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Aesma
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A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:40 am

I'm surprised no one here is discussing this, maybe the information hasn't reached you yet ?

The war to reclaim northern Mali has started, except instead of the African troops that were supposed to fight it, French troops are doing it, since the various occupying factions were marching on the south without encountering much resistance.

Here is a random link that seems to show a good picture of the situation, but use your usual news source if you prefer : http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2013/01/mali/

I'm going to bed now, feel free to discuss !
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RussianJet
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
The war to reclaim northern Mali has started, except instead of the African troops that were supposed to fight it, French troops are doing it, since the various occupying factions were marching on the south without encountering much resistance.

Apparently the UK is sending a couple of C17s to assist. No troops though.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...anes-to-assist-Mali-operation.html
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seb146
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:49 am

How much oil is in Mali? That would dictate how involved the United States will get involved. The huge humanitarian fiasco there was in Darfur but no one did anything about it outside George Cloony and Matt Damon. Because there is nothing in it for the United States corporations.
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RussianJet
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:43 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 2):
How much oil is in Mali? That would dictate how involved the United States will get involved

How much does Afghanistan have? Some, but not a massive amount - and most of their oil business has gone to China anyway. In any event, various news sources currently indicate that the US is indeed considering providing support to the French operation, and I'd be surprised if that doesn't come to fruition.
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:49 am

I wouldn't really say it's a new War on Terror, but more like a new theater. It's still a war against Al Qaeda-linked militias but this new theater is in a former French colony. It's only natural that France be the main driver here.

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
The war to reclaim northern Mali has started, except instead of the African troops that were supposed to fight it, French troops are doing it, since the various occupying factions were marching on the south without encountering much resistance.

Wonder how this French intervention will turn the tide? Will the separatists/Islamists be defeated? Or will this be France's Vietnam where a stalemate will occur?
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DeltaMD90
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:16 am

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
Without The US

... ... and ??
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pu
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:20 am

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
French troops are doing it,

French troops and French national policy taking the primary and initial stand does great service to both the practical and ideological power France holds in the world. I'm happy to see France aggressively asserting it claim to moral leadership in world affairs.


Pu
 
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:42 am

French led the way in Libya and this was under sarkozy. France seems to be the war bird this decade   
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Superfly
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:52 am

the beleaguered northwest African country whose northern section has been overrun by Islamist guerillas

Oh I'm sure they're just SO misunderstood.  
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
I wouldn't really say it's a new War on Terror, but more like a new theater. It's still a war against Al Qaeda-linked militias but this new theater is in a former French colony. It's only natural that France be the main driver here.


  
Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame.

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US
Quoting seb146 (Reply 2):
How much oil is in Mali? That would dictate how involved the United States will get involved.


...but let's beat up on the US anyway.  
I remember you supported US aggression in Libya 2 years ago which has far more oil than Mali.
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flymia
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:04 am

Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:10 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
Or will this be France's Vietnam where a stalemate will occur?

Er, I think you need to look up on your history there. Vietnam was France's Vietnam before it became the U.S.' Vietnam.

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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:33 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
Wonder how this French intervention will turn the tide? Will the separatists/Islamists be defeated? Or will this be France's Vietnam where a stalemate will occur?

They've done this sort of thing before, in this part of the world too. Not just against Islamists either, in the 1980's Qaddafi was moving into Chad, supporting anti government forces with his troops. Chad has major uranium deposits. The French, with air-strikes and troops helped the Chadian rout the Libyans. In one action, rather like the early SAS missions in the Western Desert in WW2, they drove the Libyans from their base and captured a huge pile of military equipment. It was serious stuff, with Lybian Tupolev bombers being shot down by French air to surface missiles included.

Qaddafi was mightily pissed at being humiliated, so he responded in they only way he knew how. In 1989 a French UTA DC-10 was blown up over Africa by a bomb. You bet the French were in the forefront of the action against him in 2011, maybe that first strike against Gaddafi's' forces besieging Benghazi, before the UK and the US had formally, finally, committed themselves to take action, was not only to prevent a massacre, it was payback too.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
French led the way in Libya and this was under sarkozy. France seems to be the war bird this decade

I refer you to my post above!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame

I also refer you to my post above and ask you consider this; France does not have the vast unlimited military resources the US does, therefore when taking action they have to strategize to fit these resources, they cannot go in like the US did in Iraq for instance. They have to work with the local forces - not disband them - they have to devise a clear exit strategy too. They had their 'Vietnam' (after losing Vietnam in 1954), in Algeria in the late 1950's with even worse domestic consequences than the US suffered. This has informed their military planning ever since.

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):

Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.

As well as the above, I would remind you that France has had significant forces in Afghanistan for periods of time, they've provided with their bases in the Horn Of Africa logistic support for the US since 2001,
They provided significant forces in the 1991 Gulf War, the one that under international law was legitimate.
Also were having to deal with Islamist extremism well before the US (or UK for that matter), did. Including storming an AF A310 hijacked by militants in Dec 1994. After a source they had within that group revealed the true intention of the hi-jack, once refuelled the plane would be flown to Paris and crashed on the city. The bad guys learned from their mistakes then. Did the vast US security and defence bureaucracy even register this event? It seems not.

It might be the often hostile, almost knee-jerk attitude to France from many in the US is a result of being ill informed, reliant on lazy stereotypes.
We British are the historic experts at 'not getting on' with the French! But we've been allies since 1904, the US has since 1776 however!
 
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:58 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
They had their 'Vietnam' (after losing Vietnam in 1954), in Algeria in the late 1950's

They also lost their own country in 1940.
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GDB
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:08 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 12):
They also lost their own country in 1940.

Yes. The reasons why was rooted in what happened on their soil between 1914-18. The horror of the trenches, the scale of the slaughter, not for nothing was the battle of Verdun called 'the meat grinder'.

After that experience they suffered crippling political instability in the following two decades, the military commanders were old, tired, haunted men in 1940, who had staked much of their defence on a huge system of forts, gun emplacements, underground barracks, all to repel any German invasion and to avoid any repetition in the trenches of WW1.
It was a mightily impressive undertaking, this 'Maginot Line'. But it did not extend through Belgium and was outflanked by the Germans surging through a vast wooded area of Belgium, thought to be impassable to tanks.
Still, over 80,000 French soldiers died in 1940, tens of thousands of civilians too.

When you hear of ideas for a perfect defensive systems, of various kinds, an example being the whole 'Star Wars' of the 1980's, or missile defence in various forms, on a strategic level at least, since, it's maybe worth viewing these as potential latter day 'Maginot Lines'.
 
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:43 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
Will the separatists/Islamists be defeated?

They never are, unfortunately. Ideology-based terrorism is like a bad cancer.
It spreads and feed on the violence it generates. The dead become martyrs and push more and more people to join a cause they don't understand. It is no surprise that it happens in places that are poor and with limited education. The best we can hope for is that they will retreat and be weakened enough to not immediately regroup and become violent again.

Temporary remission...

Quoting Doona (Reply 10):
Vietnam was France's Vietnam before it became the U.S.' Vietnam.

We called it Indochina... It was a disaster. Amazingly enough, it seems that 50 years later, our western nations still aren't faring any better in Guerilla-type wars.

And yes, the comments about the US are out of line and completely gratuitous. Whereas France has taken the lead aggressive role on this one due to cultural and political ties with Mali, I am pretty certain the US is or will shortly be involved in this in one way or another.
Our foreign policies seem to have been mostly on the same phase in the last few years.
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RussianJet
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:10 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.

Thanks for insulting our sacrifice,

Signed

Every British soldier, dead and alive.



......for that matter, you might want to look at the spread of nationalities serving in Afghanistan. Please stop propogating the myth that only the US actually contributes any forces to global security.
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
The war to reclaim northern Mali has started

Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?

 

The "rebels" of Mali are members of the same international organizations as the "rebels" of the Free Syria Army (FSA).

 Wow!
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RussianJet
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:37 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?

That's pretty much it at the moment, yes. We'll realise how stupid we were, with all this talk about giving the fighters in Syria arms etc, when in a couple of years we end up with a hardline menace in charge of that country.
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:16 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
I'm surprised no one here is discussing this, maybe the information hasn't reached you yet ?

Yes, I missed these news nearly. Despite being an avid reader on the BBC news site, on Zeit.de and other newspaper websites. Time to read up and make up my mind.

I have to have a talk with colleagues who have worked with nomadic tribes in northern Mali to improve their health. I wonder what they think.

Quoting GDB (Reply 13):
It was a mightily impressive undertaking, this 'Maginot Line'. But it did not extend through Belgium and was outflanked by the Germans surging through a vast wooded area of Belgium, thought to be impassable to tanks.
Still, over 80,000 French soldiers died in 1940, tens of thousands of civilians too.

  

The number of French lives lost in WWII is higher than the number of dead Americans. Still, many countries had to bring a tremendous sacrifice to save us from the Nazis and Japanese Empire. (Switerland has about 400 soldiers dead, most of them drowned in exercises. In the end of 1944, we could have relieved the First French Army in the Alsace campaign, or opened a new front along the Swiss-German border to shorten the war.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_...281940%29#French_counter-offensive is a worthy read, IMHO.


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Aesma
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
I wouldn't really say it's a new War on Terror, but more like a new theater. It's still a war against Al Qaeda-linked militias but this new theater is in a former French colony. It's only natural that France be the main driver here.

It's "natural" yes, however for months politicians and military specialists alike were saying there would be no boots on the ground, only formation and assistance, because our relations with former colonies is a complicated one. It seems the march on the south and a new civilian taken hostage in the region sealed the deal. Having a Malian colleague, when this started he didn't expect or want a French intervention, but now he's glad that it's happening.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 5):
Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
Without The US

... ... and ??

Well that's an interesting twist I would think.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 7):
French led the way in Libya and this was under sarkozy. France seems to be the war bird this decade

I'm fine with that if those wars stay in the same ballpark as the Libyan one. I'm sure it will help our military modernize, I just realized yesterday that despite several development programs our current drone fleet is ridiculously small and only suited for surveillance, that has to change.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 14):
Whereas France has taken the lead aggressive role on this one due to cultural and political ties with Mali, I am pretty certain the US is or will shortly be involved in this in one way or another.

Well no direct way at least since apparently the US legally can't. I would be glad if they could lend us some Reapers.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?

It's more complicated than that, for both countries. There has been a dispute over northern Mali for a long time, and the nomads that claim that territory are not jihadists. However when they made their move the territory became an instant magnet for jihadists that took over. In Syria, the events started with peaceful protests from unarmed civilians, again not jihadists. Now the war is fought on several fronts and we're not saying the jihadists are good nor helping them.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:28 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
I'm fine with that if those wars stay in the same ballpark as the Libyan one. I'm sure it will help our military modernize, I just realized yesterday that despite several development programs our current drone fleet is ridiculously small and only suited for surveillance, that has to change.

I am not OK with any of these interventions. There are hidden motivations behind them.

Quote:
"two foreign companies signed oil and gas exploration deals with the Malian government “that oblige them to invest millions of US dollars in the search of petroleum in the country's vast desert. Both Algeria's national oil company SONATRACH and the Canadian owned Selier Energy say that the vast Taoudeni basin, at Mali's borders with Mauritania and Algeria, shows great potential for major oil and gas discoveries.” (9) In a world hungry for energy resources, who will get control of these reserves? U.S. strategists are fearful of China’s growing influence, adding competition to greed as motives to control the area."

"When they were finally forced out of Africa in 1960, the French left behind desperately poor countries. Today Mali remains the 23rd poorest country on earth, with the 49th lowest life expectancy – barely 53 years. "

"that the U.S. military is already in the country and the presence of known oil reserves under the desert sands of northern Mali."

http://warisacrime.org/content/us-hands-mali

France and USA only true reason for being in Mali...

                 
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Aesma
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:14 pm

So you're fine with "jihadists" taking over Africa then ? Make up your mind.
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Kiwirob
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:26 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):

Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame.

Why would the US get involved, do tell?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
I remember you supported US aggression in Libya 2 years ago which has far more oil than Mali.

It's the other way around it was French and UK aggression supported by the US, the French dropped the most bombs and flew over 35% of the combat missions, there were also British SAS, SBS & SRR troops on the ground co-ordinating the bombing. But of course you will believe what you want and continue your anti Obama crusade.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 21):
So you're fine with "jihadists" taking over Africa then ? Make up your mind.

It seems you did not read my previous post.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):

Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?

The "rebels" of Mali are members of the same international organizations as the "rebels" of the Free Syria Army (FSA).

I smell a rat.

  
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MD11Engineer
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 20):
Quote:
"two foreign companies signed oil and gas exploration deals with the Malian government “that oblige them to invest millions of US dollars in the search of petroleum in the country's vast desert. Both Algeria's national oil company SONATRACH and the Canadian owned Selier Energy say that the vast Taoudeni basin, at Mali's borders with Mauritania and Algeria, shows great potential for major oil and gas discoveries.” (9) In a world hungry for energy resources, who will get control of these reserves? U.S. strategists are fearful of China’s growing influence, adding competition to greed as motives to control the area."

Do you have an idea how expensive it will be to get this oil to the markets? Not just will they have to build up the whole infrastructure, including pipelines through half of the Sahara, they also will have to pay transit fees from the other countries the pipeline to the coast runs through, since Mali is landlocked.
The oil or gas field must be very big to pay for all the expenses and STILL leave a profit.

Jan
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
It might be the often hostile, almost knee-jerk attitude to France from many in the US is a result of being ill informed, reliant on lazy stereotypes.

This country lives on stereotypes. Of course this is not limited to US but it is stronger here than just about any other place I have been.
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PHX787
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:05 pm

Here's the issue with Africa:
No one has any clue what's going on.
With the exceptions of South Africa and some others, most governments are either dictatorial, run by jihadists, or have very little control over the country, which means its run by radicals..
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flymia
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
Including storming an AF A310 hijacked by militants in Dec 1994

That aircraft was a french aircraft and it was in France. Who else was suppose to do it.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
for that matter, you might want to look at the spread of nationalities serving in Afghanistan. Please stop propogating the myth that only the US actually contributes any forces to global security.

I am not dumb. I know other countries have helped the U.S. I said "stepping up" as in a country taking the lead. Making its own decisions. Not even needing or asking the U.S. for help.
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Ken777
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame.

You would find it exceptionally difficult to get the US public to support another intervention. We don't need another 10 year war and the voters would find it hard to agree to another endless intervention.

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
France does not have the vast unlimited military resources the US does,

We don't have an unlimited military resource - especially after the Iraq Folly. Far too many enlisted men and officers were abused with too many deployments & too little time at home to recover, rebuild families and retrain for another deployment. We used backdoor drafts to keep good personnel on active duty long after their EOS. We've seen officers, especially O-4 level officers (Majors) who resigned because of the abuses that were dumped on families with these over deployments.

We have also spent far too much money for wars on the credit card. Nice for private companies like Halliburton, but certainly not in this country's interests.
 
RussianJet
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
I am not dumb. I know other countries have helped the U.S. I said "stepping up" as in a country taking the lead. Making its own decisions. Not even needing or asking the U.S. for help.

Then don't make such silly statements. Last time I checked, we took joint action. We may be smaller than the US but the UK has been there ALL the way.
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flyingturtle
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 26):

I really agree with you here. Africa is still a mystery for many. For too long a time westerners have tried to teach Africa, without ever listening to Africans. We see them as poor, undeveloped, and we forget that there have been cities with 30'000 inhabitants in Tanzania. Back in the 17th century and before.

Many African countries are either landlocked, or they are elongated, meaning that they have a short coastline, but the country extends far into the continent. This was done so by the colonial powers, and such elongated countries serve only one purpose... to carry raw materials from the source to the seaport.

Which meant that railways didn't serve to connect cities, or provide a sustainable network for economic development.


David
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GDB
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 16):
Why are the jihadists in Mali the "bad guys" but the jihadists in Syria are the "good guys"?
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 17):
That's pretty much it at the moment, yes. We'll realise how stupid we were, with all this talk about giving the fighters in Syria arms etc, when in a couple of years we end up with a hardline menace in charge of that country

There will be Jihadists there, there have been elements of them in the other uprisings too. Most are not, most of the rebels have limited military experience, sometimes none at all.
If you have a large uprising in Muslim nations that have been run by a small, corrupt, brutal clique, there will be extreme elements operating, in part created by our safe, comfortable standards, being ruled in a rather extreme way, for many the whole of their lives.

So far however, how have these elements fared? By that I mean Jihadists as in those wanting to replace the oppression they are fighting with an even worse one, this time, theocratic. Who also may well be disposed to export their brand of extremism, either to destabilise the region and/or create terror further away.

We know from what was recovered from a now demolished building in Pakistan, that the once operational leader, or just inspiration for these people, in his final weeks, mourned the fact that his ideas, supporters, were making little or no headway. Mainly because after all the years of his planning, funding, urging the populations of these nations to rise up when they finally did, it had nothing to do with either his organisation or ideas. They were as taken by surprise as much the rulers under threat were.

They've not even been out of the playbook that Al Qeada considered to be the way to do it, which they had applied, with no success, in places like Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Yemen in the past. These failed.
They had used a small cell of terrorists create large scale deaths in the civilian population, who would blame their rulers, rise up, the rulers would ramp up oppression but this would enrage the population towards victory. Headed by the terrorists.
What has happened since 2011, succeeded in Egypt and Morocco, was not sparked by brutally directed Islamist attacks, the uprisings have been mass movements from the start with disparate elements, often with internal tensions and often little direction.

Many of the rebels in these places are fighting and dying for more freedom, not to have a new form of oppression.
They are mostly more Western orientated amongst the younger element than Islamist. But they are Muslim.

Islamists will have been trying to play catch up but that won't be helped by the constant attrition on their command and control networks, they are spending at lot of time literally, keeping their heads down.
These nations, Syria in particular, have complex societies, simple missives like 'they are all Jihadists' really do not begin to understand the situations, much less consider, if anything, what to do.

Quoting flymia (Reply 27):
That aircraft was a french aircraft and it was in France. Who else was suppose to do it.

I would have thought my point was clear? They established that there was, within Islamist groups, a whole new form of hijacking very different from the experience of the previous 25 years or so. This clearly was not registered elsewhere since it happened again, in a far worse form, there was no contingencies matched to this sort of event, it's probably also true to say the prospect of such an attack might not have figured in intelligence analysis. Would it have made any difference in 2001? Who can say? The point is France had experience of the form of Islamist terror that emerged after the Cold War.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 28):
We don't have an unlimited military resource - especially after the Iraq Folly.

I know, it just can look like you do from this side of the pond!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:34 pm

There is much more about this "war on terror" than we are being told.
Western countries would not be going to Mali if the place had no natural resources, oil, gold and other.

The size and scope of the Islam/China Africa take over is staggering, this is a race for not only vast resources that are untapped but some of the best farm land in the world that is not yet developed.

http://www.chinaafricarealstory.com/...a-really-building-100-dams-in.html

     
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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mercure1
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:35 pm

Its unfortunate France must drag up its ugly past colonial face and go play the gendarmerie in Africa.

France could pay a high price for its adventures both in the short run and in the long run both at home and abroad.

Frankly let the local people do what they need to for themselves to decide what type of government or nation they wish.

Bringing the colonial white man back to fix a local dispute is the wrong path. Its sad how taboo of Islam brings Armées françaises out of its garrisons.
 
GDB
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:46 pm

Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
Frankly let the local people do what they need to for themselves to decide what type of government or nation they wish.

Bringing the colonial white man back to fix a local dispute is the wrong path. Its sad how taboo of Islam brings Armées françaises out of its garrisons.

France is leading the effort, however there are major Malian forces involved, as well as an increasing number from other African nations.
The Malians threatened by the almost psychotic nature of these Islamists, those already killed, maimed, no longer allowed to enjoy the simple pleasures of life, including Mali's great musical heritage, are rather less concerned about theorising on post Colonial guilt from the comfort and safety of the West.
Indeed they've been shouting for help.

And the some 6000 French nationals in Mali too.
 
NoUFO
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
Western countries would not be going to Mali if the place had no natural resources, oil, gold and other.
Quoting mercure1 (Reply 33):
Its unfortunate France must drag up its ugly past colonial face and go play the gendarmerie in Africa.


So far, comments from African countries on the French invervention have been very positive and this even includes those from Algeria. Perhaps this indicates that France is doing something right.
I support the right to arm bears
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:31 pm

French military surprised by 'well-trained, well-equipped and well-armed' Mali Islamists
- @BBCNews

"In addition to creating defenses, the fighters are amassing supplies, experts said. A local who was taken by Islamists into a cave in the region of Kidal described an enormous room, where several cars were parked. Along the walls, he counted up to 100 barrels of gasoline."

"Those weapons include the SA-7 and SA-2 surface-to-air missiles, according to Hamaha, which can shoot down aircrafts."

http://news.yahoo.com/ap-impact-al-q...es-own-country-mali-091304997.html

    Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 35):
So far, comments from African countries on the French invervention have been very positive and this even includes those from Algeria. Perhaps this indicates that France is doing something right.

Remember about ten years ago, when AQIM were cutting the throats of the inhabitants of whole villages, which they accused of supporting the government, in Algeria? I think the majority of the people there want a return of the fundamentalists. Also, from what I understand, most people in Northern Mali are Sufi Muslims, a sect which considered as heretic by the Salafists and Wahabis of AQIM.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Stabilator
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:36 pm

Just fine by me! I hope Barry and Co. don't stick their noses into this nonsense like they did Libya.

Other countries are well equipped to combat the world's enemies. I hope the U.S stays on the sidelines of any minor conflict for quite some time.

Vive la France/GB
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:39 pm

Marseille is full of Salafists and Wahabis. Don't need to go to Mali.
I find France is two-sided.

Why go to Mali to fight Salafists and Wahabis when you have them on your own grounds?

 Wow!
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:46 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 39):
Marseille is full of Salafists and Wahabis. Don't need to go to Mali.
I find France is two-sided.

Why go to Mali to fight Salafists and Wahabis when you have them on your own grounds?

Wow!

they can´t make it right for you?

If you don´t see that a power vacuum in a failed stare (which Northern Mali is since the Tuareg rebellion drove the government army out and where there is no new government established yet) creates a perfect bandit country, where militant groups and criminal gangs can set up training camps, retreats and logistical infrastructure, I can´t help you.
What do you think is happening in Somalia or Yemen? Or in the tribal territories of Pakistan?
Once the fundamentalists in Europe lose their backing, they´ll go as well.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
NoUFO
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:55 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 39):
Marseille is full of Salafists and Wahabis.

Say what? And stupid me was thinking Marseille was full of Marseillais.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 39):
Why go to Mali to fight Salafists and Wahabis when you have them on your own grounds?

And on what grounds? Are they going to take over control in France?
I support the right to arm bears
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 9:59 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 41):
Are they going to take over control in France?

I hope not.

Algeria authorises France to use airspace for Mali raids

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...92a73fc2ff2f50a8891280af493a87.271

France's foreign minister says US is providing communications and transport help for international military intervention in Mali - @AP

A spokesman for the French UN Mission says the Security Council will meet Monday at France's request to discuss Mali - @AP

[Edited 2013-01-13 14:03:37]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:34 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 4):
I wouldn't really say it's a new War on Terror, but more like a new theater. It's still a war against Al Qaeda-linked militias but this new theater is in a former French colony. It's only natural that France be the main driver here.


  
Very true but if the French screw this one up, the US will have to come in an clean up and take the blame.

Why? This isn't a NATO sponsored operation and the UNSC hasn't authorized any action on behalf of the UN. Any mess France gets into is their responsibility alone. Besides, with Malian and other African troops, I don't think the US would go as far as place soldiers on the ground unless it's to safeguard its consular staff.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
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Aesma
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 43):
Why? This isn't a NATO sponsored operation and the UNSC hasn't authorized any action on behalf of the UN.

The UN didn't need to authorize anything, Mali called us for help.

mercure1 : I don't like the "Françafrique" either but if it's that or Chinafrique or Alqaidafrique the choice is easy.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
mham001
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:53 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 25):
This country lives on stereotypes. Of course this is not limited to US but it is stronger here than just about any other place I have been.

Isn't that in itself a "stereotype"?
 
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par13del
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Mon Jan 14, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 11):
France does not have the vast unlimited military resources the US does,

Neither does the US, correct me if I'm wrong but they are running trillion dollar debts, billions dollar deficits and massive spending cuts are on the way, especially in the military so.......
Now if we are saying that the US has an oversized military to allow them to do more than protection of their assets in the homeland, we have a differtnt story.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
The number of French lives lost in WWII is higher than the number of dead Americans.

Yes, and the USA after the end of WWI was one of the few voices advsing against the draconian measures inflicted on the Germans which ultimately led to WWII, cause and effect.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 43):
Why? This isn't a NATO sponsored operation and the UNSC hasn't authorized any action on behalf of the UN. Any mess France gets into is their responsibility alone.

Interesting that the UN has not called a General Assembly meeting to discuss the participation of foreign troops, but that is for another thread.
 
NAV20
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Mon Jan 14, 2013 11:41 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
Quoting flymia (Reply 9):
Good. Glad someone else is stepping up for a change.


Thanks for insulting our sacrifice,

Signed

Every British soldier, dead and alive.

Maybe worth mentioning, flymia, that Britain and the Commonwealth were the only people who fought the WW2 Nazis, and later the Japanese, from Day One in 1939 right through to 1945.

And they're 'showing willing' again:-

"Ministry of Defence sources said the C-17 flew from RAF Brize Norton in Oxfordshire on Sunday and was on Sunday night being loaded with military equipment at a French base.

"It was due to take off for Mali later on Monday morning.

"RAF drones and spy planes have also been put on standby, sources told The Times, who also suggested that a small team of British military instructors would be sent to Mali's capital, Bamako, later this month.

"Mark Simmonds, a Foreign Office minister, hinted that British troops would eventually be sent to Mali to train an army capable of holding off al-Qaeda.

“We may well, through a European Union mechanism, provide training and support for the Malian army to give them strength to bring back the integrity of the Malian country in totality,” he said."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rench-effort-against-al-Qaeda.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
CPH-R
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Mon Jan 14, 2013 1:57 pm

The RDAF will be dispatching one of its Hercs to Mali as well.
 
GDB
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RE: A New War On Terror Has Begun, Without The US

Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting CPH-R (Reply 48):
The RDAF will be dispatching one of its Hercs to Mali as well.

The Danes always step up.

Some of the criticism of Hollande seems to me, unfair.
This is a mission with risks, it's likely that French boots on the ground, beyond special forces and similar, will have to fight and in some numbers.
The Mali Army needs a lot of work and the Islamists hold a large chuck of territory.
Every French loss, any military problems, retaliation - perhaps in France itself - will fall on him.
I hold no flag for him, don't even know a huge amount about this President, however he won't have gone, as his critics and if the polls are right a lot of French people, from an indecisive, over cautious, even rather bumbling figure into someone authorising this risky mission overnight.

Easy to carp from the sidelines, consider however the options he faced.
The Islamists were massing, they could have taken the capital, the areas under their rule are under a violent theocratic oppression, Mali was desperately asking for international help and the Malian army was weak with any larger local African intervention would be too little, too late and frankly probably not up to the job.
Several thousand French nationals at risk, Mali has close ties to France.

Left unchecked these Islamists would have spread, threatened others including beyond the region.
The result of letting the Taliban gain a hold in Afghanistan in the 1990's is seared into the minds of most Western leaders of this generation.

One thing Hollande may have done wrong however, is to perhaps raise expectations about the length and scope of the French military involvement.

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