jetblueguy22
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Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:15 am

The previous thread was getting quite long so a second thread is being started to continue the discussion. The previous thread can be found here Obama Wants To Raise Min Wage (by JoePatroni707 Feb 13 2013 in Non Aviation) .
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PlanesNTrains
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:10 am

DarkSnowyNight: "The thinking that business will close up and die off, or lay people off, or cut hours, etc, is far more based in panic, or worse, deliberately misleading greed, than actual fact. There's no doubt that increasing payroll on that scale will force changes, but that's what profit margins are for. If they can't handle this, they were likely poorly managed in the first place."

Hmmm....Well, all I can tell you is what I've seen dealing with a high increase in the minimum wage in Washington State, currently $9.19/hour. Businesses will absolutely look to raising prices in order to mitigate the cost increase. They will look to reduce other costs as well, such as managing utilties better, shortening hours open, using cheaper products or ingredients, etc. And, yes, they will also cut employee hours by increasing productivity and changing how they do things. And yes, they will offer raises that are fewer and farther between, saving them for the most valuable employees.

How any of that equates "greed" is beyond me. I know that many of these small/mid size business owners are doing pretty well financially, but even the ones doing really well are still not living some sort of lavish lifestyle. In fact, they work their butts off, are extremely intelligent, tenacious, talented people. They provide jobs, take their businesses seriously, and strive to reward their deserving employees in a variety of ways, financially and otherwise. But, by the very nature of their businesses, they are tapping unskilled, untrained, often uneducated people who would otherwise likely not have a job because they lack the skills necessary.

Calling someone like that "greedy" or suggesting that their businesses are "poorly managed" because the government says they should arbitrarily be paying their employees more seems really unfair. In fact, these businesses are often providing a lower cost product that people who don't have a lot of many can actually afford. Is it their fault that oil has skyrocketed, that the economy hit the skids, that THEIR suppliers have jacked up their prices, that the utility companies just keep increasing their rates, etc?

No, it's the greedy bastard of a small businessman that is leading to the destruction of our otherwise great nation. Right.

DSN: "A lot of the same objections were lofted to the creation of OSHA, the 40 work week, and just about every safety standard ever passed. And yes, financial changes and adaptations had to commence. But that's just the way things are, to put it simply."

I agree. As a conservative, I'm embarrassed that our representatives (conservative) are not leading the charge in more of these areas. In the end, though, it's the push and pull of the political system that creates checks and balances.

DSN: "Less so, I think 25% unemployment (be it from this or anything else) is a long-term unsustainable proposition. As one company collapses or cuts staff to the bone, another will invariably move in to take its place, for the simple reason that there was a reason the dying company existed in the first place. Markets change periodically anyway, and most companies adapt to this. There weren't massive scale unemployment as a result of fuel price increases, but there was some shifting involved. People still need and want things, and as long as this never changes, unemployment on that scale will not increase as a result of wage increases. Places that have unemployment at that level do so for a host of other reasons."

I don't think it's a zero sum game, so if someone thinks that it will balance itself out, I think they are sadly mistaken. Not just because of a big increase in the minimum wage, but because it's just one part of a big, growing increase that is hitting the bottom line of many small and mid sized businesses.

WestJet747: "I have no expectation of you or others to separate your faith from your daily life, but how does it in any way impact your economy-based political preferences?"

It's usually a package deal. Economic policies are shaped by politicians. Electing a politician is about more than just economics. There are a host of issues, including those that impact my personal and religious beliefs, that will guide my decision. It doesn't mean that I always vote for the best person. Anymore, I feel like I'm voting for the "least bad" person. But, yes, I think that it affects economic policy because it's all a package deal when electing politicians.

Ken777: "If tips don't take them past the minimum wage then they are making starvation wages. They get stiffed on some of their tables and it's a slow night and you've hit the starvation level without a problem."

Yes, and that's no different than anyone else. Some days are bad. You get sent home early. It's raining so the roofing company can't work that day. Etc. By and large, I'm doubting that most servers end the day making below minimum, but if you have a link stating the contrary I'm happy with that.

Ken777: "In a lot of companies (especially in the food business) the "entry level" tag is held onto like it's some religion. Actually it's simply greed."

I just have no respect for this out-of-hand label of greed being put on these businesses. It is "entry level" work. They don't need schooling. They don't need previous experience. They don't need a special skillset. Often they don't need to speak English. What ISN'T entry level about that?

If you think these businesses are earning some exhorbitant profit, then I'd like to know where it is, because by and large most of these restaurants are feeling the squeeze from all directions. And remember, many, many, many of these locations are privately owned. Many are single or small group locations, such as local chains or multi-unit owners. And if you check Craigslist, you'll see that numerous locations are failing all the time.

CMF: "If the only way for a company to survive is by exploiting employees then they are on life support anyway. Better let them go under. If the need is there people will pay the higher price needed to support the operation of the remaining company(s). That is capitalism."

Yes, because paying them the federally mandated minimum wage TO START is exploiting them.  

CMF: "I think your numbers are wrong but let's pretend they are right. I suggest if a company can't handle this very low minimum wage then the company will go under soon anyway and thus the real difference is that the problems are dealt with faster."

Well, my numbers are likely wrong because I was making them up for example.

I'm not trying to suggest that the businesses will go under right away. I'm suggesting, though, that the workers are going to carry the brunt of the financial impact through reduced hours (which ObamaCare is going to lead to anyways) and fewer and small raises. For some businesses, though, the impact of EVERYTHING being thrown at them is indeed going to cause them to fail, flounder, or stagnate. How that helps all of these people that want to work and are thrilled to have a job is beyond me, but oh well.

-Dave
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romeobravo
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:20 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply LastThread):
I can give you a link covering this I am sure. To make it simple, a parent needs money, so they send their 10 year old son or daughter to work in a sweatshop or whatever term you want to use. The child is being exploited, by his parents and the workplace. The parent wants or needs money, the shop owner knows this, he uses this desperation to offer less money for the labor of a child. Both parties are guilty of exploitation. The child does not want to work in a shop, the child want to be a child, be with their family, play. The child is being exploited. The same if a child was sent to a house of Prostitution. The history of exploited children is as old as the history of labor. We now have laws that prevent that in the US, not perfect, but better than it was here and elsewhere

Aha, I notice that we have moved the goalposts and have started talking about children being forced to work by the parents. Well i would agree that is exploitation, it is exploitation by the parents as they are forcing the child to do something they don't want to do.

However, it is being assumed that the kid doesn't want to work, i think in a lot of situations he would, because, again, it's better than the alternative. Sweatshops might not look good to our decadent western tastes but the alternative is normally a lot worse.

Quoting cmf (Reply LastThread):
Your description is wrong. It is a ban on exploitation.

It isn't. It's a ban on negotiating a rate which pleases both parties. As i have stated you can't force employers to hire someone for more than they're worth. They just won't hire them because they're not stupid. Will you buy $5 off of me for $10?

Quoting cmf (Reply LastThread):
If a company has someone employed and can't get enough value out of them to pay minimum wage they have bigger problems than someone trying to slack.

They often can for the first 3, it's the 4th or 5th that can't. Why is that, because there's often diminishing marginal utility for each additional employee. By increasing the price of an employee, the optimal number of staff at a company might go from 4/5 to 3, so people are going to lose their jobs. Some, might get a payrise, but at the expense of others who lose their job completely.

Quoting cmf (Reply LastThread):
I absolutely think it would have been a lot worse without government intervention.

But the government caused this crisis by centrally planning the price of money in order to inflate an artificial boom. It wouldn't have been a lot worse because it wouldn't have existed.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:31 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
It isn't. It's a ban on negotiating a rate which pleases both parties. As i have stated you can't force employers to hire someone for more than they're worth. They just won't hire them because they're not stupid. Will you buy $5 off of me for $10?

Ah, but paying people far less than they're worth is ok is it? Because in this wonderful free-market economy there are just hundreds of other jobs lying there in wait for people? Not always true, and it comes down to situations where people have no option but to accept near-criminally low wages or starve. There is a balance to be struck, and there are plenty of people out there willing to allow terrible working conditions and menial pay in the cause of their own personal enrichment. Some degree of regulation is totally necessary.
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romeobravo
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:37 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Ah, but paying people far less than they're worth is ok is it?

Paying people the market rate is what is fair. If someone's paying you far less than you're worth, all you need to do is throw in the towel and go and work for someone else.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Because in this wonderful free-market economy there are just hundreds of other jobs lying there in wait for people?

We do not have a wonderful free market economy. I certainly don't condone much of the current regime, however, i'm very keen to see movement in the right direct.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Not always true, and it comes down to situations where people have no option but to accept near-criminally low wages or starve. There is a balance to be struck, and there are plenty of people out there willing to allow terrible working conditions and menial pay in the cause of their own personal enrichment. Some degree of regulation is totally necessary.

You are basically speaking of this mythical race to the bottom, which in short doesn't exist. The only way companies could continually force progressively worse working conditions and pay on their staff is if that company had the monopoly on employing people.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:49 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
Aha, I notice that we have moved the goalposts and have started talking about children being forced to work by the parents ... Sweatshops might not look good to our decadent western tastes but the alternative is normally a lot worse.

LOL! Go back to my Reply #131 and the argument you made to it in Reply #148 in the original thread. Changing the goalposts? Really. It was very clear what we were talking about, the foundation for the minimum wage law in the U.S., and the usual victims of sweatshop owners at the time.

Regardless, sweatshops have been considered an indignation by most of the respondents to the thread, no matter where sweatshops may be found, nor whom they may exploit, judging by the other replies in subsequent posts.
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romeobravo
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:03 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
LOL! Go back to my Reply #131 and the argument you made to it in Reply #148 in the original thread. Changing the goalposts? Really. It was very clear what we were talking about, the foundation for the minimum wage law in the U.S., and the usual victims of sweatshop owners at the time.

I'm a little confused at what you're getting at here? But i will try and cover the potential bases.

I have always maintained that the use of force is immoral. But up until we started talking about parents forcing their children to work, force never came into it.

And yes we might have been talking about the US then, but are you really suggesting that depression-era US was a time of prosperity compared to today?
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:04 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):

Regardless, sweatshops have been considered an indignation by most of the respondents to the thread, no matter where sweatshops may be found, nor whom they may exploit, judging by the other replies in subsequent posts.

No, it's ok - they don't exist apparently:

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 4):

You are basically speaking of this mythical race to the bottom, which in short doesn't exist. The only way companies could continually force progressively worse working conditions and pay on their staff is if that company had the monopoly on employing people.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:07 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
No, it's ok - they don't exist apparently:

I must say, the tone of this post is very disrespectful. And it's not really clear what your point is.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:18 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):

I must say, the tone of this post is very disrespectful. And it's not really clear what your point is.

The point is that I find it pretty ridiculous to suggest that the circumstances in which people get exploited are 'mythical'. The fact is that in some places companies virtually do have a monopoly, in practical terms. Sorry if you think it came across as disrespectful, but for clarity - it is your arguments here that I am taking against, not you personally.
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cmf
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:37 am

BMI727 in previous thread:
"So does the economy, since that's one more person unemployed. It's like saying that unless you can buy a Mercedes, you shouldn't buy a car."

No, minimum wage isn't like giving everyone a Mercedes. It is like requiring every car to have steering wheel, indicators, and brakes.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
Yes, because paying them the federally mandated minimum wage TO START is exploiting them.

Never suggested that. However others did. I stated minimum wages are there to avoid exploitation.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
I'm not trying to suggest that the businesses will go under right away. I'm suggesting, though, that the workers are going to carry the brunt of the financial impact through reduced hours (which ObamaCare is going to lead to anyways) and fewer and small raises. For some businesses, though, the impact of EVERYTHING being thrown at them is indeed going to cause them to fail, flounder, or stagnate. How that helps all of these people that want to work and are thrilled to have a job is beyond me, but oh well.

US companies are very good at making employees taking the brunt while managers and owners carry on like normal. One reason why income disparity is growing.

I'm not a fan of Obama care. I don't think healthcare should be connected to companies. This country has chosen an extremely costly way to handle health and Obama care doesn't make any real changes.

You are right in that the combination of higher salaries and health costs combined with everything else going up will cause some companies to go under. Most of them would even without minimum wage and Obama care. This just brings in the cleaning crew faster.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
It isn't. It's a ban on negotiating a rate which pleases both parties.

No it isn't. As I mentioned above, it is the equivalent of requiring cars to have critical equipment.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
They often can for the first 3, it's the 4th or 5th that can't. Why is that, because there's often diminishing marginal utility for each additional employee. By increasing the price of an employee, the optimal number of staff at a company might go from 4/5 to 3, so people are going to lose their jobs. Some, might get a payrise, but at the expense of others who lose their job completely.

If the job can be done with three employees then they should not employee the fourth and fifth person. Let the last two get jobs that are productive.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
But the government caused this crisis by centrally planning the price of money in order to inflate an artificial boom. It wouldn't have been a lot worse because it wouldn't have existed.

???
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:38 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 9):
The point is that I find it pretty ridiculous to suggest that the circumstances in which people get exploited are 'mythical'. The fact is that in some places companies virtually do have a monopoly, in practical terms. Sorry if you think it came across as disrespectful, but for clarity - it is your arguments here that I am taking against, not you personally.

First of all no company has a monopoly on work. And secondly even in places which currently have one provider of sweatshops (which is not the same thing as a monopoly) the standards aren't continually going down because at some point people would just quit and take local jobs or go back to farming.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
If the job can be done with three employees then they should not employee the fourth and fifth person. Let the last two get jobs that are productive.

But these jobs don't exist. Otherwise they'd already be in them.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
???

What's not to understand, the government distorted the most crucial price in the economy, the price of money, we all thought we were richer than we were, channelled our money into housing and stop being productive, and now we have gone bust.

[Edited 2013-02-18 03:42:08]
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:43 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
(which is not the same thing as a monopoly)

For practical purposes it can be. There is this lovely idea that everyone is completely mobile and free to drift wherever they want to find work, but for the most disadvantaged in the world this is often not the case.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
the standards aren't continually going down because at some point people would just quit and take local jobs or go back to farming.

I haven't actually said that there is a constant lowering of standards. But, if your definition of acceptable wages is one step above subsistence farming then it explains your opinions well.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 11:55 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 12):
I haven't actually said that there is a constant lowering of standards. But, if your definition of acceptable wages is one step above subsistence farming then it explains your opinions well.

Acceptable is subjective. It is better than the alternatives, and therefore, it can not be seen as a bad thing. Over time of course there will be more and more alternatives. Unless, opinions such as the ones viewed in this thread result in the banning of outsourcing things to 3rd worlds countries.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:41 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
But these jobs don't exist. Otherwise they'd already be in them.

If they don't exists there can't be a loss...

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
What's not to understand, the government distorted the most crucial price in the economy, the price of money, we all thought we were richer than we were, channelled our money into housing and stop being productive, and now we have gone bust.

You simplify too much. But even so you clearly state we can't count on companies to be responsible.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 2:45 pm

It's interesting that this wage raise always brings about such a debate .
This is not as if we are setting the average work rate for workers. We are setting the base working wage that a worker should earn. Most workers can and will earn more based on skills and experience. Those that make minimum are either entry workers (teenagers) , or extremely low skilled. Either way, there is a point where the minimum does not keep pace with inflation, and it becomes exploitive on the part of emloyers that can raise prices and reduce costs due to inflation and delationary pressures to force thos entry level and low skilled workers to accept a below value pay scale.


if you go by a goalpost analogy. the 2013 Mnimum wage worker is behind all of those that worked at minimum wage in the 1960's and 70's. I pay more in taxes than a current minimum wage employee can make in a year.



Yes there are costs to it, and I even think some companies , especially fast food, that depend on low labor rates will pass those costs onword. However that is the nature of inflation, and you need to raise the bar for the minimum as the maximum keeps going up. To not even want to vote on it , shows the current ignorance of certain members of Congress. They didn't hold up the minimum wage increases when I was getting furloughs and pay cuts in 2009 during the recession. So why not have a good healthy debate about raising the minimum wage and what rate seems fare?
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BMI727
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Ah, but paying people far less than they're worth is ok is it?

But "how much they're worth" in this case is just an arbitrary government decision, rather than anything based on the market.

Quoting cmf (Reply 10):
No, minimum wage isn't like giving everyone a Mercedes. It is like requiring every car to have steering wheel, indicators, and brakes.

And as a result, you'll sell fewer cars since some people can't afford all that while not allowing motorcycles or mopeds.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
But "how much they're worth" in this case is just an arbitrary government decision, rather than anything based on the market.

But that is the point of the minimum wage. It is all about arbitrary. Either the worker is an unknown quantity in terms of skill set, or the job requires the bare minimum treatment. Either way, a floor has to be set to make sure the worker is not being underpaid or exploited. Those that have skills will find advancement, and those without will continue to muddle.

The very real minimum wage is always zero, people can choose not to work. Those that do work should be afforded a bit of protection from employers predatory habits.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
Aha, I notice that we have moved the goalposts and have started talking about children being forced to work by the parents. Well i would agree that is exploitation, it is exploitation by the parents as they are forcing the child to do something they don't want to do.

However, it is being assumed that the kid doesn't want to work, i think in a lot of situations he would, because, again, it's better than the alternative. Sweatshops might not look good to our decadent western tastes but the alternative is normally a lot worse.




I am guilty of using my country as a barometer for all things good and evil. This is where I live after all. I know that we are very guilty of exploitation past and present. I feel for exploited from everywhere. It is no different even though local conditions may vary. A hungry stomach changes everything, In an impoverished country, even a child will do things out of desperation. In this country things have changed radically over the years, Thank the good Lord for that.

I am a fan of historical photographs. I suggest you may check some of them from the days of child labor here and elsewhere, poverty and exploitation has a face, none of them smiling, young or old. A hungry stomach make one forget that they are being exploited for awhile. I cite the French and American Revolutions as an example. I cite the coal miner. In England and the US and elsewhere. The diamond miner in Africa. They are not called blood diamonds for nothing. It does no good to use semantics, exploitation is exploitation
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:42 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
The very real minimum wage is always zero, people can choose not to work. Those that do work should be afforded a bit of protection from employers predatory habits.

Amen brother. People need protection from predators of any kind. All are not equal for sure, some need more protection, that is why we have laws and rules because of predators, criminal and economic who take advantage of the weak and needy, or just down on their luck for any reason, such as an economic collapse as occurred here. I will not get into that.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
*emotional rhetoric*

Their lives may have been bad by today's standards, but think about how much worse they'd been if they didn't have jobs at all. That is what you are arguing for, more starvation, more misery. It's an odd position to hold tbh. Strange that you can have such contempt for your fellow man.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:54 pm

RomeoBravo : I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve on a thread about raising the minimum wage, if you don't recognize the need for a minimum wage to begin with.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):

RomeoBravo : I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve on a thread about raising the minimum wage, if you don't recognize the need for a minimum wage to begin with.

If i can get 5 people to realise that the minimum wage is completely counter productive and will only hurt the poor, then those 5 people might tell 5 more people, and those 5 people might tell 5 more people etc. You never know, i might save somebody their job.

I think a lot of people are just refusing to hear it because Obama said it so it must be true. I know politics is extremely partisan over there, like it is here. But i don't really have a dog in that fight.

[Edited 2013-02-18 09:05:34]
 
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casinterest
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 25):
If i can get 5 people to realise that the minimum wage is completely counter productive and will only hurt the poor, then those 5 people might tell 5 more people, and those 5 people might tell 5 more people etc. You never know, i might save somebody their job.

So here is the problem with your argument .

In the USA, it is called the Earned Income Tax Credit, and it is indexed for Inflation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit


It would actually behoove the Government to drastically increase minumum wage in order to reduce the EITC.

As you can see based on the phaseouts, those in the 10% and 15% brackets loose 21% of their tax credit for every dollar over the maximum threshold .......which is currently above minimum wage. And this is a tax credit, which means that if the person has less taxes than the value, they get a refund and can actually pay negative taxes.
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romeobravo
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 26):
So here is the problem with your argument .

In the USA, it is called the Earned Income Tax Credit, and it is indexed for Inflation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit


It would actually behoove the Government to drastically increase minumum wage in order to reduce the EITC.

As you can see based on the phaseouts, those in the 10% and 15% brackets loose 21% of their tax credit for every dollar over the maximum threshold .......which is currently above minimum wage. And this is a tax credit, which means that if the person has less taxes than the value, they get a refund and can actually pay negative taxes.

You might have noticed that i have been suggesting the Negative income tax in this very thread, multiple times, which sounds like a very similar thing to the EITC.

The NIT does not kill jobs, nor the incentives to earn more. It is still slightly distortionary, but is vastly superior to the minimum wage, which economically speaking is a car crash policy.

Again the flaw in your logic is you think that people will earn more due to the minimum wage. They won't, they'll just get sacked (or more realistically, not hired) and then you'll be spending even more in benefits, and the country will be even less productive and worse off.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
But, by the very nature of their businesses, they are tapping unskilled, untrained, often uneducated people who would otherwise likely not have a job because they lack the skills necessary.

Just because a job position doesn't need a higher education or years of training there is no reason why we need to push wages well below the poverty line. Employers in other countries, like Australia, seem to manage pretty well and I find it hard to believe that US business owners are incompetent in comparison.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
Yes, and that's no different than anyone else.

During my time in retailing at a wage position I was never sent home because of a slow day. There was always work that could be done. When I went to salary positions I was never sent home early because it was a slow day.

To be blunt, sending home a worker making $2.75 an hour early because things are slow simply cuts that workers income, which few can afford. Maybe taking it to half that $2.75. Pretty easy to see why we need to spend so much on federal benefits.

It is also pretty difficult to say that the employer is not a total bum. Greed is pretty apparent at $2.75 an hour.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
It is "entry level" work. They don't need schooling. They don't need previous experience. They don't need a special skillset. Often they don't need to speak English.

But they need to eat.
They need to pay rent.
They need to pay utilities
They need to pay for transportation
They need to pay a lot of other basics of living in the US
And at times they need to pay for health care.

Look at the range of your spending - and how it would be if you were at a minimum wage level.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
What ISN'T entry level about that?

The cost of living that the poor have to endure.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
If you think these businesses are earning some exhorbitant profit, then I'd like to know where it is, because by and large most of these restaurants are feeling the squeeze from all directions.

The failures I have seen were places that didn't deliver a good product. Bad food for the buck. A few places we didn't go back to because of bad service - which isn't a surprise at starvation wages.

I have been friends with the owners of a moderately priced cafe in Sydney. They pay good wages and a pretty stiff rent and they still manage to do well. Long hours, hard work and sufficient financial growth that they were able to open two other places.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 27):
Again the flaw in your logic is you think that people will earn more due to the minimum wage. They won't, they'll just get sacked (or more realistically, not hired) and then you'll be spending even more in benefits, and the country will be even less productive and worse off.

The flaw in your thinking is that you overthink what I think. My point about minimum wage revolves around keeping pace with the state of the economy.

The argument about who gets hired and fired is a decsion based on a micro level. However what good is the economy doing by hiring folks that due to regulations and tax code cost more than just letting them live on welfare?

The minimum wage should be raised as long as evidentiary inflation is present.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:05 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 16):
There is a loss because you have outlawed jobs that don't pay at a certain rate. Simple as that, the idea that higher paid jobs will appear elsewhere is false.

The loss of tying up people in low paying jobs that require supplement income from government or charities is much higher.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
And as a result, you'll sell fewer cars since some people can't afford all that while not allowing motorcycles or mopeds.

I'm very happy brakes are required. I certainly do not want people without brakes to be out driving. They would too often use my car to stop them.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 25):
If i can get 5 people to realise that the minimum wage is completely counter productive and will only hurt the poor, then those 5 people might tell 5 more people, and those 5 people might tell 5 more people etc. You never know, i might save somebody their job.

I think this is backfiring for you.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 28):
Just because a job position doesn't need a higher education or years of training there is no reason why we need to push wages well below the poverty line.

But it does. If I have a job that can be done by literally any adult with a pulse and a job that requires specific skills and education, guess which I'm going to have to pay more for. Being a buyer in a seller's market is rough, but that happens and it doesn't mean that it's a good idea to distort the market. It's like if in 2008 the government had mandated a minimum price per square foot for home sales.

Quoting cmf (Reply 30):
I'm very happy brakes are required. I certainly do not want people without brakes to be out driving. They would too often use my car to stop them

You're about to get rear ended by some illegal immigrants though.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 29):
The flaw in your thinking is that you overthink what I think. My point about minimum wage revolves around keeping pace with the state of the economy.

You should be putting it down then    . The US economy is in dire straits and is going further and further down the toilet. Of course, you shouldn't need to do anything at all, the market does it all automatically for you.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 29):
The argument about who gets hired and fired is a decsion based on a micro level. However what good is the economy doing by hiring folks that due to regulations and tax code cost more than just letting them live on welfare?

Well that is the result of another flawed policy. With the negative income tax, you could have a level where you think benefits should kick in. And for every 2 cent you earn below that limit, the gov will give you 1 cent up to what you would get from benefits if you had no job (the exact maths will probably be different, just highlighting the theory).

Such a system is far better than the minimum wage.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 29):
The minimum wage should be raised as long as evidentiary inflation is present.

Well no, it shouldn't exist at all, because it kills jobs. Do you really think in a time of great unemployment in the US, the solution is to increase the price of Labour. If you were trying to sell your car and it wouldn't sell, is the solution to raise the price? If you ran a pub and you wanted to sell more beer, would you increase the cost of beers? If nobody is buying your plane tickets, do you charge more?
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 25):
If i can get 5 people to realise that the minimum wage is completely counter productive and will only hurt the poor, then those 5 people might tell 5 more people, and those 5 people might tell 5 more people etc. You never know, i might save somebody their job.

The minimum wage is simply one cost factor for a business owner. To give it more weight than changing rates for, say, electricity, demonstrates a lack of understanding of business.

The other issue is the ability of companies to be successful when paying out a living wage. I used Australia as an example because I lived there long enough to see that business, large and small, are able to operate profitably. This "the sky is falling" mentality in the US when a small increase in poverty wages does nothing to improve either the functioning of business, or the living standards of people on welfare.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
If I have a job that can be done by literally any adult with a pulse and a job that requires specific skills and education, guess which I'm going to have to pay more for.

That's not the issue. The issue is where the starting wages are set. The further down they are from the poverty level the more your taxes are going to pay in benefits - corporate welfare that you seem to love so much. Look around the world where living wages are set for the a minimum wage, where businesses are not burdened by giving out nanny care (a far greater burden than a living wage) and where living standards are equal to ours.

Reality is that we fail in comparison in many areas.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 25):
I think a lot of people are just refusing to hear it because Obama said it so it must be true.

That's all we needed to know, really. Someone who used to post here signs on again to show us the light, because he feels we are all mindless lapdogs. And he wonders why I won't engage his arguments. I smelled an agenda miles away!
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:36 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 32):
Well no, it shouldn't exist at all, because it kills jobs.

It should exist to provide a floor for predatory employers. The natural market economy takes care of most workers as their value increases. The minimum wage is there to truly protect those that need protecting from those that could care less.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 32):
Do you really think in a time of great unemployment in the US,

Yet the economy is improving . Should we wait for the Apex of that trajectory? Especially in light of the Earned Income Tax Credit, and the impending budget cuts effect on Government jobs?

The time for the argument is ripe. Whether 9 dollars is trully what should be set is debatable. However it is time to have the debate.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 32):
you were trying to sell your car and it wouldn't sell, is the solution to raise the price?

A car is a depreciating asset. Not a good comparison.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 32):
If you ran a pub and you wanted to sell more beer, would you increase the cost of beers?

Is the beer in demand or cheap swill. And would the price you lowered it to wind up costing you money?

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 32):
If nobody is buying your plane tickets, do you charge more?

If the cost of Gas and labor goes up you do. And your reduce employment until demand ticks up.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:48 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
And your reduce employment until demand ticks up.

Business cut employee counts for a lot of reasons, sometimes they cut too deep.

Delta was the classic example of cutting too deep - their customer service took a nose dive, their premium flyers raised hell and Delta made a fast turn around, rehiring as fast as possible and apologizing to their customers.

Other companies have cut staff and have tried to figure out why sales have gone down. They can't seem to connect the dots.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:53 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
Yet the economy is improving

Err, no, it isn't. How's the deficit? How's the dollar? How's the trade balance?

The US (and my country just in case you think i'm picking) are in the terminal stages of a very noticeable decline in the standard of living. At the moment they are trying every last trick in the book to kick the can down the road, but we are running out of road.

We are repeating so many of the mistakes made during the Great Depression it's actually funny.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
It should exist to provide a floor for predatory employers.

There's no such thing as predatory employers, there's the market rate, and the market rate is the market rate. You can't force people to pay above it through legislation. If working for someone is so predatory and so bad, you're free to quit.

As for the rest of your post. If you're so stubborn that you won't even admit that increasing the price of something reduces the demand, then i don't know why i even bother.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:55 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Business cut employee counts for a lot of reasons, sometimes they cut too deep.

Delta was the classic example of cutting too deep - their customer service took a nose dive, their premium flyers raised hell and Delta made a fast turn around, rehiring as fast as possible and apologizing to their customers.

Other companies have cut staff and have tried to figure out why sales have gone down. They can't seem to connect the dots.

No doubt about it. Competition can make decisions very difficult. My own industry saw the effects of it in 2000. Big companies like Lucent and Nortel layed off thousands of engineers. They helped create some of the companies that are now canibalizing their markets.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:06 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
The further down they are from the poverty level the more your taxes are going to pay in benefits - corporate welfare that you seem to love so much.

We don't have to pay welfare, minimum wage or not. Pull out the net, it's too expensive.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
The minimum wage is there to truly protect those that need protecting from those that could care less.

They need protecting for a reason. Why ensure that people are overpaid if they offer nothing more than a warm body?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 36):
Other companies have cut staff and have tried to figure out why sales have gone down. They can't seem to connect the dots.

Other companies can cut staff and genuinely become more efficient and not see a hit at all.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 37):
Err, no, it isn't. How's the deficit? How's the dollar? How's the trade balance?

Those items are what they are. But the economy is improving. You are posting items that are results of policy, not the economy.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 37):
noticeable decline in the standard of living. At the moment they are trying every last trick in the book to kick the can down the road, but we are running out of road.

Yeah, I don't quite believe the decline in the standard of living. But go ahead with your belief in that.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 37):
There's no such thing as predatory employers,

Yes there are. Just as there are predatory employees. A small percentage, but still a percentage.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 37):
If you're so stubborn that you won't even admit that increasing the price of something reduces the demand, then i don't know why i even bother.

I am not stubborn. Some things are Price Inelastic. A price increase may not have a linear or even noticable effect on demand to a certain point.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
They need protecting for a reason. Why ensure that people are overpaid if they offer nothing more than a warm body?

people that are a warm body are not working, earning zero dollars. Folks that due the bare minimum to stay employed should earn a minimum wage. Those that don't perfom at all should be shown the door.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:35 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 37):
Those items are what they are. But the economy is improving. You are posting items that are results of policy, not the economy.

No, they are crucial indicators of a healthy economy. Though it does make me wonder what measure you're using that makes you think it's recovering. Nominal GDP no doubt.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:47 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
We don't have to pay welfare, minimum wage or not. Pull out the net, it's too expensive.

That is going to have a huge, positive impact on both the economy and the crime rate. With 300 million guns in this country you really want to push poor people to the wall?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 37):
Some things are Price Inelastic. A price increase may not have a linear or even noticable effect on demand to a certain point.

I think a lot of people also don't understand that even products that re semi price sensitive would take a pretty small price hit with such a small dollar increase in the minimum wage. That's the 5¢ increase of a Happy Meal - and even that increase could increase the owners profit margins.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:52 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 39):
Though it does make me wonder what measure you're using that makes you think it's recovering. Nominal GDP no doubt.
http://www.bls.gov/eag/eag.us.htm

http://www.businessinsider.com/where...-us-economy-is-at-right-now-2013-2



Fair use excerpt

"What this means is that the U.S. is currently in slow expansion mode.

But impending partisan fiscal debates could cause short term volatility write Hofschire and Emsbo-Mattingly. From the report:

"While policy risks continue to populate the headlines, the overall trend during the past 18 months has been the gradual receding of systemic risk. In the U.S., the ongoing fiscal debate is still creating uncertainty—a headwind for business investment—and the potential for rancorous discussions may trigger headline and market volatility over the next three months."


Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/where...t-right-now-2013-2#ixzz2LHYOuzud"
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 39):
No, they are crucial indicators of a healthy economy.

To use one item on your list, the dollar itself is a horrible example of an indicator of a healthy U.S. economy as a standalone item, as it is a global currency with a demand for use as a currency reserve, for use in foreign local economies, and for use in setting the price of commodities, such as oil.

For example, in 1985, the dollar began a shocking dive in value, somewhere around 15% or so in a short period of time, simply due to monetary policies set at the G7 that year, even while the U.S. economy was recovering well from the recession of the early Reagan years. The dollar had been on an upward trajectory in the years before, even in light of the bad economy in the early 80s, plus the country being in the grips of the S&L crisis.

Rather than calling other posters 'stubborn' for not buying your ideology, it would do you well to educate yourself on some of the topics you're attempting to coerce others into accepting your line of thinking about.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 22):
I think a lot of people are just refusing to hear it because Obama said it so it must be true.

Have you ever considered the tiny, remote possibility that they just *might* disagree with you and think that the principle of a minimum wage is actually a good thing? Unfortunately, by reducing the debate to the base level of assuming that anyone who disagrees with your stance is somehow doing so only because they are blinded by Obama's charisma, you show your real lack of understanding for the opinions of others. It is patronising in the extreme, and frankly just SO typical of any debate which has any remote connection to US politics. It's always just 'them and us' isn't it.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 43):
It is patronising in the extreme, and frankly just SO typical of any debate which has any remote connection to US politics. It's always just 'them and us' isn't it.

It does sniff of 'having lost the argument, lashing out in frustration,' doesn't it? 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:02 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):

But "how much they're worth" in this case is just an arbitrary government decision, rather than anything based on the market.

So are the percentages the feds use to calculate your income tax. Point?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 28):

But it does. If I have a job that can be done by literally any adult with a pulse and a job that requires specific skills and education, guess which I'm going to have to pay more for.

In your case, likely neither. The problem is that most companies would pay far below min wage if they could. And of course the effects across the economy would be devastating. Part of the problem with unregulated free-market is that like a machine running with oil or a speed governor, it will destroy itself along with everything else around it. Safeguards like min wages function to help business as much as anything else. People capable of seeing things only in the very shortest terms don't recognize this, of course, but that's their problem.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 29):
Of course, you shouldn't need to do anything at all, the market does it all automatically for you.

Yeah, that's been working great so far.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 29):
Well no, it shouldn't exist at all, because it kills jobs.

No, what kills jobs is having no customers. Which is what happens when folks aren't paid enough to do the jobs you're unwilling to do.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
How's the deficit? How's the dollar? How's the trade balance?

How's your mother? You don't have to answer, I just thought I'd ask you something as related to this discussion as your questions above  
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):

The US (and my country just in case you think i'm picking) are in the terminal stages of a very noticeable decline in the standard of living.

Don't bet on it. Nothing you're pointing to actually has anything to with people's living standards. In my case, income and standard of living have increased dramatically and reliably every year for the past five. Right when we were supposedly having the worst recession since the early 1970's. As you can see, there are a lot of reasons why I do not buy into cheap hype, but the fact remains that I do not wish to see a backslide here. And that is much more tied to having a strong customer base for my own customers than some etherial and debatable bunk about economic indicators.

And if raising the minimum wage supports that stability (and it obviously is), then that's what we need to do. I realize that some profit margins will be effected fractionally by this, but it won't be enough to hurt my own investments in long run. Again, it's only shortest term thinking that opposes lifting the minimum wage.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
At the moment they are trying every last trick in the book to kick the can down the road, but we are running out of road.

Yes they are, aren't they? But in spite of what they want, the minimum wage will be raised (again) sooner or later. And as I said before, this has been done many times before, and the sky didn't come crashing down as a result.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
There's no such thing as predatory employers,

Bullshit. Next.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
there's the market rate, and the market rate is the market rate.

Sure. And as long as that's above a gov't enforced minimum, we're fine with that.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
You can't force people to pay above it through legislation.

Lol, we can force anything we want that way. That's kind of how laws work.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
If you're so stubborn that you won't even admit that increasing the price of something reduces the demand,

I think it's funny you call other people stubborn... Nevertheless, no, this is not true all the time. Or even a lot of it. I suggest you read up on a concept called "inelastic demand."

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
We don't have to pay welfare, minimum wage or not. Pull out the net, it's too expensive.

And yet you still live in the united states instead somewhere you'd obviously prefer, like Somalia... What's holding you up? They don't do welfare there...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
Why ensure that people are overpaid if they offer nothing more than a warm body?

Why ensure companies make a minimum profit margin when the increase costs across their host societies by virtue of their existence?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 37):

Yeah, I don't quite believe the decline in the standard of living. But go ahead with your belief in that.

Same here. It's hard to find a time in my life when I've done better...

I think people look at debt and economic growth for this. They see those numbers and think something along the lines of "well, if the television and the internet say the economy's in trouble, we must all be going to hell"

There's obviously a lot more to it than that, but for some of us, I guess it's just hard to see the big picture. I don't know...

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):

How any of that equates "greed" is beyond me. I know that many of these small/mid size business owners are doing pretty well financially, but even the ones doing really well are still not living some sort of lavish lifestyle.

Because they are almost always maintaining their profit margins while making these cuts. If that's how they want to do it, that's their business, but if part of this comes from utilizing underpriced labor, that's a cheat that ultimately hurts the entire economy, and it needs to have a stop put to it.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
In fact, they work their butts off, are extremely intelligent, tenacious, talented people.

That can also be said for a good deal of minimum wagers who are where they are because of circumstance. Which would be the same reason many successful people are where they are.

Hard work and talent, and all that crap is great and all, but much of life's success comes from placement and timing. While there's nothing wrong with that, there are dues to be paid. Part of this means paying your workers in accordance with the local economy, not the least you feel like.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
But, by the very nature of their businesses, they are tapping unskilled, untrained, often uneducated people who would otherwise likely not have a job because they lack the skills necessary.

I know as well as anyone that that happens. But at that level, you would need to look at them as a commodity. Sometimes the cost of that goes up. Did you just stop driving anywhere at all when gas hit $4.15/gal?

Much ado is being made about nothing. This increase will go into effect sooner or later and when it does, you'll be fine.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
I agree. As a conservative, I'm embarrassed that our representatives (conservative) are not leading the charge in more of these areas. In the end, though, it's the push and pull of the political system that creates checks and balances.

This is why I do not vote exclusively along party lines. Sometimes important things get left out.

Quoting PlanesNTrains (Reply 1):
Yes, because paying them the federally mandated minimum wage TO START is exploiting them.  

When it's not enough to get by on, yes, it is certainly exploitation. This is part of why a lot of people want to see this fixed.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 58):
How's your mother? You don't have to answer, I just thought I'd ask you something as related to this discussion as your questions above

The US economy is consuming far more than it is producing and is living off of the last dregs of debt and inflation it can get away with, which is going to come back and bite it sternly in the arse. That is what these indicators say and that is not the sign of a healthy economy.
 
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:45 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 62):
The US economy is consuming far more than it is producing and is living off of the last dregs of debt and inflation it can get away with, which is going to come back and bite it sternly in the arse.

What that opinion has to do with the minimum wage—the topic of this thread, and which has been with us through every boom and bust cycle since the 1930s—is anyone's guess.
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RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:49 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 40):
With 300 million guns in this country you really want to push poor people to the wall?

I think more of the lower classes than you do. They aren't savages.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 50):
Whenever I bring that topic up, I'm always taken to task by the right wingers for spending money on 'useless' projects,

Because they either have to be unnecessary or things that should have happened before.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 51):
Yes we should enact the very policies that caused the great depression. Great idea

They didn't cause the Depression, they just didn't end it. Some of Roosevelt's policies probably even extended it.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 58):
So are the percentages the feds use to calculate your income tax. Point?

This is probably the first time I've seen anyone hold up American tax policy as an example of governmental wisdom.

That said, it's a distortion in the market and therefore an inefficiency.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 58):
The problem is that most companies would pay far below min wage if they could.

Only if the market will bear it.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 58):
Why ensure companies make a minimum profit margin when the increase costs across their host societies by virtue of their existence?

Nobody ensures a minimum profit for companies, for the most part. Why do the same for people?
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romeobravo
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: Obama Wants To Raise Minimum Wage Part 2

Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:53 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 61):
Precisely! You're catching on. ::whew:: A vibrant economy, where workers are treated fairly and remunerated in an equitable way is part and parcel of having such means. If you want a rice and beans economy, by all means pay your workers a rice and beans wage. If you want a caviar and champagne economy, you help put money into circulation so that you have a market to sell your goods into, which helps opens up the coffers of market liquidity via the confidence a robust economy gives business.

The most prosperous economy is that where the people are paid the market rate for their Labour, this means that people and resources are organised in the most productive way possible.

Productivity grows an economy, not spending. Giving people loads of money for no increase in productivity will just cause inflation.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 61):
You keep conflating price fixing into the argument instead of focussing on the issue at hand.

Well this IS a thread about price fixing.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 60):
I'm not talking about everyone having 'a lot' of purchasing power. I'm talking about them having 'enough' to basically live reasonably. I specified the kinds of criteria I have in mind for that, and things like adequate shelter, healthcare and decent food do not mean 'a lot' of purchasing power.

A lot, a little, a reasonable amount, all if it. The same thing applies, if you can't produce that level of productivity, nobody's going to pay you that much salary. Regardless of whether there's a minimum wage or not.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 60):
As for the nature of the programs you refer to, I am unsighted on the detail of what you have in the US.

I don't live in the US, i live in London thanks, hence the Union flag up there.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 60):
I can't seriously consider it sensible to have no organised help available to reduce unemployment and get people in to work if they struggle to do so themselves. There are people out there who, for whatever reason, are short on skills, experience, simply don't know so well how to go about getting employed. It is ridiculous to ignore that and just 'let the market sort it out'. The market won't sort out those issues, which are essentially socio-societal ones, and intervention and help are highly beneficial if done right.

Yes it will, the market will take a chance on them because it can pay them low wages and hope to build up their skills and gain experience. After a while this experience will result in higher wages and perks. This is the process that is curerntly being blocked by the minimum wage.

Anyway, i'm slightly tired of dispelling just about every economic fallacy in history now, so i'm going to retire for the night.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 64):
They didn't cause the Depression, they just didn't end it. Some of Roosevelt's policies probably even extended it.

I would argue that they caused it. Obviously they didn't cause the initial bust, but they put off the readjustment that needed to happen in order for the economy grow again. Whilst at the same time, they added to a deficit that would later have to be paid off anyway.

Edit again: When i say economy grow again, i am using my own/Austrian definition which is an increase in productivity and not an increase in gov spending.

[Edited 2013-02-18 15:08:00]

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