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1337Delta764
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City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 3:50 am

According to this article:
http://phoenix.gov/citygovernment/me.../publicmeetings/meetnotices/092115

The City of Phoenix has hired a fuel consultant, and has determined that LNG buses have no future due to decreasing parts availability and lack of support for the technology. Instead, they will be purchasing CNG buses going forward, and thus has ordered 120 New Flyer 40-foot CNG buses off the RPTA contract. I wonder if they will be C40LFs, C40LFRs, or XN40s.

The City of Phoenix operates the largest LNG bus fleet in the United States, and is the latest transit agency to give up on the technology.

Here in the Phoenix area, the RPTA has given up on LNG a long time ago; the last LNG buses to be purchased by the RPTA were three ElDorado National EZ Rider IIs in 2002; all purchases by the RPTA since then have been for either CNG or diesel buses.

Also, the City of Tempe apparently has given up on LNG after the New Flyer L40LFR order in 2009, which I presume was just an experiment to determine if future purchases should be CNG or LNG, All Tempe orders (save for the New Flyer DE60LFRs, which are diesel-electric hybrids) have been for CNG buses ever since.

Outside of the Phoenix area, another major LNG operator, OCTA in Orange County, California, has shifted to CNG for its latest purchases.
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:31 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
The City of Phoenix operates the largest LNG bus fleet in the United States, and is the latest transit agency to give up on the technology.

Most of that is tied to the airport... All the airport and rental car shuttles. Hence that is why the Sky Train is replacing them for the most part.
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:00 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 1):
Most of that is tied to the airport... All the airport and rental car shuttles. Hence that is why the Sky Train is replacing them for the most part.

Actually, the airport shuttles are CNG, not LNG. The airport shuttle operation is completely independent from the Phoenix public transit department.

Currently, none of the three Phoenix transit facilities are equipped for CNG. However, this will change soon, where equipment to convert the LNG into CNG will be installed.
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):

The City of Phoenix has hired a fuel consultant, and has determined that LNG buses have no future due to decreasing parts availability and lack of support for the technology.

Funny they should say LNG has no future, shipping companies have been ordering LNG tankers like crazy, so someone somewhere is shipping a lot of LNG around the world for use somewhere.
 
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):

Are we talking about Valley Metro? Who is RPTA??
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:38 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
Funny they should say LNG has no future, shipping companies have been ordering LNG tankers like crazy, so someone somewhere is shipping a lot of LNG around the world for use somewhere.

Transportation over long distances makes more sense as LNG due to its 2.4 to 1 higher density. But for use in vehicles the ratio changes due to the added weight of insulated pressure tanks for LNG vs just pressure tanks for CNG, especially for somewhere like Phoenix. I'm sure they are loosing a good percentage of fuel to pressure safety release during high temperature, which is often?

LNG becomes CNG by itself if you let it warm up... just have to keep the pressure balanced.
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:52 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 4):
Are we talking about Valley Metro? Who is RPTA??

Yes, the RPTA is Valley Metro. However, the Valley Metro name is used be several different transit agencies in the Valley, the Phoenix Transit Department being one of them. The City of Phoenix actually manages three different transit divisions (North, South, and West), however, the North and South Divisions operate under a single contract (Veolia), with the West Division being separate (First Transit).

The RPTA, on the other hand, manages the transit operations out of the Mesa facility (also operated by Veolia), as well as the Glendale facility (which is operated by Valu Trans/Discount Cab) jointly with the City of Glendale. In addition, the RPTA manages operations of the Gila Bend Regional Connector, which is operated by Ajo Transportation.

Another major agency here is Tempe in Motion, or TIM, which is managed by the City of Tempe and also operated by Veolia. However, there is a proposal to unify Tempe transit operations with the RPTA, where the RPTA will manage operations out of both the Mesa and Tempe facilities. It has been found that unifying the transit operations of both agencies would lead to significant cost savings for both the City of Tempe and the RPTA, and it looks like it is now likely to happen since the estimated cost savings are greater than what was initially expected. A new contract should be awarded soon, and shortly afterward the RPTA and the City of Tempe will vote on an intergovernmental agreement. Since 2009, the City of Tempe has purchased most of its transit buses off the RPTA contract with New Flyer, and currently has an order for 16 New Flyer C40LFRs to replace the rest of the aging NABI 35/40-LFW LNG fleet. They will also be purchasing new ElDorado National 30-foot buses and StarTrans cutaways off the RPTA contract to replace the existing ORBIT circulator fleet.

One more agency is the City of Scottsdale Trolley, which is operated by Ollie the Trolley (aka Dunn Transportation), however, the Scottsdale Trolley does not use the Valley Metro name. However, the City of Scottsdale tends to collaborate with the RPTA at times, for example they are temporarily leasing six NABI 40-LFW CNG buses from the RPTA as an interim replacement for their ElDorado National EZ Rider LNG fleet (which were retired last month due to their horrid condition). The NABI 40-LFWs should remain in service with the Scottsdale Trolley until the 30/35-foot Gillig hybrids arrive late this year, which were purchased by the RPTA for the City of Scottsdale. Four of the 30-foot Gilligs will have a full trolley replica package, while the rest of the Gilligs will simply be painted like trolleys.

[Edited 2013-01-16 10:54:45]
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AirframeAS
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:00 pm

RPTA stands for what?
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:05 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 7):
RPTA stands for what?
Regional Public Transportation Authority
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
Regional Public Transportation Authority

I lived in PHX for 5 years, 2002-2008, and I have never heard of that. Just Valley Metro.
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dlramp4life
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 8):
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 9):

The company that owns valley metro
http://www.veoliatransportation.com/index
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Wed Jan 16, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting dlramp4life (Reply 10):
The company that owns valley metro
http://www.veoliatransportation.com/index

Veolia does NOT own Valley Metro; they are contracted by various agencies here in the Valley (the RPTA, the City of Tempe, and the City of Phoenix). In fact, the Tempe and RPTA contract is coming up for renewal, and the award recommendation is to First Transit.

[Edited 2013-01-16 13:44:33]
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:44 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
OCTA in Orange County, California, has shifted to CNG for its latest purchases.

The decision sticking to CNG vs LNG was made due to the fact they can run pipelines to the divisions and make it themselves. OCTAs LNG buses are stored at 2 operating divisions and they get shipments of the fuel on an every-other-day basis. If the fuel truck is late, which has happened on a few occasions, the TA will reactivate the reserve fleet until the buses arrive.

The LNG NABIs will be around until at least 2014, as some of them gotten mini rehabs ... Same with Santa Monicas NABIs.

The next buses due for replacement are the D60LFs... in which they already have 20 NFI XN60s on order for their replacement

The 2007 NFI C40LFRs are getting midlife rehabs...so the remaining 1997/'98 NFI D40LFs will take their place as 5-6 buses are done per week.
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RE: City Of Phoenix To Stop Buying LNG Transit Buses

Tue Jan 22, 2013 3:08 pm

What we are seeing around the industry that I am involved is bi-fuel. Diesel with CNG.
CNG is proportionately substituted above idle according to load and then trimmed back out above 80% load. (engine load not throttle position)
It is just bolt on kit with the exception that you have to tap a hole or tee into an existing port for intercooler pressure and exhaust gas temp.
Some are having excellent results with over 60% substitution of diesel with CNG. The CNG storage cylinders, are not very large and are good for about 400 miles from what I understand.
When the CNG runs out the engine just seamlessly continues on diesel until you refill the CNG tank.

I do not know how BTU content converts to an engine but BTU wise it takes about 7.1 gallons of diesel to equal one MCF of Nat Gas. So you are talking roughly at today's prices $24 of diesel vs $5 of nat gas.

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