G500
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30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:09 pm

"The private jet industry employs 1.2 million people and creates biliions in tax revenue"..

I wonder if Mr. Obama knows that? he likes bashing the private jet indutry

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewa...-amazing-facts-about-private-jets/
 
BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
I wonder if Mr. Obama knows that? he likes bashing the private jet indutry

It's better to take potshots at the 1% apparently.

People don't understand that corporate jets are not toys. These are real business tools just as much as a laptop or a conference room.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:56 pm

Fact 31.
I can not afford one.      

On a serious note my neighbour is a Stew for a private jet company and there is no downturn in her work load last year or this, she is very busy.
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
desertjets
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:10 pm

Really what an awful fluff piece -- doesn't really do anything to argue that the current tax incentives/break for private jets are valuable or not.


For one I don't know what type of tax breaks private jet owners/companies get. But if they are such an invaluable business tool why would they need to be subsidized like that? Now I don't doubt the value of general aviation and its economic impact either. Nor do I like how private jets get used in political theater (remember all the hoopla the CEO's of the Big 3 got for flying in their corporate aircraft to testify before Congress before the auto industry bailout a few years ago).
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dfambro
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:14 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
People don't understand that corporate jets are not toys. These are real business tools just as much as a laptop or a conference room.

Sure, but it's very easy to overstate that. Reading the Buffet and Winfrey bits shows that what we all know - that having a jet at your beck and call is really cool - is a significant part of the equation. I love how Buffet named a jet "The Indefensible".

One of the business functions of the jet that's seldom mentioned? Executive retention. Once you've got access to it (and at-cost usage hours for personal use as part of your compensation) it's hard to give it up.
 
Mir
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 3):
For one I don't know what type of tax breaks private jet owners/companies get.

I'm not up on the specifics, but they do get some breaks on depreciation at least.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:30 pm

Quoting dfambro (Reply 4):
Sure, but it's very easy to overstate that. Reading the Buffet and Winfrey bits shows that what we all know - that having a jet at your beck and call is really cool - is a significant part of the equation. I love how Buffet named a jet "The Indefensible".

It really isn't though. Calling it a "business jet" is not a euphemism. I read the story of one guy who was a successful general contractor who did a lot of work for the government. He bought himself a Citation that he used to fly to job sites. Another guy owns a Caterpillar dealership with his family and commonly uses his plane to take customers to the factory.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 4):
One of the business functions of the jet that's seldom mentioned? Executive retention.

Well, yeah. I still curious as to why spending money to try and retain employees is somehow taboo or viewed as an illegitimate use of resources. Apparently offering incentives to people below the executive level is good, but doing the same for top executives is bad?

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I'm not up on the specifics, but they do get some breaks on depreciation at least.

Probably not any more than on any other asset.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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readytotaxi
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:40 pm

Hey DesertJets, Happy A.Net Birthday. 13years old today.  
you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
 
dfambro
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:42 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Calling it a "business jet" is not a euphemism. I read the story of one guy who was a successful general contractor who did a lot of work for the government. He bought himself a Citation that he used to fly to job sites.

For some businesses I'm sure the cost-benefit equation works out nicely. For others, well...

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
I still curious as to why spending money to try and retain employees is somehow taboo or viewed as an illegitimate use of resources. Apparently offering incentives to people below the executive level is good, but doing the same for top executives is bad?

I'm with you on this one and had no intention of implying otherwise.
 
cmf
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 5:47 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
People don't understand that corporate jets are not toys. These are real business tools just as much as a laptop or a conference room.

They are great business tools when used properly. More often they are toys justified by poor planning, at high cost to owners.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 9):
More often they are toys justified by poor planning, at high cost to owners.

Any data to back that up, or just political rhetoric?

Even the assumption that using a private jet equals owning a private jet is flawed in practice.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
G500
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:34 pm

Every now and then a CEO uses the company's jet for personal reasons and the whole "private jets are personal toys" argument flares up again... A fortune 100 corporation's CEO used his company's G-V for a family vacation to New Zealand, and a local newspaper found out about it, they put it on the front page of the newspaper.

But most of the time, private jets are used for company's business and they are a great tool. A corporate jet enables a company to do a lot more in less time. Efficiency greatly increases

Private jets also enable a company's CEO to show the world his company is financially healthy
 
dfambro
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Every now and then a CEO uses the company's jet for personal reasons

As I mentioned above, personal use of the corporate jets can and is used as a perk, and is included as part of executive compensation. I am very familiar with one specific case - a private REIT that for top execs had personal time in the contract, and for other employees they bonused out jet time for top performance. At-cost usage was reported to the IRS as part of compensation, so the REIT also gave a tax gross-up payment to make the jet use "free". Granted, I don't know how widespread that is, but within that REIT it was viewed as a huge incentive.
 
BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:51 pm

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Every now and then a CEO uses the company's jet for personal reasons and the whole "private jets are personal toys" argument flares up again...

Except that the sort of thing you are talking about is either provided as part of the contract the executive has with the company and/or he pays for it in some way.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
canyonblue17
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Private jets also enable a company's CEO to show the world his company is financially healthy

Isn't that what profits are for?
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macpat
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:30 am

The ongoing discussion about "Corporate Jets" borders on the silly. As best I can tell the cliche' about corporate jets began, or at least accelerated, in 2008 when the financial crisis was cratering everything and the auto execs flew to DC on their jets to testify in front of Congress regarding their bailouts or whatever. Of course, Barack Obama picked up that sledge hammer during the campaign and after. I don't need to reprise all that.

Here is the thing that I have never seen mentioned. From my background which I will not detail here but it has almost nothing to do with aviation, and nothing to do with being a top executive, I can tell you this. Companies don't fly their executives around just to waste money. Sure, it's a bit of a perk, in some ways. But consider this: A company has only one Chief Executive, and only one of several other executives be they Chief Operating Officer, Treasurer, whatever. Companies pay these people lots of money, as well they should.

So, do you want your one and only CEO fooling around with scheduled airlines to go here or there that his job entails? In some cases no scheduled airline service? Of course not. Same thing for other core executives. You want to leverage their time. I know this to be true.

That, and only that is the fundamental reason for corporate aviation and it's good enough for me.

Is it a perk to be an executive and fly on those planes? Of course it is. But the company gets back the use of their one and only CEO or other executive's time. That's all it is for the most part.

Yakking about corporate aircraft is just populist envy mongering as far as I'm concerned.
 
Mir
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:43 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Apparently offering incentives to people below the executive level is good, but doing the same for top executives is bad?

It has to do with the proportionality of the incentives. A discussion of whether that's right or not belongs in Non-Av, but that's what it is.

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Private jets also enable a company's CEO to show the world his company is financially healthy

I'm not sure about that. I know of plenty of companies that are in some troubled financial straits, and the fact that they have a jet or two doesn't change that.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
macsog6
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:05 am

Quoting macpat (Reply 15):
Yakking about corporate aircraft is just populist envy mongering as far as I'm concerned.

macpat, I concur with you completely. Also seldom mentioned is that other people than the CEO often use corporate aircraft - and yes, not all of them are jets. I suspect the KIng Air is probably the most common but I've not looked it up.

At most of the companies I worked for, when the plane was going from, say, Dallas to New York, the corporate travel department ensured the aircraft was full of people who needed to go to New York, thus avoiding having to buy a ticket for them out of the company's profits.

Yes, I am certain that there are CEO's who have to have the plane totally to themselves, but there are many who want to ensure the plane is full with legit business travelers when they take off.
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BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:28 am

Quoting macsog6 (Reply 17):
Also seldom mentioned is that other people than the CEO often use corporate aircraft - and yes, not all of them are jets. I suspect the KIng Air is probably the most common but I've not looked it up.

You have hit on two misconceptions about corporate aircraft. First, it is more than just the CEO. Other managers, sales reps, etc. also sometimes fly privately. And then there are the various energy companies and others that shuttle many employees around on private aircraft, sometimes essentially operating an in house airline.

The second is that there are small and midsize businessmen who will fly their Cirrus or Piper for business trips. Still better than driving and on short trips there's less advantage to using a jet instead.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Pyrex
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:43 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I'm not up on the specifics, but they do get some breaks on depreciation at least.

For the umpteenth time, depreciation is not a tax break. The fact is that a buyer of an asset should be allowed to expense it immediately, since the seller of the asset is taxed immediately, but it is not. If IBM buys a new G650, Gulfstream gets taxed immediately on the profit, for the full amount, while IBM can only expense it over 10 years (or whatever the depreciation schedule of a business jet is), so IBM is in essence lending the government money for free for 10 years. The same can be said of any depreciable asset.
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Rara
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 1:54 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
People don't understand that corporate jets are not toys. These are real business tools just as much as a laptop or a conference room.

They really are both. Yes, they may make economic sense, but they're also an integral part of corporate impression management.

Unless you consider impression management a necessary part of conducting a business, in which case I will consider taxation a necessary part of regulating impression management.  
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jbcarioca
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:10 pm

As a former owner and operator of a number of corporate aircraft I am often torn in my views. While operating a charter service in the Los Angeles area the majority of business was to places like Las Vegas, Salt Lake City (winter only), Vail etc. There was business charter too but most ostensible business was conveniently co-located with the clients personal interests. My own use was not materially different, but I did make all my business trips with these aircraft.

As for MACRS the depreciation benefit is front-ended enough that first year cost is usually negative, but one needs income to shelter. I know enough accounting to debate the merits of expensing all capital goods vs depreciating over the expected life of the asset, but taht seems a discussion out of place for this forum.

I though Warren Buffet was right when he called it The Indefensible, less so when he changed it to The Indispensable.

Frankly we all know toys are big business. From yachts to aircraft to super cars toys sell, just as jewelry and trophy houses. That is the way the world works. IMHO, giving fewer subsidies to such toys are unlikely to damage sales too much, but will severely change timing of sales.

Personally I see no reason whatsoever to provide tax advantages for such sales. Allowing accelerated depreciation is itself pretty silly for equipment taht does not rapidly depreciate, unless there is a clear benefit. Of course there is; the donations and perks granted by the owners of such equipment.
 
rampart
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting g500 (Thread starter):

"The private jet industry employs 1.2 million people and creates biliions in tax revenue"..

I wonder if Mr. Obama knows that? he likes bashing the private jet indutry

This is an interesting discussion, yet the OP immediately goes into a political opinion, which taints it from the onset. How does one suggest deletion of an thread-starting original post -- directing to Non-Av -- while keeping the thread open?

Like most (all?) of you, I'm not a corporate finance attorney. I certainly support the need for general aviation, at all levels. I do wonder what tax loopholes exist associated with the purchase and operation of business jets, loopholes I wouldn't have owning, say, a car for my business? Or are they the same, just a different order of magnitude? Or is it that I won't be able to finance it with a Cayman Islands bank account?

-Rampart
 
DashTrash
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:23 pm

Quoting readytotaxi (Reply 2):

On a serious note my neighbour is a Stew for a private jet company and there is no downturn in her work load last year or this, she is very busy.

I apparently absorbed that downturn for her, along with a few hundred other pilots. NJA still has 495 on the street. Flex was offering voluntary separations recently, FLOPS still has guys furloughed, CS is pretty much shutting down and Avantair is barely hobbling along.

Quoting jbcarioca (Reply 21):
Personally I see no reason whatsoever to provide tax advantages for such sales.

I do. There are thousands of us that depend on these damn things for our livelihood. We usually make good money doing so and although I can't back this statement up, I bet we pay more in taxes than any advantages the buyers have.

Also, accelerated depreciation is not a tax break, as has been stated before.
 
mastermis
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:41 pm

Business tool huh?

"The biggest event for private jet travel is the Super Bowl; this year, over six hundred private aircraft flew into New Orleans Lakefront Airport for Super Bowl XLVII (typical weekend traffic at the airport is just 125 landings). Other top events include the Masters Golf Tournament and Art Basel Miami Beach."

  
 
Dufo
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:54 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Another guy owns a Caterpillar dealership with his family and commonly uses his plane to take customers to the factory.

This one?
It's registered as a Caterpillar jet..

I seriously think I just creamed my pants without any influence from any outside variables.
 
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STT757
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 2:59 pm

Quoting DesertJets (Reply 3):
But if they are such an invaluable business tool why would they need to be subsidized like that?



I agree totally, when an industry starts feeding at the trough of public assistance it opens itself up to criticism. Don't like it, stop asking for it. Republicans do it to people on public assistance, why can't the President do it to corporations? Aren't they people too?

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Every now and then a CEO uses the company's jet for personal reasons and the whole "private jets are personal toys" argument flares up again...



I'm looking at Flightaware right now for Teterboro, just this Morning alone I see:

two separate flights to Turks and Caicos
two separate flights to Bermuda
one to Punta Cana
Five to South Florida, I guess those could be business trips. Or not.
one to Santa Fe
One to Las Vegas
One to the Bahamas

Thats just a snapshot of activity at TEB this Morning. It's seems the flights to leisure destinations outnumber the flights to more business oriented markets.
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26point2
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:33 pm

I have worked in biz av my entire career...25+ years. Whenever one of these stories appears it's always the usual misinformed fluff piece dolled up to look legit. Some of the points are close or on target but I raised an eyebrow at:

"...There were 1,466 private jet crashes in 2011, resulting in 263 fatalities."

Now, statistics can mislead but this is horrendously off the mark. There was ONE fatal biz jet crash in the US in 2011 and that was a test flight crash that killed four from Gulfstream. I'm not sure where this stat came from but a little research would have been prudent.

Another was the reference to Global 8000. This plane hasn't even been flown yet and is years away from a delivery.

Anytime celebrity connections are included in a story it "dumbs" down the piece.

Despite what many on this forum believe biz jets are a critical tool in the corporate world and with the state of the airlines the biz jet is becoming a more viable option to many who could not quite justify it in the past.

The fractional ownership industry has taken a hit but this is a whole different type of biz av...one who is trying to make a profit. A true corporate jet/private jet is an invaluable tool.
 
cmf
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:59 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Any data to back that up, or just political rhetoric?

Political rhetoric, it may be your motivation. It certainly isn't mine. I want efficiency.

As to data to back it up, experience. When you work we large companies you get to see a lot. I was part of the M&A team of a fortune 500 company several years and there were scary examples, great examples too.

I have signed off using private jets for technicians and spare parts. I have signed off renting an 737 to send everyone from one office to a Christmas party. I have several times signed off on using a private plane to visit a location in Alabama, because it would take the better part of three days otherwise. I have declined every request for flying private between south Florida and New York.

But let's take the question back to you. What is your source questioning that they are used as toys?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Even the assumption that using a private jet equals owning a private jet is flawed in practice.

Only you made that assumption. Most business flights are made by employees of companies. It is the owners of the company footing the bill.

Quoting g500 (Reply 11):
Private jets also enable a company's CEO to show the world his company is financially healthy

As often the message is that here is a person who will salt our bill to cover his high expenses.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
G500
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:11 pm

Business trips, pleasure trips, company's business tool, etc etc etc. everybody is got an opinion and everybody is an expert on private aviation

The fact of the matter is that this industry employs 1.2 million people and creates billions in tax revenue for the governmnet, at the end of the day that is what counts.

Let's leave it at that
 
njxc500
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:08 pm

Quoting mastermis (Reply 25):
The biggest event for private jet travel is the Super Bowl

Do you think there were a few contracts signed at that event? I bet many of those aircraft had potential clients aboard.

Do you know what the government spends for private travel in a year, excluding the President? I'd be much more interested in that information than what's being discussed here.



At the beginning of 2008, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (D., Md.) led a group of 13 lawmakers on a trip to Vietnam, Australia and New Zealand. The lawmakers flew on the military's version of a Boeing 757, the same plane that is typically used as Air Force Two when the vice president is aboard.

The lawmakers reported that the cost of the 12-day trip was $68,623, according to a travel report filed by the lawmakers for the trip. The cost of flying for 57.8 hours was another $1.1 million, according to the Journal calculation based on the information from the Air Force.

Top
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:43 pm

Quoting STT757 (Reply 27):
Thats just a snapshot of activity at TEB this Morning. It's seems the flights to leisure destinations outnumber the flights to more business oriented markets.

I'm not doubting what you are saying, but you also didn't list who owns those jets. I don't doubt some executives are using the jets for personal use, but at the same time it could be some New Yorkers with a little bit of money chartering a jet from NetJets for a little vacation.

I'm torn on Corporate Aviation. There should be only a select few who have access to these jets for business use. If they want to use them for personal reasons they should have to reimburse the company for that use. I know the head bean counter at a large Aerospace company that uses their corporate jet occasionally. They'll only use it if a bunch of people have to be at a facility for a meeting. When you're talking about executives who are making millions I don't think a business jet is a bad idea for getting them around. If I am a shareholder I would rather the company make good use of these employees time. If they have a 5 day week where they have to visit 7 facilities I would rather they can get their work done and move onto the next one than stretch it out for an extra period because they have to follow an airline's flight schedule.
Pat
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Quoting g500 (Thread starter):
I wonder if Mr. Obama knows that? he likes bashing the private jet indutry

It's better to take potshots at the 1% apparently.

Not surprising from the President Hypocrite. One of the two tax breaks he keeps harping about is one HE put in place as part of his first stimulus bill - that is an accelerated depreciation table. The other one, according to ThinkProgress (which is probably full of BS, but let's assume they are truthful) is the 5-year depreciation window (vs 7 year more typical in commercial aviation) which was granted by a Democrat Congress way back in 1987.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
I'm not up on the specifics, but they do get some breaks on depreciation at least.

Yes, but they still pay 100% tax up front.

If a company buys a business jet, it is treated the same as if they buy any other Capex asset - assuming that they satisfy the tax authorities that it is indeed primarily used for legitimate business purposes. That means that the initial purchase is made with after-tax dollars, and you get those taxes back over a 5-year period.

Example: Microsoft wants to buy a G-V. They pay $50 million for the plane out of their balance sheet - i.e. they had to earn $67.5 million in operating income, and paid $17.5 million income tax for the plane.

Being allowed to depreciate the airplane means you get the $17.5 million back from the government over a period of 5 years.

Depreciation on capital expenses are intended to A) reduce the tax penalty on businesses when buying equipment they need, and B) Make it easier for manufacturers of capital goods to sell their wares.

Considering that the corporate jet industry is a very high value-added industry, dominated by US manufacturers and with a high US-content, you would think that any president would try to encourage the industry as much as possible. But just like his stupid comments a few years ago that people should not vacation in Las Vegas, this is further proof that our current president doesn't have a clue about economics - as if we needed more.
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Quokkas
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 4:46 am

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 27):
I'm not sure where this stat came from but a little research would have been prudent.

Agreed, the reporting is very sloppy. They do post a link to NTSB statistics but if you follow it it shows figures for General Aviation, which does not appear to be broken down into aircraft type.

The table shows 1,466 accidents of which 263 were fatal - not fatalities. The figure shown for fatalities is 444, of which 433 were on board. Either way, the table linked to does not support the suggestion that all the incidents involved private jets. There is some support for the claim that flying "in the company plane" is "safer", judging by the figures in the linked IBAC document.
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BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:05 am

Quoting Dufo (Reply 25):
This one?
It's registered as a Caterpillar jet..

That's one of Cat's corporate fleet. The guy in this story just owned a dealer.

Quoting cmf (Reply 28):
What is your source questioning that they are used as toys?

Corporate America is much too greedy for that. And giving perks to employees is a legitimate business expense, and it's none of the government's problem. The shareholders and management can hash it out as it chiefly concerns them.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
Corporate America is much too greedy for that. And giving perks to employees is a legitimate business expense, and it's none of the government's problem. The shareholders and management can hash it out as it chiefly concerns them.

In other words, you have no facts, just political conviction. And even then you state they are toys. In direct contrast with your earlier statement.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
In other words, you have no facts, just political conviction.

What info do you have regarding the proportion of business vs. personal flights? Or that flights to vacation destinations are aircraft being used by companies rather than high net worth individuals?

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
And even then you state they are toys.

I'm just curious as to why that's your business or mine if they are.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:12 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
People don't understand that corporate jets are not toys. These are real business tools just as much as a laptop or a conference room.

I agree. Most people on this site seem fixated on commercial aviation. Having worked for almost 8 years at a FBO at a relatively large regional airport I've seen how these aircraft are used for business. Say you're the CEO of ConAgra in Omaha and you need to fly to some meeting in a small town in Minnesota, it makes a lot of sense to use a private jet. His time is probably worth $500/hour, why spend that in a rental car or waiting in line at security.

There's a reason that even state agencies own small private jets or turboprop aircraft. They make multiple trips a day to cities and towns not served by a commercial airline.

Quoting dfambro (Reply 4):
I love how Buffet named a jet "The Indefensible".

When Gorbachev flew in to the airport I worked at, he flew in on Armand Hammer's 727. It was called "The Capitalist Tool".
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5288
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32):

Considering that the corporate jet industry is a very high value-added industry, dominated by US manufacturers and with a high US-content, you would think that any president would try to encourage the industry as much as possible.

So, it's the president's job to pick and choose which industries we should encourage? Shouldn't the free market do that instead?

Quoting g500 (Reply 29):
The fact of the matter is that this industry employs 1.2 million people and creates billions in tax revenue for the governmnet, at the end of the day that is what counts.

And that's fine. But why should this industry be treated any differently than any other?

Wal-Mart, Target and other retailers employ far more than 1.2 million, so should they get special treatment too?
 
BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:17 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 37):
There's a reason that even state agencies own small private jets or turboprop aircraft.

...that's because some states have governors who like being governor, but not enough to go live in the capital.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 38):

Wal-Mart, Target and other retailers employ far more than 1.2 million, so should they get special treatment too?

Do you support employment in rural areas? If I was an executive in a large company like Wal-Mart or even a grocery store like HyVee having the ability to visit stores I run would be important to me. Tax breaks for companies that do that sort of thing lead to more stores and more employment.

IMO, discouraging corporate jet ownership is a bad thing and cutting the tax breaks would only lead to passing the cost onto the consumer. One small businessman I know owned a CitationJet he used to fly around to 3-4 banks in rural Missouri a day. He worked on updating their ATM software and installing hardware. No way he could have done that in a car or flying commercially.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
FlyPNS1
Posts: 5288
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:33 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 40):
Do you support employment in rural areas?

I'm neither for nor against it. Let the free market decide if it makes sense to do business in rural areas.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 40):
Tax breaks for companies that do that sort of thing lead to more stores and more employment.

Sorry, but it's a pretty weak correlation to claim that tax breaks for private jets mean companies will open more stores in rural areas. Wal-Mart opens stores in rural areas because the economics of running the store makes sense, not because they have a private jet to fly there.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 40):
One small businessman I know owned a CitationJet he used to fly around to 3-4 banks in rural Missouri a day. He worked on updating their ATM software and installing hardware. No way he could have done that in a car or flying commercially.

That's great, but it didn't create any jobs. If your small businessman didn't have a jet maybe he wouldn't have reached all those banks, but someone else would. So net, no jobs created.

Again, no one has provided good reasoning why private jets should be treated any different than any other business? The reason private jets get special treatment has nothing to do with job creation and everything to do with lobbying by wealthy and influential donors.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying private jets are bad. I'm just saying they don't deserve any special tax treatment.
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:05 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
...that's because some states have governors who like being governor, but not enough to go live in the capital.

The small fleet of government owned turboprop aircraft I worked with didn't always cater to the governor, who did live in the capital city. Even the Highway Patrol typically bought surplus turboprop aircraft off the feds when they needed a plane to move leadership around.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
That's great, but it didn't create any jobs. If your small businessman didn't have a jet maybe he wouldn't have reached all those banks, but someone else would. So net, no jobs created.

So, you're suggesting businesses in small towns like Fort Dodge, IA just hire whoever is in town that does that kind of work? Rather than hiring an entrepreneur that can economically operate a small business jet and provide the same service that someone in St. Louis or Chicago gets?
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
BMI727
Posts: 11179
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:07 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
That's great, but it didn't create any jobs. If your small businessman didn't have a jet maybe he wouldn't have reached all those banks, but someone else would. So net, no jobs created.

The plane doesn't assemble and maintain itself. And someone has to put gas in it and possibly fly it too.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
I'm just saying they don't deserve any special tax treatment.

What special treatment exactly do they get? They pretty much get treated like any other capital investment don't they?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:15 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I'm just curious as to why that's your business or mine if they are.

It was you who stated they are used as business tools and not toys and then went on political motivation when your statement was challenged. Now you try to suppress it when the answers are not to your liking.

Personally I don't care if people use them as toys or for business. But in companies where I am involved it is for business only.

If I see a vendor use private jets where commercial flights are perfectly suitable I take an extra look at the quote.
If we pay for a vendors travel, and we often do, we will buy the ticket(s) or they will be reimbursed the ticket price we found.
Have saved fortunes that way. Especially since we changed to economy travel only after 9/11. Vendors are still happy and there is no difference in performance. Enough to cover the minimum wage increase, if we paid that little.

Again, doesn't mean we don't use private jets, when it is smart to do so. That said we got rid of NetJets, and spent the money on additional factory employees instead. Much better return.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
BMI727
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 44):
It was you who stated they are used as business tools and not toys and then went on political motivation when your statement was challenged.

And you said the same. They are business tools, and even if they aren't, it's none of our business.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Thu Feb 21, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
And you said the same.

No, I said they are used as both, big difference. Sorry that doesn't fit your political conviction.

As to the topic, I see no reason why they should have tax breaks.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
 
sccutler
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RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 41):
Again, no one has provided good reasoning why private jets should be treated any different than any other business?

Perhaps that is because private jets are not treated any differently than any other capital asset. The jet (or turboprop, or helicopter, or tracked excavator, or CNC mill, or concrete batch plant, etc.) is simply another business asset. Accelerated depreciation is a long-accepted means of stimulating demand for high-value goods, and encouraging replacement of older, less-efficient equipment with newer, more-efficient.

Jets do not get any "special" breaks. It's disingenuous and petty class-warfare to suggest otherwise.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
BMI727
Posts: 11179
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:29 pm

RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Thu Feb 21, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 47):
Accelerated depreciation is a long-accepted means of stimulating demand for high-value goods, and encouraging replacement of older, less-efficient equipment with newer, more-efficient.

And before anyone says "Airlines don't do that" it's necessary to point out that people don't account for their personal vehicles the same way FedEx accounts for their truck fleet.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
cmf
Posts: 3120
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 11:22 pm

RE: 30 Interesting Facts About Private Jets

Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:08 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 47):
Perhaps that is because private jets are not treated any differently than any other capital asset.

They aren't?

Quoting sccutler (Reply 47):
Jets do not get any "special" breaks. It's disingenuous and petty class-warfare to suggest otherwise.

They don't? How about different maximum?

But of course it is class warfare (petty no less) to acknowledge the differences.
Don’t repeat earlier generations mistakes. Learn history for a better future.

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