RussianJet
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Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:21 pm

In what has been described as a 'bungled raid' by the Algerian army, it appears most of the hostages have been killed. Various nationalities have lost lives, including the UK and US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...Britons-die-in-bungled-rescue.html

Both the UK and the US offered military assistance to bring the situation to an end, but this was refused. GREAT choice there Algeria, thanks a bunch.   

Very sad.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:26 pm

Terrible, RIP. As bad as this sounds, even 1 person surviving an AQ hostage is welcome news. I hope there are indeed more survivors but as said, we should be braced for the worst

A lot of times AQ makes the demands so outrageous the hostages have no chance of making it out  
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RussianJet
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
A lot of times AQ makes the demands so outrageous the hostages have no chance of making it out

Perhaps, but a real shame they didn't let more experienced military personnel attempt rescue.
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Tugger
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
In what has been described as a 'bungled raid' by the Algerian army, it appears most of the hostages have been killed. Various nationalities have lost lives, including the UK and US.

Hmmm, From what I had read there were something like 300 hostages. So while 30 people dying is bad it is not "all of them". We'll have to wait and see what has actually occurred and just how bad it is.

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Dreadnought
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
A lot of times AQ makes the demands so outrageous the hostages have no chance of making it out

Which is when you send in professionals to put bullets in their heads in a proficient military manner.
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RussianJet
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:58 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Hmmm, From what I had read there were something like 300 hostages

Wow, I have to admit I didn't realise there were that many.

The British PM seems pretty peeved though.....
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:13 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 2):
Perhaps, but a real shame they didn't let more experienced military personnel attempt rescue.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Which is when you send in professionals to put bullets in their heads in a proficient military manner.

Oh I wasn't talking about the fact that the Algerian government denied assistance. Dumb move, I agree
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Aesma
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:31 am

For the number of hostages, figures as high as 400 have been mentioned. This is because most are/were Algerians (as you would expect in Algeria), and for some reason news sources decided to put hostages in several categories, making the whole affair more difficult to understand.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Both the UK and the US offered military assistance to bring the situation to an end, but this was refused.

Well, both the UK and US would never accept military assistance from Algeria, so it's understandable. And not new, in 1978 with an AF plane involved the same thing happened, so now Algeria supposedly has trained teams for such things.

We don't have enough information yet, but from what I heard, I doubt a better outcome would have been achieved by anybody else, there were explosive belts involved, and of course the terrorists were ready for martyrdom.

What is really a concern is rather that the attack could happen and succeed to begin with, as Algeria is always claiming to have a tight grip on its borders (and is in fact claiming the raid came from inside, which might be true).

As for negotiating with terrorists in such situations, it hasn't worked in a long time, and the Algerian army is killing terrorists on a regular basis, they're not going to even pretend to agree to negotiate.
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Mortyman
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:12 am

Apparently representatives frokm the Norwegian Special Forces unit FSK was sendt to Alger on Wednesday to try and advice the Algerians. http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ir...il-Algerie-7095227.html#xtor=RSS-3

But they seem to have arrived to late. The Algerians does'nt seem to have spent alot of time on planning this operations .... It has been mentioned that the Algerian army used rockets fired from hellicopter ...

[Edited 2013-01-17 17:17:04]

[Edited 2013-01-17 17:25:10]
 
DNDTUF
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:57 am

Very sad indeed. From reading the press here in France and also the Francophone Algérie Press Service, it would appear that Algeria was reluctant to accept any outside intervention (which is completely understandable given that this happened on Algerian territory with most of the hostages being Algerian citizens). It would seem that, again quite understabably, Algeria doesn't want to seem soft on Islamist terrorism, so took the heavy handed decision to attack the gas field via aerial intervention. Given the country's position at the heart of the Mediterranean, Arab states and Africa, I can only imagine the pressure the government was under. I think everyone should wait for more details before condemning anything.

On another note, France's terror threat level, the Vigipirate, has been heightened to red, the second highest level, given the recent developments in Mali. I hope that the recent events in Algeria won't provoke any sort of retribution in France.

I've heard that several Scottish citizens were caught up in this, let's hope for the best news possible for everyone who has been affected by this.

DNDTUF
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:00 am

9 Norwegians still unaccounted for ...
 
QFA380
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:51 am

Incredibly rushed operation, I haven't read too much but to launch an enormous counter terrorism operation within 48 hours seems quite foolhardy considering they likely knew very little oh how many terrorists, where the hostages were being kept, what the terrorists were armed with. Crucial things to know before going in guns (rockets) blazing. The US, UK and others will rightly be pretty pissed that their citizens were so hastily thrown under the bus.
 
Akiestar
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:56 am

Over 20 Filipinos are unaccounted for. I hope they're all right.  
http://www.interaksyon.com/article/5...os-among-hostages-in-algeria---dfa
 
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Aesma
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:40 am

Well the operation wasn't rushed per se, TV news here said that it's the terrorists that attempted to escape with the hostages, precipitating the response.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Pellegrine
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:23 am

Good for the Algerians standing up to the AQIM barbarians.

Algeria has always stood up to islamists and have always decimated them. It's sad that hostages had to die, but I applaud Algeria's government standing up to these savage nonsensical people.

I think the US, UK, and Japan need to shut up with regards to 'not being told ahead of time'. The US and UK do not run the world. Algeria can and will do as it pleases in its own country. What it has shown is resolve against militants.

Rather than turn this into a long, drawn out hostage mess. End it in just over 24 hours.    I think the next statement from Algeria should be, "we are not going to be beholden to terroristic activities of AQIM and spillover from North Mali. We will shoot and kill jihadists threatening our sovereignty in the quickest way possible."

Criticism against the Algerians is missing the point. Algerians don't negotiate with terrorists, just as the US Govt doesn't.
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pvjin
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:44 am

So were there truly hundreds of hostages or just 41 like some Finnish news website is reporting? 30 dead from 41 seems like a horrible fail of Algerians, but then 30 dead from hundreds doesn't seem so bad result at all.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 14):
Algerians don't negotiate with terrorists, just as the US Govt doesn't.

Yeah and that usually costs blood of innocent civilians, but of course in some countries national pride is more important than human life. If I got taken hostage by some terrorists sure I would rather see my government trying to negotiate first.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
tu204
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:11 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):

And I understand that and we're I taken hostage I would feel the same way. However, that would open the door for such future attacks if terrorists see that they can accomplish something more than a bullet to the head with their actions.
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Pellegrine
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 10:03 am

Another issue to this... Natural gas and oil are one of the primary money-makers for Algeria's economy. Do you think for a second that they would let radical Islamists seize and keep a gas field? What kind of precedent does that set? What kind of precedent does it set that they will send in their military not even 2 days later? Algerian powers that be aren't stupid. They are going to protect their golden geese at all costs.

Furthermore. When a westerner goes to work in a foreign place that has security problems, you cannot expect the same level of protection as working in the country you come from. The deserts of Algeria and Libya are a lot different from Houston, Oslo, London, Paris, etc.
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RussianJet
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 12:11 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
So were there truly hundreds of hostages or just 41 like some Finnish news website is reporting?

I can't believe how incredibly hazy the reporting actually is on this in our media in the UK.

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 14):
Criticism against the Algerians is missing the point. Algerians don't negotiate with terrorists, just as the US Govt doesn't.

Not really, as the issue is whether they should have accepted help with a raid - that's not negotiating. While Algeria may have some experience of this sort of thing, I struggle to believe their armed forces would be as well-resourced or experienced of those the UK or US may have helped with.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Well the operation wasn't rushed per se, TV news here said that it's the terrorists that attempted to escape with the hostages, precipitating the response.

That, of course, would certainly put a different slant on things if true.
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pvjin
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 18):
I can't believe how incredibly hazy the reporting actually is on this in our media in the UK.

Yeah well now it seems that apparently there truly were hundreds of hostages, I guess this Finnish rubbish media only counted western hostages then...

Well now I understand Algerian operation better, at first I thought there were only 41 hostages and that 30 of them died in the attack which of course would have been total disaster, but now 30 dead from +600 hostages isn't that bad.
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rfields5421
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
So were there truly hundreds of hostages or just 41 like some Finnish news website is reporting? 30 dead from 41 seems like a horrible fail of Algerians, but then 30 dead from hundreds doesn't seem so bad result at all.

Looking around the web it appears that most news organizations are playing with the numbers.

Yes, there were several hundred hostages.

Most were local nationals.

Most nation news organizations/ web sites seem to be reporting the number of hostages as the number of their nationals, or area countries. The 41 number is likely the number of scandanivians.

30 of that group were not killed. Apparently 30 total were killed.

Some US news sources are reporting 30 killed, and some are saying there were 10 Americans, with five recovered safely and the fate of five unknown.

It's probably too early after the hostage taking and the recovery raid to have reliable numbers.

But not having accurate numbers has never stopped news organizations for reporting distored 'facts'.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:08 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
Yeah and that usually costs blood of innocent civilians, but of course in some countries national pride is more important than human life. If I got taken hostage by some terrorists sure I would rather see my government trying to negotiate first.

That would arguably lead to more deaths. If AQ gets wind that we'll do whatever they wanted to get a hostage back, do you not think they'd just kidnap a lot more? I mean it sucks but in the long run I think it keeps the kidnappings down
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 1):
A lot of times AQ makes the demands so outrageous

Where did AQ come from? Remember?

The organisation grew out of the network of Arab volunteers who had gone to Afghanistan in the 1980s to fight under the banner of Islam against Soviet Communism.
====During the anti-Soviet jihad Bin Laden and his fighters received American and Saudi funding. Some analysts believe Bin Laden himself had security training from the CIA.====
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1670089.stm

Why did we help them in first place?

 Wow!

...
It was the latest surprising development in a hostage drama that began Wednesday when ===militants=== seized hundreds of workers from 10 nations at Algeria's remote Ain Amenas natural gas plant. Algerian forces retaliated Thursday by storming the plant in an attempted rescue operation that killed at least four hostages and left leaders around the world expressing strong concerns about the hostages' safety.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-01-18-09-20-41

Now these same groups (all "disciples" of OBL) are turning against us.

 Wow!
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
Where did AQ come from? Remember?

Yes I do remember. What's your point? That has nothing to do with giving into demands regarding hostages, the point we are discussing now...      
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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Aesma
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
Yeah and that usually costs blood of innocent civilians, but of course in some countries national pride is more important than human life. If I got taken hostage by some terrorists sure I would rather see my government trying to negotiate first.

Well they're terrorists not bank robbers, not even pirates. They don't want money to go live on an island, they want ways to kill even more innocent civilians, so there is really no point in negotiating.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
rfields5421
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:50 pm

CNN is now reporting that there were 132 'foreign' hostages taken by the terrorists - according to the Algerian government press agency.

100 of those have been freed by the Algerian raid, and that status of the other 32 is unknown according to Algerian sources.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:00 pm

The situation is still ongoing. There were hostages and assailants in the "town" part of the site, this has ended, however a dozen terrorists with around 30 hostages are in the production part, so there is no way to attack with explosives and the like, or there could be a major disaster.
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MadameConcorde
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:37 pm

But aren't rebels good people and freedom fighters?

That's what they said about Libya and Syria but now they are terrorists?

 Wow!  
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
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Aesma
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:52 pm

One man's resistance fighter is another man's terrorist.

In this case though, they're not fighting for a country that existed before, and don't have the support of the local population either, so they're only there for themselves.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
AR385
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 11):
Incredibly rushed operation, I haven't read too much but to launch an enormous counter terrorism operation within 48 hours seems quite foolhardy considering

The operation was precipitated because the terrorists attempted boarding buses with the hostages for transporting them God nows where. That is why rockets launched from helicopters were used. To destroy the buses or trucks. It´s not like the Algerians rushed anything. They had no choice.

A more pointed question would be why Western governments did not warn their citizens in that part of the world of possible consequences after the Mali operation started by France. I heard that today over 600 ex-pats were evacuated from the region into Palma.

As for negotiating. There is no negotiating with these animals.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 15):
So were there truly hundreds of hostages or just 41 like some Finnish news website is reporting? 30 dead from 41 seems like a horrible fail of Algerians, but then 30 dead from hundreds doesn't seem so bad result at all.

Its in the hundreds. Some sources say 400, others 500, others 600.
 
connies4ever
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 14):
Algeria has always stood up to islamists and have always decimated them.

While that is true, it came at a horrific cost: more than 50,000 dead, GIA,Algerian forces, and mostly civilians.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
They don't want money to go live on an island, they want ways to kill even more innocent civilians, so there is really no point in negotiating.

Actually, no. What they want is for all Westerners and other infidels (Japanese, Filipinos, for example) to leave Algeria and other places they define as Muslim, so that a new caliphate can arise. They want what they view as 'purity'.

Use of terror is, in their eyes, a means to an end.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8):
Apparently representatives frokm the Norwegian Special Forces unit FSK was sendt to Alger on Wednesday to try and advice the Algerians.

I can't see Norwegian special forces having more experience in these matters than the locals. They're not the SAS or Delta.
 
rfields5421
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
I can't see Norwegian special forces having more experience in these matters than the locals. They're not the SAS or Delta.

But they have almost certainly trained with both.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
Actually, no. What they want is for all Westerners and other infidels (Japanese, Filipinos, for example) to leave Algeria and other places they define as Muslim, so that a new caliphate can arise. They want what they view as 'purity'.

The thing is, they kill mainly Muslims in the process, making very few friends.
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Mudboy
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 8:48 pm

They should have asked the US to send CAG or DEVGRU, or the UK to send the SAS? Although I am not sure if it was DEV or a regular SEAL team that screwed up the last hostage rescue attempt, by fragging the hostage? Why not ask the pro's to do what they do best?
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
I can't see Norwegian special forces having more experience in these matters than the locals. They're not the SAS or Delta.

The various Norwegian specialforces has trained and indeed been on several missions with all the US specialforces and also UK specialforces. All the major US and UK specialforces also train with the Norwegian specialforces annually in Norway for several decades including CAG, DEVGRU, Seal Team 6, SAS, SBS, etc. They don't come to Norway just for the scenary and weather conditions alone, but also because the Norwegian specialforces give them a serious run for their money and have been known to "park" especially the US specialforces on several occations. The UK specialforces was the ones that helped Norway in the start when we started up with our own specialforces several decades ago. The US and especially the UK specialforces are among the best in the world, but they are not invincible. One of the special,forces untis in Norway are especially trained to deal with terror against oil and gas installations in the North sea.

Forsvarets Spesialkommando ( Armed Forces' Special Command ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsvarets_Spesialkommando_(FSK)" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forsvarets_Spesialkommando_(FSK)

Marinejegerkommandoen ( Marine specialforces ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinejegerkommandoen" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinejegerkommandoen

Hærens Jegerkommando ( Army HUnter commando ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A6rens_Jegerkommando

Kystjegerkommandoen ( The Coastal Ranger Command ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kystjegerkommandoen" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kystjegerkommandoen

Minedykkerkommandoen ( The Mine Diver Command ) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minedykkerkommandoen" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minedykkerkommandoen

[Edited 2013-01-18 13:55:48]

[Edited 2013-01-18 14:01:51]
 
Newark727
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 12:55 am

So how well do we understand the situation now? I saw this story breaking yesterday but news sources were still confused. It's apparent that it was a very bloody operation, I hope the families of the innocents killed find peace...
 
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Mortyman
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:10 am

One American confirmed dead:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/01/18/wo...ostage-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

RIP




A millitary installation basically next door to the plant.

Talk of an inside job now ... Apparently there is a millitary camp with several hundreds of Algerian soldiers on the way between the residential area and the plant. How the hell did the terrorists get passed it without these Algerian soldiers doing anything ? The soldiers had advanced survailance cameras, weaphons etc. Apparently they were asleep ...


Article in Norwegian:

http://www.nrk.no/nyheter/verden/1.10878494

[Edited 2013-01-18 18:17:17]
 
Quokkas
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:43 am

RIP to those who died in the attempt and sympathy to those who have lost someone.

Algerian State media is reported as saying that 650 hostages, including 573 Algerians have been freed. The Algerian Interior Ministry is also claiming that the Masked Brigade fighters came from Libya. It would be a sad irony if they were armed with weapons supplied by the west to overthrow Gaddafi.

Al Jazeera reports that the US is being careful not to be seen as sending in any troops to avoid giving the "impression of invading another Muslim-majority nation". While the US may have "offered help", if the report is true, this may have been limited to technical advice rather than personnel engaged directly in carrying out a rescue mission.

However, just as the Algerians do not wish to be seen as soft on terrorism, the US comment on a prisoner swap demanded by the Masked Brigade (i.e. we will release hostages if you release our fighters elsewhere, etc) was "the United States does not negotiate with terrorists."

So at some stage there would have been a shoot-out. Question is, would the results achieved by the "professionals" been any different? Would it have been any more successful than the joint US-French attempt to rescue French intelligence officer, Denis Allex, held by Al-Shebab in Somalia?

"United States combat aircraft briefly entered Somali airspace to support the rescue operation, if needed. These aircraft did not employ weapons during the operation," Obama said in his letter to to Congress on Sunday.

So, not one but two groups of "professionals" and the mission a resounding success - if the aim was to kill the French intelligence officer.

[Edited 2013-01-18 18:58:45]
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Mortyman
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:23 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):
including 573 Algerians have been freed

From what I understand they were allowed to go. The terrorist were not interested in them. Only foreigners...
 
seb146
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:19 am

I see we (read: media) is really concerned with the oil and gas but not the war in Mali.
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QFA380
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:36 am

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):
Masked Brigade fighters came from Libya. It would be a sad irony if they were armed with weapons supplied by the west to overthrow Gaddafi.

As far as I'm aware they were indeed. Mercenaries hired by the rebels and presumedly assisted by the west, who now have moved onto Mali. Apparently this is one of the reasons they've been so effective, battle hardened mercenaries with new weapons against the tiny Malian army.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 4:46 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 40):
I see we (read: media) is really concerned with the oil and gas but not the war in Mali.

Not really sure why you would say this. Can't necessarily speak for the US, but the Mali situation has received plenty of coverage in the news here. Having said that, it happens to be a fact that the US is not directly participating in that operation, and yet there are US nationals involved in this hostage situation - so if you in the US are seeing more coverage of this then may it's partly because of that rather obvious reason, and also because of the acute nature of this situation compared with the more ongoing nature of the other.

Frankly, I find your comment a little distasteful, as even if the Algeria situation really is receiving more attention right now then it's pretty understandable. It's as though you somehow resent coverage of an obviously important hostage situation involving US and other foreign nationals, using it as a reason to trumpet the very tired and facile oil line.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:31 am

Western countries generally set the priority in saving the hostages, even if this means giving in to some of the terrorist´s demands (under the presumption that you can always get them later under better circumstances).
It could be said that such an attitude actually encourages hostage takings.

Algeria, Russia and some other countries on the other hand prioritise eliminating the terrorists. If some hostages get rescued, fine, but the priority is to kill the terrorists, so that they would never ever gain an advantage from taking hostages.
This also means that thr Algerian hostages in this crisis were worthless for the terrorists, since the Algerian government would sacrifice them if necessary anyway.
They were depending on the (mainly western) nations of most of the foreign hostages to put pressure on the Algerian government to negotiate and give in to the terrorists to have tneir own citizens released (e.g. Japan´s government has already summoned the Algerian ambassador tro explain why not more was done to save the Japanese hostages).
When it looked as if the terrorists would disappear into the desert, where they are very adept of living in, they had to act and do it fast, also to forestall foreign pressure to give in to terrorist´s demands.
Face it: if you get taken hostage by terrorits in a country like Algeria or Russia, you are essentially toast and just a political pawn to be sacrifised if necessary.-

Jan
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seb146
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 5:32 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 42):
Not really sure why you would say this.

Because the "media" (read: FOX/AM radio) made such a big deal over terrorists and al-Qaida being a threat to national security between 2001-2009. The group in northern Mali are affiliated with al-Qaida. But, that does not seem to matter now, since gas/oil are threatened. I guess because it is an American media (FOX/AM radio) thing.
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Mortyman
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 9:38 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
Algeria, Russia and some other countries on the other hand prioritise eliminating the terrorists.

and new ones will most likely arise unfortunetly ....
 
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 1:02 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 44):

Because the "media" (read: FOX/AM radio) made such a big deal over terrorists and al-Qaida being a threat to national security between 2001-2009. The group in northern Mali are affiliated with al-Qaida. But, that does not seem to matter now, since gas/oil are threatened. I guess because it is an American media (FOX/AM radio) thing.

But again (and I hate to defend FOX here) is that not actually understandable where American hostages are directly threatened?
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rfields5421
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 2:59 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 41):
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 38):Masked Brigade fighters came from Libya. It would be a sad irony if they were armed with weapons supplied by the west to overthrow Gaddafi.

As far as I'm aware they were indeed. Mercenaries hired by the rebels and presumedly assisted by the west, who now have moved onto Mali. Apparently this is one of the reasons they've been so effective, battle hardened mercenaries with new weapons against the tiny Malian army.

Also remember that many tons of high quality weapons of the Gaddafi secret police and military units were 'liberated' by such groups. Probably more total weapons and ammunition came from the fallen regime in Libya than supplied from the west.
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:00 pm

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 45):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
Algeria, Russia and some other countries on the other hand prioritise eliminating the terrorists.

and new ones will most likely arise unfortunetly ....

The more we keep meddling in other countries business the more this will go on.

More dead in Algeria according to RT

Seven hostages, 11 kidnappers killed during ‘final assault’ on Algerian gas plant – state news
The 'final assault' by Algerian troops on a gas plant seized by militants has resulted in the deaths of seven hostages and 11 kidnappers. The militants reportedly summarily executed their captives as troops tried to free them.
"It is over now, the assault is over, and the military are inside the plant clearing it of mines," Reuters quoted a local source as saying.

more:
http://rt.com/news/mali-militants-siege-algeria-300/

Not over. It will happen again for some other reason iin some other country until we leave them alone and decide to mind our own business at home.
We've got enough to rectify within our own borders.

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Aesma
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RE: Algerian Hostage Crisis Ends In Deaths

Sat Jan 19, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 48):
Not over. It will happen again for some other reason iin some other country until we leave them alone and decide to mind our own business at home.

You mean if we leave the peaceful majority in the hands of the radicals ? That worked so well in Afghanistan, and indeed Mali, not to mention Somalia, Rwanda, etc.
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