CaliAtenza
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Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:04 am

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=300848



Haniyeh says inaugural academy in Gaza Strip will prepare children as young as 12 years old for "liberating Palestine," establish Palestinian state "from the river to the sea"; more than 10,000 kids attend military parade.

(…)

He said that children in grades 7-9 could join the academy and graduate with a Diploma or Bachelor of Arts in military affairs.

Haniyeh was speaking during a ceremony in the Gaza Strip marking the birth of Prophet Mohamed. More than 10,000 schoolchildren attended the ceremony, which included a "military parade" by some of the teenagers...

Okay..I know Israel isn't a saint, but I'm sorry, Hamas is just training kids to be terrorists...
 
Superfly
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:49 am

I'm confused. Barack Hussein Obama said they were peaceful. I know he doesn't like when Americans cling to guns & religion. Does he feel the same about these 'peaceful' 'freedom fighters'? How tolerant are they of people of other religious beliefs or no religious beliefs at all? What is their opinion on gay rights and women's contraceptives? Are they waging a war against women?
Who should I believe?
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sfbdude
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:24 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if most of these kids were homeless orphans due to the attacks against them from the israeli terrorists
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:40 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
I know he doesn't like when Americans cling to guns & religion. Does he feel the same about these 'peaceful' 'freedom fighters'? How tolerant are they of people of other religious beliefs or no religious beliefs at all? What is their opinion on gay rights and women's contraceptives? Are they waging a war against women?

While I'm in the camp that's weary of the god'n'guns here in the states, yes, I think we need to be consistent about this. While I would support a two state solution WRT Israel & Palestine, I do not believe this means we should just give carte blanche to just any Palestinian "authority" than openly embraces terroristic policies. Especially when children are involved. I know this is nothing new with those guys, but this is simply begging for more trouble with the IDF.

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 2):
I wouldn't be surprised if most of these kids were homeless orphans due to the attacks against them from the israeli terrorists

Maybe so. But even if this were a case of Israel being a bad guy just because they feel like it (and I do not see that as the case), I cannot see how this justifies turning children into weapons. If they really were orphaned for that reason (or any really), I think they've already had a shitty enough life as it is. To me, this is no better than ten year old "soldiers" in Sub-saharan Africa being used to commit all manner of mayhem...
You Sir, are a very funny lady.
 
QFA380
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:46 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Barack Hussein Obama said they were peaceful.


Let me fix that for you:

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 2):

I wouldn't be surprised if most of these kids were homeless orphans due to the attacks defensive actions against them Hamas from the Israeli terrorists military defending their homeland.
 
Superfly
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:42 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
Let me fix that for you:



Thanks.
I get it.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 3):
While I'm in the camp that's weary of the god'n'guns here in the states, yes, I think we need to be consistent about this.



Glad you see that clinging to guns & religion can be a bad thing in the Middle East.
The the God'n'guns crowd in the US doesn't bother me at all. It's the guns & gangsters crowd that worries me. Having been held up at gun point myself by a low-lifes in the streets is my reason for being weary of them. I haven't had any run-ins with Bible-thumpers anywhere near as bad.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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casinterest
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:59 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
He said that children in grades 7-9 could join the academy and graduate with a Diploma or Bachelor of Arts in military affairs.

Hmmm,
What happens to the dropouts? Is there a way to get a GED?

This article makes your realize why peace is a very diffcult process over there. Israel make some mistakes itself, but this is rather overt terrorism .
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:43 pm

They should all just calm down. I don't honestly care why they are fighting or who is fighting who but they all just need to grow up and stop thinking that kicky fighty smashy punchy is all ok.

Fred
Image
 
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pvjin
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Okay..I know Israel isn't a saint, but I'm sorry, Hamas is just training kids to be terrorists...

Who said they will be terrorists? If they only shoot IDF soldiers their actions are just as justified and okay as in any other war. Israelis are the ones causing big majority of civilian deaths anyway, IDF actions do meet the definition of terrorism way better than what most of these Palestinians have been doing.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
Newark727
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 3:50 pm

You know what a great way to undermine this would be? Showing them how kids in the rest of the world have it. Sadly, the response from Israel and the rest of the world will probably isolate Gaza further, and validate both Hamas and Israeli hardliners.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Okay..I know Israel isn't a saint, but I'm sorry, Hamas is just training kids to be terrorists...

Go on Youtube, and look up Palestinian childrens television ( http://www.youtube.com/results?searc....16.16.0...0.0...1ac.1.vT1t0APclfI ). As long as shows like this continue to air, there won't be peace.

Marc
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 3):

No I agree with you...whichever government that is representing the Palestinian people can't be training terrorists on the side. Sub Saharan Africa hasn't open declared its child soldiers though..
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 8):

What is Isreal supposed to do.,not fight back against Hamas? Hamas is the one who was hiding rocket launchers in civilian areas and using human shields...
 
Superfly
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:06 pm

All these people need is a shotgun.


Signed Joe Biden.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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pvjin
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 6:10 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 12):
What is Israel supposed to do.,not fight back against Hamas? Hamas is the one who was hiding rocket launchers in civilian areas and using human shields...

Israel should give Palestinians their own independent state and also Palestinians should allow Israel to have their own areas. Both sides are at fault and should be flexible in negotiations.

Unfortunately both sides have these extremists which destroy the whole thing. Had Israel been more flexible and truly tried to finally get peace to this area I doubt Hamas would have gotten that much support, and on the other hand if Hamas wasn't so radical I believe also extremist views on Israeli side would be way less popular.

I think both sides should be forced to peace through military action if nothing else helps. Both Israel and Palestine would need some rational peace loving people into power instead of idiots running these areas right now. People who would be ready to forget the past, ignore extremist views and start negotiations for better future.

My point is simply that it's not like Palestinian side is full of terrorists and Israelis just rightfully trying to defend their land, both sides are at fault for living in the past.

But I guess too big percentage of people in both countries are too full of hate and stupidity to understand how pointless their fight is.

[Edited 2013-01-25 10:12:44]
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 14):
Unfortunately both sides have these extremists which destroy the whole thing. Had Israel been more flexible and truly tried to finally get peace to this area I doubt Hamas would have gotten that much support, and on the other hand if Hamas wasn't so radical I believe also extremist views on Israeli side would be way less popular.

Well Hamas is this radical, what are we going to do about it? I dont see them giving up their positions any time soon.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 14):
My point is simply that it's not like Palestinian side is full of terrorists and Israelis just rightfully trying to defend their land, both sides are at fault for living in the past.

well i agree with you on this, but right now, Hamas is in control of Gaza and gaining ground over in the West Bank...
 
Mir
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 15):
but right now, Hamas is in control of Gaza and gaining ground over in the West Bank...

Hamas' growth in the West Bank can be pinned on Israel. If Israel were actually treating the West Bank as a productive player in the peace process, then the people in Gaza would have something to look at as evidence that if they try and work with Israel, there will be progress. Instead, Israel keeps building settlements in the West Bank, contrary to every peace plan that's been put out. It's hard to blame those in the West Bank for thinking "well, the whole non-violent thing hasn't really helped us, maybe we need to try the Hamas strategy".

-Mir
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cmf
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 17):
The scum known as Palestinians are not interested in peace at all. Anyone who wants to challenge me on this is welcome to. I've been there five times. I've been through a terrorist attack. Can anyone here say the same thing?

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter.

If a few terrorist attacks means that no-one of that nationality or whatever classification you like to use means they are not interested in peace then there isn't many in the world who are interested in peace. It is not like there is a shortage of Israeli/Jewish terrorists.

Sadly I think your statements are more descriptive about your interest in peace between Israel and Palestine.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
NAV20
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:24 am

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Hamas is just training kids to be terrorists...

Personally I can't get over the 'double standard' that instantly applies whenever Israel/Palestine is discussed.

My own school had a cadet corps, in which we were 'trained' (and taken on the odd trip to Germany) on the (then reasonable) assumption that if we had to fight anyone, it would probably be the Russians and the Warsaw Pact. And the United States still has numerous military academies, which (in my day) worked on the same assumption. Was that 'training us to be terrorists'?

Palestine does not have conscription as far as I know - but Israel does, all fit men and women have to sign on for a minimum of two years' national service at age 18. Who do people think they are mainly trained to fight - and quite often sent to fight? The Turks, or the Saudi-Arabians?

My own view is that, back in 1947/8, the Palestinians were subjected to a monstrous injustice. The Western world should never have countenanced - leave alone encouraged and financed - the setting up of a religiously-intolerant state in their homeland. And the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, remain under constant and deadly attack on virtually a daily basis:-

http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/342032

But, of course, the Israeli Army aren't trained to be 'terrorists'............... 

[Edited 2013-01-25 17:33:17]
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Powerslide
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:57 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
back in 1947/8

Still living in the past I see. Move. On.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
But, of course, the Israeli Army aren't trained to be 'terrorists'............... 

A professional Army is not the same as an organization who's sole purpose is to cleanse the area "from the river to the sea" of Jews.

I'm actually glad the Palestinians are taking this route. This means that those kids/whomever are being trained in a semi-professional way, meaning they'll probably be wearing a uniform when they get shot by the IDF. At least they will die honourably, fighting - legally - under a military uniform and flag.
 
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pu
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:29 am

Quoting caliatenza (Thread starter):
Okay..I know Israel isn't a saint, but I'm sorry, Hamas is just training kids to be terrorists...

Last time I checked being in the IDF was mandatory for every Israeli and the Israelis kill about 5 times as many civilians as the Palestinains do. So how is what the Palestinains are doing any worse than what the Israelis are doing in terms of training their young? The use of the word "terrorist" is little more than an easy way to identify a partisan hoping to impugn their opponent with rhetoric - its a term mainly used to scare weak-minded followers whose opinion is decided first by others with a political agenda.



Pu
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 21):
I'm actually glad the Palestinians are taking this route. This means that those kids/whomever are being trained in a semi-professional way, meaning they'll probably be wearing a uniform when they get shot by the IDF. At least they will die honourably, fighting - legally - under a military uniform and flag

I doubt Hamas will do any of that, they dont care...

Quoting Pu (Reply 22):
Last time I checked being in the IDF was mandatory for every Israeli and the Israelis kill about 5 times as many civilians as the Palestinains do.

yes but the stated goal of Hamas is destruction of Israel...the IDF has never said we want to destroy the Palestinians. Moreover, Israel and the IDF are not indoctrinating their children with hate and violence, at least from what ive read and seen.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 20):
My own view is that, back in 1947/8, the Palestinians were subjected to a monstrous injustice. The Western world should never have countenanced - leave alone encouraged and financed - the setting up of a religiously-intolerant state in their homeland. And the Palestinians, particularly in the West Bank, remain under constant and deadly attack on virtually a daily basis:-

NAV20, it happened, its done. There is an Israel now and the Palestinian people..they both have to resolve it. We cant keep going back to 1947/48. We all cant hop in a time machine and change history. But, now with the Israeli elections, i am much more hopeful a deal will take place. It takes hardliners in Israel to make peace...
 
NAV20
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 21):
Still living in the past I see.
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 23):
NAV20, it happened, its done.

Disagree, guys - the process of forcible annexation of Palestinian land started in 1947/8, and it is still going on:-

"William Hague said yesterday that prospects for a two-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are almost dead as voters in Israel looked likely to return a hardline rightist government.

"The Foreign Secretary warned Israel that it was losing international support because it was expanding Jewish settlements in occupied territory.

"An independent Palestinian state alongside Israel has been the basis of the US-backed Middle East peace process for almost 20 years.

"But Mr Hague told MPs: ‘I hope that whatever Israeli government emerges will recognise that we are approaching the last chance to bring about such a solution.

'I condemn recent Israeli decisions to expand settlements.

'I speak regularly to Israeli leaders stressing our profound concern that Israel’s settlement policy is losing it the support of the international community and will make a two-state solution impossible.’


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...eneral-Election.html#ixzz2J2wmRHvG
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damirc
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 5:05 am

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 23):
yes but the stated goal of Hamas is destruction of Israel

Considering that the latest excursion into Gaza strengthened Hamas (unfortunately also in the West Bank) I do have the silly feeling that Israel actually wants Hamas to stay - they need someone to keep the conflict going - unfortunately some Palestinians have not figured out yet that they're being played. Fatah on the other hand is trying to deal with the situation with legalist instruments (the only smart way at this time, at least from my perspective) is losing support. I don't think it would take a lot for Israel to work towards Hamas losing popular support - cooperating with the Fatah would be a start. But as said - I don't believe that this is what Israel really wants.

And just for the sake of full disclosure on goals from both sides - the Likud's charter (mind you it's the current Israeli PM's Netanyahu's party) also states:

- "Jerusalem is the eternal, united capital of the State of Israel and only of Israel."

- "The Jordan Valley and the territories that dominate it shall be under Israeli sovereignty. The Jordan river will be the permanent eastern border of the State of Israel."

- "The government will insist that security areas essential to Israel's defense, including the western security area and the Jewish settlements, shall remain under Israeli rule."

So while technically allowing for an establishment of a Palestinian state it is doubtful where that Palestine could possibly be ... judging by Netanyahu's actions probably on Mars.

D.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:43 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 19):
Still living in the past I see. Move. On.

Whooooooa, sorry but the whole foundation of Israel today is that modern Israel/Westbank/Gaza was once (thousands of years ago) populated by Jews. If anyone is living in the past it is the Israelis.

Meanwhile in the present, Bibi keeps approving the construction of more settlements on the Arab side of the Green Line which is going to do wonders for the peace-process. Sigh.

Quoting Pu (Reply 20):
Last time I checked being in the IDF was mandatory for every Israeli and the Israelis kill about 5 times as many civilians as the Palestinains do. So how is what the Palestinains are doing any worse than what the Israelis are doing in terms of training their young?

And there was the incident of the Israeli school kids signing/writing messages on large Israeli munitions.
First to fly the 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE (2014-10-09, NZ103)
 
Powerslide
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting zkojq (Reply 24):
And there was the incident of the Israeli school kids signing/writing messages on large Israeli munitions.

Oh the horror!  
 
777way
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 25):

You bet, coming from a country that tries to show the world its some civilised, westernised democracy, maybe Hamas are right, after all they know you people better than us sitting far away from the scene.
 
PHX787
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 9:49 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
Signed Joe Biden.

Hey Fly, how's this for a crazy hypothesis- Biden and Barack Hussein Obama will take guns from responsible owners, such as myself, and give them to Hamas! Or drug cartels for that matter  
Quoting caliatenza (Reply 12):
What is Isreal supposed to do.,not fight back against Hamas? Hamas is the one who was hiding rocket launchers in civilian areas and using human shields...

Hamas= terrorism. End of the story there. There basically is no debate. They are an illegitimate government who threatens anyone with death should they go against their own beliefs. They execute those who go against them.

if that's not terrorism, I don't know what is. Honestly, any political system or party that threatens to steal or take away liberties from those whom they govern is just outright pathetic.

Quoting 777way (Reply 26):
You bet, coming from a country that tries to show the world its some civilised, westernised democracy, maybe Hamas are right, after all they know you people better than us sitting far away from the scene.

  
Terrorists are never right....especially fundamentalist terrorists.
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777way
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:03 pm

Are you Palestinian living in Gaza? have you even endured a fraction of what they have been through while living a cushy life in the US?
 
flyguy89
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 22):

Disagree, guys - the process of forcible annexation of Palestinian land started in 1947/8, and it is still going on:-

Who cares? Honestly, the world would be a much better place if the rest of the Middle East were like Israel (i.e. secular democracies with rule-of-law, religious tolerance, advanced industrialized economies...etc).

Quoting Pu (Reply 20):
and the Israelis kill about 5 times as many civilians as the Palestinains do.

Because apparently Hamas sees fit to place their military targets among such strategic locations as schools and hospitals.

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 21):
Quoting Pu (Reply 22):
Last time I checked being in the IDF was mandatory for every Israeli and the Israelis kill about 5 times as many civilians as the Palestinains do.

yes but the stated goal of Hamas is destruction of Israel...the IDF has never said we want to destroy the Palestinians. Moreover, Israel and the IDF are not indoctrinating their children with hate and violence, at least from what ive read and seen.

  

And you're right, they do not. Additionally, it's not very difficult to gain exemption from the mandatory military service.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
My own school had a cadet corps, in which we were 'trained'

At 7 years old? I don't think so.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 18):
the setting up of a religiously-intolerant state in their homeland.

  
You've never been to Israel, have you? But sure, keep believing whatever falsities you delude yourself with, they're so religiously intolerant that Saudis, Jordanians, Kuwaitis, Lebanese...etc are allowed to pass freely through Israel while in many of these same countries you aren't allowed in for simply having an Israeli stamp on your passport. Oh yes, and the Israelis are so intolerant that they have legislation and court systems which regularly protect the rights of Muslims living in Israel  
 
777way
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting caliatenza (Reply 21):
Moreover, Israel and the IDF are not indoctrinating their children with hate and violence, at least from what ive read and seen.

To which the answr is.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 24):
And there was the incident of the Israeli school kids signing/writing messages on large Israeli munitions.
 
Cadet985
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:23 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
as a productive player in the peace process

You want to talk about peace? My first full day in Israel, my friend took me to Rachel's Tomb, which lies just outside Jerusalem, near Bethlehem. For some strange reason, a group of Palestinians took it upon themselves to perch at the top of a wall overlooking the tomb and throw rocks and Molotov Cocktails at anyone visiting the tomb. Had my friend and I been walking just a little bit faster, we would have both been hit with the cocktails. The IDF had to get us into a safe area until we could safely exit the area.

Palestinians are not interested in peace at all. Anyone who wants to challenge me on this is welcome to. I've been there five times. I've been through a terrorist attack. Can anyone here say the same thing?

Marc
 
Powerslide
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 28):
Are you Palestinian living in Gaza? have you even endured a fraction of what they have been through while living a cushy life in the US?

The Palestinian situation is no fault but their own. What kind of message do they send to Israel with these kid terrorist training camps?

From the article:

Quote:
Hamas plans to establish a military academy in the Gaza Strip to train and educate schoolchildren.

So instead of building schools, hospitals and things that would make life better for Gazans, they set up a terrorist training center for kids. I'm sure they'll learn all sort of useful things like building bombs and using weapons.

Quote:
Hamas Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh announced on Thursday that the military academy, the first of its kind in the Gaza Strip, would prepare the children for the “phase of liberating Palestine.”

Phase of liberating Palestine - right. They are better off to just zone off mass grave sites in Gaza if they think they can win by fighting.

Quote:
He said that children in grades 7-9 could join the school and graduate with a diploma or a BA in military affairs.

Very useful diploma.

Quote:
Haniyeh said that the new academy would educate and prepare children for the establishment of a Palestinian state “from the river to the sea.”

So much for a two-state solution. I just hope one day Israel re-occupies Gaza, this is the only way peace can be achieved since obviously the goofballs running Gaza aren't interested in co-existence with Israel.
 
777way
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 32):
The Palestinian situation is no fault but their own. What kind of message do they send to Israel with these kid terrorist training camps?

What message was Israel sending to the world with israeli kids writing hate messages on bombs to be used on Gaza under supervision and encouragement of troops and adults who were all smiles while the kids were at it.

To the rest of your post, its increasingly seeming Hamas is a puppet of Israel to help maintain status quo, something extremely fishy about this organisations agenda, imagine harming your own interestes with these ridiculous schemes.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 31):


Can you please also answer the questions posed to you in your Al Jazeera thread, everyone been waiting for almost three weeks now, as an aspiring journalist you should have been more than enthusiastic to do so to help establish your credibility.

[Edited 2013-01-26 16:58:51]
 
Powerslide
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:06 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 33):
What message was Israel sending to the world with israeli kids writing hate messages on bombs to be used on Gaza under supervision and encouragement of troops and adults who were all smiles while the kids were at it.

Avoiding the question and placing blame on Israel, seems to be the status-quo in that region. This is why Gazans will never see their own country. Writing harmless messages on bombs is nothing compared to a government setting up terrorist training centers.
 
WestJet747
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 1:36 am

It seems a couple posters here have lost perspective. Am I the only one who is going to point out that the US military recruits in high schools? Not to pick on the US, but some American posters here seem to think that recruiting children is the worst thing in the world, while their own government has been doing it for decades.

And no, I'm not lost to the notion that the Palestinians are likely indoctrinating these minors and teaching them to hate Israelis (which the Israelis are equally guilty of themselves)...but the fact remains that this country is recruiting minors for the purpose of defense.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 34):
Avoiding the question and placing blame on Israel, seems to be the status-quo in that region.

That's basically what you do for Israel for every thread on this topic. Don't throw stones in glass houses, my friend.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 34):
Writing harmless messages

Writing the messages doesn't actually do anything tangible, but it teaches the children that hate is okay. That is what people don't like about it, and I agree with them on that point.
Flying refined.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 27):
Honestly, any political system or party that threatens to steal or take away liberties from those whom they govern is just outright pathetic.

So far every single political system has taken liberties away from those they govern, only anarchy offers absolute liberty to anyone.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 27):
Terrorists are never right....especially fundamentalist terrorists.

The very people who created Israel very well meet definition of fundamentalist terrorists.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 31):
Palestinians are not interested in peace at all. Anyone who wants to challenge me on this is welcome to. I've been there five times. I've been through a terrorist attack. Can anyone here say the same thing?

Nah, Israel hasn't been interested in peace and that's what has forced Palestinians to turn towards extremist views instead of peaceful process which didn't go anywhere.


I still fail to see what gives Israelis even right to have their own state, yes like 2000 years ago some Jewish people lived there and ancient book says it's their promised land, so what? Palestinians aren't responsible of what Nazis did in the 40's, more reasonable would have been giving Israelis part of Germany to live in.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
777way
Posts: 6470
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2005 1:38 am

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:04 am

Avoiding questions?? LOL must be related to the fact that In pointed out how your chum here avoided answering questions posed to him in the Al Jazeera thread, he was due to answer them the next day, its been three weeks now, theres another one there who vanished with the same excuse,.

The message being sent is, they hate Israel, to answer your query, but again it could be Israel funded propaganda to let the status reman as is while isreal eats up more Palestinan land.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 34):

Hats off to your hypocricy,, hate messages are now harmless because Isreali's wrote them , Isreali children, innocent peace loving on ugly scary bombs that they should not have been near in a peace loving civilised country,, I dont think even Americans would allow their kids such acts no matter what, and if an Arab had done so it would be sacreliege.
 
Newark727
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:08 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 29):
You've never been to Israel, have you? But sure, keep believing whatever falsities you delude yourself with, they're so religiously intolerant that Saudis, Jordanians, Kuwaitis, Lebanese...etc are allowed to pass freely through Israel while in many of these same countries you aren't allowed in for simply having an Israeli stamp on your passport. Oh yes, and the Israelis are so intolerant that they have legislation and court systems which regularly protect the rights of Muslims living in Israel

Israel is almost unique in the industrialized world in being founded on a specific group's religion. The level of intolerance is debatable, but it's true, and IMO a country created on such a premise has to be much more vigilant about pluralism than most. Also, your comparisons to other countries in the region are self defeating, because if someone's only standard for Israel's human rights record is "better than Saudi Arabia," then you might as well not even bother making a comparison. Isn't the whole reason for supporting Israel that they are supposed to have higher standards than that?

[Edited 2013-01-26 18:09:08]
 
QFA380
Posts: 2013
Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:38 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 2:22 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 36):
I still fail to see what gives Israelis even right to have their own state

You can say this about nearly every single country on earth you realise. Relatively modern examples you can point to Australia, New Zealand, the US, Canada filled with Anglo-Saxons who nearly identically to the Israelis, moved over in parcels and built settlements over the course of decades until declaring they owned the land. Let's not forget it is not only we evil Anglo, the cancer upon the rest of humanity who have done this. South America was colonised by the Iberians in an identical fashion, though with considerably more bloodshed.

To be completely politically incorrect I could say that the Aboriginal people of Australia have no legitimate claim to this land because they too came over on boats, settled (insomuch as nomadic people settle) and asserted a right to the land.

One of the most notable differences between the aforementioned and the Zionists who settled in Palestine? The Zionists compensated most of owners of the land; and did not spill blood for sport or riches nearly always in defence. The land they purchased was nearly always inhospitable, desolate and only occasionally passed through by Bedouin tribes.
 
Powerslide
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:24 am

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:13 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 36):
I still fail to see what gives Israelis even right to have their own state

Considering the Jews overcame near total extermination to build a modern, technologically advanced democracy in less than 100 years. Unlike Israel's neighbours, they actually contribute to modern society and the western world. Such a small country with such huge accomplishments. Just imagine how much more they could accomplish if they didn't waste their time trying to defend itself.

Quoting 777way (Reply 37):
Avoiding questions?? LOL must be related to the fact that In pointed out how your chum here avoided answering questions posed to him in the Al Jazeera thread, he was due to answer them the next day, its been three weeks now, theres another one there who vanished with the same excuse,.

I have no idea what you are talking about, nor do I care.

Quoting 777way (Reply 37):
and if an Arab had done so it would be sacreliege.

No, Arabs just resort to setting up child terrorist camps supported by democratically elected governments. I'd rather have them just write notes on bombs. They probably do this already anyway.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 35):
Am I the only one who is going to point out that the US military recruits in high schools?

Every professional Military in the world has a recruiting section. Hamas is a terrorist organization, not a professional Army.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 35):
That's basically what you do for Israel for every thread on this topic. Don't throw stones in glass houses, my friend.

I already said that Israel isn't a saint, but what they do is for national defense and not terrorism.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 35):
Writing the messages doesn't actually do anything tangible, but it teaches the children that hate is okay.

I've written messages on bombs that went on aircraft and probably killed people. Has nothing to do with hate.
 
Newark727
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:46 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 40):
Unlike Israel's neighbours, they actually contribute to modern society and the western world

Ahahaha really? Have you driven a car lately? Ethnocentrism is usually a bit more veiled than this.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 40):

I've written messages on bombs that went on aircraft and probably killed people. Has nothing to do with hate.

Disagree. Why would you invite children to write messages on a bomb for any reason other than to teach them that killing certain people is okay?
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
Joined: Sat Aug 06, 2011 7:43 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:52 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 36):
I still fail to see what gives Israelis even right to have their own state

Ah, so I'm guessing South Sudan shouldn't have the right to have their own state either? All that genocide business is just gravy, right?

Based on your line of thinking here, my own country shouldn't even be it's own state. Neither should my neighbours to the south.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 40):
Arabs just resort to setting up child terrorist camps

I wasn't aware there were child terrorist camps in the UAE, Kuwait, Qatar, Bahrain, Saudia Arabia, etc....

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 40):
I already said that Israel isn't a saint, but what they do is for national defense and not terrorism.

I've never seen you criticize Israel once, but moving on...

Are the Palestinians not also defending themselves? The way I see it is that both sides are "defending themselves" while actively attacking each other. Rather childish the whole thing, really. (no pun intended)

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 40):
Has nothing to do with hate.

Then what does it have to do with?
Flying refined.
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:18 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 27):
They are an illegitimate government

Are they? From what I remember they were properly elected.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 29):
Because apparently Hamas sees fit to place their military targets among such strategic locations as schools and hospitals.

Are they "placing their targets" any different from others? Especially when in a space constrained area?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 31):
Palestinians are not interested in peace at all. Anyone who wants to challenge me on this is welcome to. I've been there five times. I've been through a terrorist attack. Can anyone here say the same thing?

You think they want perpetual war??? Better provide some support for that theory. Do you think the US population would happily go along if the rest of the world decided that the current US territory will be given to a new Muslim State?

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 40):
I already said that Israel isn't a saint, but what they do is for national defense and not terrorism.

Yet a lot of what they do to Palestinians would be described as terrorism if it was the Palestinians doing it to Israelis.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:37 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 40):
Considering the Jews overcame near total extermination to build a modern, technologically advanced democracy in less than 100 years.

Let's not oversell things here. The Jews were not facing near total extermination - there was a huge Jewish community in the US prior to World War II and the Holocaust.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 40):
I already said that Israel isn't a saint, but what they do is for national defense and not terrorism.

Settlement expansion is for national defense? You'll have a hard time selling that one.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Powerslide
Posts: 577
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 2:24 am

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:05 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 41):
Ahahaha really? Have you driven a car lately?

I wouldn't consider sucking oil out of the ground a contribution. If it wasn't for oil they'd have nothing.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 42):
Then what does it have to do with?

Nothing. It doesn't mean anything. The receiver won't see it anyway so what difference does it make other than making the news. It's only a big deal if you see it as one.

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
Yet a lot of what they do to Palestinians would be described as terrorism

If Israel wanted to remove the Palestinian problem from their agenda they would have done so already. If Hamas, or the Arabs for that matter, would have had half the capability or capacity they would hesitate to start another war.

Quoting Mir (Reply 44):
Settlement expansion is for national defense? You'll have a hard time selling that one.

I don't believe that's the topic at hand here. How anyone can justifiably support Hamas child militant camps by diverting the problem into Israel's hand is laughable at best. The Palestinians aren't doing themselves any favours and are only begging for a larger response by the IDF. I'm almost beginning to think they deserve to live the way they do.
 
Newark727
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:30 am

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 45):
I wouldn't consider sucking oil out of the ground a contribution. If it wasn't for oil they'd have nothing.

Then your concept of contribution is both limited and skewed. We wouldn't have the money to tell people who is and isn't a contributor to our society if not for petroleum. You're just trying to define the terms of the debate in a manner that makes unconditional support for Israel look attractive.

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 45):

Nothing. It doesn't mean anything. The receiver won't see it anyway so what difference does it make other than making the news. It's only a big deal if you see it as one.

Of course the receiver won't see it. That's not the issue here. I don't mind scrawling right over bombs if the military launching them feels it's good fun. But if kids are just doing that, it sends a message that violence is just good fun and games. I'm sure you'd be shouting from the rooftops if Palestinians were doing the same thing- and they are, and it's worse, and you're right to be against it.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 1892
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:38 am

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 38):
Israel is almost unique in the industrialized world in being founded on a specific group's religion.

No, they're not unique in that respect, and their government is secular.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 38):
Also, your comparisons to other countries in the region are self defeating, because if someone's only standard for Israel's human rights record is "better than Saudi Arabia," then you might as well not even bother making a comparison.

Well that was exactly the point. Israel's human rights record isn't simply "better than Saudi Arabia", it's the only country in that region who's human rights record is on par with most other Western democracies.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 38):
The level of intolerance is debatable, but it's true, and IMO a country created on such a premise has to be much more vigilant about pluralism than most.

Does intolerance exist there? Sure, I wasn't trying to say that it didn't...I was simply contesting the hyperbole of calling Israel a "religiously intolerant" state, there are scores of Muslims living peacefully in Israel and open Catholics, atheists, homosexuals...etc can freely move around the country. There's intolerance against Muslims in the US, against North Africans in France and against Sikhs in India, etc. What sets Israel apart from its neighbors and puts it on par with the other Western democracies is that one has legal recourse to address this intolerance and serve justice. If a Muslim in the UK was fired from his/her job just because they were Muslim, they could of course take it to court and justice would be dispensed, the same would happen and does happen in Israel...the same cannot truthfully be said for Jews or Christians in Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Iran.

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 29):
Because apparently Hamas sees fit to place their military targets among such strategic locations as schools and hospitals.

Are they "placing their targets" any different from others? Especially when in a space constrained area?

Uhh, yes. Most rational people would place tactical military weapons or hardware away from civilian locations (well, ok, even NEXT to a school would be a heck of a lot more preferable than ON TOP of a school), not that radical Muslim terrorists have ever been all too concerned with having other Muslims killed to further their cause anyway.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 46):
Quoting Powerslide (Reply 45):
I wouldn't consider sucking oil out of the ground a contribution. If it wasn't for oil they'd have nothing.

Then your concept of contribution is both limited and skewed. We wouldn't have the money to tell people who is and isn't a contributor to our society if not for petroleum.

The modern concepts for usage of petroleum and it's mass extraction are Western and, as such, it was Western companies which initially developed Middle Eastern oil. Not to say Muslims haven't contributed to society at all....in the past (that is to say in the days of the Ottomans) there were great contributions of Algebra, art and literature by the Muslim world.

[Edited 2013-01-26 21:44:01]
 
PHX787
Posts: 7877
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:46 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:56 am

Are you seriously kidding me?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 36):
So far every single political system has taken liberties away from those they govern, only anarchy offers absolute liberty to anyone.

No. Anarchy allows for NO rule of law. Anarchy allows for terrorism to simply exist in itself. Look at Egypt- a complete anarchical mess, despite the so-called elected government.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 36):
The very people who created Israel very well meet definition of fundamentalist terrorists.

Again, seriously? Isreall was created by a mandate because the Jews were being exterminated by Nazi germany, and repressed by the USSR and other extremist countries. There was NO PALESTINE that existed as an independent nation since the Ottoman Empire. Pick up a history book.
Someone should run an FBI check on you. Your ideals fit the basics of extremists. Extremists have never granted their so-called 'manifestos" to their people. Instead they repress progress and growth.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 42):
Based on your line of thinking here, my own country shouldn't even be it's own state. Neither should my neighbours to the south.

   What are we, then? Are us Americans/Canadians fundamentalist terrorists?
Follow me on twitter: www.twitter.com/phx787
 
Newark727
Posts: 1425
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 6:42 pm

RE: Meanwhile, In Gaza...

Sun Jan 27, 2013 6:33 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):

No, they're not unique in that respect, and their government is secular.

Not unique, which is exactly what I said. But their circumstances are certainly unusual, and while politics and religion are no strangers in either the United States or Europe, most countries with a strong religious structure in their past are quite a bit older than Israel and don't have as many explicitly religious political parties with a seat at the table.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):
What sets Israel apart from its neighbors and puts it on par with the other Western democracies is that one has legal recourse to address this intolerance and serve justice. If a Muslim in the UK was fired from his/her job just because they were Muslim, they could of course take it to court and justice would be dispensed, the same would happen and does happen in Israel...the same cannot truthfully be said for Jews or Christians in Egypt, Saudi Arabia or Iran.

This is precisely my point, though. There are people who are eager to dismiss concerns about Israel's relationship to its minorities, especially the Palestinians over whom it exercises effective governance, because they have options available to them that aren't available in neighboring countries with less social development. But that's not good enough to just say "well, Israel is better that Syria, I guess they're in the right on this." Because even nations with comparatively strong structures of human rights and law can overstep their bounds.

Is that the case in the OP's situation? Well no. But I'm worried from Israel's usual response on these matters that they won't offer a viable alternative to the Gazans who are targeted in these cynical efforts from Hamas.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 47):

The modern concepts for usage of petroleum and it's mass extraction are Western and, as such, it was Western companies which initially developed Middle Eastern oil.

True, but that's only half the story when you consider who actually governs the land. The point is, the poster I was responding to was creating an absurd metric of "contribution" to justify support for Israel above its neighbors.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 48):

No. Anarchy allows for NO rule of law. Anarchy allows for terrorism to simply exist in itself. Look at Egypt- a complete anarchical mess, despite the so-called elected government.

I think he was saying that rule of law requires a measure of reduction of "freedom," and I have to agree insamuch as a small degree of coercion is necessary to the functioning of a modern government.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 48):
Again, seriously? Isreall was created by a mandate because the Jews were being exterminated by Nazi germany, and repressed by the USSR and other extremist countries. There was NO PALESTINE that existed as an independent nation since the Ottoman Empire. Pick up a history book.

-There was a great deal of violent action by extremists on both sides in the British mandate before Israel's creation.
-No Palestine doesn't mean no Palestinians, nor does it mean that they weren't deserving of self-determination. They had deep ties to the land they were living in, being ruled by one empire, then another (the British rule under a League of Nations mandate, basically the last gasp of European colonialism,) doesn't change that much.

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