fr8mech
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BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:08 pm

Looks like the Boy Scouts of America has decided to change its national policy on gay scouts and gay scout leaders. If I'm reading the article correctly, there will no longer be a national policy on gays, meaning that the local councils, districts and chartered organizations can make the decision.

I'll guess that the majority of the packs that are chartered by religious groups will not change their position (though we may be surprised), I suspect that many non-religious organizations that charter a pack will quietly lift the restriction. Some may even do it noisily.

Definitely a step in the right direction.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/...scouts-end-ban-gays-193808487.html
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Tugger
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:32 pm

Yeah, I never really understand how they could support such a ban as it has nothing to do with Boy Scouts or what the organization strives for. It simply made no sense. It certainly has nothing to do with believing in a "God" nor with doing your best and helping those around you and leading with high ideals.

But with that said, I'll believe it when I see it actually happen. I'm hoping but the organization has let me down on this several times.

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DocLightning
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:36 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
Yeah, I never really understand how they could support such a ban as it has nothing to do with Boy Scouts or what the organization strives for. It simply made no sense. It certainly has nothing to do with believing in a "God" nor with doing your best and helping those around you and leading with high ideals.

Quite simple: hate. Evil people who care more about their hatred of gays than they care about raising boys into men.

I'm an Eagle Scout and I did not send my award back to BSA. I stood there as an example of the outrageous nature of their policy. I am a Stanford-educated, University of Michigan trained pediatrician, an Eagle Scout, and apparently a "bad example."

There was recently the case of the gay teenager who completed his Eagle Requirements, but National refused to grant his Eagle Award in spite of the fact that he earned it.

As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.
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Braniff747SP
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Mon Jan 28, 2013 11:37 pm

As a long-time youth member of the Boy Scouts, I welcome this.

This has long been my biggest gripe with National; the absurdity of this policy when, side by side, everything that we stand for in the Boy Scouts is about 'equality', 'openness', 'friendship', and so on. Having such a ridiculous policy has long given the BSA bad press uselessly... the worst part is that it reflects on its membership when many don't agree.

Our council, as far as I know, is not a vigorous enforcer; our troop certainly isn't. It's about bloody time that Irving is getting onboard.


Welcome to the 21st century, National.

Edited to add:

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 3):
As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.

 checkmark  Agreed fully. No one stands--stood?--to loose anything except the Westboro types.

[Edited 2013-01-28 15:40:15]
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Maverick623
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:26 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):


As an Eagle, and as a man who benefited greatly from Scouts as a boy, it has hurt me these last 17 years (1996-present) to watch the organization adopt such a hateful policy because BSA doesn't win, the gay rights people don't win, but the BOYS lose.

Agreed.

I also agree with not sending your Eagle back. I seriously considered it, but realized the only message it would send is one of defeat... that when the tough gets going, the best thing to do is to quit. That is exactly the opposite that I was taught in Scouting.

What I think is truly sad and indicative of the immaturity of the National board, is that the only reason this "change" has come about is because the largest sponsors have either pulled or threatened to pull their money.
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srbmod
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:29 am

Now only if they would revisit their ban on atheists and get their program more in line with Scouting organizations in other countries. I would not be allowed to be an adult volunteer in any BSA programs because I am an Atheist.

If you've not seen it before, several years back Penn & Teller had an entire episode of their series Penn & Teller: Bullshit! in regards to the Boy Scouts and their policies regarding gays and atheists.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndoP1YW72Zk

This decision is a step in the right direction, as some Scouting groups disbanded as they were chartered by schools and local governments and the BSA's policies ran counter to local and state laws that barred government support to groups that are considered to have discriminatory policies. By leaving it up to the individual troops and the organizations they are chartered, those troops whose sponsoring organization have strict policies against gays can still bar their entry but at the same time, those with more tolerant views can freely welcome gays into their troops.

The problem is that there are still a lot of folks in the organization on a national level that are stuck with the outdated mindset that all gays are trying to convert others into being gay and is why it's taken so long to even get this sort of loosening up of things. They have to tread carefully in order to not upset churches like the Mormons, who are the single largest sponsor of Scouting groups in the BSA and they had threatened to pull all of the BSA groups they sponsored from the organization and form their own Scouting group. Something like that would be catastrophic for the BSA.

The various programs within the Boy Scouts are good programs that teach a lot of skills that will come in handy more often than you think. Being an Eagle Scout is something that even those who may not have been in Boy Scouts or never went too far in the program recognize as a really major accomplishment. It's been nearly 20 years since I earned my Eagle Scout rank and it still something that even though I have not been involved in Boy Scouts since the late-90s (I had moved to the other side of town and trying to go to college and work part-time made it difficult to continue to work with my old troop as an Assistant Scoutmaster.) that I am still proud about earning.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:41 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 5):

Now only if they would revisit their ban on atheists and get their program more in line with Scouting organizations in other countries. I would not be allowed to be an adult volunteer in any BSA programs because I am an Atheist.

... according to National. That would be an incredulous action here in my neck of the woods. I know several atheists in the Scouts.
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:55 am

Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?
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Braniff747SP
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:56 am

Quoting type-rated (Reply 8):

Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?

As far as I know, the Girl Scouts have no exclusionary policies whatsoever; no religion, sexual orientation, or other things that are still rooted in the last century and beyond.
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PHX787
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:57 am

I talked with my parents, who raised me catholic, about this issue recently.....well, I should say me, followed by the rest of my family, left the church.

I'm pretty happy with the BSA's decision about this. I am an Eagle Scout, and I don't want my position in this magnificent organization misconstrued for homophobia. My mom simply was shocked that they didn't allow gays into the BSA and she applauded the step. My dad too was surprised....we never had to deal with that issue in my particular troop.


However, there was a very contentious issue that came up a few years ago.... one guy in a different troop was stripped of his Eagle Award by his scoutmaster because of his homosexuality. My scoutmaster, risking his own position, brought him into the troop and had the Dan Beard Council issue him one in our troop's name, simply pointing out that "there was no evidence" that this kid was gay, even though he was out and open about it.

Now that the ban is over, I expect that more scouts who were stripped of this prestigious award will be reinstated.
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Aesma
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:16 am

I was a cub "Scout de France", the main branch of scouting in France and catholic, with the occasional mass, but no longer priests in the packs (unlike "Scouts d'Europe" who are really conservative) and being gay or atheist never came up, but then again I was a kid and didn't even know what those words meant. Several girls were in love with me and I didn't notice anything either... 

Then my best friend suggested I join his pack of "Eclaireurs Eclaireuses Unionistes de France" (éclaireur means scout in French), the main protestant branch of scouting in France, and I joined despite being catholic. That never came up, as for my friend he was not religious in the least. In 5 years I never put a foot in a temple, there was the occasional prayer around the fire but if you didn't want to participate nothing was made of it.

This pack was actually conservative though, but only on the scouting aspects : we wore the same outfit Baden-Powell had designed, with short shorts and long socks even in the snow, the hat, etc. The last couple of years we were forced to adapt and do parallel camps with girls, most other packs being coed but not ours. The girls didn't feel safe alone so they would set camp a km from us and we would share some activities (and our leaders would fuck their leaders... ).

Frankly sex has nothing to do with scouting and especially when gender segregated it shouldn't even come up, so gay or not gay... On the other hand we were sleeping in tents and all so if one is gay and rejected for that I could see a problem. Maybe a good excuse to go sleep in the girls' tent ? 

Apparently my pack was pretty close to "Traditional Scouting" that I just discovered : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traditional_Scouting

10 years later I'm not sure it has survived though. I'm not conservative in the least but I think wearing the uniform most of the time was really a good thing, when we ran into a more modern EEUF coed pack where everybody was in jeans and T-shirts it just looked like a random summer camp.

[Edited 2013-01-28 17:25:35]
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ltbewr
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:33 am

This is still a very vague half measure, it leave too many loopholes for religious organization sponsors, still discriminates as to adult leaders who are GLTB. They also appear to continue to discriminate against those who are non-religious or not part of an institutional faith. To me, by such discrimination they are in conflict with the basic rules and their oath.

The only reason for this so-called change is money. They cannot afford to lose rich, corporate executives who give money or public organization sponsors that cannot support those that discriminate as to GLTB's. Maybe the BSA needs to look at the Girls Scouts, who apparently have no such discrimination policies.
 
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:13 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 10):
Now that the ban is over, I expect that more scouts who were stripped of this prestigious award will be reinstated.

Possibly, but I expect that a lot more Eagle Scouts who are long past the age of scouting will "come out" now that they no longer have to fear being stripped of their Eagle rank years after they earned it.
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DocLightning
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
This is still a very vague half measure, it leave too many loopholes for religious organization sponsors, still discriminates as to adult leaders who are GLTB. They also appear to continue to discriminate against those who are non-religious or not part of an institutional faith. To me, by such discrimination they are in conflict with the basic rules and their oath.

I agree, but it is a very encouraging measure.

Also, I believe that individual, private churches and troops should be permitted to exclude gays, Jews, or redheads if they so choose. However, given that BSA claims they belong to no one religion, they should not be dictating such a policy to all troops.

However, I agree that the religious requirement is wrong, especially since Unitarian Universalists need not apply.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 14):
The only reason for this so-called change is money.

You're darned right it is. And it just shows what hypocrites these "moral" and "deeply religious" people are who seem to suddenly develop amnesia about their religion when their pocketbooks take a hit.

And you know what? I'll take it. Because it means that public opinion on the matter is turning that quickly. It means that we have a new generation of young people who simply don't do discrimination. They are not interested in it at all. And that makes me very happy. There is hope for us, yet.

And the outcome is that homophobia is going to turn into an irrelevance. It would not shock me if the LDS Church turned on the issue in my lifetime.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:16 am

Good, but, I do have one concern. A quick disclaimer, I'm not anti-gay in any way (except when it comes to teasing Doc   ) but I heard the criticism "would you trust a gay Boy Scout leader on a camping trip, alone in the tent? At first I dismissed it, but then I thought "we don't let adult males sleep in tents alone with a bunch of young girls, and I can see a problem with letting a single gay adult male sleep in a tent with a bunch of young boys, alone." That is not being anti-gay, it's just recognizing the temptations of humans in general (and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either.)

Basically, I wouldn't be opposed to requiring another adult to be present... I don't see it as anti-gay, I see it along the same lines of not letting a adult male being in a tent with a bunch of young girls. It is a legitimate concern IMO. What are yall's thoughts?
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:34 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
At first I dismissed it, but then I thought "we don't let adult males sleep in tents alone with a bunch of young girls, and I can see a problem with letting a single gay adult male sleep in a tent with a bunch of young boys, alone." That is not being anti-gay, it's just recognizing the temptations of humans in general (and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either.)

That's no different than the argument that gay men in the military should be barracked separately from straight men for the same reason women are barracked separately.

No, it's actually not for the same reason and it has nothing to do with sex. Straight men and gay men use the same locker room. I have on a few occasions found myself the only adult male in a locker room full of young boys. It is gender that makes the difference, not sexuality.

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:37 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

Ah, well, this solves the problem right here
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trav110
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:41 am

It's funny how a loss of donations and membership revenues will impact policy decisions.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Your reasoning seems to follow the logic that gays are pedophiles, which of course is completely untrue

um:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either

So barring male men from sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of girls is implying they are pedophiles too?
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Braniff747SP
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:25 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

100% against National policy. In fact, one can't be alone with a Scout leader; there must be or either another Scout leader or another Scout. I find the last bit to be a little too much, but it is what it is.

No adults in tents. Ever. That would be a serious breach of standards.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
You're darned right it is. And it just shows what hypocrites these "moral" and "deeply religious" people are who seem to suddenly develop amnesia about their religion when their pocketbooks take a hit.

At least it changes. It is a pity, though, that that is what it takes--and not cries from youth and adult membership alike.
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Maverick623
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:26 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
It would not shock me if the LDS Church turned on the issue in my lifetime.

Well, they did finally recognize that same-sex attraction is not a choice and that people shouldn't be shunned just because they're gay.

However, they do still think it's proper and healthy to "encourage" people to not act on those feelings and live the live God intended (get married to a person of the opposite sex and have lots of babies).

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

It still is.
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PHX787
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:55 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 25):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):

ANYWAY, at least in our troop, Scoutmasters and Scouts NEVER shared the same tents unless they were father and son. No Scoutmaster was EVER alone with a Scout unless it was his son. It was BSA policy and I hope it still is.

It still is.

Heck they take it further. I was on Seabase in Florida and I got stung real bad by a jellyfish while snorkeling, and in order for me to get back on the boat, one other scout and a leader had to come off the water and back on the boat with me, so I wouldn't be alone on the boat with the captain. they're serious about this stuff.
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WestJet747
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:57 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
So barring male men from sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of girls is implying they are pedophiles too?

I'd say it has more to do with accepted societal norms...but we've cornered a double-standard in a way here. The only example I could offer is the one Doc already gave in reply 18.

Quoting sccutler (Reply 23):
You are entirely too eager to throw down the word, "hate,"
Quoting sccutler (Reply 23):
a complete lack of knowledge of the difference between a gay person and a pedophile

1. People hate pedophiles.
2. Certain people lack the knowledge to differentiate gays and pedophiles.
3. Therefore the premise follows that certain people hate gays.

I don't think the above argument breaks any of Aristotle's Laws of Thought, so I'd say that Doc's statement holds true.
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Superfly
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:45 pm

When I think Boy Scout, I think late elementary, middle-school - usually aged 10-13. Any dude that showed up at my high school wearing a Boy Scout uniform would have been laughed off campus and would never get laid by any girls. It was seen as un-hip by the time you get to high school. I didn't think guys had anything to do with the Boy Scouts by the time they got to high school.
Then again, I went to school with a bunch of secular humanistic Heathens.   

Cub scout & boy scouts are too young to even identify their sexual orientation. Ironically one of my best friends as a child was in the Cub Scouts as well. His parents put him in a different 'den' than me. His parents thought that I was a bad influence I have no understanding why they thought that when I was only 9 years old. I had older siblings and was hanging out at the local disco rollerskating rink and was picking up the language that the older kids were using.
Anyhow, he turned out to be gay but no one knew that at that early age.

I lost interest in the Scouts when I started to hang around the bad kids. I started playing guitar and listening to metal at age 13. That's when I learned to string guitars, forge absentee notes from school, roll joints, separate the seeds and stems, sneak in to concerts, scope out liquor stores that sold to us minors and locate the sensitive spots on girls - stuff the Boy Scouts didn't teach.


That said, I wouldn't have a problem with someone who is gay serving in the Boy Scouts. Just not sure why one would want to join considering it's a religious organization. We never did anything gay other than go in to the woods and rub sticks together....

Quoting type-rated (Reply 7):
Do the Girl Scouts reject Lesbians as well?


I was in the Girl Scouts....

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 8):
the Girl Scouts have no exclusionary policies whatsoever; no religion, sexual orientation, or other things that are still rooted in the last century and beyond.



You're just saying that to earn Brownie points with the girls!  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):
(get married to a person of the opposite sex and have lots of babies).


Oh God, even I'm trying to avoid the married life. Having the same woman in my bed every night and babies crying at 3:00 AM?!?!?   
I'd be traumatized.
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Braniff747SP
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 2:20 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):

You're just saying that to earn Brownie points with the girls!  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 20):

No same Girl Scout would ever look at a Boy Scout....

At least I hope not, for their sake!
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Superfly
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 24):
No same Girl Scout would ever look at a Boy Scout....

At least I hope not, for their sake!

Why?
How are Girl Scouts any better than Boy Scouts?
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Tugger
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 18):
um:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
and I'm not saying gay men are more inclined to be pedophiles either

So barring male men from sleeping in the same tent with a bunch of girls is implying they are pedophiles too?

Sad thing is that almost every "against" column I have read so far about the possible change (and I think it is very important to remember that this is only a possible change, it is not decided) has essentially equated the change with pedophilia and allowing access to poor potential victims boys.....

Many cannot understand how this:

Scout Oath
On my honor I will do my best
To do my duty to God and my country
and to obey the Scout Law;
To help other people at all times;
To keep myself physically strong,
mentally awake, and morally straight.

Scout Law
A Scout is:
Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful,
Friendly, Courteous, Kind,
Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty,
Brave, Clean, Reverent

....can possibly be compatible with homosexuality. They can't wrap their heads around the fact that being "morally straight" is not the same thing as "sexuality". In my church there are plenty of "moral" and "reverent" people and they encompass homosexuals and heterosexuals (even a few metrosexuals   ). Because it just doesn't matter when it comes to being a good person and doing well in life and helping others what your sexuality is.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
How are Girl Scouts any better than Boy Scouts?

No banning members for not believing in God, nor banning leaders (or members) for being homosexual.

And you have to admit Girls Scouts have far better management, I mean no one "hates" Girls Scouts and GS cookies are a force unto their own.... it's a billion dollar empire! And the Boy Scouts are in the news all time and getting sued and having their own members sending they honors back.... and they sell popcorn? At ~$15/bag? They are crazy! And then when the opportunity came along to sell nuts the Boy Scouts didn't jump at the chance and now the GS are selling them too! I mean really.... Boy Scouts and nuts, what could be more appropriate!   

Tugg

[Edited 2013-01-29 09:09:20]
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DeltaMD90
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
Sad thing is that almost every "against" column I have read so far about the possible change (and I think it is very important to remember that this is only a possible change, it is not decided) has essentially equated the change with pedophilia and allowing access to poor potential victims boys.....

Well I know that is the classic line, and I'm not going down that road, but I can see how it might seem that way. I keep going back to the whole "don't let men sleep in the same tent as young girls..." it doesn't mean I think they're all pedophiles.

But it's all moot anyway since they have a policy of no boy alone with an adult anyway
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Braniff747SP
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:56 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):

Why?
How are Girl Scouts any better than Boy Scouts?

It's about how Boy Scouts act when alone and not in the presence of others...

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
And you have to admit Girls Scouts have far better management, I mean no one "hates" Girls Scouts and GS cookies are a force unto their own.... it's a billion dollar empire! And the Boy Scouts are in the news all time and getting sued and having their own members sending they honors back.... and they sell popcorn? At ~$15/bag? They are crazy! And then when the opportunity came along to sell nuts the Boy Scouts didn't jump at the chance and now the GS are selling them too! I mean really.... Boy Scouts and nuts, what could be more appropriate!

The Girl Scouts are nothing more than a cookie-selling ring.    


And that popcorn isn't bad, by the way... I used to sell it when I was in Cub Scouts. We don't do that anymore in Boy Scouts, at least in my troop.
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Superfly
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:00 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
No banning members for not believing in God, nor banning leaders (or members) for being homosexual.



Has nothing to do with a Girl Scout liking a Boy Scout. There are many Boy Scouts that probably don't even agree or even know about the gay ban. Views on gays isn't something most heteros consider when picking a partner. Especially at that age. You're over politicizing and analyzing.

Quoting tugger (Reply 26):
And you have to admit Girls Scouts have far better management, I mean no one "hates" Girls Scouts and GS cookies are a force unto their own.... it's a billion dollar empire! And the Boy Scouts are in the news all time and getting sued and having their own members sending they honors back.... and they sell popcorn? At ~$15/bag? They are crazy! And then when the opportunity came along to sell nuts the Boy Scouts didn't jump at the chance and now the GS are selling them too! I mean really.... Boy Scouts and nuts, what could be more appropriate!



Again, over politicizing and analyzing. I think it has more to do with bashing traditional male fraternal organizations - breaking up the good ole boy network so to speak. Many lawyers and activist do not like what the Boy Scouts teach and would rather our young boys go in to touchy, feely sensitive nonsense like poetry and churn out a bunch of wimps. This sounds like a war on men. As far as nut sales go, I had no idea that Boy Scouts had nuts to sale. Are you in line to get some money from a pending lawsuit against the Boy Scouts?
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 27):
But it's all moot anyway since they have a policy of no boy alone with an adult anyway

  

And whether one is homosexual or not is not an indicator of whether that person is a good person, a good leader, dangerous or "safe". People need to focus on that and not the hysteria that occurs.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 28):
The Girl Scouts are nothing more than a cookie-selling ring.

Do not speak such things of the cookie mafia, they'll disappear ya!

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 28):
And that popcorn isn't bad, by the way...

I've bought my fair share of it. It's good popcorn but it damn well better be for $15.00!

Tugg
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Tugger
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:19 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
Again, over politicizing and analyzing. I think it has more to do with bashing traditional male fraternal organizations - breaking up the good ole boy network so to speak. Many lawyers and activist do not like what the Boy Scouts teach and would rather our young boys go in to touchy, feely sensitive nonsense like poetry and churn out a bunch of wimps. This sounds like a war on men. As far as nut sales go, I had no idea that Boy Scouts had nuts to sale. Are you in line to get some money from a pending lawsuit against the Boy Scouts?

I think you are missing something. Most (pretty much much all) of what I posted above was in fun and jest.

Tugg
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DocLightning
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
When I think Boy Scout, I think late elementary, middle-school - usually aged 10-13. Any dude that showed up at my high school wearing a Boy Scout uniform would have been laughed off campus and would never get laid by any girls. It was seen as un-hip by the time you get to high school. I didn't think guys had anything to do with the Boy Scouts by the time they got to high school.

I earned my Eagle award in 7th grade. But then I was the Senior Patrol Leader. And after that, I became a Junior Assistant Scoutmaster until I turned 18 (senior year of HS) at which point I was a Scoutmaster.

I'd love to volunteer with a local troop. I'd love to donate money to BSA. I have a lot to offer, but I can't participate until this rule. And even if I were straight, I still wouldn't participate because this flies contrary to the values of Scouting that I was taught.

Seriously, sex and sexuality were non-issues in my troop. Sure, the boys talked about it amongst themselves (as teenage boys will), but it was never a topic of discussion when Scoutmasters were around.
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
There are many Boy Scouts that probably don't even agree

   I've been a card-carrying Boy Scout for eight years; I have never agreed with this policy. Most in my troop don't agree or don't even know it exsists as we have always disregarded the absurd policy.
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:45 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):

Again, over politicizing and analyzing. I think it has more to do with bashing traditional male fraternal organizations - breaking up the good ole boy network so to speak.

Nothing to do with that. BSA commanded a lot of respect until their idiotic position in 1996.
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slider
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
Quite simple: hate. Evil people who care more about their hatred of gays than they care about raising boys into men.

Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyperbole.

Right, wrong or indifferent to the decision, this is why we can't even have an honest discussion of it--because it gets polarized and becomes a divisive crapfest.
 
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:26 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 35):
Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyperbole.

Right, wrong or indifferent to the decision, this is why we can't even have an honest discussion of it--because it gets polarized and becomes a divisive crapfest.

I think it ultimately comes down to respect and "value" and if people are respected by those around them or diminished in value by the action (or inaction) of others. It is one thing to devalue an organization, it is quite another to devalue a human being to the point where they don't count. It inspires people to hate and get angry.

Interestingly the entire purpose of organizations like the Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts is create internal value and respect for oneself. To provide support and encouragement through good work and hard effort, to get people to value and respect themselves by way of tasks they perform, with the support of and as part of a group. To learn that you are important and capable as an individual but also that you are part of something bigger, an important part of a group where if people work together more things get done. So work on yourself, help others, work as a groups and great things can be done.

Ones sexuality really has nothing to do with that, so it never made sense to me why the Boy Scouts organization acted as they did. The only reason I could see really did not fit with what they group was trying to be and teach.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that the policy will change.

Tugg
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
Seriously, sex and sexuality were non-issues in my troop.

As it should be with any organization about this.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 34):
Nothing to do with that. BSA commanded a lot of respect until their idiotic position in 1996.

Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:52 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):

... according to National. That would be an incredulous action here in my neck of the woods. I know several atheists in the Scouts.

Most troops don't care what the religious beliefs of their members are. Pretty much everyone that was a member of the troop I was in didn't even attend the church that our troop was chartered to (The pastor of the church actually served as Scoutmaster for a time and would always have to leave on Saturday night in order to conduct services the next morning.).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 23):
I was in the Girl Scouts....

Must resist the obvious Brownie joke.....

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 32):
I earned my Eagle award in 7th grade.

That was quick, as you really would have to bust your butt to get it that quickly, especially with the time requirements (rank and leadership position) for Star, Life and Eagle. There was a guy that transferred into our troop that got his Eagle at 13 and at the time he joined our troop, he had also earned about 75% of the merit badges being offered. We used to joke about him needing two merit badge sashes. In several cases, he was the first Scout in the council to earn merit badges that had just been introduced.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.

Gays have never been officially allowed, but there never was an official publicly stated policy banning them until sometime in the last 30 years.

One thing to note is that the World Organization Of The Scouting Movement itself has no position on gays nor does the WSOM ban non-theists from membership. Each Scouting organization sets their own policies on allowing gay members and have leeway in regards to religious beliefs; the US program is one of those with a pretty hard-line stance that differs from other Scouting organizations. For example, Scouts Canada and The Scout Association (The UK Scouting organization) allows gays to be members and to hold adult leadership position and those that are atheists or agnostics to be members as well. Then again, they don't have groups like the Southern Baptists and Mormons threatening the national organization with a boycott (There are reports that the Southern Baptists may vote at their next convention whether to continue to support the Boy Scouts in the wake of these changes.).
 
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyperbole.

I can handle "holding a belief." I can't handle telling people that they aren't allowed to do something or to join a group just because of some inherent characteristic that has no bearing on the membership at hand. And yes, judging others for their inherent characteristics is hateful, immoral, and evil. I stand by that statement and I will not apologize for it. It is not "I disagree with your views." It is: "I disagree with your existence."

Or are we to tolerate racism as "holding a belief" as well? It is no different than homophobia and neither "belief" has any place in modern society.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 38):
That was quick, as you really would have to bust your butt to get it that quickly, especially with the time requirements (rank and leadership position) for Star, Life and Eagle

Pretty standard in my troop, actually. We were an Eagle machine!  
Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.

There was no policy until 1996. Then an Eagle Scout was denied his award because he was gay and National took it all the way to the Supreme Court who ruled that BSA was a private organization and could discriminate as they please. I suppose I agree with the Court. It's the BSA who I disagree with.
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 28):

It's about how Boy Scouts act when alone and not in the presence of others

Is this any different than how boy non-scouts act when alone and not in the pres...(okay, that last part is just redundant)?
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....so let's stop with the hyperbole.

Sorry, Revelation already tried this tactic, and it failed miserably.

You can generalize differences in beliefs all you want, but at the end of the day there is simply no other explanation for discriminating against someone because of their sexual orientation than either pure stupidity or hate. That you have a right to a certain belief is not an immunity from honest criticism of that belief, nor does it make that belief actionable.

I know Doc said this, but I did too in a post that got deleted: Switch the word "gay" with "black" in any argument, and see just how hateful it is.
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting hOmsAR (Reply 40):
Is this any different than how boy non-scouts act when alone and not in the pres...(okay, that last part is just redundant)?

You don't generally have thirty boys or so together on a weekend in the middle of nowhere.

You'd be surprised.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 38):
Most troops don't care what the religious beliefs of their members are. Pretty much everyone that was a member of the troop I was in didn't even attend the church that our troop was chartered to (The pastor of the church actually served as Scoutmaster for a time and would always have to leave on Saturday night in order to conduct services the next morning.).

Absolutely. Most troops don't give a damn; again, though, there is no reason for the policy.
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:12 am

Quoting srbmod (Reply 38):
(There are reports that the Southern Baptists may vote at their next convention whether to continue to support the Boy Scouts in the wake of these changes.).

I, for one, will be quite happy to see them go. They can start their own Baptist Scouts of America where they can be as exclusionary as they like, for all I care.

Scouting is about learning useful life and leadership skills. It is not about religion. Church (or Synagogue or Mosque or what-have-you) is for religion. I wish Americans would get this through their skulls.
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 43):
I, for one, will be quite happy to see them go. They can start their own Baptist Scouts of America where they can be as exclusionary as they like, for all I care.

Fully agreed. The nuts can go, for all I care.
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mham001
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:28 am

Frankly, I don't understand how they can do this. In so far as Scout "leaders", the BSA has ample experience with men "leaders" messing around with little boys. It was but a decade ago that BSA was excoriated for covering up rampant child molestation by predominantly gay men.

I know there is going to be howls of protest about "hate", about "religious zealots", and about everything else but empathy for the victims, but the facts are there. We have two very large institutions who have been through horrible scandals involving men with boys. Not men with girls, not women with boys or women with girls but men with boys. Why would anybody, including the myriad of posters in this thread, push for greater access to young boys by gay men? Has human physiology changed in the last 20 years? Do we just forget about the thousands of previous victims?

A few years ago, i went to a Cub Scout camping function. 7-10 year olds. The one and only queen type "leader" was on stage leading some routine with the boys doing nothing but butt jokes and innuendo along with plenty of physical emphasis. i couldn't believe what I was seeing and hearing after all the BSA turmoil. It was the last scouting function for my step-son. Just a no institution is going to give me access to an endless supply of supple young girls, nobody with sexual proclivities towards men *needs* access to boys.

As for gay scouts, let them be.
 
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:47 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 17):
At first I dismissed it, but then I thought "we don't let adult males sleep in tents alone with a bunch of young girls, and I can see a problem with letting a single gay adult male sleep in a tent with a bunch of young boys, alone.

They do what I do when my daughter hosts a sleep-over w/her friends and don't literally sleep in the same room/tent/whatever with them. It's pretty simple.

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

Let's back up a minute. Just because someone holds a belief different from you doesn't mean they "hate" or are "evil"....

It means just that if the belief they are holding up is hateful or evil. If you'd like to come up with some euphemisms, you're more than welcome to do so, but it's all the same.

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

Right, wrong or indifferent to the decision, this is why we can't even have an honest discussion of it--because

Looks to me like an honest discussion is exactly what's happening here.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
Were gays allowed up until 1996? If so, then shame on the Boy Scouts for doing this.

According to the video srbmod linked, there was no specific stance on the issue until 1980. In fact, there's a reference to the scoutmaster manual where it says (as rule #2 no less) that they are not to discuss issues of sexuality because "you are probably not qualified." I thought that was funny in the blunt kind of way we probably couldn't get away with nowadays, but I think that says it all right there.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
Why would anybody, including the myriad of posters in this thread, push for greater access to young boys by gay men?

You'd have to ask the Catholic Church that, wouldn't you? They and their counterparts over at the Southern Baptist Convention each (as in not combined) have a much higher incidence of molestation, per capita, of young boys, than the BSA ever did. What's their stance on gays again?


In all seriousness, gays showing kids how to camp (or being kids learning how to camp) is so far down the list of dangers facing our nation that people who worry about it can forget about being taken seriously. What people do not seem to understand is that Pedophilia is not related to one's sexuality any more than domestic violence or any other criminal behavior. If you're going to worry about gays, you need to worry about breeders too.
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Braniff747SP
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:49 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):

Pedophiles are pedophiles, regardless of orientation. You see controversy about the molesting of boys in the Boy Scouts because there are only boys in the Scouts.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
Why would anybody, including the myriad of posters in this thread, push for greater access to young boys by gay men?

I have been in the Scouts for several years. I have never, seen anything of concern. Of course, I'm only one in over two million--it happens. However, it has nothing to do with being gay. Pedophilia is something sperate.

Every week, I reaffirm the very basic ideals of Scouting with the Law, Oath, and whatnot. Having said that, I find it ridiculous that National breaks the intrinsic Scout ideas by having discriminatory practices, both for sexual orientation and religious affiliation. For an organization that bases everything on brotherhood, friendship, and cohesion, it demonstrates an incredibly deep fallacy that serves no purpose and only hurts us--the youth membership, the very people the organization exists to serve.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
It was but a decade ago that BSA was excoriated for covering up rampant child molestation by predominantly gay men.

Well I think that gay men would have a higher tendency to molest boys, just like I would think straight guys would have a higher tendency to molest girls. Kinda a misleading statement, of course it would be committed by predominantly gay men.

But, as others have pointed out, it's a policy to not allow an adult and scout to be alone. That there would pretty much stamp it out right there
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mham001
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RE: BSA Ending Its Ban On Gays.

Wed Jan 30, 2013 3:26 am

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 46):
What people do not seem to understand is that Pedophilia is not related to one's sexuality any more than domestic violence or any other criminal behavior. If you're going to worry about gays, you need to worry about breeders too.
Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 47):
However, it has nothing to do with being gay. Pedophilia is something sperate.

Actually, the facts are there. While it is true that some pedophiles will take whatever is available, a higher percentage of convicted pedophiles associate themselves as homosexuals than heterosexual. By far.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 47):
You see controversy about the molesting of boys in the Boy Scouts because there are only boys in the Scouts.

Of course, they are drawn like flies. In the interests of fairness, I am open to revisiting scandals as large as the CC and BSA involving girls. Where are they? With 97% of men associating themselves as heteros, why have we not had these widespread molestations?

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