itsjustme
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Shooting At Houston TX College

Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:39 pm

Details sketchy but reports are at least one shooter and one victim thus far. 1350 ET.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/01/22...ported-at-texas-college/?hpt=hp_t1
 
itsjustme
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:51 pm

Four vics transported, one in critical condition. One person in custody. LE searching the campus for another suspect. Early speculation is it may be a "gang-related" incident.
 
flymia
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:13 am

If this didnt happen at a college and instead on a street corner, supermarket, home etc.. It wouldn't be news and only local Houston news would report it. Nothing to see here. It's like how after the Jet Blue emergency landing at LAX every minor emergency landing was shot live with helicopters for 3 months.

Anyway it will be nice when we can have a discussion about the actual reasons for the VIOLENCE instead of the tools being used. Inadequate education and lack of good role models are two of the biggest reasons in my opinion.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
TheCommodore
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:30 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
Inadequate education and lack of good role models are two of the biggest reasons in my opinion.

Both of which you are struggling with in America, (as are many other countries too) so, until there is an intensive education campaign, some sort of compulsory mental health check, and better "roll models" in society, something has to happen don't you think ?

America cant go on being prepared to lose up to 900 lives a month    and be complacent with that can you ?
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
itsjustme
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting flymia (Reply 10):
If this didnt happen at a college and instead on a street corner, supermarket, home etc.. It wouldn't be news and only local Houston news would report it

Agreed. And doesn't that speak volumes about how callous we've become in the U.S. to shootings? Shootings with multiple victims, no less:
CNN Tip Line Operator: "CNN Tip Line, what are you reporting? What? Three people shot? And you say this didn't happen at a school, college, or university? OK, thank you but we're not interested".
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 6:15 am

Oh great, another gun thread...

Oh great, another reason for another gun thread...

Meanwhile in NM, a teenager kills his whole family http://abcnews.go.com/US/mexico-teen...oot-walmart-cops/story?id=18284667

My opinion is unchanged. These poor kids clearly need help. Those around them need help / education identifying tell-tale signs. But this is going to take generations to fix.

Meanwhile, do not have a .22 rifle and other weapons easily accessible in a closet in a house full of kids!!! This is the sort of gun control that owners need to work on. That does not mean banning guns, but being responsible for them and if there are too many incidents where this is proven not to be the case, then maybe the government does have to step in to police you if you are unable to police yourselves. Like road blocks for DUI's or speed traps I guess.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 1):
Early speculation is it may be a "gang-related" incident.

As to the incident in question, this is never going to go away if indeed gang related. Just seems bizarre to me that pulling out a gun is an OK way to resolve a dispute, but if criminals want to shoot each other, that is OK with me I guess as long as innocent bystanders are not affected, which unfortunately sometimes seems to be the case. Sadly no laws passed or restricting the law abiding can really change this, I have come to the conclusion that US society has made their bed and now they have to sleep in it.

There has been a concerning increase in gun violence in YVR in recent weeks - all gang related - but I sure hope this trend does not creep up here.
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wilco737
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:20 am

Guys,

Stick to the topic, don't make it another gun thread and stop composing harsh and disrespecting posts!

If this behavior continues, gun threads will be banned completely in the future. Discuss the topic and nothing else and post in a civilized and respectful way. We won't tolerate this anymore.

Thanks.

wilco737
  
 
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 7:31 pm

At this campus one would almost expect something like this to happen. Lots of gang bangers and poor minorities attend this school. So you mix a bunch of these that are 19-24 years old and look what happens.

I think a lot of this is cause by "failure to communicate" instead of arguing something out like we used to do years ago, kids these days just shoot each other. I don't think a lot of them realize that once you're dead, it's permanent.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 2):

I wonder how many more of these will have to happen before gun nutters understand need for gun regulations.

Jumping to conclusions a bit fast, no? What regulation do you think would have prevented this incident?

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 5):
My opinion is unchanged. These poor kids clearly need help. Those around them need help / education identifying tell-tale signs. But this is going to take generations to fix.

Indoctrination already taking place.

5-year old girl suspended for 10 days for attacking fellow children with soap bubbles.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/21/us/pen...irl-suspended/index.html?hpt=us_c2

2 6-year olds suspended for pointing fingers at each other and saying 'bang'.

http://www.myeasternshoremd.com/news...6-5da5-11e2-a2a7-0019bb2963f4.html

So playing Cops and Robbers is now basically illegal.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
What regulation do you think would have prevented this incident?

Basically anything really Dreadnaught.

The convoluted laws in different states, appears the be VERY complex and difficult to understand to say the least, and certainly open to "interpretation"

A universal law/s, covering the entire US would make life easier, not only for police and authorities, but also for gun owners too.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
So playing Cops and Robbers is now basically illegal.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
2 6-year olds suspended for pointing fingers at each other and saying 'bang'.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
5-year old girl suspended for 10 days for attacking fellow children with soap bubbles.

Sad, the innocence of youth, but this is what it has turned into.
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Basically anything really Dreadnaught.

The convoluted laws in different states, appears the be VERY complex and difficult to understand to say the least, and certainly open to "interpretation"

A universal law/s, covering the entire US would make life easier, not only for police and authorities, but also for gun owners too.

Please be specific. Which one or two regulations would have prevented the incident? My comment was aimed at a post (since deleted) who immediately said that gun regulations would have prevented it. My question: Which one?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 9):
Sad, the innocence of youth, but this is what it has turned into.

I presume you mean the Salem Witch Trial mentality of the school administrators.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
My question: Which one?

I never said I had the specific answer to this problem, just stating, that along with others here, something in regards to more stringent regulation/s needs to happen in order to try and stop this from happening again don't you think ?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I presume you mean the Salem Witch Trial mentality of the school administrators.

Not really. Just the paranoia that has now crept into the gun control debate, and how people live with guns in society.

This is a by product of the current situation, where people are no longer thinking rationally.

[Edited 2013-01-23 12:52:49]
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:03 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
I never said I had the specific answer to this problem, just stating, that along with others here, something in regards to more stringent regulation/s needs to happen in order to try and stop this from happening again don't you think ?

Unless someone can come up with a rational regulation or law that would have stopped this event, I have to say no.

Already gun related laws and regulations - of which there are a huge number probably enough to fill several volumes, have not stopped anything - and I would guess that the bulk of them were probably passed in the aftermath of some tragedy.

Do not mistake demands for "action" and some random set of restrictions and regulations for anything that will actually help. It's politicians and special interest posing and electioneering.

Legislative masturbation, I call it.

If someone can propose a regulation, or a set of regulation, that we can say with a high degree of confidence that it would have prevented this event, or Sandy Hill, I would be more than happy to consider it. But throwing a few more regulations up just to show "action" - hell no.
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 2):
If this didnt happen at a college and instead on a street corner, supermarket, home etc.. It wouldn't be news and only local Houston news would report it.

And you find it strange that parents are more sensitized to issues relating to students?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Unless someone can come up with a rational regulation or law that would have stopped this event, I have to say no.

Updated article:

Quote:

Late Tuesday night, authorities said 22-year-old Carlton Berry was a shooter. Berry, who remained hospitalized, has been charged with aggravated assault.

Ref: http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/22/justic.../texas-college-shooting/index.html

It might be helpful to be able to trace this gun's history to see if it could have been kept out of his hands, but NRA has been doing all it can to block such things.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Already gun related laws and regulations - of which there are a huge number probably enough to fill several volumes, have not stopped anything

In the US gun laws are lax, but not in Europe, where their gun murder rate is a pittance compared to ours, so this issue really is not the number of laws but the scope of the laws.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:40 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
I have to say no.

So I gather then, you are willing to put up with the status quo.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Already gun related laws and regulations - of which there are a huge number probably enough to fill several volumes, have not stopped anything - and I would guess that the bulk of them were probably passed in the aftermath of some tragedy.

No argument there.

As I said in (reply9) the present gun laws are too complex and vary to much between states (from what Ive read on previous gun threads) so the system needs to be simplified

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Do not mistake demands for "action" and some random set of restrictions and regulations for anything that will actually help. It's politicians and special interest posing and electioneering.

At the end of the day, these are the people we elect into Government, and that being said, makes them the ONLY ones who can change things, so of course they are going to react, and so they should, otherwise nothing would ever change.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
If someone can propose a regulation, or a set of regulation, that we can say with a high degree of confidence that it would have prevented this event, or Sandy Hill, I would be more than happy to consider it. But throwing a few more regulations up just to show "action" - hell no.

Other countries seem to manage with gun regulations and laws, with far less uproar than you hear coming from the US.
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cmf
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
I presume you mean the Salem Witch Trial mentality of the school administrators.

Don't blame those forced to enact the zero tolerance nonsense.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
If someone can propose a regulation, or a set of regulation, that we can say with a high degree of confidence that it would have prevented this event, or Sandy Hill, I would be more than happy to consider it.

Don't know the source of the weapon in this case but Newtown would have been prevented if weapons were stored so that only the owner has access.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
In the US gun laws are lax, but not in Europe, where their gun murder rate is a pittance compared to ours, so this issue really is not the number of laws but the scope of the laws.
Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 14):
Other countries seem to manage with gun regulations and laws, with far less uproar than you hear coming from the US.

Don't compare the US with most other countries so easily. Europe has a very long history of restricting the ownership of weapons - can't have the peasants storming the palace every other week. The US is a nation born when the peasants literally armed themselves and threw out the noblemen who thought they had a god-given right to rule. Secondly, our expansion through the - often lawless - west was largely possible thanks to guns, to defend yourself against everything from wild animals, thieves, natives (oops), rivals, and anything else. In our culture, those honest, hardworking people who tamed the land and frequently had to defend it (because the only lawman nearby was maybe a day's ride away) are the iconic, quintessential American. John Wayne, if you will. I have travelled much and cannot think of any other countries that have such a cultural base of people who stand on their own two feet and can defend themselves - including from despotic governments.

Many people believe that it has been the mission of the left to destroy that culture, and in order to ensure "security", you must eliminate this culture of armed independence - which the NRA partly represents.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Ken777
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:00 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

Think Old Ben was talking about Slavery?
 
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 15):
Don't know the source of the weapon in this case but Newtown would have been prevented if weapons were stored so that only the owner has access.

That is true enough - but the same restriction would have prevented the 15-year old last week from picking up his dad's gun, defending his home and his little sister, while their parents were out.

http://nation.foxnews.com/crime/2013...lars-shoots-one-them-fathers-ar-15

Are you willing to effectively disarm those people who live in a home where the "Man of the House" might own a gun, but if he is out, then you are out of luck?

Don't get me wrong - I don't reject your argument out of hand. It's a debate worth having. But you can't propose such a regulation without looking at the possible negative consequences - something the left has always had a profound, philosophical difficulty doing.
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Revelation
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:08 pm

I understand the different traditions, and am not sure how that relates to the topic which is gun crime. What is more topical is that we have terrible levels of gun crime, they don't. We can't undo our past, but shouldn't we strive to improve our future?

To focus on the topic, I said:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):

It might be helpful to be able to trace this gun's history to see if it could have been kept out of his hands, but NRA has been doing all it can to block such things.

How would registering a gun be giving up an essential liberty?
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cmf
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Wed Jan 23, 2013 11:41 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Are you willing to effectively disarm those people who live in a home where the "Man of the House" might own a gun, but if he is out, then you are out of luck?

I'm not only willing, I absolutely think that anyone who isn't trained and of legal age should not have access to weapons without supervision. A few examples where it saved someone do not compensate for the many more times where it create problems, often deadly.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
But you can't propose such a regulation without looking at the possible negative consequences - something the left has always had a profound, philosophical difficulty doing.

Funny how NRA and the extreme right refuse to look at the negative consequences of not having gun control.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
How would registering a gun be giving up an essential liberty?

It doesn't, but that's not the point. The point is: By registering my weapons to the Feds, that automatically paints a big ass target on my back and on my door for all to see. This invites trouble and clearly gives criminals a reason to start breaking into homes and/or to cause bodily harm (ie: kill the law abiding gun owner in a fire fight). This is why I'm against gun registration.

But now, we are off topic......

Getting back on track with the topic here.... Lets not forget the type of shooting this is. This is NOT a mass shooting. This is just a shooting that started out with a fight that ended badly. This shooting was not premeditated....it wasn't planned.

This has nothing to do with Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech nor Columbine.....not even remotely related nor similar. Just thought I'd make that point well known here just in case some users don't know the difference.
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cmf
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 12:58 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
Lets not forget the type of shooting this is. This is NOT a mass shooting. This is just a shooting that started out with a fight that ended badly. This shooting was not premeditated....it wasn't planned.

"just a shooting that started out with a fight
...
was not premeditated....it wasn't planned."

In other words. If it wasn't for that people routinely carry, for "self defense", this would not have been a shooting. Just as many of the 1,200 or so killed since Newtown.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
ALTF4
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:06 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 22):
In other words. If it wasn't for that people routinely carry, for "self defense", this would not have been a shooting. Just as many of the 1,200 or so killed since Newtown.

I'm not sure I have ever seen anybody imply a fist-fight is a good thing.

Shouldn't we also address the issues that cause these altercations to begin with?

[Edited 2013-01-23 17:07:51]
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Aesma
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:14 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
I'm not sure I have ever seen anybody imply a fist-fight is a good thing.

I can imply it if you want. In fact I got into several during my school years. Fortunately I had no access to guns. I had/ve a recurve bow though, but you don't carry that easily nor discreetly.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:58 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 20):
A few examples where it saved someone do not compensate for the many more times where it create problems, often deadly.

Do you have any stats about that?

How would you even get statistics about it. If someone seemed threatening and I ended up pulling a gun on him, and he runs away, odds are that I would not see any need to report it, unless shots were actually fired. The number of situations where having a gun for self-defense prevented a crime is impossible to count, because they would not be reported, mostly.

Quoting cmf (Reply 22):
In other words. If it wasn't for that people routinely carry, for "self defense", this would not have been a shooting. Just as many of the 1,200 or so killed since Newtown.

I'd bet you dollars to donuts that the shooter in this case did not have a CCP.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 3:22 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 22):
In other words. If it wasn't for that people routinely carry, for "self defense", this would not have been a shooting. Just as many of the 1,200 or so killed since Newtown.

Um, *bleep* no! Please don't twist my words. That's NOT what I meant, genius.

Try again!

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Revelation
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:12 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
The point is: By registering my weapons to the Feds, that automatically paints a big ass target on my back and on my door for all to see.

Such a registry need not be public, it could/should only be available to law enforcement. I can't look up stranger's license plate, for instance.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
This invites trouble and clearly gives criminals a reason to start breaking into homes and/or to cause bodily harm (ie: kill the law abiding gun owner in a fire fight).

I'm not sure why a criminal who knows you have a gun would chose to face a gun battle with you rather than rob someone who isn't armed, and again, the registry need not be public, so they wouldn't know, just like the present.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
This has nothing to do with Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech nor Columbine.....not even remotely related nor similar.

It does point out the NRA position that schools should be heavily armed camps, so instead of one shooting victim at this college we could have many more if everyone took out their pieces and started shooting.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:18 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
Such a registry need not be public, it could/should only be available to law enforcement. I can't look up stranger's license plate, for instance.

I changed my position recently to be against registration unless it's very very clear that the information can never become public. Unbelievably, some people on here think it should be public and don't see it as a security risk...

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
I'm not sure why a criminal who knows you have a gun would chose to face a gun battle with you rather than rob someone who isn't armed, and again, the registry need not be public, so they wouldn't know, just like the present.

I agree if it's just one handgun or something, but what if this guy is a class III weapons collector? I know a guy who has about 30 weapons, many of them fully automatic. (He's a cop btw.) A single gun is not much of a target, but a plethora of weapons becomes much more worth it. I don't see anyone barging in while the guy is at home, but what's to keep them from breaking in when he's at work? Granted, the weapons are in a safe but if you have a big enough treasure inside the safe, I can see people going to some pretty extreme measures to get in there...

Rather not let Joe Blow Public know how many weapons I or others have. Joe Blow Law Enforcement can (and should IMO) know, but not everyone (especially the newspaper that published the firearm owners in that NY county... not illegal but unethical IMO)
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Revelation
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:24 am

The registry should not be public to avoid this very kind of situation. Once that's done, then we should hope that your friend the cop is spending the right amount of money on gun vaults as he does on the guns instead of depending on half ass safeguards. He wouldn't want his fellow cops to be facing all those weapons, would he?
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ALTF4
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:39 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
I can imply it if you want. In fact I got into several during my school years. Fortunately I had no access to guns. I had/ve a recurve bow though, but you don't carry that easily nor discreetly.

See, that's what I don't understand. It simply doesn't cross my mind to punch somebody. Like, not even remotely. I haven't ever punched somebody. Just like it doesn't cross my mind to pull out my gun and shoot somebody. Or use my recurve bow to pin somebody to a tree.

Example: I was sitting in a parking lot the other day, finishing up a call before I went in to the supermarket. My car unlocks the driver's side door when it goes into park (I can change that, and will do so shortly). I'm sitting in my car, talking on my phone, leaning on the door sill, and my door opens and I nearly fall out because I'm leaning on it. Some guy mistook my car for his. He jumped back immediately. I didn't shoot him for it, or even reach for the gun in my concealed holster. I didn't punch him - even though I felt threatened at first and he, based on state law, actually did invade an extension of my home.

I don't comprehend how getting into a fist fight is a good thing. The fact that it is viewed as a good thing is, in my humble opinion that I know you will disagree with (which is not to say I'm right / you're wrong or I'm better than you for believing this), the root of the problem - we are ok with resorting to violence, and then expect people to put a lid on it and not escalate it to molten lead flying out of barrels.

I view my fists the same as I view my gun. I will first try to leave the scene, get away from what is going on, and won't use them until I feel threatened enough to take action to protect myself.
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:55 am

The shooter in this case got some kind of immediate karma action. He shot himself in the bum while he was trying to put the gun in his waistband after the shooting. Is that dumb, or is that dumb?
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:30 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 31):
The shooter in this case got some kind of immediate karma action. He shot himself in the bum while he was trying to put the gun in his waistband after the shooting. Is that dumb, or is that dumb?

Sounds like he has a future in the NFL

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AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:34 am

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
Such a registry need not be public, it could/should only be available to law enforcement

I agree with you, but that still doesn't assure me that it won't be made public. Until I get some guarantees that it won't be made public, I'll still be against it.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
I'm not sure why a criminal who knows you have a gun would chose to face a gun battle with you rather than rob someone who isn't armed, and again, the registry need not be public, so they wouldn't know, just like the present.

You know, criminals get their guns illegally in so many different ways including robbing them from law abiding gun owners homes. You know that, right? Straw purchases are not the only method for them. DeltaMD90 in reply 28 said it better than I could.

Quoting type-rated (Reply 31):
He shot himself in the bum while he was trying to put the gun in his waistband after the shooting.

Yup! Totally not a CCW holder nor a NRA Member for sure, that dumb crook!
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itsjustme
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:52 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 33):
Yup! Totally not a CCW holder nor a NRA Member for sure

Right. Because we all know that CCW holders and NRA members never have accidental firearm discharges.
  
 
Skydrol
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:23 am

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 34):
Right. Because we all know that CCW holders and NRA members never have accidental firearm discharges.

Or post pictures posing with their guns, their home, their gun cabinet(s), state how many guns they have at home, and provide their name, address, and telephone number for anyone with internet access.

What is the worry about registering with a government agency when there are folks foolish enough to do all of the above for the entire world to know?

... and then justify that it is illegally obtained (stolen) guns which end up being used in criminal activities or gang members settling arguments.




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cmf
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:54 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Do you have any stats about that?

Ahh, the mud throwing defense. Simple deduction from reports and articles.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
I'd bet you dollars to donuts that the shooter in this case did not have a CCP.

Do you think he carried for protection or not?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 26):
Um, *bleep* no! Please don't twist my words. That's NOT what I meant, genius.

Try again!

W. T. F?!?!?!

Why don't you enlighten us as to what you mean.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
It does point out the NRA position that schools should be heavily armed camps, so instead of one shooting victim at this college we could have many more if everyone took out their pieces and started shooting.

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 28):
I changed my position recently to be against registration unless it's very very clear that the information can never become public. Unbelievably, some people on here think it should be public and don't see it as a security risk...

I don't think it should be public, but for other reasons than security. I do find the security argument to be conflicting with the frequent argument that crime goes down if perps know they risk to be shoot. The Kennesaw is safer than Chicago argument.
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AirframeAS
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:12 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 34):
Because we all know that CCW holders and NRA members never have accidental firearm discharges.

I never said that. NRA Members and CCW holders don't carry their firearms around in their waistband like a thug does.

Quoting cmf (Reply 36):
Why don't you enlighten us as to what you mean.

Sure, glad you asked! My point was to know the difference between a premeditated mass shooting vs a random shooting that was not premeditated. They're not the same thing, thus, it cannot be compared to Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech or Columbine.

It was two guys getting into a fight, and ended in someone getting shot. That doesn't sound like a mass shooting to me.

And my words, like what you just did in reply 22, CMF, should not be twisted nor should you be putting words in other people's mouths. Maybe I'd you asked nicely about what I meant the first time around, you wouldn't be getting replies like this, Genius.
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:15 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 36):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):
Do you have any stats about that?

Ahh, the mud throwing defense. Simple deduction from reports and articles.

Asking for evidence is now mudslinging? I think your deductive skills are lacking.

Quoting cmf (Reply 36):
Do you think he carried for protection or not?

I think he was a gang member.

Quoting cmf (Reply 36):
I don't think it should be public, but for other reasons than security. I do find the security argument to be conflicting with the frequent argument that crime goes down if perps know they risk to be shoot. The Kennesaw is safer than Chicago argument.

I live in Kennesaw, and own 8 guns. (Only one is a handgun and none are "assault-type", BTW). None of them are registered with the local PD, as they were all bought out of state or inherited. So nobody breaking into my house can possibly have any intel of what's in here. Frankly, I don't trust the government to keep such information secret. I don't trust anyone, for that matter. In this information age, computers get hacked all the time.

And yes, the people around here are quite proud of how safe the area is compared to other other cities nearby.
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:25 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 33):
You know, criminals get their guns illegally in so many different ways including robbing them from law abiding gun owners homes. You know that, right?

Indeed, so now we're talking about the gun thief who is smart enough to use a registry to find a gun owner, but dumb enough to try to take the gun while the owner is home instead of waiting till the gun owner is not at home?

As earlier, we should be moving to 'smart guns' that use biometrics to make sure the only one using the gun will be the registered owner.

In any case, I think registry lookups should be for law enforcement only, for this very reason. I know this can be abused just like automobile registries, but you deal with it the same way: make it clear that anyone giving away this info is risking their career and freedom by doing so.
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Stealthz
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
It was two guys getting into a fight, and ended in someone getting shot. That doesn't sound like a mass shooting to me.

No it isn't a mass shooting but from what I read it is a disagreement that may have ended without harm(if not peacebly) except for the fact that the alleged shooter, after walking away(from witness reports) remembered he had a gun and returned to the scene and used it.
Seems to me would be better if the guy hadn't exercised his right to be armed!!
From what I read , he said he didn' want to be in a fight, didn't want to go to gaol... how much easier would that choice be for him if he didn't have a gun?
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windy95
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 1:49 pm

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 3):
America cant go on being prepared to lose up to 900 lives a month and be complacent with that can you ?

10,000 plus killed a year by drunk drivers. Where are all the threads for that? This is about "control", by the left.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 11):
I never said I had the specific answer to this problem, just stating, that along with others here, something in regards to more stringent regulation/s needs to happen in order to try and stop this from happening again don't you think ?

It is not about the guns. it is about the culture. That is what needs to be changed.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
but NRA has been doing all it can to block such things.

Which is what we pay them to do.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
but not in Europe, where their gun murder rate is a pittance compared to ours, so this issue really is not the number of laws but the scope of the laws

It is the culture. Where do a majority of these gun murders happen?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
Such a registry need not be public, it could/should only be available to law enforcement.

So we have the right to be armed to protect us against a tyrannical government and then you want us to give our info to that government.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
this college we could have many more if everyone took out their pieces and started shooting

This argument really get's old.

Quoting cmf (Reply 36):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 25):Do you have any stats about that?Ahh, the mud throwing defense. Simple deduction from reports and articles.

So the answer is no I guess.
 
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
10,000 plus killed a year by drunk drivers. Where are all the threads for that? This is about "control", by the left.

Nice NRA style tactic: change the topic as quickly as possible.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
It is not about the guns. it is about the culture. That is what needs to be changed.

I think the culture would change if guns weren't so easy to get and so easy to pass from hand to hand. Register the gun when you buy it and legally transfer it and report it when it's stolen, and life would be much better for law enforcement and for society at large.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
So we have the right to be armed to protect us against a tyrannical government and then you want us to give our info to that government.

Gun lovers can't have it both ways. Either the militia part is invisible/inoperative as Scalia has ruled and then the militia thing also is inoperative and we can/should ignore it, or it IS operative and it means militia and is interpreted in the context understood by the writers, i.e. a civilian branch of the army, and not for the joy of gun ownership or overthrowing the government or any other reason.

In any case, the government knowing you bear arms is not the same as the government preventing you from bearing arms. They know I have a home and a car and a dog too. I also have an attack cat who I am training to overthrow the tyrannical government, so please don't tell them about that.
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itsjustme
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:12 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
10,000 plus killed a year by drunk drivers. Where are all the threads for that? This is about "control", by the left.

I absolutely love it when those on the right and the NRA start grasping at straws in an attempt to try and prove a point. That indicates those of us who are obviously the clearer thinking in this debate are making strong advances in taking steps to stem the 30 people a day being killed by gunfire in the U.S.

That being said, in response to this ridiculous analogy, I will point out that several years ago, we recognized the escalation in drunk driving related deaths and we have been taking steps to address it. We cut in half, the legal blood alcohol content one can have in order to operate a motor vehicle (.15 to today's .08). With Federal grants, we have increased the frequency of our DUI patrols and DUI checkpoints. And some states, 15 to be exact, have mandated that those convicted of first offense DUI install an ignition interlock device on their vehicle(s) that require a breath sample proving a BAC of less than .04 in order for the car to start. The result of these actions has resulted in a 64% decrease in alcohol-related driving deaths. We recognized a serious problem and, through legislation, we have made significant strides in correcting it. We need to take the same approach with firearm-related deaths. Please take your lame attempt to shift the focus of our murder-by-gun problem in the U.S. to drunk driving deaths elsewhere.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
So we have the right to be armed to protect us against a tyrannical government and then you want us to give our info to that government.

Yep. And here's just one of many reasons why: How else is the government supposed to track those who legally own a firearm but have since been adjudicated as mentally ill, or have been convicted of a felony, or have had a restraining order filed against them?

[Edited 2013-01-24 08:15:56]
 
cmf
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 37):
Sure, glad you asked! My point was to know the difference between a premeditated mass shooting vs a random shooting that was not premeditated. They're not the same thing, thus, it cannot be compared to Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech or Columbine.

It was two guys getting into a fight, and ended in someone getting shot. That doesn't sound like a mass shooting to me.

And my words, like what you just did in reply 22, CMF, should not be twisted nor should you be putting words in other people's mouths. Maybe I'd you asked nicely about what I meant the first time around, you wouldn't be getting replies like this, Genius.

I fully agree that premeditated is different from not premeditated. In the later case you only have access to what you have on you at the time. Thus, if he had not been carrying it would not have been a gun fight.

Genius...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
I think he was a gang member.

That may be. Do you think he carried for self defense?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
I live in Kennesaw, and own 8 guns. (Only one is a handgun and none are "assault-type", BTW). None of them are registered with the local PD, as they were all bought out of state or inherited. So nobody breaking into my house can possibly have any intel of what's in here. Frankly, I don't trust the government to keep such information secret. I don't trust anyone, for that matter. In this information age, computers get hacked all the time.

But posting what you have on the internet is no problem...

Anyway, it would be much more interesting if you actually addressed the security inconsistency of the NRA/TP viewpoint. You know the one where at one moment they say - We are safer because criminals know we have guns in Kennesaw. And in next state - We can't let people know we have guns. That would make us targets.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
10,000 plus killed a year by drunk drivers. Where are all the threads for that? This is about "control", by the left.
itsjustme answered this very well.

It is amazing how the extreme right keep falling back to this flawed argument. I frequently see the police setting up stops to check for drunk driving. Imagine what would happen if they did it to check if people carrying guns had permits.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
So the answer is no I guess.

The answer is yes, and I provided the sources. Sadly it takes combining multiple reports so it can't be referenced with a simple link. It doesn't take a genius. But it takes understanding the fallacy of the drunk driver argument.
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windy95
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 43):
How else is the government supposed to track those who legally own a firearm but have since been adjudicated as mentally ill, or have been convicted of a felony, or have had a restraining order filed against them?

None of their business...They can find these things out when they are committed or convicted.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 43):
I absolutely love it when those on the right and the NRA start grasping at straws in an attempt to try and prove a point. That indicates those of us who are obviously the clearer thinking in this debate are making strong advances in taking steps to stem the 30 people a day being killed by gunfire in the U.S.

And I love it when the left tries to ignore death's by all other causes in order to make their case against legal gun owner's. Thirty people every die being murdered by gunfire? I thought murder was illegal?

Quoting cmf (Reply 44):
It is amazing how the extreme right keep falling back to this flawed argument.

It is amazing how yo keep calling people who want to keep their Constitutional rights extreme. You are tryng to take mine away so that make you the extreme one. The NRA is the most active and longest surviving civil rights group yet they are extreme. What a joke.

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 43):
We need to take the same approach with firearm-related deaths. Please take your lame attempt to shift the focus of our murder-by-gun problem in the U.S. to drunk driving deaths elsewhere.

Murder is the problem. Not murder by gun. Stop focusing on the gun. It is not the problem. Murder by DUI's you want to ignore but with a gun...Laser beem focus...  Wow! How about we focus on Murder's including those by gun, bat, knives, car's etc...By ignoring everything else you are making your argument the lame one.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 29):
The registry should not be public to avoid this very kind of situation. Once that's done, then we should hope that your friend the cop is spending the right amount of money on gun vaults as he does on the guns instead of depending on half ass safeguards. He wouldn't want his fellow cops to be facing all those weapons, would he?

It isn't "half assed" it was heavy duty, fire proof, and bolted to the floor of his house. That is not my point. If smart enough criminals found out about a stash (aka a lot) of really good weapons (vs a safe with a single, rusty shotgun) you might see that house as a target. They could overwhelm the guy in an ambush or something and nothing, not even the best safe, is thief proof. I saw a few guys in the fire department bust open an ATM (quite the feat) using nothing but a giant crowbar, a mallet, and raw strength. I'll tie it in with the next quote:

Quoting cmf (Reply 36):
I don't think it should be public, but for other reasons than security. I do find the security argument to be conflicting with the frequent argument that crime goes down if perps know they risk to be shoot. The Kennesaw is safer than Chicago argument.

I think it's a flawed argument anyway, no one can say more guns = safer or less safe. I think Chicago being a huge city with a lot of poverty has more to do with its crime than strict gun laws. That's not my point... as I said earlier, I don't think someone is more likely to break into a gun owner's house... I would think the opposite. But if Joe Criminal with ties to a gang or cartel knows that 100 Baker St has 30 automatics (from a legal, good collector) I could see them go through some ridiculous lengths to kill the guy and steal all those guns.

Not arguing against registration, just the goofy public/media knowing about it

Quoting Revelation (Reply 39):
As earlier, we should be moving to 'smart guns' that use biometrics to make sure the only one using the gun will be the registered owner.

Eh, I don't know about this. What is the crazy guy is the gun owner? What happens when you go to the range and hand the gun to your wife or friends? Do you have to touch the gun when you fire?

I'm not saying there aren't merits, I could see this happening with police weapons or something, but I see this as a bigger pain than gain, and there are many other good features that wouldn't cause so much inconvenience (and probably a pretty penny too)
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 7:48 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 45):
It is amazing how yo keep calling people who want to keep their Constitutional rights extreme.

Why, are you the member of a militia? If so, my guess is it must not be much of a militia, since I'd imagine they'd already be marching on Washington, based on NRA attitudes. Either that, or the idea of a militia or fighting the tyrannical government is all nonsense... could that be?   
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Mir
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:11 pm

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
The point is: By registering my weapons to the Feds, that automatically paints a big ass target on my back and on my door for all to see.

It really doesn't. Nobody has to know.

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 23):
I'm not sure I have ever seen anybody imply a fist-fight is a good thing.

On its own, no. As an alternative to a gunfight, that's another matter. Then it's a very good thing.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 33):
Until I get some guarantees that it won't be made public, I'll still be against it.

You'll never get an absolute guarantee. But you rarely, if ever, hear of a security breach in government data - more often it's private companies that have those problems. So I have no problem trusting the government with that information.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 41):
So we have the right to be armed to protect us against a tyrannical government and then you want us to give our info to that government.

Yes. Because what's more likely: the government trying to take your guns, or criminals selling guns to other criminals and getting away with it because there's no means of figuring out how those guns got to crime scenes? People are getting killed on a regular basis because we don't have the means of putting gun traffickers in prison, and yet you'd claim we can't do a thing about it because of some strange paranoia that the government is coming for you.

I'd imagine that you would be against a database of people with mental illnesses as well?

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itsjustme
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RE: Shooting At Houston TX College

Thu Jan 24, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 45):
None of their business...They can find these things out when they are committed or convicted.

Ummm, without some sort of formal registration process in place, how do you purpose we "find these things out when they are committed or convicted"? I guess we could ask them. "Excuse me, Mr. Felon, do you have any firearms at home? No? Oh, OK, thanks". Or, I guess anytime someone is convicted of a felony, we could execute search warrants on their residence, their vehicles, and their place of business. Yeah, that makes much more sense then having a database we can check in a matter of seconds to see if there's any record of a newly convicted felon making any firearms purchases.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 45):

And I love it when the left tries to ignore death's by all other causes

Please see my Reply 43. You compared drunk driving deaths to gun deaths and I showed how no one "ignored" this Country's drunk driving problem. To the contrary. We recognized the problem, we addressed the problem, and as a result, tens of thousands of lives have been saved. Next?

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