dragon-wings
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NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:59 pm

Governor Andrew Cuomo on Tuesday signed into law a new package of gun regulations intended to fortify New York's existing assault weapons ban, limit the number of bullets in magazines and strengthen rules that keep the mentally ill from owning firearms.

New York's law:
•Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.
•Requires ammunition dealers to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York state for pickup.
•Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons. Those New Yorkers who already own such weapons would be required to register their guns with the state.
•Most controversially, requires any therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat of harming others to report the threat to a mental health director, who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services. A patient's gun could be taken from him or her, as well.
•Stipulates that stolen guns should be reported within 24 hours.
•Tightens the state's description of an "assault" weapon. Previous state law defined an assault weapon as having two "military rifle" features, but the new law reduces that specification to just one feature
•Requires background checks for all gun sales, including by private dealers -- except for sales to members of the seller's immediate family.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...-first-since-newtown-massacre?lite

[Edited 2013-01-15 16:00:51]
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AirframeAS
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):

I don't see how some of this helps keep guns out of the hands of criminals...at all. This does nothing.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.

This makes no sense to me, at all. Whats to stop a criminal who has a 19 round 9mm from killing me when I have a 7 round 9mm? The criminal is going to win while I die. This is not very well thought out.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons. Those New Yorkers who already own such weapons would be required to register their guns with the state.

Good luck with this one. 1) No one is going to register them because of 2) How do we know that the registry is not going to fall into the wrong hands and 3) This paints a target on the backs of gun owners by criminals who want to cause problems.

Fail.

This is a sad day for law abiding NY gun owners. Great intentions, but wrong approach...a knee-jerk reaction. The only question I have here is: "How exactly does this keep guns out of criminals hands and how does this actually gets the criminal to follow the law?"
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 1):
n. The only question I have here is: "How exactly does this keep guns out of criminals hands and how does this actually gets the criminal to follow the law?"

Simple. It doesn't..
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AirframeAS
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:46 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2):
Simple. It doesn't..

Exactly. NY is actually punishing the honest NY gun owner who follows and abides by the laws at the criminal's expense. Kudos.

NY State needs to try this again.
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Mir
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:51 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.

I'm no gun expert, so I have no idea what a normal magazine could hold, but it would seem that there are a lot of them out there that would normally hold more than seven rounds. The number I keep hearing is 10-12, which seems reasonable. Seven seems excessive, but I agree on principle.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Requires ammunition dealers to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York state for pickup.

Not so sure about this one. The pickup requirement I have no problem with at all, nor the background check requirement (though I'd say that a current firearms license should be sufficient - it would save buyers time). But I'm not really sure why the government needs to know how much ammunition was purchased and by who. That's kind of like reporting to the government how much gas you buy.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons. Those New Yorkers who already own such weapons would be required to register their guns with the state.

Should be required for all guns, not just assault weapons.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Most controversially, requires any therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat of harming others to report the threat to a mental health director, who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services. A patient's gun could be taken from him or her, as well.

Fine in principle, but in practice this is going to end up being a liability nightmare for those in the mental health profession. But the mechanism is something we're going to have to figure out if we're going to actually get serious about addressing mental health in combination with guns in this country, so...I guess someone has to be the guinea pig.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Stipulates that stolen guns should be reported within 24 hours.

Agree.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Tightens the state's description of an "assault" weapon. Previous state law defined an assault weapon as having two "military rifle" features, but the new law reduces that specification to just one feature

Semantics, not much there. This whole "assault rifle" thing is an ill-conceived mess of definitions and loopholes. The gun-control people need to realize that the best people to write those laws are the pro-gun people, because they actually know that they're talking about and know what guns are capable of what. But you're not going to get them onboard, so they're not going to help you out. Limiting magazine size is a much simpler solution - that way, someone who wants a gun that looks like an M16 for cosmetic reasons can have one, but they'll be restricted in the amount of damage they can do with it at one time.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
%u2022Requires background checks for all gun sales, including by private dealers -- except for sales to members of the seller's immediate family.

It should include members of the seller's immediate family. The Sandy Hook shooter could have bought his weapons from his mother without any background check under this law. Background checks aren't that difficult to do.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 1):
I don't see how some of this helps keep guns out of the hands of criminals...at all.

Requiring background checks for all sales will make it harder for people who couldn't pass background checks to get guns. But the real problem is gun trafficking from states that have lenient gun laws, and there's nothing that New York can do about that. Only those states or the federal government can step in on that (and they should).

-Mir
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EMBQA
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 12:57 am

Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free
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AirframeAS
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:00 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Requiring background checks for all sales will make it harder for people who couldn't pass background checks to get guns.

That does not keep a criminal from getting his/her gun illegally.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free

   And those criminals are laughing at us.
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Mir
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:02 am

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free

That's the way it is with laws, yes. Unless the criminals are caught, of course. Then they don't walk free.

If we're going to object to laws by reasoning of "well, people who don't obey the law will be able to do things that people who do obey the law can't", what's the point of even having laws? Yet that would lead to anarchy.

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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:08 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Most controversially, requires any therapist who believes a mental health patient made a credible threat of harming others to report the threat to a mental health director, who would then have to report serious threats to the state Department of Criminal Justice Services.


Wow something I agree with. It is like they read my mind. I proposed this is a paper I recently wrote.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state


7 is ridiculous.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
The number I keep hearing is 10-12, which seems reasonable. Seven seems excessive, but I agree on principle.


10-12 is normal. 7 is absolutely ridiculous. Just hope you don't miss if a mad man comes into your home in NY.
So can a person just carry 2 magazines I guess?

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free


Agreed

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
That's the way it is with laws, yes. Unless the criminals are caught, of course. Then they don't walk free.

If we're going to object to laws by reasoning of "well, people who don't obey the law will be able to do things that people who do obey the law can't", what's the point of even having laws? Yet that would lead to anarchy.


Except this law is limiting a tool good people can use to defend themselves. Criminals don't care and you make a point when they get caught then its good. At the same time this is a tool a person can use to defend themselves against the criminal.
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:12 am

Sucks for NY gun owners, though I'd rather the states go about their own bans than something federal. Don't plan on ever living up in NY... these new measures seem pretty excessive though some I agree with
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dragon-wings
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:13 am

With regards to the new 7 rounds law. Lets say someone has a gun that holds 12 rounds, but only loads 7 rounds into the clip. Would that be legal under the new?
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:17 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 1):
I don't see how some of this helps keep guns out of the hands of criminals...at all. This does nothing.

  

Until something like this is implemented nationally, gun runners from my neck of the woods (Georgia) will keep the gun supply in New York state alive and healthy. There's a reason why I-95 has gotten a reputation for being a strong supply route--it simply is.
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Mir
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:18 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
That does not keep a criminal from getting his/her gun illegally.

Guns aren't created illegally. At some point, they go over from being legal to being illegal. That happens when sales are conducted without background checks, it happens when straw purchases are made, it happens when people who do pass background checks become criminals, and it happens when guns are stolen. You can't do much about the last two, but requiring background checks for all sales and keeping registrations make it a hell of a lot harder to engage in the first two. And that'll make a big difference (or it would if kept up nationally, one state doing it doesn't do a whole lot).

Quoting flymia (Reply 8):
Except this law is limiting a tool good people can use to defend themselves.

The only thing I see that limits people is the magazine capacity, which I've already said I think is too restrictive. If you're looking to rob somewhere, would it really matter to you that you had more bullets in your gun? A gunfight is not necessarily an endurance event - one well-placed shot from a well-trained gun owner and the situation is over.

Whenever you create a law, you're going to limit the good actions of good people - that's an inescapable fact of life. But that shouldn't stop laws from being enacted if the overal benefit of the law outweighs the drawbacks to those particular individuals (until you start running up against people's rights, which is when things get more complicated).

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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:22 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9):
Sucks for NY gun owners, though I'd rather the states go about their own bans than something federal. Don't plan on ever living up in NY... these new measures seem pretty excessive though some I agree with

The law is worthless without federal action. Frankly, it's time to ban ALL sales of semiautomatic weapons nationally and start rounding them in. Only law enforcement and military should have access to such weapons, which should NEVER go home with personnel. When these weapons are simply unavailable, then criminals will not have them because they will not be available to have.

As long as it is done on a state-by-state basis without a national ban, then the critics are correct. The illegal weapons will simply cross borders from places where they are legal and wind up in the hands of criminals.

However, the gun manufacturers and the NRA will make sure it never happens. And the same "constitutional originalists" will claim that the constitution protects their right to posses weapons that didn't exist until 200 years after the Constitution was ratified.
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AirframeAS
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:22 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
Guns aren't created illegally.

I never said that. I said they were obtained (for a better term) illegally by the criminal......

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 6):
That does not keep a criminal from getting his/her gun illegally.
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N867DA
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The law is worthless without federal action. Frankly, it's time to ban ALL sales of semiautomatic weapons nationally and start rounding them in. Only law enforcement and military should have access to such weapons, which should NEVER go home with personnel. When these weapons are simply unavailable, then criminals will not have them because they will not be available to have.

This is the most sensible approach to the problem in my opinion. It will take several years after stringent rules are implemented to see benefit, but over time lack of accessibility to such weapons will reduce their significance in American culture. It must also be implemented nationwide--Alaska to Florida, or more lenient states will become suppliers for states with stricter regulations.
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Mir
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:31 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The law is worthless without federal action.

   But you can't wait for the federal government to act before passing your own legislation on an issue if you feel strongly about it.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
Frankly, it's time to ban ALL sales of semiautomatic weapons nationally and start rounding them in.

I can't go that far. In a perfect world, you'd be right, but the cat's out of the bag on semi-automatics. There are two many of them out there, and there are a lot of people who use them for perfectly reasonable things. The point of gun control should be to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would do harm with them, not restrict what people who don't mean harm can do (of course, you're going to end up restricting what people who don't mean harm can do either way, but you can minimize that harm if you craft the laws appropriately and target what actually needs to be targeted).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
As long as it is done on a state-by-state basis without a national ban, then the critics are correct. The illegal weapons will simply cross borders from places where they are legal and wind up in the hands of criminals.

This is the elephant in the room that's going to be very difficult to address. Until Virginia reforms its gun laws, the Northeast is going to have a problem with illegal guns, because that's where a large portion of the illegal guns come from (and are purchased legally). That's something that only the federal government can stop.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 14):
I said they were obtained (for a better term) illegally by the criminal......

And I described how provisions in this law make it a lot harder to purchase guns without a background check and have someone else buy the gun for you. So if those two avenues are shut down, there are going to be a lot fewer criminals able to get their hands on guns.

-Mir
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DeltaMD90
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:36 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
The law is worthless without federal action. Frankly, it's time to ban ALL sales of semiautomatic weapons nationally and start rounding them in. Only law enforcement and military should have access to such weapons, which should NEVER go home with personnel. When these weapons are simply unavailable, then criminals will not have them because they will not be available to have.

IMO that's just punishing the 99.9% because of the few bad. Even fully autos aren't completely banned and they are very very very very very rarely used in crime (a couple in the last few decades IIRC.) I wouldn't go as far as the NFA went but it goes to show you that you don't have to outright ban them to reduce the violence
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ltbewr
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:45 am

NY State has seen too many gun used multiple murder events. Too many from drug gang and criminal violence. The crazy guy on the LIRR (I used to work with a woman who's father was killed in that mass murder). At a center that helped immigrants in Binghamton, NY. The mass murder of children in Sandy Hook has finally triggered major changes at least in NY State.
Problem is will these new NY State laws work? Criminals will still get handguns and military type guns as well as high capacity magazines. Private individuals, so long as not seen using such now illegal guns and magazines and doing private deals unlikely to be reported will have little to fear. Will police in the majority of NY State's area outside of about 10 urban counties (of over 60 counties in the state) enforce these laws? NY State and in particular NY City already have strict gun and handgun laws that in part have worked, but more likely gun murder rates in that state and in NY City is more about better police procedures, longer sentences for criminals who use guns.
 
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:48 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Tightens the state's description of an "assault" weapon. Previous state law defined an assault weapon as having two "military rifle" features, but the new law reduces that specification to just one feature

So, let me ask: If I had a Tikka T3 30-06 hunting rifle and installed a military style scope on it, does that classify it as a military assault weapon, just because of the scope?? Seriously?!

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
So if those two avenues are shut down, there are going to be a lot fewer criminals able to get their hands on guns.

Let's hope this actually works. Now Congress needs to make this a Federal Law.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
I can't go that far.

Me either, I agree. Like you said, there are wayyy too many of these around nationwide.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
The point of gun control should be to keep weapons out of the hands of those who would do harm with them, not restrict what people who don't mean harm can do

Agreed.
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dl021
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:30 am

A knee jerk reaction that doesn't render anyone safer but leaves law abiding citizens at greater risk and will create an entirely new category of criminals out of formerly law abiding citizens who refuse to be deprived of their property.

They banned magazines in Gocks, Colts, Sigs...not just ARs. I don't even think they considered that .22 target pistols with 9 round magazines were included. What about 8 round revolvers...they are out there.

This law deprives people of their liberty and their property in a doomed effort to make people safer, when only the ignorant and deluded will feel that way.
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fr8mech
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:33 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
I'm no gun expert, so I have no idea what a normal magazine could hold, but it would seem that there are a lot of them out there that would normally hold more than seven rounds. The number I keep hearing is 10-12, which seems reasonable. Seven seems excessive, but I agree on principle.


This basically bans the majority of semi-automatic handguns out there. Most of your double-stack compacts will have a magazine that holds 9-11 rounds. A 'standard' (4 inch'ish barrel) semi-auto will have a capacity of 10 - 16 or 17, depending on caliber (again, double stack). Most of your .380's should be ok since they have 6 or 7 round magazines. Some of your larger caliber single stack should also be ok...the S&W Shield comes to mind, along with some of your smaller 1911 (.45) types. The vast majority of revolvers will be ok. The only exception that comes to mind is Ruger's LCR (capacity 8), but I'm sure there's others. But, since that's not a magazine, does that count?

What I consider the premier marksmanship practice pistol would also be banned; the Ruger Mark series.

I won't even get into rifles. It just about bans every semi-auto matic rifle...or at least the magazines that go into them.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
The pickup requirement I have no problem with at all, nor the background check requirement (though I'd say that a current firearms license should be sufficient - it would save buyers time).


And save cost. I can't imagine an FFL would provide a background check for free. I can see requiring a firearm's permit to purchase. I'm ok with that.

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
Fine in principle, but in practice this is going to end up being a liability nightmare for those in the mental health profession.


Of course, you'd have to legislate around HIPAA.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Stipulates that stolen guns should be reported within 24 hours.


Agreed.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires background checks for all gun sales, including by private dealers -- except for sales to members of the seller's immediate family.


Let's make it a little bit less onerous...a background check or a valid carry or firearm permit. I'm not opposed to that at all.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons.


Nope.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Bans possession of any high-capacity magazines regardless of when they were made or sold. Only clips able to hold up to seven rounds can be sold in the state. Clips able to hold seven to 10 rounds can be possessed, but cannot be loaded with more than seven rounds. If an owner is found to have eight or more bullets in a magazine, he or she could face a misdemeanor charge.


Will NY State pay for the magazine that can't be sold? What about keeping a round in the chamber? If I have a 10 round magazine, but keep 7 in the magazine and one in the chamber, what happens?

All-in-all, feel good legislation that makes no one safer.
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BMI727
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:05 am

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires ammunition dealers to do background checks, similar to those for gun buyers. Dealers are required to report all sales, including amounts, to the state. Internet sales of ammunition are allowed, but the ammunition will have to be shipped to a licensed dealer in New York state for pickup.

Seems like it would be an expensive and annoying exercise, but this better put an end to anti-gun people questioning why gun owners have large stocks of ammunition.

Quoting dragon-wings (Thread starter):
•Requires creation of a registry of assault weapons.

Better not be public.

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Unless the criminals are caught, of course. Then they don't walk free.

Expanding the definition of criminal to people who dare put eight rounds in a magazine doesn't make me feel any safer. (Or wouldn't if I were in New York)

Quoting Mir (Reply 12):
Guns aren't created illegally.

It wouldn't be that difficult actually. Several thousand dollars of tooling, some skill, and materials. I'd say it probably isn't considerably more challenging than bomb making.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 13):
And the same "constitutional originalists" will claim that the constitution protects their right to posses weapons that didn't exist until 200 years after the Constitution was ratified.

In that case you have no problems with warrant-less wiretaps of phone lines or spying on email or cellular communications right? None of those were considered when the Fourth Amendment was written.
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fr8mech
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:10 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
Several thousand dollars of tooling, some skill, and materials.

I could make a servicable single fire breech loader in a couple of hours with the simple tools in my garage. And, I'm no machinists...as any of my A&P instructors would attest to.
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:17 am

I really don't think we need assault rifles and drum magazines to defend ourselves our families and our businesses from criminals or to hunt with. They belong in the battlefield and I would support them in shooting ranges for civilian use, I have no problem with them there but for what reason does one need them in a house other than to fight a police force or army or start an insurrection.
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Mir
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:27 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 23):
I could make a servicable single fire breech loader in a couple of hours with the simple tools in my garage.

I'm not really concerned with anyone trying to use a single fire breech loader in a crime any time soon.

-Mir
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T prop
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:29 am

7 round magazines? Why not just require owners of weapons that are capable of using high capacity magazines have a proper gun safe and to keep the weapons locked up?
 
fr8mech
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:00 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
I'm not really concerned with anyone trying to use a single fire breech loader in a crime any time soon.

Neither am I, though it could certainly ruin someone's day. Just making a comment based on another comment.
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BMI727
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:26 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 25):
I'm not really concerned with anyone trying to use a single fire breech loader in a crime any time soon.

Building more powerful stuff would probably take more effort, but not enough to be impossible or even improbable. Considering the extent of some drug enterprises I don't think that underground machine shops are much of a stretch.
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L-188
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:22 pm

Well NY and Cuome hust proved that they are part of the armpit of America.

Hopefully most of these rules will be dumped in lawsuits.

Remington needs to move its factory out of that state. They are not respected mlby the state, so why stay there
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mt99
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 29):
Remington needs to move its factory out of that state. They are not respected mlby the state, so why stay there

They should. If they don't - you should loose respect to Remington.
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AirframeAS
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 29):
Remington needs to move its factory out of that state.

I agree. I took them as a Texas company. Didn't know that they were NY based.
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L-188
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:48 pm

I haven't bought a Remington in years. I avoided them when about ten years ago they where putting those stupid bolt keys on their rifles.

Worse if you sent one back to the factory for work. they would install the damn thing if you wanted it or not. A lot of people got turned off by that stunt

[Edited 2013-01-16 08:56:51]

Edit: i have really been impressed with the fit and quality of the rifles from CZ. I know i should buy american but the Chechs know how to build a firearm.


[Edited 2013-01-16 08:59:52]
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:56 pm

DISCLAIMER: I DO NOT WHOLEHEARTEDLY AGREE WITH THE NEW LAW. My problem comes with the arguments being thrown at one another in here.

I BEG OF YOU ALL TO READ ALL OF MY COMMENTS, NOT JUST THE ONES YOU'RE QUOTED IN, TO UNDERSTAND MY VIEWPOINT (it's somewhere in the middle).


Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 1):
This makes no sense to me, at all. Whats to stop a criminal who has a 19 round 9mm from killing me when I have a 7 round 9mm? The criminal is going to win while I die. This is not very well thought out.

So if someone breaks into your house, you're going to want to shoot him 19 times??? You're either a terrible shot, or sick. You don't have to kill him 7 times to stop him. You don't even have to kill him once.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 2):
Simple. It doesn't..

No laws do. That's the definition of "criminal". If you want "freedom" and are so jealous of the criminals, go break the law.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 3):
Exactly. NY is actually punishing the honest NY gun owner who follows and abides by the laws at the criminal's expense. Kudos.

OK, Mr. Honest Gun Owner. Justify having 6 guns that each hold 30-round magazines. If you can convince me, I'll flip my opinion on a dime. "It's a hobby" is not enough to convince me, that leaves the realm of "rights" because, although I own several cameras, I'm not going to murder someone with one. "I hunt" isn't justification either, because you can't use multiple rifles at the same time. You're not going to shoot 4 deer at once, nor are you going to shoot onoe 30 times, not are you going to shoot so many deer that you need a big clip of ammunition at the ready.

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free

A bit dramatic, no? As I said above, if you're jealous of the criminal's "rights", then go break the law. Oh, what's that? You don't want to have to break the law to have your way? Then, as above, justify why you need high-power guns with huge ammunition clips.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 18):
NY State has seen too many gun used multiple murder events.

This is my biggest problem with any discussion being put forth. Limiting the number of bullets, or the size of the magazine, may reduce the number of casualites in events like the Aurora or Newtown shootings. If that's your goal, fine. ("Oh, good, only 5 children died.") However, it is NOT going to reduce the number of incidents. The guy in Newtown, had he had smaller clips, would have done just what he did, with fewer casualties. Same in Aurora. HOWEVER, eleminating guns entirely won't help things much either. The kid in Newtown would have found another way to kill his mother, and may have committed atrocities in different ways (car rampage, knife-weilding, etc). The issue in this country is very much a cultural one.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 22):
Better not be public.

I can't imagine it would be. Even I would be against that.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 24):
I really don't think we need assault rifles and drum magazines to defend ourselves our families and our businesses from criminals or to hunt with.

Of course we don't, and this is the biggest argument in support of these laws (see one of my earlier paragraphs).

Quoting L-188 (Reply 29):
Well NY and Cuome hust proved that they are part of the armpit of America.

Really? That's a bit excessive considering some of the laws other states have. How can you call NY the armpit of America when most states still don't recognize same-sex civil unions, and when many people in other parts of the country still think Obama is a Muslim?

TIS
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 33):
So if someone breaks into your house, you're going to want to shoot him 19 times???

Who said I was going to do that? WTF?!

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 33):
You're either a terrible shot, or sick.

Are you trying to be flamebait-ish here? Looks like it. Im not even going to comment on that. Ignorant you are, yes.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 33):
If you can convince me, I'll flip my opinion on a dime.

I have nothing to convince you with. You are not an American citizen nor do you pay American taxes nor do you live here. I do not have to justify myself to you, period.

Your entire post is ignorant and flamebait-ish which shouldn't warrant a response from anyone. You don't need to come off like a jackass.   
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fr8mech
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 33):
So if someone breaks into your house, you're going to want to shoot him 19 times???

If that's what it takes to stop the threat, yes. Let's be clear on this, if someone breaks into your house, he has the advantage. I have no illusion that under stressful conditions, I am the same great shot that I am at the range. That's why I use a laser on my gun. Not because its cool, but because under a stressful situation I need every advantage I can get.

Any piece of literature that I have read on the subject of carrying a gun a and using it in self-defense says the same thing, you shot until the threat no longer exists. That may be one round, that may be 10 rounds. For some, it may be more.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 33):
I can't imagine it would be. Even I would be against that.

But, isn't that what just happened in NY. The names and addresses of gun permit holders were given to a newspaper under a FOIA request. The paper than went onto publish said names and addresses on a really cool interactive map.
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:19 pm

I'll try to remain as respectful as I can. One of us has to try.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
Who said I was going to do that? WTF?!

Your post (the text I quoted) said, "This makes no sense to me, at all. Whats to stop a criminal who has a 19 round 9mm from killing me when I have a 7 round 9mm? The criminal is going to win while I die. This is not very well thought out." This implies you imagine yourself at a disadvantage with only 7 rounds and that you expect the gunfight to be a contest of who can shoot the other more often.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
Are you trying to be flamebait-ish here? Looks like it. Im not even going to comment on that. Ignorant you are, yes.

I am most certainly not ignorant. I am not a gun owner, I'll admit, but I have used firearms (in a safe environment) and would be entirely in support of someone owning a pistol for self-defense in their home. I am mostly for this new law, yes, but I am certainly not completely against any type of gun ownership, either.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
I have nothing to convince you with. You are not an American citizen nor do you pay American taxes nor do you live here. I do not have to justify myself to you, period.

Wrong. I am an American (born here, lived here my whole life). I am also a small business owner, so I pay my taxes and my dues, maybe even in more ways than you do. Not only that, I live in NYS where this law may end up affecting me, so I am more qualified to comment on this scenario than many others.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
Your entire post is ignorant and flamebait-ish which shouldn't warrant a response from anyone. You don't need to come off like a jackass.

It wasn't intended as such, and I apologize for calling you "sick." I'll admit my reaction to the apparently ridiculousness of wanting to have more bullets "so you'd be even with the criminal" got my blood boiling. As someone else stated, a gunfight isn't an endurance test.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
Any piece of literature that I have read on the subject of carrying a gun a and using it in self-defense says the same thing, you shot until the threat no longer exists. That may be one round, that may be 10 rounds. For some, it may be more.

This seems like a slight lapse in gun training, but I'll admit I can't make judgement until I've been in that situation, which I hope nobody ever has to be.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
But, isn't that what just happened in NY. The names and addresses of gun permit holders were given to a newspaper under a FOIA request. The paper than went onto publish said names and addresses on a really cool interactive map.

Yes, it is what just happened, but I said (or I thought I said) that it shouldn't be public. The Journal News' oversight (they're my local paper, and my LLC's formation notice actually appeared the same day the map did) was one that I think was stupid and propaganda-motivated.

TIS

[Edited 2013-01-16 10:22:28]
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:32 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 36):

You came off very harsh and disrespectful, that why I responded the way I did. You don't deserve any explanation from me.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 36):
I am an American (born here, lived here my whole life).

Well, hot damn! You could have avoided the response I gave you by changing that flag of yours that currently shows "Switzerland". That is also why you got the response you got from me. That is your own damn fault. Quit misrepresenting yourself saying you are from Switzerland when you really are not. That will solve some of the confusions here, especially on threads like this.
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mt99
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:44 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):

Well, hot damn! You could have avoided the response I gave you by changing that flag of yours that currently shows "Switzerland". That is also why you got the response you got from me. That is your own damn fault. Quit misrepresenting yourself saying you are from Switzerland when you really are not. That will solve some of the confusions here, especially on threads like this.

Yikes..Alex Jones.. is that you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Ddb3oa5CE
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 38):
Yikes..Alex Jones.. is that you?

Uh, what??   
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mt99
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 39):

Uh, what??

You are so calm and rational.. you reminded me of him.
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
I'm no gun expert, so I have no idea what a normal magazine could hold, but it would seem that there are a lot of them out there that would normally hold more than seven rounds. The number I keep hearing is 10-12, which seems reasonable. Seven seems excessive, but I agree on principle.

I agree, seven is ridiculous. Even though I don't see the point, if anything, go to ten, since that was the last allowed limitation. These magazines are already in existence and many people own them. For reference, my Glock 23 holds 13 rounds of 40, and my wife's Glock 19 holds 15 rounds of 9mm.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 33):
"I hunt" isn't justification either, because you can't use multiple rifles at the same time. You're not going to shoot 4 deer at once, nor are you going to shoot onoe 30 times, not are you going to shoot so many deer that you need a big clip of ammunition at the ready.

Not at the same time, but if you are an avid hunter, you probably hunt several different species. You wouldn't use the same gun for deer as you would for prairie dogs for example. Then you get into bird hunting and that's a whole different ballgame.

I have never hunted, but I'm pretty sure 30 rounds would be excessive and you probably shouldn't be hunting if you need that many   Ammo capacity is already limited by hunting regulations anyways

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 36):
This seems like a slight lapse in gun training, but I'll admit I can't make judgement until I've been in that situation, which I hope nobody ever has to be.

Not really. Police officers get a lot of training and statistics say that even your 95% shooter at the range will drop to a 20% shooter in a stressful situation. Which is why a lot of police training now includes inducing stress on the range.
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AirframeAS
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 40):
You are so calm and rational.. you reminded me of him.

Uh, yeah sure... pick on the deaf guy.    That video doesn't do anything for me. Sorry.
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Mir
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
Let's be clear on this, if someone breaks into your house, he has the advantage. I have no illusion that under stressful conditions, I am the same great shot that I am at the range.

The intruder is also going to be under stress, and you have the advantage of knowing the layout of the house while the intruder probably doesn't. I'd think that would tend to equal things out.

-Mir
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mt99
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 42):

Uh, yeah sure... pick on the deaf guy. That video doesn't do anything for me. Sorry.

You can get the jist by looking at him. But here is transcript

http://lybio.net/tag/alex-jones-vs-p...rgan-on-gun-control-transcription/
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:06 pm

As is typical in New York, Politicians never waste a tragedy, neither does the press. When some nut job decides to cross the line and cause injury to others, naturally new laws are legislated and everyone suffers. All the rules, regs and all that are not going to prevent psycho cases from assaulting other humans with whatever they see as a useful tool to accomplish the evil they conjure up. Just like on 9/11, Are we to ban airliners or sky scrapers because of the propensity of some dastardly deed perpetrated by some idiots. In the last 6 weeks three people have died by the hand of subway cars, do we cry out for a ban on subways?. No, any rational thinking person understands the realities of the day of 9/11, the realities of accidents and or intentional harm by others. So while Mr. Cuomo's, whose rants were tantamount to Tom Cruises jumping up and down on Oprah's TV set couch, I doubt much was accomplished here other than the tightening of the noose further on the local hardworking NY, taxpayers that bother no one, have suffered from the recent hurricane, some still without a home and not to mention, some witnessed looting of their own personal belongings from their ravaged homes and could do nothing. Now we will be able to further, do nothing, given even tighter restrictions. But congratulations Mr. Cuomo on being the First in the Nation to pass ridiculous legislation...again. I couldn't imagine being the parent of any loved one murdered by another, I hope I never have to experience it but I am aware that mean people exist and unfortunately the only way they stand out is after the fact. You can't outlaw mental illness. But then again, this is NEW York, maybe you can.
 
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting EMBQA (Reply 5):
Once agin the law abiding citizen gets the shaft, the criminal walks free

Cry me a river. Every ****ing dog (yes, every barking dog) in my town has a license tag hanging around its neck and I don't hear dog owners complaining. In fact it helps police locate missing dogs and helps them identify dogs that are ****ing (yes barking) in my yard.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 34):
You are not an American citizen nor do you pay American taxes nor do you live here. I do not have to justify myself to you, period.

And I presume that you are not a NY state citizen, so it doesn't impact you, move along...
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
And I presume that you are not a NY state citizen, so it doesn't impact you, move along...

No need to move along, and I effing won't. It impacts me and it also impacts the whole country. When one State adopts a tough law, many other States will follow. It's a classic case of "Monkey see, Monkey do".

Don't believe me? Just watch for the next few months on what the other States will do.

And no, I don't live in NY. NY is still in the U.S. is it not?? So it does impact me greatly.
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fr8mech
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 43):
The intruder is also going to be under stress, and you have the advantage of knowing the layout of the house while the intruder probably doesn't. I'd think that would tend to equal things out.

But, he has probably done this before. I haven't. He has a real good idea on how far he's willing to go. I have no clue what he's willing to do. My knowing the layout of the house is a marginal advantage that probably goes out the door while I'm under stress. My biggest advantage, in my home, was my Dobermann. Sadly, she's gone and we're not ready to get another one.

I was a firefighter for 10 years. I understand what immediate onset stress can do. It warps time. It destroys fine motor skills. A great deal of stress reduces the stressed person to instinctive reactions. That's why fire departments train incessantly. To minimize the effects of stress.

Sorry, if the intruder or mugger or attacker is initiating the action, he will have the initial advantage by default. Everything I do after that is catch-up...and may well fail.
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RE: NY Passes Tough New Guns Laws

Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:06 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
And I presume that you are not a NY state citizen, so it doesn't impact you, move along...

No need to move along, and I effing won't. It impacts me and it also impacts the whole country.

It only directly impacts citizens of NY state, since this is a NY state law. It impacts you about as much as the Swiss guy, who you seemed to be quite happy to tell to go p*ss off.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
When one State adopts a tough law, many other States will follow. It's a classic case of "Monkey see, Monkey do".

Baloney. If so, then you are stipulating that the deep red states will be taking OR's new laws on recreational marijuana and GBLT marriage and adopting them, which we both know is about as likely as OR mandating Christian prayer and creationism in its schools.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
Don't believe me? Just watch for the next few months on what the other States will do.

Ok, I'll be watching for two married GBLTs sparking up a joint at the Texas State House. Let me know when that happens.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 47):
And no, I don't live in NY. NY is still in the U.S. is it not?? So it does impact me greatly.

No, it doesn't.

How come the right was all about state's rights when it came to health care, but all of a sudden they are afraid of state's rights? I thought government was supposed to function as close to the local level as possible, no?
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
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