
Cinsidering the UK is smaller than the state of Michigan, by about 2000 square miles, I would say much less. If you take the drug related violence out of Michigan I would bet the gun crime numbers are similar.

Square mileage has nothing to do with it. Average number of gun-related deaths per year in the UK hovers around the 50-60 mark. In the US it's close to 10,000. Even allowing for the five times greater population in the US, the rates are massively different. I wonder why?
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TheCommodore
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:22 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 28):
Average number of gun-related deaths per year in the UK hovers around the 50-60 mark. In the US it's close to 10,000.

Astounding....

Lets hear the pro gun nuts defend those figures with BS arguments about how America is safe      
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mham001
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:33 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 29):
Lets hear the pro gun nuts defend those figures with BS arguments about how America is safe

You fail to understand that nobody here really cares what you think. You don't have to come here, in fact you have repeatedly said you won't come here so this is a non issue for you. Why is this such a problem for you (besides your hysterical anti-Americanism)? You have no skin in this game.
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 10:47 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 30):
You fail to understand that nobody here really cares what you think. You don't have to come here, in fact you have repeatedly said you won't come here so this is a non issue for you. Why is this such a problem for you (besides your hysterical anti-Americanism)? You have no skin in this game.

You see, at the end of the day, that's all you can muster. Personal attacks, Pathetic .

BTW, Have been to the US plenty of times and will continue to go when I please too.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 30):
You have no skin in this game.

Appears that I hit a nerve ?

Now, are you going to "justify" the 10,000 killed per year, or just deflect the argument ?

[Edited 2012-12-24 14:51:08]
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RussianJet
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:31 pm

I had no idea Michigan had a population of sixty million. Great comparison.
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Aaron747
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:34 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 31):
Appears that I hit a nerve ?

It's not even that. One of the things I've noticed about American culture since living abroad is that when I compare to Australians, Kiwis, Canadians, Israelis, Turks, Russians, Chinese, Indians, etc I've had the fortune to work with overseas, most people make ragging on their homeland a regular part of conversation with people from elsewhere. Bitching about where one is from is often an easy way to build repoire with others because it puts everyone on the level. Americans, to some noticeable extent, are not really able to do this. We have a built-in defensiveness that makes it difficult to accept criticism, for one reason or another. I'm not sure why this is so, but it's really interesting - and unfortunate.
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ltbewr
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Mon Dec 24, 2012 11:39 pm

Some info on this deadly attack: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012...randmother-in-1980-police-say?lite

As the link notes, this sick bastard killed his grandmother in 1980, he was convicted of manslaughter and spent almost 18 (but not enough) years in jail, was paroled, and lived with his sister (who is yet to be accounted for) in this house his attack was based at. His mother who also lived in the house died earlier this year. He apparently set fire to the house and a car, put himself at a berm and shot at the first responders as they approached to fight the fire. He killed two and 2 others were seriously injured but will survive. Then he killed himself. The fire set fire to 6 other houses as the firefighters, fearing more attacks, couldn't get close to fight those fires. The neighborhood had to be evacuated, until the area could be secured.

As a convicted felon, any possession or use of guns, and apparently he had several, were absolutely illegal. I suspect he may have stolen the guns or got them illegally. He was 62 years old, he probably had lifelong mental health issues, and like too many mass murders, he wanted to do something to get a lot of media attention as a big FU to the world to blame everyone but himself for his problems. Of course, he unfortunately he got that attention, but at huge costs to 4 or more people, a community in fear and mourning, did his act on Christmas Eve adding further misery.

As noted, his possession of guns was absolutely illegal. Almost any of the proposed laws to restrict access to semi-auto assault weapons, bullet magazines, ban gun show sales, mental health clerances, wouldn't have done a thing. I hope that anyone that sold those guns or didn't secure them properly face serious criminal prosecution under current NY State laws. We should make sure anyone that is convinced of murder faces life imprisonment with no parole, no plea deals. If such a law existed, at least this deadly attack may not have happened. Maybe too, we need to change our attenion to such gun attacks or terror act, to take away part of the motivation for such persons.
 
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:12 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 23):
Until the constitution is rewritten to the 21st century the US, in my mind, will always be the gun-wacko, crazy country no one will want to live in. 'Merica!

There's no need to change or modify the 2nd Amendment. Simply attach some administrative rider to it that says that the only guns you can own are those consistent with the technology circa 1791 when the amendment became law. My understanding is the best gun you could buy in those days was likely a muzzle-loading, single-shot, smooth bore musket that a really good soldier could reload in a minute or so -- and that would hit a target 100 yards away maybe 50% of the time (if you are a good shot).

Make that simple change, and America's gun-death rate would drop from 10,000 a year to maybe 10 a year. Oh - and no need for permits, licenses -- none of that BS. You can have as many muskets as you want. I believe in the sanctity of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights; the guys that wrote it knew what they were doing.
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:14 am

Referring to the post above:

In most cases of massacres (school or workplace shootings) I know the killers had their guns illegally, or, in a case in Germany, the killer had guns he wasn´t supposed to have because both the management of his gun club and the licencing authority were fast asleep and issued him a permit for guns he wasn´t entiteled to. Or in another case the authority did not register that the gun licence of a woman was no longer valid because she did not practice target shooting anymore and by law should have either sold her guns to a licenced person or surrendered them to the police.
Instead she used them years after her licence expired to go on a killing spree.

The laws exist in most bcountries, but are not enforced, like the licenced father of a killer, who, against the law, did not lock his pistol away in a safe, but left it in a wardrobe in his bedroom, together with several magazines of ammunition.

In such cases the persons responsible for not taking care of their weapons or not doing their job as licencing authorities should get punished harshly.

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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:27 am

The answer is obvious - when youre done arming all the teachers, arm the firefighters too  
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:34 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 23):
I guess that sucks for gun enthusiasts that their freedoms will probably be impinged by gun control legislation, my heart bleeds for them.

Such a nonchalant attitude regarding taking some people's rights away... sad

I think us gun owners should be for measures to keep gun ownership safer, but our rights, I don't care if it's someone else's cup or tea or not, are still our rights, and see them blatantly disregarded here...
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 12:59 am

Historically in Europe from the middle ages on weapons and especially firearms were the privilege of the ruling class. They were issued to the great unwashed if they had to fight a war for their king, but were collected soon afterwards again. Even when Napoleon´s troops threatened the rest of Europe, the aristocrat ruling class was very reluctant in ordering general military service because they were afraid that the citizens would not return the weapons anymore and would use them to get rid of their nobility. The one exception in Europe is Switzerland, where from the middle ages on the citizens stood up against foreign rulers.
The US is different. The early years meant that many people lived in frontier conditions, where they did not just have bto hunt for food, but als had to depend on themselves for defence.
The US also got their independence in a bloody war of citizen soldies against a colonial power´s army (though in some aspects it also was a civil war between revolutionries and loyalists).
As a German with a strong sense of a "Wehrhafte Demokratie" (a democracy, which can defend itself), I understand the logic behind being able to keep a government incheck. No country is THAT stable that it´s democracy can survive extreme economic breakdowns. In such a case there nis always the tendency to have a strong man in power.

And e.g. when the Nazis got into power, the first thing they did was to check the gun register for person they considered of dubious loyalty and to disarm them. They did the same when the Germans invaded France.

On the other hand today (during the last 20 years or so) we had more and more massacres carried out by people who should never have gotten access to guns. Both in the US, where access is quite easy as well as in Europe, where guns are much more difficult to get hold of.

The question is how to keep guns away from the undesirables (defined as people with marginal psychological stability or criminals) without interfering too much in the rights of the responsible gun owners or to reduce the capability of a "citizen´s defence of the democracy".

One thing would be a national database of people who are banned from owning guns, let it be convicted criminals or people with mental issues. But, at least in the last case, there are privacy laws against it.

BTW, IIRC Powerslide is a member of the Canadian military. I´ve seen the mentality quite often among European soldiers or police officers that only they should be trusted with guns, but not civilians, who are considered as unreliable. In a crunch I wonder where the loyality of the soldiers or police officers would lie: With the constitution and the democratic principles or with those who pay them.

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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 1:36 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
And I have no idea how this gives you the right to flat out lie.

The gun shows I go to only allow trade with an FFL holder. Sales outside of the show area and not done with an FFL holder are illegal. If you don't believe it you can come and see for yourself.

Here is a reservation form for setting up at a show. Read rule number 6. Not all vendors need an FFL. There are many people at gun shows that don't sell guns. Some of the other items commonly seen at gun shows are; camping/hunting gear, holsters, clothing, books, gun parts, knives, and ammo.

http://www.migunshows.com/resform.html

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
Someone breaking in should not be able to get your guns that easily

Nobody has the right to break in and steal. I should not have to secure my weapons anymore than than reasonably necessary. A locked door and a security system is plenty. There are a lot of dangerous things in a lot of homes; should we have to lock everything up just because of something somebody might do?


Quoting ltbewr (Reply 34):
didn't secure them properly face serious criminal prosecution under current NY State laws

Why? Should I be responsible if my car is stolen from my driveway and then is involved in a traffic accident that kills somebody (that happens from time to time). I guess my car should be locked in my garage and then locked inside instead of sitting in my driveway were somebody could easily take it.

The family of the teen that beat his father to death with a baseball bat in Detroit should probably sue the maker of the bat and the store than sold it if you want to follow that logic.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 38):
Such a nonchalant attitude regarding taking some people's rights away... sad

I really think it is funny that people think its ok remove a constitution right because it gets outdated; when in another 50 years it will be another outdated right and so on until there are none left. Some people will give up everything for total security. A few years back the left was worried about the rights of a few terrorists and telling us how it was unconstitutional and those people deserved the rights granted to them by the Constitution. I also recall many on the left saying that we righties were too worried about security and were going to let the government take our freedoms away. Funny how that has changed.
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:04 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 40):
The gun shows I go to only allow trade with an FFL holder. Sales outside of the show area and not done with an FFL holder are illegal. If you don't believe it you can come and see for yourself.

As you know each state set their own rules.

"Presently, 17 states regulate private firearm sales at gun shows. Seven states require background checks on all gun sales at gun shows (California, Rhode Island, Connecticut, Oregon, New York, Illinois and Colorado). Four states (Hawaii, Maryland, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania) require background checks on all handgun, but not long gun, purchasers at gun shows. Six states require individuals to obtain a permit to purchase handguns that involves a background check (Massachusetts, Michigan, North Carolina, Iowa, Nebraska). Certain counties in Florida require background checks on all private sales of handguns at gun shows. The remaining 33 states do not restrict private, intrastate sales of firearms at gun shows in any manner."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_sho...ates#Gun_show_differences_by_state

Quoting falstaff (Reply 40):
Nobody has the right to break in and steal

Then why do you have an alarm and while you haven't said so I think it is reasonable to assume you have locks. Or why do people feel the need to carry loaded weapons in public for self defense.
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:51 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
I´ve seen the mentality quite often among European soldiers or police officers that only they should be trusted with guns, but not civilians, who are considered as unreliable.

What are you talking about? There is a massive difference between a soldier having a rifle and a civy that uses one for pure recreation. The only ones who should have those assault style rifles and pistons are those in law enforcement. You don't need a 30-round combat rifle for hunting. Guns are designed to kill people, not to hit tin cans in the back of uncle jacks barn. Time to find a different hobby.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 33):
Americans, to some noticeable extent, are not really able to do this. We have a built-in defensiveness that makes it difficult to accept criticism, for one reason or another. I'm not sure why this is so, but it's really interesting - and unfortunate.

That is because from childhood it is engraved in their psyche that America is the greatest country in the world - and I'll shoot you if you disagree. Well America isn't the greatest country in the world anymore and hasn't been for a long time. This type of arrogance has gotten them where they are today, the most hated nation in the world.
 
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:20 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 42):
This type of arrogance has gotten them where they are today, the most hated nation in the world.

If we really are so hated then why do immigrants keep pouring in?

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 42):
That is because from childhood it is engraved in their psyche that America is the greatest country in the world

Everybody should feel their country is the greatest. It is natural, just like people feel their favorite sports team is better than another team. I have some Canadian friends who feel Canada is the best country on earth, I have German friends who feel that Germany is the best country ever and I have a good friend in the UK who thinks England is the best country ever. Being proud of your country and thinking it is the best is not a bad thing; that is why people cheer on their national athletes at international competitions.

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
Then why do you have an alarm

It is a reasonable precaution. Building a giant vault and storing every possible thing that could used to hurt somebody that is in my house isn't reasonable.

If I was a gun store I would have a different opinion. A gun store is a target, because everyone who drives by can see what they sell and will know exactly what is in there and exactly what the hours of business are. When you drive past a home you really don't know what is in there and if anyone is there or not.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 42):
Time to find a different hobby.

I am glad you feel so compelled to tell me what to do.

I guess when the police tell plane and train watchers that they need to find a new hobby because they could be plotting a terrorist attack that it is ok because somebody doesn't like their hobby.

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
Or why do people feel the need to carry loaded weapons in public for self defense.

Because I can and because there are a lot of people that do with no good on their mind.

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
while you haven't said so I think it is reasonable to assume you have locks.

What kind of locks? Locks on my house? yes. Locks on my gun cabinets? yes. Trigger locks on my guns? No. I live alone so nobody is going around my guns that shouldn't be. If someone were to break in and steal them a trigger lock means nothing, they are fairly easy to remove if you try. A kid isn't going to get one off, but with a few tools it isn't that hard. I had a lock fail once, on a very substantial trigger lock and I had it off in less than a half hour.
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:02 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 41):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 39):
I´ve seen the mentality quite often among European soldiers or police officers that only they should be trusted with guns, but not civilians, who are considered as unreliable.

What are you talking about? There is a massive difference between a soldier having a rifle and a civy that uses one for pure recreation. The only ones who should have those assault style rifles and pistons are those in law enforcement. You don't need a 30-round combat rifle for hunting. Guns are designed to kill people, not to hit tin cans in the back of uncle jacks barn. Time to find a different hobby.

Read my short ecert on history. Who´s orders do the soldiers or police officers obey if it comes to a crunch? Hint: in 1930s Germany almost all followed the corporal with the funny moustache.
Who has the guns has the power, as could be seen worldwide wherever some tinpot dictator took over.

I don´t advocate anarchy, but law and order based on the rule of the people. In Switzerland almost every family has a miltary rifle at home. Still rates of gun crime are much lower than in the US.

And BTW, soldiers are supposed to be a part of the population and under civilian command, not the other way around.
They are NOT the elite of the country. This is also why I advocate general military service as opposed to a pure professional military, even if it will lose efficiency. It keeps the military firmly anchored in the population and prevents politicians and generals from attemptimng military adventures.

Jan
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 3:26 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 42):
Everybody should feel their country is the greatest

No, everyone should understand what is great about their country. To claim it is the greatest without understanding what is is great and what isn't is fooling yourself.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 42):
It is a reasonable precaution. Building a giant vault and storing every possible thing that could used to hurt somebody that is in my house isn't reasonable.

Vault isn't the only solution.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 42):
Because I can and because there are a lot of people that do with no good on their mind.

Because you can... and many others can... a lot of people are killed and injured each year.

40,000 people killed and injured per year is far too many to be justified by "because I can".

Quoting falstaff (Reply 42):
What kind of locks? Locks on my house? yes. Locks on my gun cabinets?

Locked gun cabinets. Then i probably agree it is enough. Unless they are easily opened. You want to make sure it takes time to collect all the weapons. Give people time to respond to the alarm. Hopefully make the burglars leave without them.
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 4:13 pm

Well, I have a collection of deactivated WW2 weapons including some submachine guns plus a replica percussion black powder Shaps carbine from the American Civil War (one of the first working breech loaders, but still for paper cartridges and seperate percussion caps). These are legal in Germany without licence if you are older than 18 years (though you need a seperate powder licence to get the black powder). The main reason is that I can´t be bothered at the moment to get through all the red tape to get a licence for live guns. Also, one requirement is joining a gun club (the idea is that the individual gets controlled by his peers and that if he should act funny, the club management will take action, like reporting him to the police), but I´m not a club person. I have a circle of friends, e.g. some of us are in the process of forming a band for playing music, but every official club has to have a formal structure of a council, president, vice president, secretary, cashier etc. and these positions generally attract a certain personality which at work would be called jobworths (or just pain in the @rrse).
Even though it is not required, I keep the guns in a gun safe. The safe cost me about $150 some years ago and even while I don´t have children in my house, nobody can get me into trouble for exceeding the security requirements (I prefer this to having to explain to the police that during a burglary two submachine guns got stolen. It can lead to all kinds of misunderstandings and expensive lawyer bills until the issue gets sorted). Also, the collection has a certain value and I wouldn´t want to have a burglar run away with it.

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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:35 pm

$150?

I assume it isn't fire rated. I was looking at some and the ones I saw where starting out at $1200 up to $2500 dollars.

But thesecrecactual fire rated safes.

Only problem is that I think they would go through the floor of my house!
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:42 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 46):

I assume it isn't fire rated. I was looking at some and the ones I saw where starting out at $1200 up to $2500 dollars.

But thesecrecactual fire rated safes.

Only problem is that I think they would go through the floor of my house!

No, it is not fire rated, but it fullfills the legal requirements for being burglarproof (when it is bolted to a concrete floor / brick wall) for long arms (rifles and shotguns). There is a seperate lockable compartment inside for the ammunition, which again fullfills the law for keeping the guns and the ammunition seperate unless the gun is in direct control by the licenced owner.
Handguns are required to be stored in a stronger, double walled safe, again with the ammunition stored seperately.
The main reason ius that criminals prefer handguns over long guns because they can conceal them more easily.
This is all by German law.

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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:48 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 47):
it fullfills the legal requirements for being burglarproof (when it is bolted to a concrete floor / brick wall) for long arms (rifles and shotguns). There is a seperate lockable compartment inside for the ammunition, which again fullfills the law for keeping the guns and the ammunition seperate unless the gun is in direct control by the licenced owner.
Handguns are required to be stored in a stronger, double walled safe, again with the ammunition stored seperately.
The main reason ius that criminals prefer handguns over long guns because they can conceal them more easily.
This is all by German law.

Good common sense law.
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RE: Firefighters Shot Dead At Upstate NY Fire

Tue Dec 25, 2012 7:31 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):
There are loads of messed up people in pretty much every country, and when you mix them with easy access to guns, high social inequality

Well said. A good argument for gun control.

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 36):
The answer is obvious - when youre done arming all the teachers, arm the firefighters too

Don't forget hospital workers! 3 were shot last week.

Seriously, the US needs to ban guns, all guns. The rule of law is fast being replaced by the rule of the gun in the US.
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