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falstaff
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The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:01 pm

What nation will be the next rogue nation? Think about it. There was a time when Korea was one and there was no DPRK. I am sure back in 1900 nobody thought about the Koreans (those in the north) as being troublesome on the world stage. Back in 1900 I doubt anyone thought about Persia (Iran) becoming a rogue nation. Back in 1835 would anyone have imagined what the lands that were to become a unified Germany would become in 1935? in 1800 would anyone thought about the Empire of Japan in the 1920-1940s? Over the course of human history rogue nations come and go, but there are always a few around. What nations might be trouble in the next 100 years or so.
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n229nw
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 7:29 pm

This is scary stuff from the DPRK

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/vide.../north-korea-new-york-flames-video

Honestly, I know they won't act on it, but this video is rather disturbing. If they were Muslim or had oil, congress would be chomping at the bit to bomb and invade liberate them.

As for the future, it's so hard to predict. One crazy dictator can mean nothing, or a lot, depending on how the world reacts in terms of alliances and support... Pakistan is in a very precarious situation though.
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DocLightning
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:01 pm

Probably somewhere in Africa.
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hOMSaR
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:02 pm

Possibly somewhere in North America, between Canada and Mexico.
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RussianJet
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:05 pm

I'd like to say Chad, because we almost never hear anything about Chad. Nobody ever goes to Chad. Has anyone here been to Chad?
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Powerslide
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 4):
Possibly somewhere in North America, between Canada and Mexico.

California?
 
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pvjin
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:28 pm

If we are looking for traditional rogue state then around somewhere in Africa - Middle East - Central Asia axis.

However I could also see evil mega corporations gaining even more power in the US and making it something like a rogue state.

Pretty many definitions are already met:

Sponsor terrorism [x] (Or at least during cold war especialy)
Weapons of mass destruction [x]
Restricted human rights [x]
Threat to the world peace [x]
Efficient propaganda machine [x]
Authoritarian government [ ]

[Edited 2013-02-06 12:29:14]
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falstaff
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 6):
Quoting hoMsar (Reply 4):Possibly somewhere in North America, between Canada and Mexico.
California?

If Michigan's upper Penninsula ever breaks away we are in trouble.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 7):
Restricted human rights

That is always a tricky issue, because what does that really mean? Some people would argue that the a labor union's right to negotiate a contract is a human right. Some would say that gays not being allowed to marry is a violation of a human right. I consider my right to own a gun a God given right, but others would say it isn't.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Probably somewhere in Africa.

That is probably the best bet. There are a lot of wars down there most people know nothing about so a nasty dictator could pop up almost at any time.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 1):
This is scary stuff from the DPRK

I like how the photographer, who is dreaming, has a Canon camera. I guess the Japanese capitalists are ok, just not American capitalists.

The DPRK's arch enemy is the USA? That is so funny, we haven't done crap to them in 50 years. They are really hung up on the past. If they hadn't invaded the south the Americans and the UN wouldn't have had a war there.
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pvjin
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 8):
That is always a tricky issue, because what does that really mean? Some people would argue that the a labor union's right to negotiate a contract is a human right. Some would say that gays not being allowed to marry is a violation of a human right. I consider my right to own a gun a God given right, but others would say it isn't.

Well I was mainly thinking about something that no other western country I know has, restrictions to stop its citizens from travelling to certain countries.

As far as I know US government is the only western government forbidding its citizens from using money in Cuba to effectively block most of the travel there (other than from those who get special permission for that because of having relatives there and other reasons like that). Of course also other countries have taken part in many embargoes such as the one against Iran, however really none of them forbid their private citizens from travelling to these countries and using small amounts of money in them.
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falstaff
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 9):
As far as I know US government is the only western government forbidding its citizens from using money in Cuba to effectively block most of the travel there

I always thought that was weird. Americans could go to the USSR and the DDR if they wanted to and had permission from those governments. I have met Americans who visited both places in 1960s and 1970s.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 9):
Well I was mainly thinking about something that no other western country I know has, restrictions to stop its citizens from travelling to certain countries

A lot of people could care less about kind of thing. When I think of human rights I think about people be locked up for their political opinion and things like that. There are a lot of people who would like that kind of thing, but fortunately we haven't gotten to that point yet.
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RussianJet
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 10):
A lot of people could care less about kind of thing

You're right of course - a lot of people DO care a lot about it.
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Rara
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:34 pm

Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
What nation will be the next rogue nation? Think about it. There was a time when Korea was one and there was no DPRK. I am sure back in 1900 nobody thought about the Koreans (those in the north) as being troublesome on the world stage. Back in 1900 I doubt anyone thought about Persia (Iran) becoming a rogue nation. Back in 1835 would anyone have imagined what the lands that were to become a unified Germany would become in 1935? in 1800 would anyone thought about the Empire of Japan in the 1920-1940s? Over the course of human history rogue nations come and go, but there are always a few around. What nations might be trouble in the next 100 years or so.

Hmm. You've got quite a mixed bag of countries in your definition of "rogue nations" - ranging from countries which ignited total world war, over countries which severely violated human rights, to countries which simply don't do the U.S.'s bidding. And then at the end you just wrap it up with "trouble".  

Those varying definitions make it a bit hard to give suggestions.

It it's just "trouble", the U.S. could easily be a candidate for rogue nation. If something like the Iraq War, i.e. attacking a sovereign country "just cuz we can", becomes the norm rather than the exception, the U.S. could become a major global troublemaker. Another candidate would be China.

If it's genocide and human rights violations, then sub-Saharan Africa is probably the most likely. South Africa for instance has potential both to do great and to do horrible. One of the most interesting countries to watch right now.

If it's the incitement of a world war, I don't think any country could pull that off in the medium term. It's simply become too expensive. Human life used to be cheap almost anywhere in the world; it isn't anymore.

If it's resistance against the the will of the United States you're looking for, look towards Israel. Israel is quickly moving into a situation where they deny a majority of their population the right to form an own country, and deny them the right to civil participation at the same time. Right now this problem seems negligible, because this part of the population resorts to violence a lot and doesn't give us the feeling they "deserve" civil rights, but just wait till they exchange their AK-47s and intifadas for banners and peace marches. Israel could very quickly become the next South Africa - a pariah on the world stage, denying civil participation to its Arab citizens, to the dismay of enlightened governments and activists worldwide.   Sounds bizarre now - could well become reality in 30 to 40 years.
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n229nw
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 2):
Belgium.

Close, but really the far greater threat to global stability comes from Liechtenstein! Mark my words.

Actually, they have already formed a mutual defense (read "terrorist") pact with the Duchy of Grand Fenwick--which as we all know has been a major threat for a long time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7L7WLFBYR4

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):

I'd like to say Chad, because we almost never hear anything about Chad. Nobody ever goes to Chad. Has anyone here been to Chad?

or of course you may be right. It may be Chad. Frankly they have already been nefariously spreading their propaganda by having people named Chad walking around. Coincidence? I don't think so. It's part of their chemtrails experiments.
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:28 pm

If i think about a country, for an unknown reason Egypt comes to mind.
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luckyone
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
I always thought that was weird. Americans could go to the USSR and the DDR if they wanted to and had permission from those governments. I have met Americans who visited both places in 1960s and 1970s.

Without delving too far off topic, a lot of that has direct roots in the Kennedy Administration's family and business ties in a pre-1959 Cuba, and personal vendettas enacted later. The policies then became an important Cold War rally, because everybody needs an enemy, became very popular within a certain voting block and have yet to be repealed. Once a generation of voters who didn't grow up with the idea that missiles 90 miles away were somehow any worse than missiles a thousand miles away that could still kill you, I'm sure the policies will be overturned.
 
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:01 am

This is not intended as a self gloss, but as I point out in my recent book, the notion of a "rogue nation" is problematic, if not worthless, as an analytical concept because it is a metaphor and, like many metaphors, is subject to multiple interpretations rendering it impossible to measure in any meaningful way. The evidence for this is manifest in the posts on this thread wherein there is disagreement as to what constitutes a rogue nation and what countries might qualify to be put in that category. My research confirms what is laid out in this thread which is that scholars of politics and international relations do not agree on what is meant by the term "rogue nation." The term is employed inconsistently in both academic writing on the subject as well as journalistic coverage and governmental pronouncements. In short, there is no agreement in academic or governmental circles as to what qualifies as a "rogue nation" and therefore it is at best a term of convenience, not to mention a pointless concept in scholarly research, and at worst a tool of governmental propaganda.
 
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:37 am

While many countries support the US stance on North Korea and to some extant Iran, they mainly do it because it doesn't cost them much and they'd rather be on the US side. Most people don't care at all about those countries and think they're really a source of problems. I just watched a documentary about the 2012 US elections and you could see a rabid Romney supporter talking about nuking Mecca to spite Iran...only in the US !
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kiwiinoz
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:29 am

New Zealand. Those Hobbits that used to be a silent minority have really gained a following as a result of the Peter Jackson documentaries on their lifestyle. More than likely, they will take power at the next election. If that happens, we're all screwed.
 
rfields5421
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 5):
Quoting hoMsar (Reply 4):Possibly somewhere in North America, between Canada and Mexico.
California?

While Texas comes to mind, it is really Arizona which appears to want to replace the US federal government with their own version of government.
 
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
I guess the Japanese capitalists are ok, just not American capitalists.

American capitalists don't make cameras. What do Americans actually make in terms of consumer products apart from cars? I own a fair number of products made by American comanies but nothing that was actually built in America.
 
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Aesma
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 5:52 pm

Well some high tech chip manufacturing is still done in the US. Last year saw the opening of the new, latest tech GlobalFoundries plant in Malta, New York. GlobalFoundries builds AMD CPUs and graphic chips. Intel has also most of its plants in the US, including the latest tech. At the end of the day these plants are so expensive to build (you can't allow dust in them, at all) that it doesn't make much difference where you build them. Final assembly is often overseas, though. And you can't build these plants without Japanese optical technology.
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 9):
I have met Americans who visited both places in 1960s and 1970s.


I did it in the 2000s.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 8):
As far as I know US government is the only western government forbidding its citizens from using money in Cuba to effectively block most of the travel there (other than from those who get special permission for that because of having relatives there and other reasons like that).



Then there are outlaws like me that visited the place anyway and had a great time!   

Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
What nations might be trouble in the next 100 years or so.


The new governments the current US administration help set up in Libya and Egypt is becoming a problem already.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 7):
The DPRK's arch enemy is the USA? That is so funny, we haven't done crap to them in 50 years.


At least Kim Jong Il had great taste in cars and went out in style with a car made just 20 miles away from your home right there in Wixom, Michigan.  
...



Quoting pvjin (Reply 8):
Well I was mainly thinking about something that no other western country I know has, restrictions to stop its citizens from travelling to certain countries.


...and that makes the US a rouge nation?   
I think the embargo is stupid but many of us go anyway. Those who get in trouble are slapped with a fine. There is no stoning, caning, beheadings or anything of that sort for going to Cuba.
That said, that embargo needs to be lifted.
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falstaff
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 18):
it is really Arizona which appears to want to replace the US federal government with their own version of government

They only want to enforce the laws the federal government won't enforce.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
At least Kim Jong Il had great taste in cars and went out in style with a car made just 20 miles away from your home right there in Wixom, Michigan.

Yes he did. A lot of dictators have great taste when it comes to cars. Saddam Hussein and Nicolae Ceausescu also come to mind for great car collections.
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pvjin
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:25 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 21):
...and that makes the US a rouge nation?   

No, but rogue states typically do restrict travel of their citizens. Of course I'm not saying that United States is a rogue state already, but if it some day went into a bit less democratic direction it would have the potential to be one.
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YVRLTN
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:58 am

Im going for Scotland and Quebec  
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falstaff
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 1:08 pm

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 24):
Quebec

I am sure there are those in Quebec that would like to be.
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soon7x7
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:13 pm

Quoting hoMsar (Reply 3):
Possibly somewhere in North America, between Canada and Mexico.

Bingo!,...sort of sounds like....................................us?! The recent past demeanor of America IMHO seems to fit the description. Like financial institutions that are touted as "too big to fail"...lets not underestimate a large nation that is "too big to go rogue". We are ruled by a leadership that pretends the Constitution is a relic of the past. If so, then what replaces it?
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 2:46 pm

My vote goes to Zimbabwe

How can they leave Robert Mugabe alone and name Ahamadinejad the world's # 1 black sheep?

Robert Mugabe is the most atrocious, most cruel and most corrupt dictator living on planet Earth.

He makes any other alive dictators (Assad, the Kim and others) look pale in comparison.

 
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AirPacific747
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 3:56 pm

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 27):

But Zimbabwe is already a rogue nation, is it not?
 
Superfly
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
I'm not saying that United States is a rogue state already,



You're implying that it's going in that direction.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
if it some day went into a bit less democratic direction it would have the potential to be one.


Just like any other nation.
No need to worry. Mr. "hope & change" will rid us of our evils and make us like a European/Islamic utopia.
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pvjin
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:16 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
You're implying that it's going in that direction.

Well that depends from if Americans vote a republican president in next elections or not. Both last major wars where US was involved were started by a Republican president and as they care only about money I would see them giving more and more freedoms and powers to evil mega companies.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
No need to worry. Mr. "hope & change" will rid us of our evils and make us like a European/Islamic utopia.

Changes are sometimes needed to make world a better place. And I'm not exactly fan of uneducated immigrants flowing to Europe from poor conservative Muslim countries, I would rather see them staying in their own countries.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:25 am

Quoting falstaff (Thread starter):
What nation will be the next rogue nation?

Alaska. Sara Palin wrote a book about it.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 15):

If it makes money, it's not pointless, right?
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pu
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting Rara (Reply 11):
Another candidate would be China.

I rarely believe that the thundering herd of conventional wisdom is correct, and I especially reject the notion of China ever obtaining superpower status.

....but.....

if the average person who loyally repeats what they hear elsewhere is right and China goes unhindered ever upward and more powerful for ~30 years....YES, China will bring a new meaning to rogue nation as they refuse to even give lip-service to concepts like human rights and a free press. The whiners complaining about the world's benevolent current superpower will dearly wish for the times when a democracy ran the show versus a future of Chinese authoritarian dominance.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
you could see a rabid Romney supporter talking about nuking Mecca to spite Iran...only in the US !

The client voters of the American Right, namely rural rednecks and grumpy old men, have been convincingly manipulated to believe that many forces with no possible ability to harm America are a life-threatening enemy. A toxic combination of defense contrators, Israeli supporters and oil men rely on the fear North Korea and Iran can bring to Kansas farmers and Florida car mechanics. (of course the Left has their client voters as well)




Pu
 
luckyone
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 30):
Well that depends from if Americans vote a republican president in next elections or not. Both last major wars where US was involved were started by a Republican presiden

If you want to take that route, take note. When the United States entered both World Wars a Democrat was in the White House (Wilson and Roosevelt, respectively). It was a Democrat who made the decision to drop the Atomic Bomb (Truman). It was a Democrat who involved the United States (88% of UN troops in Korea were American) in a domestic conflict in Korea (Truman again). It was two Democrats who escalated a domestic conflict in Vietnam into notoriety (Kennedy and Johnson), and a Republican who eventually pulled it down (Nixon and Ford). It was a Democrat who put US troops in Somalia, a domestic conflict in the Balkans, bombed Afghanistan and Sudan, and then bombed Iraq in an attempt to distract the American public from his endeavors to insert a cigar into a fat girl's vagina (Clinton). And it was a Democrat who sent American forces into what was ultimately a domestic conflict in Libya (That would be Mr. Obama and why isn't he doing the same in the far nastier Syria? Oh right, no oil there. Doesn't that sound familiar????). In short, your rationale on that point needs fine-tuning.

[Edited 2013-02-09 10:07:17]
 
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OA260
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:20 pm

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 13):
If i think about a country, for an unknown reason Egypt comes to mind.

Yep my choice too. Sadly Egypt is going to hell in terms of democracy and rights. They just invited their Iranian friend for a visit. Its clear what kind of company they intend to keep in future! Somehow Mubarak doesnt seem such a bad guy at all !
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting Pu (Reply 32):
I rarely believe that the thundering herd of conventional wisdom is correct, and I especially reject the notion of China ever obtaining superpower status.

I used to reject them being stronger than the US anytime soon. Not being cocky or anything, but that is how I truly felt. I heard everyone going "hurr durr they have so many more troops" like that matters, or "oh you guys can't even beat Iraq" or some crap like that. We have the technology edge on them

But I hear all the time about hackers stealing blueprints to our fighters and other weapons. The supposedly have a stealth fighter that is better than ours. These are just rumors, but I wouldn't be surprised to see them have a larger military AND the technology to be a super power, thanks to their engineers, scientists, and hackers to close the gap.

What I reject is why we are treating them like they're the next big enemy. Why? Why are we going down that road already? I know they have some questionable human rights problems, and they are a quasi-communist state (scary?) but I don't think they'll automatically be our enemy if we don't treat them like our enemy right now...
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Kiwirob
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:23 pm

I'm going to go with Venice, once they gain independence form lame duck Italy they'll go rogue.
 
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pvjin
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:08 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 33):
In short, your rationale on that point needs fine-tuning.

Yeah I guess you are right that both Republicans and Democrats have started fair share of wars, I was mainly thinking a democrat that would be a bit like Obama, somebody who would rather try to take a democratic way and start a war only if there's no other option.

And of course in Libya obama did the right thing as there people themselves started the revolution, completely different thing than starting a war against total nation like George W Bush did and caused a huge mess by doing that.

I think Obama should send troops to Syria too as also there people themselves started the revolution.

So shall we say in the end it's not that much about which part the US president is from but about their personal ideas of what US foreign policy should be like. I hope there will never ever be another madman like George W Bush in power.
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:28 pm

Greece, Spain, Egypt, Israel, South Africa, Argentina, Russia could - I would think that it will be a more developed country that is going backwards this time around rather than a less developed one trying to be upwardly mobile. One that needs an ideology change just to survive... . that usually spells trouble...

Quoting OA260 (Reply 34):
Somehow Mubarak doesnt seem such a bad guy at all !

All the uprisings have done anywhere is replace the scum with more scum. They will never learn.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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n229nw
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:58 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 34):
Sadly Egypt is going to hell in terms of democracy and rights.

Honestly, I see a country going through a series of difficult and dangerous transitions. But I think the fact that there are constant protests, and awareness both within the country and abroad of what is going on there, means that Egypt is NOT going to slide into any kind of rogue status...nor even back into Mubarak-era domestic oppression. I expect a bunch more ups and downs though before everything stabilizes. I remain cautiously optimistic.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 38):
All the uprisings have done anywhere is replace the scum with more scum. They will never learn.

That's kind of how most revolutions have been historically, everywhere. Russia didn't get it right suddenly in 1917, nor France in 1789. I'd rather have Morsi in Egypt right now than Robespierre or even Napoleon (Actually, come to think of it Napoleon already tried in Egypt! He just tried to steal all their stuff and take it back to France...)
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PHX787
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:28 pm

Quoting Powerslide (Reply 5):
Quoting hoMsar (Reply 4):
Possibly somewhere in North America, between Canada and Mexico.

California?

                  And they aren't rogue now?

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 38):
Greece, Spain, Egypt, Israel, South Africa, Argentina, Russia could

OK let me go through that and provide some feedback....
Greece: If the gvt doesn't get their sh~t together, yes they can turn into some overrun anarchist state and could degenerate to a totalitarian regime.
Spain- No way. They're in the crapper but they're coming back out.
Egypt-- if Morsi keeps getting more "power" and keeps making threats, yes I see them as being an issue.
Israel...the back and forth between Iran is nothing new, but they won't do anything stupid unless they get attacked first.
South Africa---may I ask why?
Argentina....well from a European perspective I can see it, but in all realities they're harmless.
Russia......ehhhhhhh I don't know it's all hype. I used to actually like Putin a lot until he became power-hungry.
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luckyone
Posts: 2280
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:50 pm

RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:06 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
Yeah I guess you are right that both Republicans and Democrats have started fair share of wars, I was mainly thinking a democrat that would be a bit like Obama, somebody who would rather try to take a democratic way and start a war only if there's no other option.

I agree that a person with that motivation is desirable.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
I hope there will never ever be another madman like George W Bush in power.

Blameless he is not, but you cannot put all of the blame with him. I am old enough to remember, and I breathed the same air as everybody else. The WMD "crisis" began in the Clinton administration. Those December 1998 bombs were ostensibly about Iraqi WMDs. I have vivid memories of TLC documentaries, CNN reports, and others of the like in the mid to late 1990's fear-mongering about that obscure term "WMD." Then 9-11 happened and all hell broke loose (one could argue that until 9-11 nobody had any interest in starting a war in Afghanistan, much like Pearl Harbor in 1941). In the buildup to the war with Iraq, 40% of House Democrats and over 50% of Senate Democrats voted in favor of military action against Iraq. It took a team to make Iraq happen, so let's not kid ourselves that was it was all big bad Dubya, or that the POTUS really has that much power to work with.

[Edited 2013-02-09 16:08:29]
 
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pu
Posts: 1316
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:08 am

RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 12:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):

But I hear all the time about hackers stealing blueprints to our fighters and other weapons. The supposedly have a stealth fighter that is better than ours.

Technology by theft, yes, but Chinese scientific prowess is limited. There have only been 9 Chinese Nobel laureates and 6 in a scientific discipline...the USA has over 300 Nobel prize winners and wins a science almost every year. Like the old Soviet Union and for the same reasons, China can here and there outdo a healthy America in technology, but overall there is no contest. I expect China to have a civil war and possibly devolve into 3 or so states as soon as the Chinese realise they can bring down the government.

Owning Google is much more important than owning the better stealth fighter.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 35):
but I don't think they'll automatically be our enemy if we don't treat them like our enemy right now...

Powerful internal forces in both countries thrive on the necessity of large external threats to keep them in power.

Plus, if resources like arable land, oil and fresh water become as precious as some writers postulate, China will have no scruples about engulfing its neighbours as necessary....this could lead to world war.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 39):

Russia didn't get it right suddenly in 1917

Russia and all of Africa never get it right. At least by our standards of what is right.




Pu
 
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aerorobnz
Posts: 7412
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2001 3:43 pm

RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:19 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 40):
South Africa---may I ask why?

Sure. The divide between ethnicities still is as divisive as ever, the gulf between a rich minority and poor majority is ever increasing, as is violent crime, Jacob Zuma supports Mugabe, sends hims money, support and things like helicopters which allows him to survive in the way he does, corruption everywhere is rife. I can see it becoming another Zimbabwe style rogue nation which squanders natural advantages and screws the minorities who own stuff to share out the wealth as Mugabe did with the former Rhodesia. Then allow the corruption to screw it up and 30 years and Sth Africa has become the new Zim.
Flown to 120 Airports in 44 Countries on 73 Operators. Visited 55 Countries and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
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pvjin
Posts: 2928
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:46 pm

Hmm got to agree with South Africa, that country seems to be so incredibly messed up with all the corruption &violence and 1/3 of its male population being so messed up that they even commit rape.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/25/south-african-rape-survey
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
Superfly
Posts: 37735
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RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting luckyone (Reply 41):
In the buildup to the war with Iraq, 40% of House Democrats and over 50% of Senate Democrats voted in favor of military action against Iraq. It took a team to make Iraq happen, so let's not kid ourselves that was it was all big bad Dubya, or that the POTUS really has that much power to work with.



That is true and even had the support from Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton. She voted with "conviction" and a smile that led to over 4,000 deaths or our's and allied soldiers and tens of thousands of innocent children. She could very well become the next President of the United States too. Will she receive any hatred directed at her for her vote in favor of that war? Nope. Many will be in love with the idea of having the first female President. To some, having the first ( fill in the blank ) President trumps all other priorities.
Sad really.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkS9y5t0tR0

Quoting luckyone (Reply 33):
then bombed Iraq in an attempt to distract the American public from his endeavors to insert a cigar into a fat girl's vagina

           
Bring back the Concorde
 
LMP737
Posts: 4800
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:47 pm

Maybe Switzerland? Just sayin.  
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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OA260
Posts: 20983
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:28 pm

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 40):
Greece: If the gvt doesn't get their sh~t together, yes they can turn into some overrun anarchist state and could degenerate to a totalitarian regime.

Not gonna happen don't believe the media you watch. Things have stabilised dramatically in Greece even in the last few weeks. The strikes and prostests are minute compared to this time last year. Even the people have turned against the strikers as shown in the recent metro strikes.

The USA is more at risk of going into civil war over gun control than Greece becoming a rogue nation.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: The Next Rogue Nation?

Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:34 pm

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 46):
Maybe Switzerland? Just sayin.

What do you mean 'maybe'? They already are!   
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