User avatar
1337Delta764
Topic Author
Posts: 4900
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 4:02 am

Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:05 pm

Of the numerous ship fires through recorded history, it seems that the majority of cruise ship fires have occurred in Fincantieri-built ships. However, since the late 1990s, Carnival Corporation blindly buys almost all of its ships from Fincantieri without looking at other builders (the only major exception was the Spirit Class in the early 2000s).

Considering that the majority of ship fires have occurred on Fincantieri built ships, if I were the NTSB I would order an investigation on all Fincantieri-built ships and try to find out what is the cause of the fires.

Because of this, I think now is the time for Carnival Corp to reconsider its relationship with Fincantieri and consider other builders (STX Europe, Meyer Werft, etc.) with better safety records.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
Ken777
Posts: 9048
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:42 pm

First Carnival needs to look at the engineering plans they have used for their ships. Those plans are obviously lacking in appropriate use of filtered salt water for their toilet systems and, as we are seeing, that presents a major health problem for both passengers & crew.

Then they need to review the engineering work related to the fire itself. We need in investigation by the NTSB to determine the cause of the fire and actions that need to be taken.

At the same time there is a need to raise standards for any ship that docks in the US, or sells cruises in the US. Basics like an independent sewer service should not be that hard to engineer. May cost some money, but I'm not feeling sorry for companies without strong engineering. GIve them a few years to fix all ships - as long s they are working on at least one ship at a time on a continual basis. If they don't do it then ban the ships from US ports and ban sales of cruises in the US.

The industry, IMO, has moved to a cattle car mentality (and engineering) with safety taking a back seat to profits.
 
User avatar
DocLightning
Posts: 19769
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 8:51 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:48 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 1):
At the same time there is a need to raise standards for any ship that docks in the US, or sells cruises in the US.

And that is something enforceable. If you want to sell cruises through your U.S. subsidiary, then your cruise ships need to be able to handle an engine room fire without complete loss of power.
-Doc Lightning-

"The sky calls to us. If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars."
-Carl Sagan
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:28 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 1):
First Carnival needs to look at the engineering plans they have used for their ships. Those plans are obviously lacking in appropriate use of filtered salt water for their toilet systems and, as we are seeing, that presents a major health problem for both passengers & crew.

The emergency generator should also provide enough power to more than essential ship systems. Things like the coolers, and perhaps a small section of the galley would be good customer service. Especially the coolers, since having all of that food spoil within hours, despite having emergency power, is poor form.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Thread starter):
Because of this, I think now is the time for Carnival Corp to reconsider its relationship with Fincantieri and consider other builders (STX Europe, Meyer Werft, etc.) with better safety records.



Taken into account the sheer number of sailings they have each day and every year I think this is blown out of proportion. The ship yard builds to Carnival Corp specs so it would most likely be a design flaw over a building flaw.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Ken777
Posts: 9048
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:54 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 4):
Taken into account the sheer number of sailings they have each day and every year I think this is blown out of proportion.

Same with commercial flights in the US. A lot of flights with a continual reduction in accidents because we attack accidents & other problems. The government agencies as well as the builders and operators.

What we need is the cause of the fire. If it is because of carelessness or human error then the incident needs to be addressed in a different manner than if bad wiring was the cause.

Regardless of the cause we need to put as much effort into the investigation and corrective actions that we have with commercial airlines.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9965
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:59 pm

Interesting why is it mostly Carnival branded vessels that have had problems but not those of their subsidiaries using essentially the same vessels built by the same yard, for instance I can't remember ever hearing about a Holland America problem. Could it be a maintenance issue with Carnival?
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:05 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 1):
Those plans are obviously lacking in appropriate use of filtered salt water for their toilet systems and, as we are seeing, that presents a major health problem for both passengers & crew.

I think that there are laws now that prevent the discharge of sewage into the sea. If that is true, then, they have to use fresh/grey water, store the waste into tanks, and then offload inport because most sewage treatment plants can not handle salt water. When I was in the US Navy, we used the firemain to supply the toilets and that ran into the CHT(collection, holding and transfer---someone had a good sense of humor to name it that) system which we discharged to the sea. If they use fresh water, then I can see why the toilets were down, as evaporators use a lot of power.

Quoting Goldenshield (Reply 3):
The emergency generator should also provide enough power to more than essential ship systems.

Isn't that an oxymoron? The EMERGENCY power is designed to power the essential systems, thats all. We had what's called vital and non-vital 60 cycle, I.E. If it was needed to keep the ship afloat and fighting, it was vital, if it was for creature comforts(I.E. air conditioning, freezers and fridges, all galley related stuff--stoves and ovens, Admin spaces and so forth) it was non-vital and was shedded as needed. Yes i was on a warship, but you get the point. So people were hot, had to eat cold meals, maybe piss into a bucket, but did the ship sink?
You have to remember that this is a cruise ship, no damage control, no way to by-pass switchboards and so forth. They kept it afloat and tried to keep everybody safe. So they did their jobs.

People keep forgetting that a ship is a very complex machine, operated on the sea( a very harsh environment that will kill you the second you turn your back), with no help close.

Dan in Jupiter
 
jetfuel
Posts: 1027
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2005 10:27 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:06 am

http://economics-files.pomona.edu/jl...rs/Likens2012/reports/Carnival.pdf


I know not everybody has by travel or business interest but for those into cruising might love this inside report i to Carnival Corporation. This report highlighting safety issues and bad PR was written before the Carnival Triumph Fire. IMO cruise lines are cutting back in many areas

Carnival has a notably worse safety record than other cruise companies. While there is no public database of major cruise accidents such as the Costa Concordia disaster.........carnival-owned companies accounted for 56% of all viral outbreaks,
compared to a 48% average market share............ Additionally, Princess Cruises had 10 outbreaks, or 20% of total outbreaks, despite only having a 6% market share .

The company is also thought to have a worse safety record for persons lost at sea, especially in the Carnival brand: of the 179 disappearances since 2000, Carnival Cruise Line alone accounts for nearly 30% of them
Where's the passion gone out of the airline industry? The smell of jetfuel and the romance of taking a flight....
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5005
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting sprout5199 (Reply 7):
Isn't that an oxymoron? The EMERGENCY power is designed to power the essential systems, thats all. We had what's called vital and non-vital 60 cycle, I.E. If it was needed to keep the ship afloat and fighting,

Whoa there, trigger. I was fully aware of what emergency power is BEFORE you said it, BUT this IS a cruise ship here, not a WARship. They don't carry MRE's. They don't carry many canned goods---if any at all. A large portion of their supplies are FRESH. Don't compare the two.
Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
Okie
Posts: 3553
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 11:30 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:53 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
If you want to sell cruises through your U.S. subsidiary, then your cruise ships need to be able to handle an engine room fire without complete loss of power

That requirement is has been met from day one. albeit an outhouse mess so to speak.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 1):
We need in investigation by the NTSB

International Maritime Law (UN)
Bahamian Law
US Coast Guard
would be the order of authority.
The NTSB may be requested by the Coast Guard but they would have to get approval from above, they may be welcomed maybe not.

The Triumph passed a Coast Guard inspection in May 2012. I would assume to Bahamian standards.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Same with commercial flights in the US

Not quite correct. The US honors foreign countries standards for flights to and from the US through agreements.

Okie
 
ltbewr
Posts: 12395
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:06 am

I think there seems to be a seroius problem with the electrical system on these ship as they have them designed and maintained. Perhaps cheaper and lighter components are being used to help hold down weight, so can add more fancy stuff and more pax, but may have gone too far with real long time demand and reliable service. That may be Carnival specs or Fincantieri going to cheap electrical and other sub-contracors to push up their profits or hold down contracted delivery prices.
Maintenance may be mininal, not well done, to hold down costs and downtime in port for repairs - although now this ship may be out of commission for months costing Carnival maybe $100 Million and some not covered by insurance. Consider too the workers on these ships, including engineering crews, are paid below American minimum or pervailing wages, with long unregulated hours, from 3rd world countries and no worker protections so you may not get the best people you may need to do the mx right.
 
baguy
Posts: 474
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:04 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:19 pm

We should however also remember, that Carnival Corp. is the biggest cruise company in the world - I think they carry the majority of cruise passengers worldwide.

The point was made that no one seems to be able to remember a Holland America problem. Exactly. Where are Holland America ships registered? The Netherlands.. Where are Carnival ships registered? Panama and Liberia to name but two...

BAguy
 
windy95
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:11 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:32 pm

Do not forget that Costa is a subsidiary of CCL and they also had a fire on a ship last year along with their other big disaster.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...ta-liner-leaves-cruise-ship-adrift
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting baguy (Reply 12):
Where are Carnival ships registered? Panama and Liberia to name but two...

Actually not. The only Liberian flagged ship Carnival ever had were Tropicale and Jubilee which left their fleet in 2001 and 2004, respectively. Tropicale is now the Ocean Dream, chartered to Peace Boat and Jubilee and now sails for Star Cruises as the Henna. All of the active ships in Carnival's fleet are registered in Panama (Fantasy, Ecstasy, Elation, Paradise, Victory, Pride, Legend, Miracle, Conquest, Glory, Valor, Liberty, Freedom, Splendor, Dream, Magic, Breeze), the Bahamas (Sensation, Fascination, Imagination, Inspiration, Destiny, Triumph), and Malta (Spirit).

As for your point about Holland America not having any problems...try again.

Ryndam had a fire in 1994 while docking in Alaska and a norovirus outbreak in 2007, Rotterdam lost power on a Trans-Atlantic crossing in 2004, and Westerdam struck ice in Alaska in 2011

[Edited 2013-02-15 06:52:16]
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 14):
As for your point about Holland America not having any problems...try again.

Ryndam had a fire in 1994 while docking in Alaska and a norovirus outbreak in 2007, Rotterdam lost power on a Trans-Atlantic crossing in 2004, and Westerdam struck ice in Alaska in 2011



Also the Oosterdam's Alaska sailings all of last year have been plagued with an engine problem that makes the arrival into Victoria late each sailing It is supposed to be fixed this year, though they kept sailing the ship with a known problem.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9965
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:03 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 14):
Ryndam had a fire in 1994 while docking in Alaska and a norovirus outbreak in 2007, Rotterdam lost power on a Trans-Atlantic crossing in 2004, and Westerdam struck ice in Alaska in 2011

None of those issues are related to the construction or maintenance of the vessel.
 
garnetpalmetto
Posts: 5351
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 1:38 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):


None of those issues are related to the construction or maintenance of the vessel.

Which did not appear to be baguy's point he said "nobody seems to remember" a problem on HAL. I'd identify those as "problems," but if you don't see hitting ice as a problem, I've got a rather nice barely used White Star Lines Olympic class ship to sell you. And unless you know for sure, the fire and the loss of power could both be tied into construction and/or maintenance practices.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9965
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 6:43 pm

They are not problems caused by the builder which is the OP's assertion, my thoughts are that Carnival may well be lax in it's maintenance procedures, HAL doesn't appear to suffer from the same issues as Carnival, yet they predominantly use vessels of similar or the same class built by the same yard.
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 4121
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:27 pm

Royal Caribbean Cruise LIne is the second largest cruisecompany in the world. They have had issues too, but not in the same numbers as Carnival I think ...
 
luv2fly
Posts: 11056
Joined: Tue May 13, 2003 2:57 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:37 pm

I am always surprised that people start these threads and never participate
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
baguy
Posts: 474
Joined: Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:04 pm

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting garnetpalmetto (Reply 14):
Actually not. The only Liberian flagged ship Carnival ever had were Tropicale and Jubilee which left their fleet in 2001 and 2004, respectively. Tropicale is now the Ocean Dream, chartered to Peace Boat and Jubilee and now sails for Star Cruises as the Henna. All of the active ships in Carnival's fleet are registered in Panama (Fantasy, Ecstasy, Elation, Paradise, Victory, Pride, Legend, Miracle, Conquest, Glory, Valor, Liberty, Freedom, Splendor, Dream, Magic, Breeze), the Bahamas (Sensation, Fascination, Imagination, Inspiration, Destiny, Triumph), and Malta (Spirit).

As for your point about Holland America not having any problems...try again.

Ryndam had a fire in 1994 while docking in Alaska and a norovirus outbreak in 2007, Rotterdam lost power on a Trans-Atlantic crossing in 2004, and Westerdam struck ice in Alaska in 2011

So my mistake there, but the majority of their vessels are still registered in Panama. Which still proves the point: these are flags of convenience, used to get around the more stringent rules of more developed countries. That is an obvious difference between HAL and Carnival - the point i am trying to illustrate is that Fincantieri is not to blame here.

And as for norovirus, thats hardly in the same league - that can occur on even the most well maintained and cleaned vessels.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3072
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Should Carnival Corp Drop Fincantieri As Builder?

Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:51 pm

Fincantieri should be building to Carnivals spec, if they don't meet the spec I can't see that Carnival would take delivery. On that basis Carnival need to change what they ask for.

The fundamental problem seems to be that these vessels are more akin to Las Vegas themed hotels than ships. The difference is that the Vegas hotel takes its power from the local electricity company and has a back up system for when that fails, the floating Carnival hotel just has no back up for when its own genrators fail.

To my mind there's a lot of issues with crusie ships including:
Insufficient back up power
Crews recruited from many nationalities, often with no common language, last weeks lifeboat fatalities on a Thomson ship resulted in the deaths of one Philipino 3 Indonesians and a Ghanian. One of the injured was a Greek. Thats at least four nationalities in a group of eight.
Automation has reduced the numbers of sailors on the sea side of things, whilst the increase in passenger numbers has vastly increased the catering and housekeeping staff. This results in the ratio of professional seafarers to passengers being very low which is unhelpful in an emergency.
Ships are so large that they are restricted on available ports, once again unhelpful in an emergency.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerlingus747, drew777, Mani87 and 7 guests