itsjustme
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NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 8:43 pm

Yes, you read that right. Rape or incest VICTIMS in NM run the risk of being charged with a felony. That's if this Republican law maker in New Mexico has her way. Rep. Cathrynn Brown introduced House Bill 206 on Wednesday, which would make terminating a pregnancy caused by incest or rape a third-degree felony for “tampering with evidence,” which could carry three years in prison.

This is completely bizarre, even for a Republican. And that party wonders why they become an even bigger laughing stock as each day passes? A little over a month ago, their answer to our escalating number of gun deaths is to add more guns to the equation. Yesterday, they suggested charging victims of rape or incest with a 3-year felony. I can't wait to see what they come up with tomorrow!   

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/24/new_...r_rape_as_tampering_with_evidence/
 
cmf
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 10:56 pm

What's next. Bullets may not be removed if you're shoot? Knifes must remain if you're stabbed. What are the rules in case of food poisoning? What happens if you barf?

At least NRA gives her an "A"
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itsjustme
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 1):
Bullets may not be removed if you're shot?

And if they are, will the surgeon be charged as an accessory to a crime?
 
cmf
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:13 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 2):
And if they are, will the surgeon be charged as an accessory to a crime?

And the hospital  
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Aesma
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:21 pm

I wonder how many of these crazy politicians have adopted children born out of a rape. Or if they would be happy to have a children or grandchildren conceived that way.
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RussianJet
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:37 pm

It seems a pretty repulsive concept, yet I do note the bill says "....with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime". Surely the default position would be that the intention would be simply not to want to continue a pregnancy that was forced upon you by a rapist, and any intent solely to destroy evidence of the crime would be highly problematic to prove, to say the least.
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itsjustme
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Thu Jan 24, 2013 11:39 pm

In all seriousness, I find it appalling that anyone, much less an elected official would even think up something like this - not to mention actually attempt to get such a law passed. The word "certifiable" comes to mind with regard to Rep. Brown.
 
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Aesma
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:14 am

RussianJet : reading the bill it seems badly worded indeed, probably because it's just a stunt. But the idea is to ban the abortions I'm sure, using in this case the pretext of "destroying evidence".
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:18 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
It seems a pretty repulsive concept, yet I do note the bill says "....with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime". Surely the default position would be that the intention would be simply not to want to continue a pregnancy that was forced upon you by a rapist, and any intent solely to destroy evidence of the crime would be highly problematic to prove, to say the least.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 7):
"destroying evidence"

Terminate the pregnancy and keep a tissue sample just in case the state wants to confirm that the father was indeed the rapist, or whatever else they would want to keep "evidence" for. Problem solved. I can accept "pro-life" views, but keeping a baby because it is evidence sounds like a cruel joke to me.
 
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:45 am

Quoting lewis (Reply 8):
but keeping a baby because it is evidence sounds like a cruel joke to me

Not a joke. Just cruel. Sick and cruel.
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Dreadnought
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):

It seems a pretty repulsive concept, yet I do note the bill says "....with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime".

Bingo.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
Surely the default position would be that the intention would be simply not to want to continue a pregnancy that was forced upon you by a rapist, and any intent solely to destroy evidence of the crime would be highly problematic to prove, to say the least.

It appears the law is meant to deter (in some small way) the father (incest perpetrator) from taking the victim to get an abortion, which would serve to protect him.

Once again a typical attempt at showing all Republicans as nuts. You can't just have an honest debate, can you - you just want to vilify and destroy those who disagree with you.
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N867DA
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Once again a typical attempt at showing all Republicans as nuts. You can't just have an honest debate, can you - you just want to vilify and destroy those who disagree with you.

Cut the crap. This is an attempt to make abortion less accessible. All Republicans aren't nuts, but this one sure seems like it.
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:53 am

I don't think women would have too hard a time get that abortion, since they'd have no way to prove whether the rape was legitimate or not.   
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:57 am

Quoting N867DA (Reply 11):

Cut the crap. This is an attempt to make abortion less accessible. All Republicans aren't nuts, but this one sure seems like it.

I happen to be pro-choice, but I find nothing wrong with the proposed law. Again, you are trying to invent an image which isn't there. Yes, it abortion will be less accessible - to the sickos dragging their kid to an abortion clinic to get rid of the evidence. Not for anyone else.
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itsjustme
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
dragging their kid to an abortion clinic to get rid of the evidence.

OK, I'll play. Assuming there is a state in the Nation that allows a parent to force their minor child to have their pregnancy terminated against their wishes , what's your spin, uh I mean take on the rape part of the bill? Is it there to stop the rapist from dragging his victim to the clinic to get rid of the evidence?

[Edited 2013-01-24 20:04:08]
 
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:40 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
You can't just have an honest debate, can you - you just want to vilify and destroy those who disagree with you.

In a perfect world, I would be willing to take the law at face value and accept that it is intended solely to deter abortions for the purpose of destroying evidence, but after Republican elected officials elsewhere have, among other things, passed laws to impose unnecessary hospital-like standards on abortion clinics that day surgery centers don't have to meet, I have serious doubts.

I would be far more comfortable if the law had one more line similar to "no person choosing to terminate their own pregnancy shall be subject to this act." I simply do not trust a zealous Republican district attorney won't choose to investigate every woman who has an abortion to make sure no evidence is destroyed. Investigation is no prosecution, but it is a hassle nevertheless, and a form of intimidation in this case.

And yes, I read the act, it is actually pretty short.
http://www.nmlegis.gov/Sessions/13%20Regular/bills/house/HB0206.html



[Edited 2013-01-24 20:47:15]
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Mir
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:24 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
It seems a pretty repulsive concept, yet I do note the bill says "....with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime". Surely the default position would be that the intention would be simply not to want to continue a pregnancy that was forced upon you by a rapist, and any intent solely to destroy evidence of the crime would be highly problematic to prove, to say the least.

That really depends on how you define "destroy evidence of the crime". If you're going to look at a child as "evidence of a crime", then just the intent to get an abortion could be seen as intent to destroy evidence. I would not put it past prosecutors to try and argue that.

This would be something we could all support if it just said "Tampering with evidence shall include compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion of a fetus that is the result of criminal sexual penetration or incest with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime", with no mention of procuring or facilitating. But they just had to put those words in there for some unknown reason, and in doing so put rape victims through more legal hassle.

Under this law, a rapist could argue that a DNA test of the child would prove that he is not the father (even though he was), and then use those grounds to argue that the mother tampered with evidence by getting an abortion. We shouldn't stand for that sort of crap.

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Tugger
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:48 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):

It seems a pretty repulsive concept, yet I do note the bill says "....with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime".

Bingo.

Ummm.... wouldn't that prevent a woman who has been raped (believes she may have been) from just going and getting an abortion? Quietly, on her own by her own desire? Technically the woman would be culpable under the law as it is written because she is intent on destroying that "evidence".

How do you avoid this?

This is probably a good way:

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 15):
"no person choosing to terminate their own pregnancy shall be subject to this act."

but will the bill's sponsors be willing to put such wording in writing?

Tugg
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:07 am

From the link the bill is a stunt that has no chance in hell since the house is Democrat, so I stick by my idea, it's just poorly written.

And I'd argue that a rapist that gets an abortion for his victim is actually doing something right for a change.
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:19 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 10):
Once again a typical attempt at showing all Republicans as nuts. You can't just have an honest debate, can you - you just want to vilify and destroy those who disagree with you.

Dreadnought, once again, you hit the nail right on the head !

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
I happen to be pro-choice, but I find nothing wrong with the proposed law. Again, you are trying to invent an image which isn't there. Yes, it abortion will be less accessible - to the sickos dragging their kid to an abortion clinic to get rid of the evidence. Not for anyone else.

I haven't met Rep. Brown, and never even heard of her before, so I really can't say what I think of her for authoring this bill; however, I think the above reply is very likely to be the reason behind it.

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
This is completely bizarre, even for a Republican.

"Even for a Republican"? That almost sounds like he thinks there's something wrong with Republicans !

( Because they don't agree with him )

Charley
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:48 am

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
incest VICTIMS

How is someone a victim of incest? If the sex is not consensual it is rape, whether the perpetrator was a family member or a complete stranger. If the sex was consensual it might be an incest but there are no victims involved.
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:22 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Reply 14):
OK, I'll play. Assuming there is a state in the Nation that allows a parent to force their minor child to have their pregnancy terminated against their wishes , what's your spin, uh I mean take on the rape part of the bill? Is it there to stop the rapist from dragging his victim to the clinic to get rid of the evidence?

You don't think that a father/stepfather who managed to bully his way into a child's panties can't tell her to "walk in that clinic and take care of things, smile and if you mention me you die."?

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 15):
I would be far more comfortable if the law had one more line similar to "no person choosing to terminate their own pregnancy shall be subject to this act."

Sometimes they are the perpetrator. Relatively rare but still happens.

Why would it make you more comfortable? It's not as if the staff at the clinic is going to police this.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 20):

How is someone a victim of incest? If the sex is not consensual it is rape, whether the perpetrator was a family member or a complete stranger. If the sex was consensual it might be an incest but there are no victims involved.

Ever heard of statutory rape?
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:09 pm

Quoting itsjustme (Thread starter):
Rep. Cathrynn Brown introduced House Bill 206 on Wednesday, which would make terminating a pregnancy caused by incest or rape a third-degree felony for %u201Ctampering with evidence,%u201D which could carry three years in prison.

She is advancing an anti-abortion agenda and doing it disengenuously. This misgudied and ill informed person apparently believes you have to have a baby for evidence of a rape or incest. They have rape kits and DNA testing for that. It is a bill that will never see the light of day. She is about as dumb as the politician that said that raped women can't get pregnant. In fact she is contrdicting him.
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:33 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
I happen to be pro-choice, but I find nothing wrong with the proposed law. Again, you are trying to invent an image which isn't there. Yes, it abortion will be less accessible - to the sickos dragging their kid to an abortion clinic to get rid of the evidence. Not for anyone else.

The mere act of getting the abortion is evidence enough. An embryo does not provide paternal DNA. The earliest that reliable DNA can be extracted is 10 weeks. I think that it is absurd to even suggest that this law is to protect women. That one sentence leaves the door too wide open for it to be used in a manner inconsistent with that. Personally I am skeptical with any new abortion legislation as all it does is restrict an already severely restricted area of women's rights.
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:36 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
She is advancing an anti-abortion agenda and doing it disengenuously. This misgudied and ill informed person apparently believes you have to have a baby for evidence of a rape or incest.

Whaaaaat? So a law saying that it is illegal to use a gun to rob a store makes it necessary to have a gun for the event to be classified as a robbery? Logical disconnect.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
They have rape kits and DNA testing for that.

And if there is no rape kit done (very likely) and the abortion clinic does not keep a tissue sample of all abortions it performs?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 22):
She is about as dumb as the politician that said that raped women can't get pregnant. In fact she is contrdicting him.

Stop being so vile and try to make arguments that make sense.
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Tugger
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
Logical disconnect.

Speaking of disconnect, you did not answer my question:

Quoting tugger (Reply 17):
Ummm.... wouldn't that prevent a woman who has been raped (believes she may have been) from just going and getting an abortion? Quietly, on her own by her own desire? Technically the woman would be culpable under the law as it is written because she is intent on destroying that "evidence".

How do you avoid this?

For whatever the myriad of reasons personally, not every woman wants to report a rape. Should they be forced/required to?

Tugg
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 25):
Speaking of disconnect, you did not answer my question:

Quoting tugger (Reply 17):
Ummm.... wouldn't that prevent a woman who has been raped (believes she may have been) from just going and getting an abortion? Quietly, on her own by her own desire?

If she simply does not want the baby, I see it as something entirely different.

The proposed law specifies that it only applies to abortions made with the specific intent of hiding evidence of incest or rape. By our system, that means the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that.
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
The proposed law specifies that it only applies to abortions made with the specific intent of hiding evidence of incest or rape. By our system, that means the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that.

And so if a woman decides to terminate the pregnancy does that not leave open the possibility of being charged? Perhaps she doesn't want to deal with anything, perhaps she doesn't know if she was or not, does she need to clear it with authorities to make sure she is safe?

And what about the doctor? Is the doctor liable if they perform the procedure? What if the woman says "I don't know if I was raped or not, but I just want this done" must the doctor stop and say they can't do it because they cannot destroy evidence of what may be a crime?

Tugg
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casinterest
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
Whaaaaat? So a law saying that it is illegal to use a gun to rob a store makes it necessary to have a gun for the event to be classified as a robbery? Logical disconnect.

So you are agreeing then that a baby isn't a baby till it is born? And therefore has no rights?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
And if there is no rape kit done (very likely) and the abortion clinic does not keep a tissue sample of all abortions it performs?

So the mother gets a felony because of other people not doing their jobs?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 24):
Stop being so vile and try to make arguments that make sense.

Not being vile. Just pointing out the obvious about this person. My arguments make more sense than your argument about the Gun.
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Mir
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
The proposed law specifies that it only applies to abortions made with the specific intent of hiding evidence of incest or rape.

No, it says that it applies to abortions made with the intent of hiding evidence of incest or rape. Not specific intent, just general intent. There's a difference.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
By our system, that means the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that.

The child is evidence of a rape, and the woman sought to destroy the child. Therefore, the woman sought to destroy evidence of the rape.

I'm not saying that all prosecutors would take that tactic, but they could, and is there such a problem with women involved in incest and subsequent abortions that we should even let it be a possibility?

-Mir
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 28):
So you are agreeing then that a baby isn't a baby till it is born? And therefore has no rights?

To my knowledge, Dreadnought is not be a foe of "the woman's right to choose" and supports a woman's right to terminate a pregnancy, but with limits (16 weeks? 26 weeks?). That would imply that he comes down in the middle, that the woman has rights that supersede a fetus' but that at a certain point the baby is a viable living being and acquires certain rights to at least not be unnecessarily terminated. And I tend to agree with that.

I suspect much of the USA is similar.

Dreadnought, please forgive me if I put words in your mouth, I mean no disservice.

Tugg
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bhill
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Fri Jan 25, 2013 7:32 pm

Ahhh the machinations of doing end runs around Roe v. Wade and a woman's right to what she thinks is best for her uterus.

I sure hope this "legislator" does not play poker...one easy mark that.

And let's not even get into the social costs of raising these thousands of children concieved from rape or incest.

Does this include use of the "morning after pill?"
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:07 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Why would it make you more comfortable? It's not as if the staff at the clinic is going to police this.

I don't expect clinic staff to police the act, but it would make it clear that it isn't a disguised attempt to limit access to abortion by trying to intimidate both providers and patients.

That sentence would also prevent my "overzealous district attorney" scenario by taking away the act as legal cover for investigating every abortion for possible destruction of evidence.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
By our system, that means the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove that.

The act gives the prosecution the legal cover to investigate every abortion for possible destruction of evidence, though. As I wrote previously, investigation is not prosecution, but a clinic that thinks every procedure will be investigated may decide to stop providing abortion, an outcome that the author of the act would certainly not decry...
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:33 am

Quoting blueflyer (Reply 32):
That sentence would also prevent my "overzealous district attorney" scenario by taking away the act as legal cover for investigating every abortion for possible destruction of evidence.

I'm sorry but that sounds like a red herring. By that measure, almost any law can be abused, and thus should not be passed.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Mir
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 33):
By that measure, almost any law can be abused, and thus should not be passed.

If the potential abuse of the law is more serious than the behavior you're trying to ban, then you should not pass the law. I have a hard time believing that there is such a problem with incest followed by abortion to cover it up that we need to put all of those who get legitimate abortions at risk of prosecution.

-Mir
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Dreadnought
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:10 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 34):
If the potential abuse of the law is more serious than the behavior you're trying to ban

I think Incest, rape, and hiding the evidence are pretty damned serious. But that's just me - you are free to disagree.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
Mir
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
I think Incest, rape, and hiding the evidence are pretty damned serious. But that's just me - you are free to disagree.

I think rape is pretty damn serious, as is hiding the evidence of it. And you'll note that I have no problem with the part of the law that says coercing someone to get an abortion is a crime.

The only part I take issue with is the part about getting an abortion being equal to hiding the evidence. This is only going to come up during incest, and the simple fact of the matter is that incest is only a serious problem because the inbreeding is bad for the child's health - if there's no child because there was an abortion, then you don't have that problem. And while that doesn't make incest okay, it does mean that you shouldn't be going after it to such an extent that you risk widespread collateral damage the way this bill does.

-Mir
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Tugger
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:21 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 35):
I think Incest, rape, and hiding the evidence are pretty damned serious. But that's just me - you are free to disagree.

Then I disagree. At least with the tact you are taking. It is already a standard element in law and there are many specific laws on the books that state "Incest, rape, and hiding the evidence are pretty damned serious". And so if that is what you are saying this law is adding, then it adds nothing

If this law is aimed at protecting people and not attacking them then it needs to be better written to allow adults to be adults and act like adults and make their free choices with their bodies.

Tugg
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:26 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):

I think rape is pretty damn serious, as is hiding the evidence of it. And you'll note that I have no problem with the part of the law that says coercing someone to get an abortion is a crime.

Glad we agree on that.

Quoting Mir (Reply 36):
the simple fact of the matter is that incest is only a serious problem because the inbreeding is bad for the child's health - if there's no child because there was an abortion, then you don't have that problem.

Oooo, you might want to rephrase that. Basically you are saying that if they use birth control, hey, why not?

As a parent, with a now-grown daughter, I know the power a man can have over his children. If a parent gets it into their head to have sex with their kid, it pretty much is certain to happen - children worship their parents, and will do whatever they say (at least up to their teen years - and often later). There is no question in my mind that any such situation would never be truly consensual - simply because of the parents' authority.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
itsjustme
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:07 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
As a parent, with a now-grown daughter, I know the power a man can have over his children. If a parent gets it into their head to have sex with their kid, it pretty much is certain to happen

As a seasoned law enforcement officer, you have me concerned. When you first came up with the idea the law was purposed "to stop a sicko from dragging their kid to an abortion clinic to get rid of the evidence" you got my attention. And now you're stating, quite matter of factly, "I know the power a man can have over his children. If a parent gets it into their head to have sex with their kid, it pretty much is certain to happen". Your comments are worrisome, to say the least.
 
Mir
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RE: NM Rape/Incest Victims Charged With A Felony?

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
Oooo, you might want to rephrase that. Basically you are saying that if they use birth control, hey, why not?

You didn't include the part where I said that doesn't make it okay. I'll never support two consenting adults engaging in incest even with birth control, but I do think the government has a lot better uses of its time and resources than to try and stop it from happening. Especially when it comes in the form of poorly-worded legislation that has the potential to have far broader consequences that negatively impact far more people.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
As a parent, with a now-grown daughter, I know the power a man can have over his children. If a parent gets it into their head to have sex with their kid, it pretty much is certain to happen - children worship their parents, and will do whatever they say (at least up to their teen years - and often later). There is no question in my mind that any such situation would never be truly consensual - simply because of the parents' authority.

Then it's not just incest, it's rape. Which is, and should remain, a crime.

-Mir
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