CometII
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The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:17 pm

WARNING: non-political rant (if it gets to become economic/ideologic later that's fine, but as far as I'm concerned they are all to blame)

I'll make it short though.

Last two weeks prices in my area have gone from 3.59 to today 4.04. I have never seen a spike of this proportion. Not in the 2007 run-up, not when hurricanes threaten, not when Katrina, not when there is trouble in the Straights of Hormuz. It's probably up 20 cents in the last four days from Monday to today.

Obama and his administration are incompetent, craven bureaucrats. Incompetent because 5 years in there has been no net improvement in the price of energy. Craven because they were outraged at the rises in gas prices during the Bush years, yet now there silence is insulting and befitting completely out of touch elitist trying to protect their reputations and legacy. Quite simply, unashamed cowardice. And it is not a matter of taking populist measures like opening up strategic reserves or railing against "Big Oil". They need to own up to their failures, and to their hypocrisy of keeping oh so quiet as prices now soar past $4.

Oil companies are crooks. Yes popular to say for a long time, but how can you explain that they keep closing refineries when there is already a shortage of them? Why would you shut down production at a plant if you are actually not producing enough and the price is supportive? Would you not actually expand? Yes, it may be fair to say that building new refineries has been stalled by government irrational regulations, but that does not explain why the oil sector year after year closes more of them down. Don't give me the meat that they are old... they can upgrade them, repair them, and where there is a will there is a way.

Government and business are in the collusion, it is the only explanation. They both win by the current situation, and collusion makes them criminal actors.

If there is divine justice, I hope they burn in their oil.

Rant over.

Nothing is being done about the energy prices (or about the soaring rents in many areas of the country). People are being shafted from both sides of the equation. And get ready for food to go up pretty badly.
 
seb146
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:56 pm

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Obama and his administration are incompetent, craven bureaucrats. Incompetent because 5 years in there has been no net improvement in the price of energy.

That statement right there negated your whole rant.

Please read this carefully:

Government has very little to do with the price of oil and gas.

Oil and gas are mined, refined and shipped by private companies whos sole motive it the dollar. Profit. The price of oil before refining is set by a bloc of Middle Eastern nations and by a group of suits on Wall Strees. Both of those entities are out for their own profit.

Even Keystone has little to do with government. It is a Canadian company wanting to use Canadian labor to ship Canadian oil to the foreign market. How does that help the United States?

But, I digress.

Where government comes into the whole "price of oil and gas" equation is environmental regulations when drilling (so our ground water does not become more contaminated) and transport (tanker trucks getting refined gasoline to the stations). Exxon Valdez could fall under that category, but it could also fall under international maretime law.

The point is: Obama has zero... let me be clear: Z-E-R-O to do with gas prices. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.
Life in the wall is a drag.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:59 pm

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Last two weeks prices in my area have gone from 3.59 to today 4.04. I have never seen a spike of this proportion

Prices in France are around €1.70/liter. That's $8.30/gallon. Consider yourself (still) lucky.

When I went to Boston last December, I fill up my rental car with a big smile on my face  Smile

[Edited 2013-02-22 09:02:26]
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
max999
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:09 pm

While you have a right to be angry, ranting is not going to get you anywhere when major changes around the world are forcing an inevitable rise in energy prices. Prices will always fluctuate with ups and downs in the short term, but the general trend for the future is up.

A few major factors pushing up prices include - oil producing parts of the world are becoming more dangerous/unstable everyday (Middle East), new oil finds are more expensive to extract (deep sea drilling), and billions of people in emerging markets are consuming more oil than ever before. These macroeconomic forces are much stronger in pushing prices up than factors pushing prices down, like building more refineries or even drilling oil in every state of the country (even if that were politically possible).

However, there are many things within our control that will help control our energy costs which we're all familiar with. Like driving slower on the highway, buying a more efficient car, living closer to work, etc. While not all of these are feasible for everyone, it's a step in the right direction to help mitigate the inevitable rise in our energy costs. These are much more feasible than eliminating every last terrorist in Iraq or asking China and Brazil to go back to the days when they used less oil.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
ANITIX87
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:47 pm

Us Americans have no right to complain about gas. It's so crazy cheap compared to Europe and other countries. After all, a gallon of milk costs more than a gallon of gas, so why aren't you ranting about that?

Buy a more economical car, or bite the bullet (I did the latter, my car gets 16MPG city, 23MPG highway).

TIS
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romeobravo
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:55 pm

The government has nothing to do with oil prices in real terms.

They have a lot to do with inflation though.
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:07 pm

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Obama and his administration are incompetent, craven bureaucrats. Incompetent because 5 years in there has been no net improvement in the price of energy.

Not gonna repeat what has been said above, but I want to bring up something:

If I recall correctly, when oil prices began to rise back in 2007 and 2008, Bush was blamed and the response was that it was the free market's fault since government can't control the price. Now that there's a new president, the free market is suddenly without fault...so which one is it? Is it the government or is it the free market? It can't be the free market when a Republican is in charge and the president when a Democrat is in charge.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
ALTF4
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
If I recall correctly, when oil prices began to rise back in 2007 and 2008, Bush was blamed and the response was that it was the free market's fault since government can't control the price. Now that there's a new president, the free market is suddenly without fault...so which one is it? Is it the government or is it the free market? It can't be the free market when a Republican is in charge and the president when a Democrat is in charge.

Just like it can't be the president when a Republican is in charge, and the free market when a Democrat is in charge.

I wonder how that slipped through the cracks?
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:22 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):

The point is: Obama has zero... let me be clear: Z-E-R-O to do with gas prices. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

He does have something to do with the outrageous deficit spending and nearly doubling the national debt since he's been in office, and with the monetary policy that supports it (he does not directly control monetary policy, but so far the Fed has done everything he has asked). Such policies influence the value of the dollar overseas, and since oil is normally valued in dollars, naturally, foreign countries are demanding substantially more dollars than before because of the inherent risk of owning them.

If we balanced our budget today (in a sustainable way), oil prices would probably go down by up to half.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
LAXintl
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:29 pm

Gas prices tend to rise going into spring every year regardless of outside influences.

Why?

1)Per regulations the refiners must switch between winter to summer blends. To do this they must take facilities off line, sometimes as much as 3-weeks at a time. Summer blends are also more expensive to produce as their oxygenates, or fuel additives are pricier.

2) Fuel demand increases as we enter spring and head towards Memorial Day driving peak.

So combined with more limited refined supply (as refineries shut down to make the blend switch) and similarly timed increasing demand its only natural prices will rise.


As far as the comment about refineries closing in America, yes it true. The cost to operate them and make major required upgrades is often excess of what the profit margin is. Due to regulatory limitation there has not been a significant refinery complex built in the US since 1977. So until the economics make it a viable proposition don't expect new ones to pop up.


Lastly regarding cost of fuel overseas - that is much a result of local taxation.
The raw oil commodity price its the same everywhere. Some nations decided to to use fuel as a means to levy incredibly high taxes on business and consumers.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
CaliAtenza
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:40 pm

If its true that we are going to run out of oil eventually, isnt there a way to chemically create synthetic oil? Or a compound that is chemically similar enough?
 
doug_or
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:42 pm

More people are consuming more energy. Expect prices to continue to rise. There might be dips and peaks, but the average increase in energy prices is probably going to keep climbing compared to average wages in this country. Adapt or die.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Boeing717200
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:00 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
Government has very little to do with the price of oil and gas.

Except of course the mandated formula change that occurs this time of year which creates an artifical supply shortage driving up prices. That and for the few lucky states in the Union a percentage based tax that creates an exponential increase.

http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/mf.pdf
 
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Aesma
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:20 pm

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
The raw oil commodity price its the same everywhere. Some nations decided to to use fuel as a means to levy incredibly high taxes on business and consumers.

No, they decided that taxation was a good way to make people consume less oil, make manufacturers improve engines, etc. limiting the imports of oil needed, limiting the need to fight oil wars, fund navy fleets, get in bed with Saudis, improving the trade balance, limiting pollution, and other benefits.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 11):
If its true that we are going to run out of oil eventually, isnt there a way to chemically create synthetic oil? Or a compound that is chemically similar enough?

Yes there is a way, but not at 4$ a gallon. In fact most of the current chemical industry is oil based, so when it will become too rare there will be many things that will have to be made differently, and there is really no need to make oil for cars, just make ethanol or biodiesel directly.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
FlyPNS1
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
If we balanced our budget today (in a sustainable way), oil prices would probably go down by up to half.

Oil prices skyrocketed during the Bush years when we ran much smaller deficits, so your reasoning does little to explain oil prices.
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:54 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):
Oil prices skyrocketed during the Bush years when we ran much smaller deficits, so your reasoning does little to explain oil prices.

They skyrocketed during

A) Economic boom which dramatically increases demand. Not the case now.
B) Threats of war/blocade/natural disaster in oil producing or processing regions. Not the case now.

The reasons for oil spikes present during GWB's administration are not present today. Of course you know that, so why do you try to muddy the waters with the argument?
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
ANITIX87
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
The reasons for oil spikes present during GWB's administration are not present today. Of course you know that, so why do you try to muddy the waters with the argument?

He's not muddying the waters, he's strenghtening his point. If the factors present during the Bush years are different that the factors present now but gas is still rising in price, it's very obvious that the current government's policies and actions have nothing to do with gas prices.

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FlyPNS1
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:27 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
The reasons for oil spikes present during GWB's administration are not present today.

Global demand for oil continues to hit new highs each year, so the demand is still there. And natural disasters, threats of blockades and war are still on-going as well. Sorry, but little has fundamentally changed.

You're just desperate to blame Obama for a problem that existed long before Obama ever became president and will continue to exist long after he is gone.
 
BN747
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 2):
Prices in France are around €1.70/liter. That's $8.30/gallon. Consider yourself (still) lucky.

That's amazing, because I can remember one of my trips driving in Europe back in the early 1990s almost 20 years ago and average cost was about $6.75 a gallon in Europe and in the US at that time it had to be about either side of $2.00 a gallon depending on whether you lived in Texas or California.

All things being equal, if Europe got about a 17 or 18% increase..then current US prices should be about $2.40-2.70 tops.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Some nations decided to to use fuel as a means to levy incredibly high taxes on business and consumers.

I was watching old foreign clips from the 1970s last week and a news anchor came right out and said 'OPEC decided to strike a blow against the US and raise oil prices on the open market another XX percent. The foundation of that retaliatory increase still resides within today's cost (I'm there were addition 'I'll teach you' increases in there as well), now that the US is a major player in all this, they've rescinded none of it. Why give up profit when you don't have to.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 11):
If its true that we are going to run out of oil eventually,

Not anytime soon, the estimated oil reserves of the Oil Barons is in excess of 10+ trillion barrels, as shrewd businessmen, they've priced that out and down to the last barrel and have the corresponding dollar number..and they intend to get that very last penny. No new energy sources can be allowed to flourish freely until that penny is added to the bank account.. that is their thinking.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 16):

Oil prices skyrocketed during the Bush years

And during the Carter years, the Reagan and Bush I years... as they were heavily invested (except for Carter) and they all looked and us feeling sorry about it while secretly counting how much they were making of the skyrocketing..and are still doing it now.

Expect no help from anyone making bank off skyrocketing fuel prices. Troublesome consumer advocacy is your best bet... someone doing 'the right thing' .. is out of the question.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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Aesma
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
All things being equal, if Europe got about a 17 or 18% increase..then current US prices should be about $2.40-2.70 tops.

The difference is that a big chunk of the tax is fixed, it doesn't depend on the cost of oil. So when oil goes up, the proportion of the tax in the final price goes down. If oil doubles, the final price doesn't double here. In the US it does.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
StarAC17
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Oil companies are crooks. Yes popular to say for a long time, but how can you explain that they keep closing refineries when there is already a shortage of them?

That is fairly simple, if demand is fairly consistent and the fact that aren't a large number of oil companies relative to a lot of industries one of the biggest ways to increase your bottom line is to intentionally limit the supply.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
Even Keystone has little to do with government. It is a Canadian company wanting to use Canadian labor to ship Canadian oil to the foreign market. How does that help the United States?

Also to refine some of that oil in Texas.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
Per regulations the refiners must switch between winter to summer blends. To do this they must take facilities off line, sometimes as much as 3-weeks at a time. Summer blends are also more expensive to produce as their oxygenates, or fuel additives are pricier.

Never thought of that but it makes sense.

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 11):

If its true that we are going to run out of oil eventually, isnt there a way to chemically create synthetic oil? Or a compound that is chemically similar enough?

They are working on things like bio-diesel and ethanol to run in the present engines of cars as an example.


Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
Not anytime soon, the estimated oil reserves of the Oil Barons is in excess of 10+ trillion barrels, as shrewd businessmen, they've priced that out and down to the last barrel and have the corresponding dollar number..and they intend to get that very last penny. No new energy sources can be allowed to flourish freely until that penny is added to the bank account.. that is their thinking.

There may be heaps of oil left out there but it is becoming harder and more expensive to mine. Even oil sands oil is only profitable to extract at IIRC around $70 per barrel.
Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
 
BN747
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:32 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 23):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 20):
Not anytime soon, the estimated oil reserves of the Oil Barons is in excess of 10+ trillion barrels, as shrewd businessmen, they've priced that out and down to the last barrel and have the corresponding dollar number..and they intend to get that very last penny. No new energy sources can be allowed to flourish freely until that penny is added to the bank account.. that is their thinking.

There may be heaps of oil left out there but it is becoming harder and more expensive to mine. Even oil sands oil is only profitable to extract at IIRC around $70 per barrel.

I'm suspect about that viewpoint, technological advances and new age applied innovative techniques have made the cost of film production drop like a rock, auto production cost plummet... everything done with machinery is affected - including the oil industry. After BP, (Exxon Valdez actually) I for one have learned..the oil industry simply cannot be trusted at anything they say and I do mean anything.

The old 'it cost us more to drill deeper' comes from a fat bag of 'means to justify anything' they just always seem to have handy. If you paid attention to the last 10 'Oil Executives hauled before Congress to explain unreasonable hikes" hearings... you learned something, or maybe you didn't. But saw Congress treating these people (like the bankers) with a total politeness and dare not offend attitude, while in the steroid hearings they were treating the athletes as if they were 'physical equals' in the WWF pre-match smack talking warm ups. Clearly, Congress knows more than me or any of you and is happy with the current situation and whatever the Energy Companies tell them sans independent investigation. If you can't learn anything from that.. you really do not want to know what's going on.

But in short..if you feel like you're getting screwed... I have news for you, you're 100% correct - you are!
..and if for minute you really think like this..

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Obama and his administration are incompetent, craven bureaucrats. Incompetent because 5 years in there has been no net improvement in the price of energy.

...you need your head examined. If anyone could do something..it'd be the Congress. But they're well cared for...so why should they?
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
romeobravo
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:43 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
A) Economic boom which dramatically increases demand. Not the case now.

Creating one of the biggest bubbles (not booms) in history is not really a mitigating factor.

The only real difference between either administrations' recklessness is that they exist on different sides of the burst.
 
SuperCaravelle
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:02 am

The only thing governments can do to try to decrease petrol and other energy prices is invest in infrastructure for alternative energy. Germany is starting to do that, they will begin investing in a network of hydrogen pumps across the country.

Oil is slowly going to run out (this is not an immediate concern, but the easiest to drill oil has been used up), demand is going to increase a lot more. In the long run, prices will not drop but rise.
 
BN747
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:40 am

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 26):
Germany is starting to do that, they will begin investing in a network of hydrogen pumps across the country.

I could be wrong, but I doubt if there is a powerful oil lobby in Germany as we have here..

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 26):
The only thing governments can do to try to decrease petrol and other energy prices is invest in infrastructure for alternative energy.

The Oil Lobby here (see Health Care Lobby wars) .. will fight that to the death the moment 'alternative energies' start to seriously infringe on their market share. Trust me, they are watching (if not buying up every alternative energy patent issued - and shelving it) every move, from every angle and ready to 'take out anything' resembling a threat to fossil fuel consumption. At the same time..they've put together some super cute n' fuzzy commercials about how their scientist are working 24 hours a day seeking fuel alternatives. Now that's how you politic.. say one thing, do the exact opposite with a vengeance.

Nothing personal, it's just business.

BN747

[Edited 2013-02-22 17:34:11]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
ajd1992
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:03 am

Hey, it costs us £80 to fill a 13 UK Gal/15US Gal tank with diesel.

That gets us about 400 miles - Americans don't know the first thing about expensive fuel. Come back when it's $11 a gallon like it is here now.
 
IMissPiedmont
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:29 am

I would prefer to pay less than what the price is today but I can afford the price. I actually spend less in actual dollars and percentage of income today than I did 30 years ago. You may want to get used to it, it's not going down for a few more years and then you won't use it anyway.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
aircatalonia
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:37 am

Quoting CaliAtenza (Reply 11):
If its true that we are going to run out of oil eventually, isnt there a way to chemically create synthetic oil? Or a compound that is chemically similar enough?

Yes there is, but it takes almost 1 barrel of oil to produce 1 barrel of such substances, that's the problem with biofuels and the like. If you are interested, this is called "energy returned on energy invested" (EROEI).

This means that even if we are producing record amounts of oil, a growing proportion is going into oil production itself, leaving a dwindling amout of "net energy" available to society. The consequences of this are price increases.
 
mham001
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:27 am

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
5 years in there has been no net improvement in the price of energy.

Actually there has. Natural gas is significantly cheaper. So is solar power.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
Oil and gas are mined, refined and shipped by private companies whos sole motive it the dollar.

That is a myth. Most of the oil around the world is controlled by various governments/dictators/tyrants, etc. The oil companies own very little of the oil they extract.

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 4):

Us Americans have no right to complain about gas. It's so crazy cheap compared to Europe and other countries.

I am thoroughly sick of hearing about how much more it costs in Europe (as if that made them superior). Fact is, it is also significantly cheaper than our prices in other places around the world.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Gas prices tend to rise going into spring every year regardless of outside influences.

This is not spring and that is not the reason for this spike, which the OP is correct, seems to be drawing little attention for it's severity. This spike is once again driven by speculators. There are no overwhelming problems in oil areas right now, nor is there a significant demand issue, supplies are abundant even with Saudi Arabia's cutback. The "markets" are both "nervous" about turmoil and "hopeful" of an economic turnaround increasing demand.. And so we pay the price.
 
Maverick623
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:03 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 4):
After all, a gallon of milk costs more than a gallon of gas, so why aren't you ranting about that?

Not in my neck of the woods. Just bought a gallon yesterday, while it was on sale, the non-sale price was listed at $2.80/gal. Gas hit that for a few weeks last month, but other than that I haven't seen gas that low since 2009.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
soon7x7
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:17 am

Having been involved in the fuel shortage back in the seventies, the odd/even fuel rationing event left a mark on me ever since then. I knew it could always happen again.
Apparently many forgot what it was like or now just don't care. As long as the US keeps designing, marketing and manufacturing 8 cylinder Escalades, Suburbans and 6500lb Dodge Ram Pick up trucks, all being occupied by one soul...I'll never shed a tear over fuel costs at the pump. If Americans want lower fuel prices then deter the demand and buy smaller vehicles. Here on Long Island the majority of vehicles are SUV's or Big pick up trucks...nice to have but really...are they used to their advertised, full extent...no. Driving in Europe is such a pleasure as the visibilty on the road is so much better without SUV's blocking your vision. Gas is more expensive, cars are smaller and I would see at least two souls in every car...not one. High fuel costs in Europe have forced the locals to use their heads while back here in the states, the old "bigger is better montra" still rules the road and shows at the pump. Until Americans get a grip...we will constantly be manipulated by the shills that play the shell game here in the gas industry. Truth is...even with all the instability in the world...$80-$100 barel is BS. Especially where the US is concerned...with all the apparent liberation we brought to the middle east, we should benefit from much lower oil prices...(yeah, sure)    Some one is but it is not the consumer.
 
BN747
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:36 am

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 39):
Especially where the US is concerned...with all the apparent liberation we brought to the middle east, we should benefit from much lower oil prices...(yeah, sure)    Some one is but it is not the consumer.

Yep... we paid a lot of Blood to 'free the oil market'.. and what did the US public get besides a warm fuzzy feeling of playing 'the hero'...

...your reward? Higher prices at the pump!

Now where is that photo that as on the cover of a pre-Iraq Invasion edition of USA Today with that Pro-War guy holding up a sign reading " Just Take the Damn Oil'

..I wonder how he feels now pumping his Ford F50.

BN747
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scbriml
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:21 pm

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Oil companies are crooks.

What do you base this gem on?   

I work for one of the oil majors - last year our capital spend (predominantly on development of new production) was over $15billion. Our profit margin hovers around the 5-6% mark. That's considerably lower than comanies like McDonalds or Starbucks.

If you're unhappy about 'gas' prices in the US, come over to Europe to fill up. I spent $150 on fuel yesterday.
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SuperCaravelle
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:47 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 27):
I could be wrong, but I doubt if there is a powerful oil lobby in Germany as we have here..

Probably not. The lobby of the auto industry is quite effective though, and it is perhaps no surprise that the German government announced this just as BMW publicized an agreement with Toyota to research and build hydrogen powered cars. As GM is also experimenting with this technology, who knows...
 
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Aesma
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:21 pm

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 25):
The only thing governments can do to try to decrease petrol and other energy prices is invest in infrastructure for alternative energy. Germany is starting to do that, they will begin investing in a network of hydrogen pumps across the country.

But hydrogen isn't an alternative energy. It's an alternative fuel. It's almost exclusively made from natural gas, oil, coal...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
and his fiscal and monetary policies - inasmuch as he talks about what he wants and what he actually has the power to do - is counterproductive

Well, if he had a "responsible" fiscal policy like we have in the EU, the US economy would tank, like in the EU. Cheap gasoline doesn't matter that much when you don't have a job.
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BN747
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:49 pm

Quoting SuperCaravelle (Reply 42):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 27):
I could be wrong, but I doubt if there is a powerful oil lobby in Germany as we have here..

Probably not.

Now that's interesting... so now I must wonder, why would the most powerful network on earth, the Energy Syndicate (only fair since banks are now called Banksters [said gangsters]) see the need for a powerful lobbying arm in the US..and not in another 1st tier nation like Germany? Sure, we are the undisputed # 1 consumer of product (with China closing in). And China becomes #1...I seriously doubt that there will be a 'Energy Lobby' wing free to dictate to the Peoples Assembly as it does here in the USA.

China isn't known for 'paying retail' and keeping matters 'upfront and above board'...

..by that comparison, it really does look like the US Congress & Energy Syndicate are running some sort of racket on the largest consumer base on the planet...

Edited: because as soon as I posted this, I clicked over to HuffPo and the lead story as of now is this..
Red Tape, Litigation Strangling Development Of Offshore Wind Power In U.S.

...making one wonder, just who is behind all that Red Tape putting their foot down on the neck of developing 'Wind Power'???

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...ind-regulation-liti_n_2736008.html
from the article:
Department of Energy data on the potential of offshore wind in the U.S. is impressive. It suggests that as much as 4 million megawatts of electricity could be harnessed from the steady breezes blowing on state and federal waters along the coasts of the U.S., as well as in the Great Lakes. That's roughly four times the combined generating capacity of all existing electric power plants in the nation today, according to DOE -- and the Obama administration has made it a mission to finally get the industry moving.

Yes, the NIMBYs are in play, but they could never muster the power to 'create all the regulatory agencies and road blocks' necessary to put up such a fortress of obstruction.

BN747

[Edited 2013-02-23 07:53:32]

[Edited 2013-02-23 08:08:21]
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B6JFKH81
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:50 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 39):
Here on Long Island the majority of vehicles are SUV's or Big pick up trucks...nice to have but really...are they used to their advertised, full extent...no. Driving in Europe is such a pleasure as the visibilty on the road is so much better without SUV's blocking your vision.

It amazes me every day the amount of Long Islanders who insist on having a large pick-up truck or SUV just for the purpose of having one...then bitch about how they are financially screwed because it costs them like $100+ a week to fill up their vehicle with gas on top of the high cost of living here otherwise. It costs me ~$40/week to fill up my Honda Civic Hybrid and drive it from W. Babylon to JFK and back everyday, I truly love my car (I'm going to miss it when I sell it off next year), it has a great ride and has a dash layout that makes it very user-friendly. I drive through the snow and ice and all the other crap we get without any problem. If I need a truck for any reason (moving large stuff and whatnot), I can always rent one for the day.

I also agree with you about the visibility. I am so tired of getting cut off by and stuck with having a huge SUV ahead of me and not being able to see anything ahead of me. So annoying      

~H81
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tz757300
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:13 pm

Quoting B6JFKH81 (Reply 45):
I also agree with you about the visibility. I am so tired of getting cut off by and stuck with having a huge SUV ahead of me and not being able to see anything ahead of me. So annoying

I've always wondered how much traffic congestion in NYC would improve if everyone ditched the jumbo vehicles and driving visibility improved. There has to be some traffic delay just because people can't see what's ahead very well.
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STT757
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting CometII (Thread starter):
Incompetent because 5 years in there has been no net improvement in the price of energy.

There's been a huge improvement in the price of energy over the past five years, Natural gas prices have plummeted. I have fuel oil to heat my home and pay about $900 a month to heat it where friends with similar sized homes and Natural gas pay about $175 a month to not only heat their homes but to cook, for their dryers and hot water heaters. My development is finally getting natural gas this Spring, after I called every Politician (Local, State, Federal) who represents my area to pressure the gas company. The Mayor of my town and my State Senator were instrumental in getting the Natural gas company to bring us Natural gas. I'm going to save huge amounts of money in both heat and electric bills.

Gasoline prices are another thing, and while you lambaste it being President Obama's fault I think you need to look a little more closely at the issue. You can start with mass of oil company mergers that were allowed, putting Mobile Oil (Former Standard Oil Co of New York) and Exxon (Former Standard Oil co of New Jersey) was a terrible idea. There were others involving Shell, BP, AMOCO, TEXACO and smaller companies that has allowed them to close refineries and raise their profits.

In 1997-1998 I was paying .79 cents a gallon in New Jersey, today it's about $3.60 a gallon. The difference, less refinery capacity due to consolidation. It's the same thing the airlines are doing, merge to reduce capacity and raise fares.

This is not going to change, my advice plan for high prices to stay. Get a more fuel efficient car, I turned in my Jeep Grand Cherokee and got a Volkswagen that gets more than double the mileage. You can also use Credit card programs to help save, and depending on where you live and shop Shell offers discounts to certain Grocery Store customers. I use Stop and Shop and have save .80 cents a gallon, most times it's around .30 cents. Depends how much you shop.

Check out Shell for details:

http://www.shell.us.com

[Edited 2013-02-23 08:36:29]
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CalebWilliams
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
He obstructs new drilling and technologies (eg fracking),

Yum, tastes like methane.
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northstardc4m
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:28 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Yes, the NIMBYs are in play, but they could never muster the power to 'create all the regulatory agencies and road blocks' necessary to put up such a fortress of obstruction.

Depends which NIMBYs you are talking about...

The Cape Cod NIMBY and Martha's Vineyard NIMBY for example have enough political clout to do just about anything, and alot of the regulatory red tape has come from that direction.

Now other NIMBY groups can just leverage the existing precedence to muck up the process. Wind Power is NOT that powerful a lobby group to begin with either.

Now here in Ontario on the other hand we have about the polar opposite of whats going on in the US. The provincial government forcing wind farms down the throat of local government/population with no apparent appeal available.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
 
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:54 pm

Gas prices should be high, indeed even higher than they are now. The US has the world's lowest gas prices so Americans have nothing to complain about.

The cost to government of maintaining the massive road/highway system actually warrants much higher gas taxes, even moreso when the cost to the environment is figured in. I'd like to see gas prices double -- it will reduce road use, and encourage people to live closer to work and source locally.
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KaiGywer
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:22 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 50):
The US has the world's lowest gas prices so Americans have nothing to complain about.

Might not wanna tell places like Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia and many others that they aren't part of the world...
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Flighty
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:25 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 1):
The point is: Obama has zero... let me be clear: Z-E-R-O to do with gas prices. None. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Well, he could probably make it go even higher. But yeah, probably not lower.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 50):
The cost to government of maintaining the massive road/highway system actually warrants much higher gas taxes, even moreso when the cost to the environment is figured in. I'd like to see gas prices double -- it will reduce road use, and encourage people to live closer to work and source locally.

I agree. Basically carbon taxes could achieve that.
 
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scbriml
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 52):
Might not wanna tell places like Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia and many others that they aren't part of the world...

Doesn't matter. US energy prices are still significantly lower than many places. So you tend not to get much sympathy when you bitch about them.
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Boeing717200
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:46 am

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 50):

Actually, if they stopped subsidizing mass transit with the highway trust fund the the financial picture for roads would be far better. Up until the 80s, when they started diverting highway trust fund money to mass transit, the trust fund ran a surplus.
 
seb146
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:40 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 41):
Our profit margin hovers around the 5-6% mark.

Is that before or after American government hand-outs are figured in?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
He obstructs new drilling and technologies (eg fracking),

Except that drilling is at an all time high.

The problem is the right and their choice not to see oil is going away. There is so much "new technology" to drill for oil still in the ground but it hard to get to. It is going away. They don't want "alternatives" but they want to create a crisis. Like they always do. Invent ways to scare people so they can stay in power. "We can give you more oil cheaper!" and "We can balance the budget!" and "we can fight the terrorists for you!" except none of that happens.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 33):
Hurricanes in the Gulf come and go. That was not a primary cause of oil prices shooting up during the Bush administration.

Even when oil companies jacked up prices and blamed it on hurricanes. Or blizzards. Or a hang nail.
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StarAC17
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:15 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 52):
Might not wanna tell places like Venezuela, Iran, Saudi Arabia and many others that they aren't part of the world...

Their government sells their oil to their citizens for very little and export it at the market rate.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 34):
That is a myth. Most of the oil around the world is controlled by various governments/dictators/tyrants, etc. The oil companies own very little of the oil they extract.

  

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 33):
Hurricanes in the Gulf come and go. That was not a primary cause of oil prices shooting up during the Bush administration.

One of the biggest reasons that oil prices are high right now and highly volatile is trader speculation which amounts to a good chunk of the market price.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:06 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 4):

Us Americans have no right to complain about gas. It's so crazy cheap compared to Europe and other countries. After all, a gallon of milk costs more than a gallon of gas, so why aren't you ranting about that?

Well, firstly, I don't know anyone who buys 20 gals of milk a week. As well, to compare gas prices between here and there is not really relevant until you factor in the somewhat glaring wage differences from one place to the other. Is your min wage 4.5 Euros/hr? I know you're Swiss, but you get the idea...

The issue really isn't the cost of fuel; rather it's one of percentage of expenditure relative to income. I'm willing to bet that figure probably makes fuel cheaper on your end for the average citizen. As well, our vehicles, simply put, do not utilize fuel well compared to what you have available there.

For folks that willingly purchase ridiculous SUVs & Pick ups that have no real utility and negative safety value for other drivers, yes, like you, I have no sympathies. There's no need for such things in the non-commercial realm & if we were serious about controlling the issue, we'd slap a $50,000 registration tax per sale. But we're not serious, at all, about this as evidenced by the resistance to anything being done about this.

But for the rest of us, yeah, we're kind of in a bind and have every right not to like it, and to be heard in that regard. I'm willing to bet that you folks have a much higher percentage of efficient (and let's put the floor for that at 45mpg or 5.06L/100k) vehicles available.

Quoting yyz717 (Reply 50):

Gas prices should be high, indeed even higher than they are now. The US has the world's lowest gas prices so Americans have nothing to complain about.

No, gas prices should be stratified. Vehicles that demand much less fuel should not be coerced into subsidizing cheaper fuel for larger ones.

And as mentioned, there are a lot of places with cheaper gas than us. Whether you want to live there or not is another debate entirely, but they do exist.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 54):
US energy prices are still significantly lower than many places.

As are wages. If you want to make a real comparison, we need to look at all the factors involved.

In the US you have two kinds of people who complain about gas prices. The min wagers that need to work the first day and a half of their week to fill a tank, and then we have rich people who will complain about the cost of anything. One is easily discounted, the other, not so much.

Like I said, I do not feel bad for people who buy vehicles that are expensive to operate, and if I had my way, they'd be even more so.

It's the other folks (and there are a damned lot of them here) that I would really be concerned for.
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Ken777
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RE: The Silence Over Gas Prices (rant)

Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:50 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 5):
The government has nothing to do with oil prices in real terms.

The first impact the government has is with their tax per gallon of gas.

Other factors, though, can have a more severe impact. Think Hurricane Sandy impacted prices. New refineries being built recently? Doubt it with the NIMBY mentality we have in this country. I've actually been waiting for some smart governor to announce that he's going to build the largest refinery in the country so he can help out his surrounding neighbors. Oh, and he is going to put a 50¢ a gallon export tax on refined products. Those revenues will go into health and education as well as building new roads, or maintenance on the older ones,

The other area were we can bring down costs is via bringing down use. The old gas hog tax on the heavy drinkers, and equally as extensive tax credits for those buying fuel efficient cars. We've got a lot of pick-em-up trucks in Oklahoma as well as a lot of big SUVs. Shrinking them some makes economic sense.

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