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JoePatroni707
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Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:13 pm

In last nights speech, Obama stated he wanted to raise the minimum wage to $9.00 per hour. I for one think this is a huge mistake was a lot of small businesses could not afford to do this, and be forced to reduce headcount leading to more unemployment making matters worse.

I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

I am in the SF bay area and the "living wage" is nearly $11.00, which was forced many companies to lay off people to afford the higher wages.

Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.
 
DFWHeavy
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:19 pm

He doesn't know economics 101 of capitalism and the free market economy. There will ALWAYS be some unemployment (though it can get down to the 3-4% range) and you can raise the minimum wage all you want, but prices will just go up to compensate for it. There will ALWAYS be people at the bottom. Minimum wage could be raised to $100 an hour and the people that make that minimum wage will be in the same boat they are now.


"Head knocking against the wall" with these asinine policies.
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cmf
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

Great utopian theory. There was a time not that long ago when it was like that. It wasn't fun.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

If you can't pay enough to provide reasonable living you should not be in business. All you are doing is dragging everyone down.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

So with higher wages, how come it hasn't spelled economic disaster for our gas stations in comparison to neighboring states?
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Stabilator
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:46 pm

Of course he does. It's a main goal of his party to see the min wage rise. Don't see it happening, however.
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
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STT757
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas.

Same here in New Jersey, and our prices are cheaper than all but four States in the Nation.
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mt99
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:00 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
minimum wage to $9.00 per hour.

There are some GOP states whose minimum wage is higher than the federal one.

www.dol.gov/whd/minwage/america.htm

Interesting map - really...
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Venus6971
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:18 pm

He can raise the minimum all he wants. All it will do is make the employers pass on costs to the consumer, lower his payroll and cut hours to the remaining employees especially if is a major corporation like McDonald's or and other chain store that answers to shareholders and not their employees and customers. It seems every time Washington opens its mouth about business the ranks of the part time and unemployed rise. It will be a harder in the future to find full time entry level work.
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WestJet747
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:50 pm

I never gave a thought to minimum wage in the US until seeing this thread and I'm surprised how low it is! Here it is $10.25, and nobody is shutting their doors because the raises.

But with that said, Obama isn't solving the underlying problem. The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees. Raising minimum wage to $9 won't have a positive impact (nor will it have a disastrous effect that some people are suggesting).

Also, Boehner needs to crack a smile once in a while. I've never seen a more sour-faced man in my life than I did during the SOTU last night. Can't be good for his health to be so pissed off all the time. Perhaps a few less trips to the tanning salon would help as well... 
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I for one do now belive the government should have the right to tell any business owner how much to pay his emlployees. I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

I generally promote a total free market economy, but in this instance we would have to tread incredibly lightly.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas
Quoting STT757 (Reply 6):
Same here in New Jersey

That's absolutely asinine. What is the justification for these laws?!
Flying refined.
 
Stabilator
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees

  
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:06 pm

The "minimum wage" was never intended to be a living wage, perhaps. But these days, when Wal Mart is the biggest employer in some towns and entire families' wages are dependent on what essentially amount to minimum-wage jobs, the minimum wage has become the de facto living wage for these people.

We're not in the 1950s anymore. Back then, a college student could work a part-time summer job and pay for his entire tuition, books, room and board.

Nowadays, the jobs that sustained the middle class are leaving (and have been for a few decades now). The only jobs left for lots of people are these minimum-wage jobs.

It completely sucks, but that's the way it is. Unless and until this fact changes, then you can't keep treating the minimum wage as if it's just for part-time college students looking for extra spending money.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
That's absolutely asinine. What is the justification for these laws?!

Jobs is the usual reason given these days, but Oregon law actually codifies 17 separate reasons for banning self-dispensing of gasoline in the state:

480.315 Policy. The Legislative Assembly declares that, except as provided in ORS 480.345 to 480.385, it is in the public interest to maintain a prohibition on the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail. The Legislative Assembly finds and declares that:

(1) The dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by dispensers properly trained in appropriate safety procedures reduces fire hazards directly associated with the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids;

(2) Appropriate safety standards often are unenforceable at retail self-service stations in other states because cashiers are often unable to maintain a clear view of and give undivided attention to the dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by customers;

(3) Higher liability insurance rates charged to retail self-service stations reflect the dangers posed to customers when they leave their vehicles to dispense Class 1 flammable liquids, such as the increased risk of crime and the increased risk of personal injury resulting from slipping on slick surfaces;

(4) The dangers of crime and slick surfaces described in subsection (3) of this section are enhanced because Oregon’s weather is uniquely adverse, causing wet pavement and reduced visibility;

(5) The dangers described in subsection (3) of this section are heightened when the customer is a senior citizen or has a disability, especially if the customer uses a mobility aid, such as a wheelchair, walker, cane or crutches;

(6) Attempts by other states to require the providing of aid to senior citizens and persons with disabilities in the self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids at retail have failed, and therefore, senior citizens and persons with disabilities must pay the higher costs of full service;

(7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;

(8) The hazard described in subsection (7) of this section is heightened when the customer is pregnant;

(9) The exposure to Class 1 flammable liquids through dispensing should, in general, be limited to as few individuals as possible, such as gasoline station owners and their employees or other trained and certified dispensers;

(10) The typical practice of charging significantly higher prices for full-service fuel dispensing in states where self-service is permitted at retail:
(a) Discriminates against customers with lower incomes, who are under greater economic pressure to subject themselves to the inconvenience and hazards of self-service;
(b) Discriminates against customers who are elderly or have disabilities who are unable to serve themselves and so must pay the significantly higher prices; and
(c) Increases self-service dispensing and thereby decreases maintenance checks by attendants, which results in neglect of maintenance, endangering both the customer and other motorists and resulting in unnecessary and costly repairs;

(11) The increased use of self-service at retail in other states has contributed to diminishing the availability of automotive repair facilities at gasoline stations;

(12) Self-service dispensing at retail in other states does not provide a sustained reduction in fuel prices charged to customers;

(13) A general prohibition of self-service dispensing of Class 1 flammable liquids by the general public promotes public welfare by providing increased safety and convenience without causing economic harm to the public in general;

(14) Self-service dispensing at retail contributes to unemployment, particularly among young people;

(15) Self-service dispensing at retail presents a health hazard and unreasonable discomfort to persons with disabilities, elderly persons, small children and those susceptible to respiratory diseases;

(16) The federal Americans with Disabilities Act, Public Law 101-336, requires that equal access be provided to persons with disabilities at retail gasoline stations; and

(17) Small children left unattended when customers leave to make payment at retail self-service stations creates a dangerous situation.
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I am in the SF bay area and the "living wage" is nearly $11.00, which was forced many companies to lay off people to afford the higher wages.

Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster

Together, they are an added cost of doing business. The reality is, doing business requires making money, and most business owners are pretty smart people. You can only raise your prices so much in this economy before demand begins to fall, so you have to balance price increases with other measures. In the case of labor, you are going to mitigate the increases by reducing hours, gaining efficiencies, and avoiding added burdens such as ObamaCare.

The end result will be a lot more people working, but a lot less of them working full-time.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

So with higher wages, how come it hasn't spelled economic disaster for our gas stations in comparison to neighboring states?

1. Washington state has one of - if not the - highest gas taxes in the country, at 37.5 cents per gallon. Oregon is at 30 cents, so even adding in the cost of labor for pumping it might still come out a wash. There are also many people in Washington who work in Portland and who probably will fuel up there if it's a nickel a gallon less.

2. You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative. If McDonald's raises the price of a Big Mac, Kohl's raises the price of underwear, or Starbucks raises the price of coffee, I have options. But I can't get gas from Joe's Espresso, Fuel, and Towing without paying all of the same things that Chevron charges.

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 11):
We're not in the 1950s anymore. Back then, a college student could work a part-time summer job and pay for his entire tuition, books, room and board.

And that says as much about the rising cost of college as it does about the need for a rise in the minimum wage.

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cmf
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 10):
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Not enough right wingers understand that it is what many companies pay full time employees.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
Flighty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 4):
Hmm, here in Oregon, it's illegal to pump your own gas. It's estimated that there are the equivalent of 20K or more full-time jobs maintained due to having this "unnecessary" service. Yet our gas doesn't cost any more than it does in Washington or California, even though wages at gas stations are higher than elsewhere due to having gas jockeys employed. We also don't have an appreciable difference in the number of gas stations per capita/per car/per miles driven.

It's an unnecessary cost. It is the same thing as mailing welfare checks to those same guys. You say you don't notice the cost of that. Okay. But it's there. The reality is, you are paying a tax and receiving nothing of value for it. The model is NOT promising.

Edit: Just want to add, my parents just came back from Cuba. They also have trouble creating prosperity out of pure government planned economics. When government makes these decisions for us, the decisions aren't very good. Investment in useful activities that improves people's lives goes down. Motivation to succeed goes down. Society ends up without a business sector -- meaning, people do nothing you'd be willing to pay them for.

[Edited 2013-02-13 09:29:09]
 
BN747
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:25 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 10):
Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
The idea of "minimum wage" never designed to be a living wage. It was designed so that part-timers, students, etc. weren't taken advantage of because they weren't full-time employees


Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Oh well .. in that case, let's just put things back in there proper place shall we...

...women were meant to stay at home, not taking up a job that man could have.

And none of this, working two jobs to make ends meet..one job will do.
That job not paying enough to make ends meet??? Too bad for you, keep looking ...because this
..

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 1):
Minimum wage could be raised to $100 an hour ...

Is out there for you somewhere... but wait..

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 1):
...and the people that make that minimum wage will be in the same boat they are now.

...oh then never mind, that's just not going to do you any good, is it?


That's what it was 'meant to be' is an acceptable answer??? Society 30 years ago was meant to be something else too and guess what it's completely different 30 years later - meaning, times have changed, good lord!

If only common sense stood a chance against insanity..

How is it that some seriously twisted mindsets have no problem with fuel prices rising exponentially (because the oil companies MUST maintain profit levels), distribution cost continually on the increase, warehousing cost must rise along with the steady climb of production cost resulting in inflated rates and prices for virtually everything sold...but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

This is hilarious, most of you are 9-5 clock punchers (or living of your parents - or worse gov't bennies) and here demanding that people settle for less while completely ignoring (and wholly excepting) unjustifiable skyrocketing prices on nearly everything you consume?

How on earth do you keep from falling over head first?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:26 pm

While I will agree with many that the minimum wage is not something that should be treated as the wage for living, keep in mind something that the OP conveniently left out:

Quote:
In fact, working folks shouldn’t have to wait year after year for the minimum wage to go up while CEO pay has never been higher. So here’s an idea that Governor Romney and I actually agreed on last year: let’s tie the minimum wage to the cost of living, so that it finally becomes a wage you can live on.

Notice the two bold areas:
1) If a company can afford to give its CEO millions upon millions in benefits, it can certainly afford to give its employees a more decent wage. When a CEO makes millions in salary, ask yourself: does a CEO really need all the bonuses? If profits for companies are going up, then why aren't the profits among all the workforce?

2) Of course, if a President Romney had said this, then perhaps this thread would be nonexistent or in support of the policy.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I dont think there should be any minimum wage laws at all, and it should be up to the free market to determine wages.

If we did this, then unemployment would certainly drop but wages would be a fraction of what they are now. If a free market decides the minimum wage, I'll bet you anything that a board of directors locked up in a building would decide to keep the wages low and split the profits among themselves. Free market supporters give too much credit to the integrity of big executives. We were told to give millionaires a tax rate so that they create jobs. It's been 10 years since the Bush tax cuts were enacted. Where did employment go?
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Flighty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

People are allowed to ask for and get whatever wage they want. If you want $100/hr I guarantee there are jobs that will pay $100/hr. Lots of them. Millions of people make $100/hr.

People making $7 now seeking $9 now will be either losing their job or getting $9... at the expense of the poor guy or gal who was laid off. Most likely, robotics will see a boost, further reducing the need for low skill workers.

It's just not a solution that helps ANY group of people. The $7 group overall will not be helped. Certain individuals will be... and others will be hurt.

If people are unwilling to work for under $16, let them quit! Nobody is forcing them to work. Or they can apply for a $16/hr job with the necessary skills. Plenty of Wal Mart employees make $16/hr and much, much more.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
Washington state has one of - if not the - highest gas taxes in the country, at 37.5 cents per gallon.

Offset by higher other taxes, such as income and higher property taxes in Oregon. WA has a sales tax to cover what OR collects via other means. CA gas taxes are about on par with WA. Regardless, the difference in pricing just on a direct tax basis is barely $1-$1.50 per fill-up.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 13):
You NEED gas, and there is NO alternative.

Sure there is, you can always drive less, buy at a more competitively priced station, get a more economical car ...
International Homo of Mystery
 
L-188
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:39 pm

I have to wonder if this proposal is Obama's way of compensating those that will be going to part time next year when Obummercare take effect and companies scramble to get under the 50 full time employee limit.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
BN747
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 18):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
but heaven forbid a person be able to obtain or seek a reasonable minimum wage?

People are allowed to ask for and get whatever wage they want. If you want $100/hr I guarantee there are jobs that will pay $100/hr. Lots of them. Millions of people make $100/hr.

Yes, I know..I'm above that. But that's not point.

My point is this..

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 17):
If a company can afford to give its CEO millions upon millions in benefits, it can certainly afford to give its employees a more decent wage. When a CEO makes millions in salary, ask yourself: does a CEO really need all the bonuses? If profits for companies are going up, then why aren't the profits among all the workforce?

$100 an hour is certainly a far cry from 'reasonable minimum wage'.. but what the Prez was proposing, $11 I believe seems very reasonable in the face of what's been going on in this country. The rest of the developing nations has CEO average pay at 10-12 x ratio vs that of the average worker...in America it's 35X and more. And the disparity shows no sign of letting up.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 15):
my parents just came back from Cuba. They also have trouble creating prosperity out of pure government planned economics.

A Federal Minimum Wage is not equal to a planned economy. The minimum wage could be $5 or $10, and it will still be business owners, not the gov't, who decide on what jobs to hire people to fill, their expected productivity, and what benefits to offer.
International Homo of Mystery
 
DFWHeavy
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:00 pm

I was ascertaining a point by using the "$100/Hr". If it goes to $11, $15 or whatever doesn't matter. Prices will rise and those making the minimum wage will still be at the bottom scraping by. If you aren't happy making that pay, educate yourself and find a higher paying position.

Why can't people learn to take care of themselves and rely on others and the government so much. Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.
Christopher W Slovacek
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 24):
Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.

Considering how many slave owners were among them ...

(Not every analogy stands the test of time.)
International Homo of Mystery
 
BN747
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 24):
Why can't people learn to take care of themselves and rely on others and the government so much. Our founding fathers would be appalled with what is going on today.

..exactly, as their slaves were making them rich...

Concept of minimum wage making sense yet, or are you still advocating everyone just become CEOs and be happy?

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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hOMSaR
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:29 pm

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 24):
educate yourself and find a higher paying position.

Of course, how easy that is.

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 11):
We're not in the 1950s anymore. Back then, a college student could work a part-time summer job and pay for his entire tuition, books, room and board.

As noted, education expenses have skyrocketed, and even college graduates and other well-educated people have been struggling to find jobs.

Of course, as economics teaches us, the more supply of "educated" people in the labor market, the lower the wages for the "higher-paying positions" will be over time. You'll still have more people competing for relatively few jobs. Which means some folks are going to wind up without jobs, or with jobs much lower than their abilities.

This actually happened a few years ago. There were anecdotes (granted, just anecdotes, I don't have full data right now) of well-educated folks who had good-paying jobs and lost those jobs when the economy tanked. Some were so desperate that they went looking for any low-paying job they could find. I guess the real answer was that they should just go educate themselves some more, and then they could find a better job, right?
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Mir
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 11):
It completely sucks, but that's the way it is. Unless and until this fact changes, then you can't keep treating the minimum wage as if it's just for part-time college students looking for extra spending money.

That's true, but I'm still not sold on the idea that you should be above the poverty line on a minimum wage job. But one thing that we should definitely do is tie the minimum wage to inflation or the cost of living.

-Mir
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STT757
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:21 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
That's absolutely asinine. What is the justification for these laws?!

Safety.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 7:44 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Thanks for posting AeroWesty.

You're welcome!

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
(7) Exposure to toxic fumes represents a health hazard to customers dispensing Class 1 flammable liquids;

So then why don't the station attendants wear masks if they're around it all day?

Hey now, you're dealing with a service that's almost an institution now. Who says it has to be logical? 

I will say this though, once you get used to having your gas pumped for you, it's a rather nice little luxury. Almost all of it is "mini-serv" though, so you don't get your oil and air checked, etc. I only know of one real full-service gas station, but not a single one where they still do car repairs like the olden days.
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pvjin
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:00 pm

Good idea, healthy amount of socialism will bring the United States to this century and make it a better place for a human to live in.

I would also love to see more taxes for the rich, progressive taxing is awesome. Nobody should have need to earn more than a couple of millions of dollars.

Then you need only free universities and proper healthcare system available to everyone and paid by the government, then you could enjoy the welfare and life quality we have in here Europe.   

And don't worry about what it costs, just raise taxes and cut from completely useless military spending. Nobody is going to attack you anyway.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
RussianJet
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:12 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 37):
Good idea, healthy amount of socialism will bring the United States to this century and make it a better place for a human to live in.

  

Amazing to see the level of fear created by the prospect of not being able to just leech off the super-low-paid.

One well-paid and looked-after worker held to high productive standards is worth five workers who know their employer pays them dog turds and couldn't give a rat's arse about them. Don't let that ruin your anti-socialist, Obama's a communist scare stories though. After all, it's wonderful entertainment.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
BN747
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 8:39 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 16):
This is hilarious, most of you are 9-5 clock punchers (or living of your parents - or worse gov't bennies) and here demanding that people settle for less while completely ignoring (and wholly excepting) unjustifiable skyrocketing prices on nearly everything you consume?

How on earth do you keep from falling over head first?

Great generalization there. I'm actually a student, I've made only minimum wage, and for some people it is definitely overpaying them.

And while you are soooooo certain that you're going to get that great education, and make 'all the right choices' then secure that great paying job and fly off into Donald Trump orbit...

I just wish you could have 'a shelter lunch' with former (now homeless) pilots, people with masters degrees in all sorts of occupations who lost their homes and everything else they own thru corporate mismanagement, buyouts, downsizing, mergers and acquisitions and anything else I'm missing.

As a student, I'm not trying to spook you.. but the biggest mistake most young people make is 'that can't happen to me..' ... those people who lost everything, thought that too. Just look around.

How many pilots are moonlighting to care for their families? how many cops take on security jobs at supplement income..it just goes on and on.

One thing is for certain.. either wages remain exceptionally low vs skyhigh CEO pay with no limit in sight will yield extraordinary large poor class than today or a higher minimum wage and closer to commensurate CEO salaries* - leads to a more sustained middle class keeping the poor class numbers from spiraling out of control.

* by that I mean, the man or woman who builds up his own business should be able to pay himself as much as he or she wants or thinks to be fair.

Versus a Ivy Legacy stepping to a public traded company like AA or GM... well 'he did not build' that.. he's just a place holder - cap those dudes because their arrival was anticipated since their days as a freshman at Whatever U.
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:00 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 39):
Well up here it is customary to tip the station attendant who pumps your gas (and often will do your windows). Do you guys still tip them then?

Not at each visit. The kids at my local Texaco usually work while they're attending school, so they aren't too transient. One guy is on his third year now, I think it is. I give them GCs at Christmas—nothing more than $20 for iTunes or something.
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brilondon
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:11 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 14):

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 10):
Not enough liberals and people in general understand this.

Not enough right wingers understand that it is what many companies pay full time employees.

I did not realize how little the wages are in the States. I certainly don't pay my employee that little. I should evaluate their compensation, although they do have to live. I might add that she also gets benefits on top of her salary.
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WarRI1
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 1:28 am

http://www.epi.org/publication/state...e_declining_value_of_minimum_wage/


How fair is this? I agree with Obama, people are getting screwed here. An old practice in this world. Exploitation of the workers.
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Geezer
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:08 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):
Jobs is the usual reason given these days, but Oregon law actually codifies 17 separate reasons for banning self-dispensing of gasoline in the state:

Now that we know what the "law" relative to pumping gasoline in the state of Oregon is.....let me ask you this;
Do you have ANY credible statistics showing that there are any fewer fires started while cars are being "gassed up" in Oregon, than in any OTHER state ?

In addition.......while I am very aware of the inherent, potential dangers involved in pumping gasoline, I'm also just as aware of the potential dangers involved in DRIVING all those cars, once they are "fueled up"; so are the liberal law-makers in Oregon going to "pass a law" requiring that everyone MUST have their cars driven by some "professional driver", (who MUST be paid at least $11 per hour ?)

Also.......do you have any credible statistics showing that "Oregonions" have any better driving records than do drivers in any other state ?

I think what the state of Oregon is about to find out is.........there are a hell of a lot of places to live in the U.S., OTHER than Oregon; I'll even go a bit further; now that I'm "aware" of that idiotic law, I will no longer set foot in the state of Oregon; so when I go to Seattle the next time, I'll just travel I-90 across Idaho and into Washington State, and just "pretend" that Oregon doesn't exist !


As for New Jersey.......I haven't been there since 1997, but unless there have been an awful lot of changes made since then........you'll have to show me documented PROOF that N.J. has a law against people pumping their own gas !
Let's face it; are "average" Americans too stupid, too ignorant, too careless, too irresponsible to pump their own gasoline ? To start with, there is NO such thing as an "average American"; and yes, a very large % of Americans definitely ARE too stupid, ignorant, careless, and irresponsible to pump their own gas, and a great many of them are also too (all of the preceding), to drive their own vehicles safely, also. ( just a glance at national MV statistics will PROVE that once and for all.)

But back to Oregon for a minute; Have the liberal pin-heads in the Oregon State Legislature ever taken the trouble to give 17 different reasons why they think THEY are so much smarter than the pin-heads in the other 49 State Legislatures ?

I'm sure glad I found out about this ridiculous law when I did ! I was thinking about going through California, and up I-5 clear through Oregon; now I'll just avoid both of them ! ( I sure wouldn't want to take a chance on "running into" Nancy Pelosi or Diane Feinstein while I'm "passing through" the state !)

Charley
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):

I think what the state of Oregon is about to find out is.........there are a hell of a lot of places to live in the U.S., OTHER than Oregon; I'll even go a bit further; now that I'm "aware" of that idiotic law, I will no longer set foot in the state of Oregon; so when I go to Seattle the next time, I'll just travel I-90 across Idaho and into Washington State, and just "pretend" that Oregon doesn't exist !

And oral sex is illegal in Indiana. Do you think have the patent on 'freedom' or immunity from stupid or archaic laws? I'm sure Oregon will really miss you.
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hOMSaR
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 3:12 am

Don't forget that raising the minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately be spent, meaning it goes right back into the economy, quite possibly benefiting the same companies that currently pay their employees minimum wage.

That little detail gets overlooked quite often by folks who don't think it's worth it for poor folks to earn more money.

Now, all that said, one thing I'd definitely like to see is the elimination of the exception to the minimum wage for waiters/waitresses at restaurants. Their minimum wage is considerably lower because it's assumed they'll be earning tips (so, basically, not only are the customers paying the restaurant for food, we're paying their employees' salaries too).
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AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:03 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
Do you have ANY credible statistics showing that there are any fewer fires started while cars are being "gassed up" in Oregon, than in any OTHER state ?

Why should I care? Gas doesn't cost any more here than anywhere else.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
Also.......do you have any credible statistics showing that "Oregonions" have any better driving records than do drivers in any other state ?

What on earth could that possibly have to do with anything?

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
But back to Oregon for a minute; Have the liberal pin-heads in the Oregon State Legislature ever taken the trouble to give 17 different reasons why they think THEY are so much smarter than the pin-heads in the other 49 State Legislatures ?

Okay, now you've really lost the plot and totally blown your credibility. Outside of the metro areas of Portland/Salem/Eugene, Oregon is a HUGELY rural, red/conservative state. Banning self-serve gas has full bipartisan support. Even though the current legislature is held by a slight Democratic margin, that's not always been the case. Even our record of governors is split nearly down the middle half and half between parties, and our US senators have more often been Republican than Democrats.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:23 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):

In last nights speech, Obama stated he wanted to raise the minimum wage to $9.00 per hour. I for one think this is a huge mistake was a lot of small businesses could not afford to do this, and be forced to reduce headcount leading to more unemployment making matters worse.

The number 1 employer of minimum wage employees are fast food and big box stores. Most small business pay more than minimum wage for retention purposes. Also by raising the minimum wage you raise the disposable income of people which will in turn increase demand and help the economy.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:27 am

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
I'll even go a bit further; now that I'm "aware" of that idiotic law, I will no longer set foot in the state of Oregon

Hard to believe you've ever set foot in Oregon. You must not have been very observant. That's been the law for 60+years.

Quoting Geezer (Reply 35):
I think what the state of Oregon is about to find out is.........there are a hell of a lot of places to live in the U.S.

LOL. Just because you didn't know about something doesn't mean it didn't exist. Yes, imagine the massive bloodletting of population Oregon will suffer at the hands of the indignity of sitting in your car to get gas for the same price. The horror. Get over yourself..
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BN747
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:29 am

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 37):
Don't forget that raising the minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately be spent, meaning it goes right back into the economy, quite possibly benefiting the same companies that currently pay their employees minimum wage.

That very notion is SO lost on conservatives (even poor conservatives in the Red States who consistently vote against their own interest because they;d rather do that than vote for the black dude) talk about about ironic.

But exactly right, the poor or minimum wage people spend every cent they get in and wait to the same to the week around. It goes for food, utility bills, buses, gas (if they have a car), rent and yes,righties drugs - just like you guyswho smoke weed, do meth or 'legal drugs'. But they spend every single cent back into the economy - they DO NOT save. They can not afford it.

Do think it adds up?

Look at how Obama outspend McCain 5-1 in their race and it was done with nickel and dime low-dollar donations. But all their low wage and benfit money goes to one place - into the economy, not stocks, investments, 401s or any of that ...they collectively inject more cash back into the economy more so than those that sphincter out every penny after weeks of consideration. and the wealthy who sends out a servant to load up at Costco every other month.

More of them do the jobs many of you find beneath you and jobs you'd dare not be seen at. And no question (aside from the DMV ppl [but that's gov't employment not private]) fewer of them slack off at the water cooler than none mini-workers - of which more and more are morphing into WFHs - working from home.

BN747
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AR385
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 4:52 am

Obama should do well to learn from Latin America in the 70s.

Raising the minimum wage by decree is a wash. The employers just pass the cost on to the customers. Doing that once in a while, for election purposes for example, is harmless.

The dangerous part is to index it to inflation or the cost of living. That just creates an uncontainable, self-reinforcing monster that just generates more inflation, which generates increases in the minimum wage that generates more inflation etc. etc. etc and ad nauseaum.

It´s a big mistake.
 
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zkojq
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 37):

Don't forget that raising the minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately be spent, meaning it goes right back into the economy, quite possibly benefiting the same companies that currently pay their employees minimum wage.

DINGDINGDING We have a winner. Give an extra $20 to one of the working-poor and it will be spent (put back into the economy), give an extra $20 to someone higher up the wage scale and it is most likely going to be put into a savings account and not re-enter the economy for a good while. As it happens, The Economist agrees with me to some degree:
http://www.economist.com/news/financ...inimum-wages-can-do-more-good-harm

Obviously, the above theory has its limits as the effect a wage floor change has on an economy will depend on the margin by which the wage floor was changed.


Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Don't let that ruin your anti-socialist, Obama's a communist scare stories though. After all, it's wonderful entertainment.

   It certainly is. Kinda sad actually that some people here seem to be advocating some kind of serfdom.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
One well-paid and looked-after worker held to high productive standards is worth five workers who know their employer pays them dog turds and couldn't give a rat's arse about them.

   Another good point. When you pay the minimum wage you generally get the minimum wage attitude and skillset that comes with that, even if the employee has a higher skill-set than their wage would suggest.


Anyway, thats just my   
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BMI727
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Obama stated he wanted to raise the minimum wage to $9.00 per hour.

Some people get a raise. Others won't.

That extra money is going to have to come from somewhere.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 16):
When a CEO makes millions in salary, ask yourself: does a CEO really need all the bonuses?

Doesn't matter. They signed a deal that says he does.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 16):
If profits for companies are going up, then why aren't the profits among all the workforce?

For the same reason your salary doesn't get deposited into my checking account: it isn't their money.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 29):
Good idea, healthy amount of socialism will bring the United States to this century and make it a better place for a human to live in.

Socialism will only drag an economy, and the best and brightest people in it, downwards. Enforcing mediocrity leads nowhere. It is impossible to have an economic system where everyone is rich. It is, however, possible to have one where nobody is rich.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
Amazing to see the level of fear created by the prospect of not being able to just leech off the super-low-paid.

It's exceptionally scary to see how giddy many people are at the prospect of getting their hands on some of the money controlled by millionaires. Liberals love to spew crap about how "they didn't build it" and they owe us something for some reason, but the truth of it is that liberals want to tax the rich for the same reason that John Dillinger robbed banks: that's where the money is.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 30):
One well-paid and looked-after worker held to high productive standards is worth five workers who know their employer pays them dog turds and couldn't give a rat's arse about them.

Many workers are completely replaceable, commodity labor.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 39):
The number 1 employer of minimum wage employees are fast food and big box stores.

...which are patronized by lower and middle class people. There isn't going to be a net flow of money to the poor from increasing minimum wage. People working at Neiman Marcus aren't making minimum wage, it's the Walmart employees making minimum wage.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 42):
Obama should do well to learn from Latin America in the 70s.

I agree. Let's start exporting cocaine.
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Geezer
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
I am in the SF bay area and the "living wage" is nearly $11.00, which was forced many companies to lay off people to afford the higher wages.

Combining these higher wages with Obama care will spell economic disaster.

I agree with your viewpoint completely, Joe, but I would point out one additional thing; Obama's "un-affordable" Health Care law is doing that ALREADY ! And while we're at it, I'll point out something else it's doing, (or very SOON will be doing); it's going to put a VERY big SCREW into the very "individuals" who voted for him ! I have a very good friend; he's self employed, and does very well for himself; he's also a HUGE obama supporter; thanks to the un=affordable HC "act", his health insurance is very soon about to MORE than double ! Also.....he has a 40 year old son, who is "supposed" to be a "near genius" he's "so smart"; just after Christmas, I was talking with my friend, asking him "how everything is", now that the holidays are behind us; his answer was classic ! Quote: "Well, now that all of our out-of-town guests have gone home.........we're STILL "stuck" with one"; ME; "Let me guess.........your eldest, genius son, Christopher, ?"
Mike; "uh, well...yeah";

Hey....I'm no "psychic" .......I can't tell you what number will win next week's "Power Ball" drawing; but I CAN tell you how to "avoid" having 40 yr old "genius" offspring "lean on you for support" because it's soooooooo, much "trouble" working all the time ! You point to the front door......and say "don't let it hit you in the ass on the way out"!

Or......there's even a MUCH better way; starting when they are about 6 yrs old, you teach them a little "something" every day; by the time they start high school, if your "teaching" was on the money, they will already be headed in the "right direction". My oldest son told me one day when he was about 15 or 16 yrs old, "I'm going to be an electrical engineer"; ( I don't remember what I said, only what I was thinking); ( yeah, sure you are) When he graduated HS, he applied for and was accepted in University of Cincinnati's 5 yr co-op program; 6 months college, 6 months at a company; (he co-oped at Texas Instruments, in Houston) after 5 yrs of back and forth between Cincinnati and Texas, he graduated with a BS in EE; had offers from Kodak, IBM, and Motorola, in Chandler, AZ. He spent the next 4 years living in Chandler, AZ. While he was with Motortola, he spent much of his time working on a contract that Motorola had with the Navy in California; after a year or two, the Navy made him an offer, (which he didn't refuse); after about 10 yrs, (and quite a few nights), he got his PhD. (and he's still just "as smart" as he always was).

I think my friend Mike's son is possibly just as smart as my kid is; (but "smart" is almost impossible to accurately measure) I'm more inclined to be impressed by results; I haven't had to give my kid anything since he was running back and forth to Houston every six months; (I did give him a van to move his junk back and forth) ( he's in his early 50's now, so I think he'll probably "make it").

So...........what does all that have to do with "minimum wage" you ask ? Just this; some people go out and make it on their own; about 25 times as many sit around on their butts, crying about how "unfair" the cruel world IS; Where do you suppose they ever heard that ?

If you are really serious about wanting to really understand "minimum wage", just look up Dr. Milton Friedman's classic work on the subject; he says it better than any one else ever has, or ever will.

I'll make a prediction right now; NO ONE will read what Milton Friedman wrote; what many WILL do, is that will "show that old fool" how ignorant HE is, and how "smart" THEY are !

Quoting hOmsar (Reply 43):
But you forget that raising minimum wage increases the income of the people who have the greatest financial need. That money will almost immediately be spent, meaning it goes right back into the economy, quite possibly benefiting the same companies that currently pay their employees minimum wage.

See what I mean ? So the "Gubmint" should GUARANTEE all people who have the "greatest need" X amout of $$ per hour, based on their "need" ? Looking at it through YOUR rose colored glasses, why not just pass a law saying ALL young people, (who OBVIOUSLY have a LOT of NEED), should be paid $100,000 per year; (and maybe we should only require them to work about 24 hours a week ); that way, they can have more "fun", and maybe even have more "self esteem" ! I'm sure if we put it to a vote, they will DEFINITELY ALL voted for it ! There's only one problem; (and if you need me to point it out, you're dumber than I give you credit for, and I don't even want to waste any more time discussing it with you) !

The "Gubmint" has only TWO sources of money to "hand out" to all the people who always have their "hands out";
they have the ability to confiscate it from the people who WORK, and they can "turn on the printing presses at the Bureau Of Printing And Engraving, and ..........make"something" out of "nothing" ! (And the present "clown" (with the ridiculous whiskers) is about the best there is at that !)

"the people with the greatest need" ? I'm wondering.........so many here seem to favor RAISING the "mimium wage"; have ANY you folks ever studied science ? If you do, (or if you already have), you'll run into a lot of "laws" there as well; there's this one that states........."if you throw something UP, it will come back DOWN"; (regardless of what obama, Nancy Pelosi, or Harry Reid tell you), things that get thrown up, always come down; If you ever read any book about simple economics, you'll hear about another "law"; "The amount people receive for their labor is in direct proportion to the difficulty of replacing them".

If you're have any trouble comprehending that. it simply points out that brain surgeons and astro physicists are "more difficult to replace" than Big Mac flippers, and car washers, so they tend to be compensated somewhat better. ( Have you ever heard of a brain surgeon screaming to get "minimum wage" ?)


Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
Mir
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 34):
I will say this though, once you get used to having your gas pumped for you, it's a rather nice little luxury.

All it gets me (in New Jersey) is wasted time waiting for the attendant to finish with other cars and get to me. It sucks.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 43):
When you pay the minimum wage you generally get the minimum wage attitude and skillset that comes with that, even if the employee has a higher skill-set than their wage would suggest.

That's certainly true, but raising the minimum wage isn't going to make people more motivated. Rather, it'll just change the level of pay that companies have to give to people with minimum-wage attitudes.

-Mir
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AR385
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 44):
I agree. Let's start exporting cocaine.

Nah. You are not producers. You should try pot though, it´s your biggest cash crop, and meth.
 
Geezer
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 47):
Nah. You are not producers. You should try pot though, it´s your biggest cash crop, and meth.

it's funny that you should mention meth ! That's the No.1 cottage industry with all of the "no-goodniks" around here; the big problems are though, first, all their teeth fall out, and then they always get caught and end up in the slammer for the next 20 years or so; personally, (all you libs cover your eyes now, cause you'll think this is "harsh"), I think we should make dealing in meth a Capital crime; (You know, one strike and you're "outa here"!)

Charley
Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage

Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:44 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
All it gets me (in New Jersey) is wasted time waiting for the attendant to finish with other cars and get to me. It sucks.

I rarely wait a moment. It usually takes me longer to bend down and flip the filler cap button, than it takes for an attendant to come over to the car to find out how much gas I want.
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