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stasisLAX
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Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:57 am

2014 Ford EcoSport


This new B-segment crossover, which is based on the popular Ford Fiesta, will go on sale in Europe with SYNC AppLink, which is enabling voice control on smartphone applications, SYNC emergency assistance, automatically connecting to local emergency services in the event of a crash and some other interesting features. Interestingly, the EcoSport was designed and engineered primarily by Ford of Brazil, where the EcoSport has been on sale for some time.

The European version of the Ford EcoSport has been unveiled at a show in Barcelona, Spain, and the above official Ford photo is providing a first look into the production model which will go on sale in Europe later on this year as a 2014 model. Rumors are saying that the Ford EcoSport will get a 1.0 liter EcoBoost engine under its hood, in two outputs, 100 HP and 120 HP, along with a 1.5 liter diesel. There have been EcoSport variants shown with Ford's 2.0 liter Ecoboost 4 cylinder engine as well, which would likely be the engine used in any North American version of the EcoSport. The model will go on sale against the Nissan Juke, the Opel Mokka, and the Buick Encore (the Mokka's badge-engineered cousin in China and North America).

There are rumors in the press that the EcoSport could be moved upmarket with luxury appointments and sold ONLY as a Lincoln in the USA, clearly targeting the upscale Buick Encore as its competition. Lincoln is also launching another SUV based on the new Ford Escape later this year, which will be badged as the MKC - which will compete with the higher variants of GMC Terrain.

GM could also bring their current Chevrolet Trax mini-CUV to market in the USA - Chevy currently sells the Trax (which is also based on the Opel Mokka) in Canada and Mexico.

Source: http://www.leftlanenews.com/ford-unv...ion-spec-ecosport-compact-suv.html

[Edited 2013-02-25 21:59:54]
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Superfly
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:50 am

Is this just a new product to keep within government mandated CAFE regulations?

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
There are rumors in the press that the EcoSport could be moved upmarket with luxury appointments and sold ONLY as a Lincoln in the USA

Why?
Is there really a market expensive econo-CUVs?

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Lincoln is also launching another SUV

Geez, just what Lincoln needs....NOT! :=I
Bring back the Concorde
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:00 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Geez, just what Lincoln needs....NOT! :=I

Do tell, what do Lincoln need?
 
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Polot
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:20 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 1):
Is this just a new product to keep within government mandated CAFE regulations?

No. It is originally from South America where small CUVs like this are popular and with this generation moving to Europe because small CUVs are a growing market there.

Believe it or not not every decision an auto company makes is based on CAFE regulations and there are people out there, worldwide, who actually want small cars/CUVs.
 
Charles79
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:56 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 3):
Believe it or not not every decision an auto company makes is based on CAFE regulations and there are people out there, worldwide, who actually want small cars/CUVs.

Thank you!

It is rather amusing to see many folks, both in these boards and elsewhere, who bemoan the proliferation of small, efficient vehicles as if it were the result of some larger government conspiracy. However, as you rightly point out, there is a growing market for efficient, easy to drive/maneuver vehicles, particularly as fuel prices keep rising and more people navigate towards the (often) crowded cities and urban areas where parking and space are at a premium. When you add to that the fact that most drivers value ride comfort and electronic gadgets over off-roading, towing, and power, then it should be no surprise that the "traditional" SUVs are slowly being replaced with car-based platforms (witness the new Jeep Cherokee).

That said, I do think that stretching this vehicle into a Lincoln is a step too far IMHO. Lincoln's identity is still going through some painful changes - is it a manufacturer of large, traditional luxury cars and SUVs or is it a seller of hip, trendy, iPhone-like premium vehicles? Adding such a small (most likely gadgets-full) CUV with yet another non-descriptive alphanumeric nameplate to its sales brochure (without sorting first the identity issue) is like trying to repair a broken knee with a bandage.

This vehicle will probably work great in the North American market as a Ford; I can already see them in funky shades of green, brown, and yellow, oh and 90% of them being sold with front-wheel-drive.
 
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akiss20
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 4):
Quoting Polot (Reply 3):
Believe it or not not every decision an auto company makes is based on CAFE regulations and there are people out there, worldwide, who actually want small cars/CUVs.

Thank you!

It is rather amusing to see many folks, both in these boards and elsewhere, who bemoan the proliferation of small, efficient vehicles as if it were the result of some larger government conspiracy. However, as you rightly point out, there is a growing market for efficient, easy to drive/maneuver vehicles, particularly as fuel prices keep rising and more people navigate towards the (often) crowded cities and urban areas where parking and space are at a premium. When you add to that the fact that most drivers value ride comfort and electronic gadgets over off-roading, towing, and power, then it should be no surprise that the "traditional" SUVs are slowly being replaced with car-based platforms (witness the new Jeep Cherokee).

  
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Superfly
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:37 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 3):
No. It is originally from South America wh

So it's being imported to the US to comply with CAFE rules?

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 4):
However, as you rightly point out, there is a growing market for efficient, easy to drive/maneuver vehicles, p

Therefore no need for government mandated CAFE rules if the market already dictates a demand (want) for small vehicles.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 4):
is it a manufacturer of large, traditional luxury cars

Not since 2011.
Bring back the Concorde
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:10 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):

So it's being imported to the US to comply with CAFE rules?

Get over your prejudices, it's probably being imported because Fords marketing department have worked out that there is a market for small cheap to run SUV's.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Not since 2011.

Because nobody wanted it anymore, pretty simple isn't it.
 
Superfly
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
Get over your prejudices

????
I'm just asking a question.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
Because nobody wanted it anymore, pretty simple isn't it.

Which means Lincoln is no longer a manufacturer of large, traditional luxury cars as Charles79 claims.
Bring back the Concorde
 
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Tugger
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:49 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
So it's being imported to the US to comply with CAFE rules?

No. It is not. There is a market here for these types of vehicles and Ford wants to have access to it. This is the best and most effective way for them to do so.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Therefore no need for government mandated CAFE rules if the market already dictates a demand (want) for small vehicles.

Great! Work to get it repealed. However the CAFE standards do not bother me at all and in general I support them. But if you want them repealed then work to get them repealed. It is your choice. But not everyone will agree with you (or me) so you may not be able to garner sufficient support to repeal them if enough people are OK with them, and that is how it should be. For now, I am content with them in place.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Which means Lincoln is no longer a manufacturer of large, traditional luxury cars as Charles79 claims.

From how I read it, Charles79 didn't say that, he was commenting that Lincoln is in the middle of an identity crisis as to "what they actually are". Hence his statement:

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 4):
Lincoln's identity is still going through some painful changes - is it a manufacturer of large, traditional luxury cars and SUVs or is it a seller of hip, trendy, iPhone-like premium vehicles?

They may not be currently making them but they are still identified with "large luxury" and there is a market in that and they don't want to lose those customers. So there is a question out there of "What should they do?", "How do they best keep what they have and grow new markets?"

Tugg

[Edited 2013-02-26 12:17:27]
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PHLBOS
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:09 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
it's probably being imported because Fords marketing department have worked out that there is a market for small cheap to run SUV's.

Which is why it would be more fitting for this EcoSport to be offered as a Ford product vs. a Lincoln product. The Lincoln was never intended to be the cheap bargain brand.

With regards to this EcoSport being a Lincoln-only model in the US market as well as the Buick Encore; while the demand for smaller SUVs/CUVs might be the upcoming wave, selling them only as upper/luxury brands could backfire. Selling a very small Lincoln for the price of a medium-sized Ford may not sit too well; especially since both brands are now under the same roof in a lot more locations since the Mercury brand was terminated a few years ago. IMHO, this EcoSport could've been a Mercury (which was more of direct rival to Buick than Lincoln is).

The Buick Encore might have a little more breathing room since most new Buick & Chevy dealerships aren't under the same roof; thereby eliminating any internal competition.
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Polot
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:35 pm

Some of you guys are jumping the gun a bit. Ford is not importing the Ecosport to the US. Rumors that it will come over as a Lincoln are just that- rumors. The Buick Encore has been on sale for a month. If it is a success you will probably see a response from Ford (and other luxury carmakers). If not then you will probably see nothing.
 
Ken777
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:22 pm

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Lincoln is also launching another SUV based on the new Ford Escape later this year,

We actually rented an Escape when we went to Michigan at Christmas and I was fairly impressed with it. I would actually consider it if it had a rear camera (because of two cervical disc fusions - I need that rearward vision) and the center console didn't look like a Hyundai reject. Far too much crap there - actually had a hard time using the radio.

Lincoln could probably do a decent job upgrading the interior and (maybe) the ride, Only problem is that they will probably overcharge by a mile. Pity they dumped the Mercury brand.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
So it's being imported to the US to comply with CAFE rules?

Unless the Ford Engineers in Brazil come up with something better . . .   

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Therefore no need for government mandated CAFE rules if the market already dictates a demand (want) for small vehicles.

Sadly we have a lot of big cars & SUVs & trucks. I live in BubbaLand (Oklahoma) where smaller cars don't have a lot of hope. Every time I see a Fiat 500 I say a little prayer for the folks in it.
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:49 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
I would actually consider it if it had a rear camera

Well, come 2014, thanks to the Government, ALL cars and passenger trucks sold in the USA will have rear cameras. The more expensive cars will have them in the dash/entertainment center, while the cheaper cars will have a little 2-3" camera screen in the rear view mirror.
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BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:36 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 2):
Do tell, what do Lincoln need?

Mercy killing maybe?

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 4):
It is rather amusing to see many folks, both in these boards and elsewhere, who bemoan the proliferation of small, efficient vehicles as if it were the result of some larger government conspiracy.

The proliferation of smaller, more efficient vehicles isn't a problem. The punishment of people who buy other vehicles, however, is.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 4):
Lincoln's identity is still going through some painful changes

Lincoln has a very clear identity. They are far and away the most popular brand among people who think that Fords are not expensive enough.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Sadly we have a lot of big cars & SUVs & trucks. I live in BubbaLand (Oklahoma) where smaller cars don't have a lot of hope. Every time I see a Fiat 500 I say a little prayer for the folks in it.

Truck and SUV drivers became as safe as car drivers only in the very recent past.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13):
Well, come 2014, thanks to the Government, ALL cars and passenger trucks sold in the USA will have rear cameras.

You've got to be kidding. Seatbelts are good, ABS and traction control is understandable, but rearview cameras? Is there an epidemic of smashed bicycles? How many people really want or need such things, and why can't they just get it themselves if they want it so badly? Instead every new car is going to be saddled with the extra cost. Better to just buy used I guess, or rip the thing out to save weight if you must pay for it.
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mham001
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
So it's being imported to the US to comply with CAFE rules?

It's not being imported and from what I read, is unlikely to be.
 
af773atmsp
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:19 am

Don't like the look of the EcoSport, but I don't really like CUVs in general. I prefer wagons, hatchbacks, and MPVs. Instead of bringing the EcoSport to the U.S. bring the S-Max and/or Galaxy over from Europe.
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GSPFlyer
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:28 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
You've got to be kidding. Seatbelts are good, ABS and traction control is understandable, but rearview cameras? Is there an epidemic of smashed bicycles? How many people really want or need such things, and why can't they just get it themselves if they want it so badly? Instead every new car is going to be saddled with the extra cost. Better to just buy used I guess, or rip the thing out to save weight if you must pay for it.
http://www.dailytech.com/Backup+Came...+Completed+Dec+31/article29423.htm

The US Government is working towards it. Article states that 300 deaths 16,000 injuries per year are caused by drivers who "can't see" behind them. I guarantee that the majority of those wouldn't have been any different with a rear view camera. Those who are truly cautious,like myself, always look over their shoulder and use their mirrors anyways.

If I (back when I was 15) could back up a 3/4 ton long bed diesel truck with no camera, I think a soccer mom in her Ford Escape is perfectly capable of doing the same.

Another article I found says that this will increase car prices by $200. I wonder if this camera breaks, would you be required by law to have it fixed?
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:34 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
You've got to be kidding.

Nope. Not in stone yet, but you can bet it will happen.... maybe not 2014, but 15 or 16. Yep. Will be there.

http://www.autoblog.com/2013/01/03/n...-delays-backup-camera-rules-again/
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BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:43 am

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):
The US Government is working towards it. Article states that 300 deaths 16,000 injuries per year are caused by drivers who "can't see" behind them.

I'd like to see the data of "can't see" versus "didn't bother looking."

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):
If I (back when I was 15) could back up a 3/4 ton long bed diesel truck with no camera, I think a soccer mom in her Ford Escape is perfectly capable of doing the same.

Exactly, plus just trying to park so that you don't have to do that as much. I don't see why it shouldn't be left up to manufacturers anyway, as I imagine it will be virtually universal among higher end cars and optional on others. I just don't see why they should increase the costs of all cars across the board.

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):
I wonder if this camera breaks, would you be required by law to have it fixed?

Certainly not in states with no inspection. As far as others, I don't know.

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 18):
Nope. Not in stone yet, but you can bet it will happen.... maybe not 2014, but 15 or 16. Yep. Will be there.

What a joke. Hopefully this will die with LaHood's departure. He was big on pushing ridiculous amounts of stupidproofing technology into cars.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
blrsea
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:50 am

Ford is planning to release this in India too. CUVs or mini-SUVs are becoming very popular in India too. Renault Duster which was launched recently in India has got good response. EcoSport is supposed to be launched in India too later this year.
 
BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:28 am

Quoting blrsea (Reply 20):

Ford is planning to release this in India too. CUVs or mini-SUVs are becoming very popular in India too.

They have to be, considering the conditions there. India is kind of the wild west of motoring. I'd never consider the EcoSport myself, but it definitely beats a scooter.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:52 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 2):
Do tell, what do Lincoln need?

While I know some will roll their eyes at me for commenting this AGAIN, this is exactly what "Lincoln Motor Car" needs..... with proper functioning infotainment system and high output powertrain options!

2002 Lincoln Continental Concept



2015 Lincoln MKR sedan (official Lincoln photo - concept vehicle)


 
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Which means Lincoln is no longer a manufacturer of large, traditional luxury cars as Charles79 claims.

They still make large luxury cars, they just don't make dinosaur RWD body on frame cars anymore.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
Which is why it would be more fitting for this EcoSport to be offered as a Ford product vs. a Lincoln product. The Lincoln was never intended to be the cheap bargain brand.

No reason why it couldn't be spruced up with a luxo interior and targeted at the Countryman.
 
Skydrol
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:34 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 19):
What a joke. Hopefully this will die with LaHood's departure. He was big on pushing ridiculous amounts of stupidproofing technology into cars.

What a joke, back up cameras would be necessary for a Mattel plastic play toy like this:




Many of us learned to drive (and reverse, and park) in vehicles without rear cameras which actually had rear quarter panels, meaning the rear of the car extended past the rear wheels:

Ford:




Lincoln:

∙ ---{--« ∙ ----{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ---{--« ∙ --{--« ∙ --{-« ∙ ----{--« ∙
 
Superfly
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:39 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 11):
Some of you guys are jumping the gun a bit.

Exactly!
This sort of jumping the gun and attempting to start flame-wars over a discussion as Innocent of a topic as a car is why many stop posting and leaving the site all together.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
Which is why it would be more fitting for this EcoSport to be offered as a Ford product vs. a Lincoln product. The Lincoln was never intended to be the cheap bargain brand.

  
Exactly

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 10):
Selling a very small Lincoln for the price of a medium-sized Ford may not sit too well; especially since both brands are now under the same roof in a lot more locations since the Mercury brand was terminated a few years ago. IMHO, this EcoSport could've been a Mercury (which was more of direct rival to Buick than Lincoln is).

Well said. This vehicle IF sold in the US would be better off as a Mercury level brand.

Quoting tugger (Reply 9):
you may not be able to garner sufficient support to repeal them

I have no desire to be a politician what so ever. Besides, government does what they want to do regardless of what the people want.
If you aspire to be a politician, more power to you and good luck.   

Quoting tugger (Reply 9):
It is your choice.

I've never seen CAFE on the ballot.  
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 12):
Sadly we have a lot of big cars & SUVs & trucks. I live in BubbaLand (Oklahoma)

Well you can move to San Francisco where many people drive the cars you like.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 15):
It's not being imported and from what I read, is unlikely to be.

Thanks!
That was the answer I was looking for. Others chose to jump the gun.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 22):
While I know some will roll their eyes at me for commenting this AGAIN, this is exactly what "Lincoln Motor Car" needs..... with proper functioning infotainment system and high output powertrain options!

  

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 24):
What a joke, back up cameras would be necessary for a Mattel plastic play toy like this:

I was thinking the same. Another government imposed law to protect us from ourselves.
Bring back the Concorde
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:41 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
Quoting Skydrol (Reply 24):
What a joke, back up cameras would be necessary for a Mattel plastic play toy like this:

I was thinking the same. Another government imposed law to protect us from ourselves.

Ditto here. IMHO, what's really hindering visibilty on many today's new vehicles are the wider side pillars (containing airbags) and the taller, higher 2nd & 3rd row (if so equipped) seat head restraints. 10, even 5 years ago, most vehicles had either smaller, less intrusive head restraints for the rear seats or had ones that could be easily folded or removed when no in use. In many of these smaller, narrower vehicles; these larger head restraints litterally block one's rear window vision thereby forcing the need for these backup cameras among most drivers. Clearly, this is another example of the cure being worse than the disease situation.

Heck, my father removed the rear seat head restraints from his 2007 Escape for that very reason; he couldn't see through the back window w/them on. Thankfully, my '07 Mustang ragtop only has minor rear seat bumps-ups for head restraints; likewise for my '97 Crown Vic. Today's Mustangs have larger rear head restraints that block more of the rear window.

My solution, change the window lines and modify the head restraints or make them foldable/removable across the board not just on certain models.

Quoting Skydrol (Reply 24):
Many of us learned to drive (and reverse, and park) in vehicles without rear cameras which actually had rear quarter panels, meaning the rear of the car extended past the rear wheels:

Amen, it's also worth noting that those rear windows are unobstructed from any rear-seat head restraints (the above examples didn't have them) and the front seat head restraints (mandated since the late 60s (either 1968 or 1969)) were much smaller and less intrusive.
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Ken777
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:38 pm

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 13):
Well, come 2014, thanks to the Government, ALL cars and passenger trucks sold in the USA will have rear cameras.

Sounds good to me and I bet the insurance companies are also smiling.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
s there an epidemic of smashed bicycles?

If it was just trikes no one would worry and it wouldn't be mandated.

There are legitimate problems and rear visibility reduced by styling is a pretty big factor.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
or rip the thing out to save weight if you must pay for it.

Pull out your airbags and you can sell them for a lot more than the rearview camera system. And those modern bumpers weigh a lot more than the old style ones they replaced.

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):
I guarantee that the majority of those wouldn't have been any different with a rear view camera.

I think you're wrong there. When I've been in cars with a rearview camera i've paid attention to how it performs and the views that it delivers. People who won't use them are the ones that don't use rear view mirrors or windshield wipers.

Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 17):
Another article I found says that this will increase car prices by $200.

$200 is about the price to add one on when ordering a car today. It''s "retail" price for an add on. When you look at economies of scale for mandated systems you can get the manufacturer's costs down to $50 or less. They sure as hell aren't going use a Nikon lens or Retina displays. Or a quad core processor to run it. What the car company adds on to the costs is pure guess
 
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Tugger
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:40 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
I have no desire to be a politician what so ever. Besides, government does what they want to do regardless of what the people want.

You don't need to be a politician. You need to be active in telling those that are your representatives your views and continue expressing them and support those groups that support your views on specific topics. And actually the government does not just "do what it wants" it generally does what the majority wants or what the law requires them to do. If you are on the other side on certain issues then often it is portrayed as the grapes must be sour.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 25):
I've never seen CAFE on the ballot.

Every single one of the politicians that voted for it and that continue to support it are on the ballot. That is have it works.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:50 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
There are legitimate problems and rear visibility reduced by styling is a pretty big factor.

Not for everybody. If it is a problem, just check the box when you buy the car or get an aftermarket system rather than forcing everyone to shell out more for a car.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
Pull out your airbags and you can sell them for a lot more than the rearview camera system.

I'm sure a lot of cars could do with fewer airbags.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
When you look at economies of scale for mandated systems you can get the manufacturer's costs down to $50 or less.

Then leave those decisions to the manufacturers and customers. If the customers want it, they'll get it from somewhere.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Aesma
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:46 pm

Quoting blrsea (Reply 20):
Renault Duster

That's really a Dacia, aka a low cost car. Not sure the EcoSport can be made as cheaply.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
but it definitely beats a scooter

Not with the horrendous traffic !
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Superfly
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:41 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
the insurance companies are also smiling.

The insurance companies are always smiling.

Quoting tugger (Reply 28):

Already have and it's not much of an important issue for them to tackle. Most people aren't even aware of this law.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 26):
Ditto here. IMHO, what's really hindering visibilty on many today's new vehicles are the wider side pillars (containing airbags) and the taller, higher 2nd & 3rd row (if so equipped) seat head restraints. 10, even 5 years ago, most vehicles had either smaller, less intrusive head restraints for the rear seats or had ones that could be easily folded or removed when no in use. In many of these smaller, narrower vehicles; these larger head restraints litterally block one's rear window vision thereby forcing the need for these backup cameras among most drivers. Clearly, this is another example of the cure being worse than the disease situation.

Seems like a serious design flaw if a camera is required to see behind you. Seems as though they're designing cars for the dumbest of drivers today.
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MD11junkie
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):

A Ford Fiesta.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 30):
That's really a Dacia, aka a low cost car

The fact that 'Dacia' is associated with low cost does not mean is shit. Logan and Sandero, two Renault-Dacia line up - share platform - and they are pretty reliable and regular made.

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Ken777
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:03 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
Not for everybody. If it is a problem, just check the box when you buy the car or get an aftermarket system rather than forcing everyone to shell out more for a car.

So you're 6'5" and will never have a visibility problem with any design - now or in the future.

And, of course, at that size no one will fail to see you when backing up. Or any of your kids.

My preference is to have something besides a 100 year old rearview system.
 
BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
My preference is to have something besides a 100 year old rearview system.

Then check the box for the option package that includes it next time you buy a car. Or buy a car that has it standard. And if you want a car that doesn't have it available (which is unlikely) get an aftermarket one installed.

If it's a feature you want, by all means get it. But don't force all car buyers across the country to do it too.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:47 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 34):
If it's a feature you want, by all means get it. But don't force all car buyers across the country to do it too.

By your reasoning safety devices like airbags, ABS brakes, seatbelts, stability control systems (not sure if this is law right now) should not have been made mandatory, it should have been up to the buyers discretion?
 
BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 35):
it should have been up to the buyers discretion?

I'll go along with seatbelts and crumple zones, but beyond that it should be mostly buyers' discretion.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:13 am

So you don't think that airbags and ABS are valid safety devices which should be manditory?
 
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Aesma
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:11 pm

Quoting MD11junkie (Reply 32):
The fact that 'Dacia' is associated with low cost does not mean is shit. Logan and Sandero, two Renault-Dacia line up - share platform - and they are pretty reliable and regular made.

Well I didn't say it was shit, but the cheapness definitely shows. My father drives the highest end Sandero and it lacks features and comfort my entry level 10 years old Citroën C3 has. For example the electric windows are not automatic, you need to press the button all the way. That's not even a cost cutting measure since the same electronics can in fact be made automatic. Also, there is no filter for the interior air, so sometimes the ventilation sends stuff your way !
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Polot
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 36):
I'll go along with seatbelts and crumple zones, but beyond that it should be mostly buyers' discretion.

You wouldn't see much difference. The general public has spoken and determined that they love very safe cars- automakers don't go above and beyond the requirements just because they feel like seeing how many airbags/cameras/sensors/lines of computer coding they can stuff into a car. There is no rule that says an automaker has to get 5 stars on its crash tests- but they all strive to do so and promote the hell out of it when they do.

The number of people who are happy with just seatbelts and crumple zones is so low that all but niche automakers (such as Lotus...and look how they are doing) will ignore them and continue putting in 20 airbags, electronic nannies, backup cameras, etc. Just like how they ignore every other American enthusiast's dream of a diesel powered manual RWD station wagon.
 
BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:09 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 37):
So you don't think that airbags and ABS are valid safety devices which should be manditory?

Not government mandated, no. If the manufacturers want to make them standard equipment, fine.

Quoting Polot (Reply 39):
You wouldn't see much difference

Which is why such regulations are dumb. At best they are redundant, and at worst they are wasteful and add unnecessary expense.
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Polot
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:13 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 40):

The problem is that your choice then can a detriment effect on someone else. YOU may not want ABS, but without them you are more likely to hit someone else (who would have probably preferred that you checked the ABS option). YOU may not want airbags, the passenger riding in the car with you might have a different opinion. You are sharing the road with everyone else. Your decisions can have a major impact on other people's lives (whether they are in the same car as you or not). Why does your right to do whatever you want trump their right to safety?

Then there is the question as to what is acceptable government regulation and what is not. Why are crumple zones and seat belts okay, but not airbags and ABS?

Yes, cars would be simpler and cheaper in your world- too bad your insurance rates won't.
 
GuitrThree
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 35):
By your reasoning safety devices like airbags, ABS brakes, seatbelts, stability control systems (not sure if this is law right now) should not have been made mandatory, it should have been up to the buyers discretion?

Here is the difference. Airbags and ABS brakes are automatically deployed. Same with stability. For the "mandatory" camera to work, one must USE it. Case in point. Went to visit the brother and sister-in-law last month. Parked our SUV in the back corner of his driveway. We left for dinner in his Audi that had the back-up camera installed and activated in the dash. As we backed out of the garage, I had to tell him to stop before he backed into our SUV. He missed our SUV by less than a foot. CAMERA DID NOTHING.

Why mandate something that does nothing if not used? Now, maybe mandate a backup warning system that many cars have... thats something different. But a camera that you may never use? No... let's move on.

Oh, and seatbelts, I think they are the law in all states now. So all cars must have them installed.
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BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:02 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 41):
Why does your right to do whatever you want trump their right to safety?

It doesn't unless I run into them.

Quoting Polot (Reply 41):
Why are crumple zones and seat belts okay, but not airbags and ABS?

It's just a mostly arbitrary line in the sand. The proliferation of expensive government regulation of cars needs to stop. If customers want it, they'll get it.

Quoting Polot (Reply 41):
Yes, cars would be simpler and cheaper in your world- too bad your insurance rates won't.

Insurance companies have the VIN, so they know exactly how the car is equipped. They can adjust.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Polot
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:10 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
Insurance companies have the VIN, so they know exactly how the car is equipped. They can adjust.

What I was getting at was that your insurance rates will shoot throw the roof. Honestly things probably wouldn't be cheaper in the end. Doesn't matter if you equip your car with the safety equipment or not- they will still be higher as there is an increased risk of someone else not having those features to help prevent an accident.
 
BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:12 pm

Quoting Polot (Reply 44):
What I was getting at was that your insurance rates will shoot throw the roof.

...at which people will seek out cars with such safety features. Problem solved with exactly zero government regulations and zero government bureaucracy.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Polot
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:19 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
...at which people will seek out cars with such safety features. Problem solved with exactly zero government regulations and zero government bureaucracy.

But the mere possibility of being able to buy a car without those features will automatically make your insurance higher. So now you are where we are currently at, with cars costing exactly the same. But your insurance will be higher. Nice huh?
 
BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 46):
But the mere possibility of being able to buy a car without those features will automatically make your insurance higher.

How many such cars do you think will be built anyway? You're talking a relatively small number for use on tracks and weekends. There's no reason for government interference. The manufacturers and customers know what they're doing: features that are worth it will become ubiquitous and those that won't will become historical footnotes. I think you're way overestimating the effects.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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Polot
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:17 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 47):

No, this is what will happen:

Automakers will do what they currently do and build a stripper trim level lacking most of the safety features people want. It will be virtually impossible to find, and the automaker will produce next to zero of them, but the will still do it in order to advertise that nice low base price in newspaper, in commercials, and on the internet. They won't all immediately do it, but all it takes is one looking to increase sales and all the others will follow to stay competitive.

The actuaries at the insurance companies (who are in the business of making money, not doing what is right or fair) will go, "hmm, the risk of hitting or getting hit by a car lacking safety equipment to minimize injury or damage just increased from X% to Y%. In order to help maintain the company's financial health, insurance rates need to increase by $Z for everyone, and more if you choose to insure a car without additional safety features."

John and Jane Doe will get cranky and start complaining to anyone who will listen about those evil insurance companies and how they ruin everyone's lives. The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety, the auto insurer's powerful lobbying group, will say: "Hey, we completely agree. But don't blame us, blame your politician. If they required airbags and ABS and whatnot (all the safety features basically every car already has) to be standard on new vehicles we will be more than happy to adjust our rates according."

Mr. and Mrs. Doe will then start complaining to anyone who will listen about how evil the government is and how they ruin everyone's lives. A congress(wo)man, hoping to score political capital from the public in order to further his or her career, will then submit a bill in attempt to make these safety features mandatory. The automakers, who are building basically all their cars with these safety features anyways, will cave to avoid negative PR and the possibility of excessively harsh government oversight.

And now we are right where we are today.
 
BMI727
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RE: Ford Launches EcoSport Mini-CUV

Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 48):
Automakers will do what they currently do and build a stripper trim level lacking most of the safety features people want. It will be virtually impossible to find, and the automaker will produce next to zero of them, but the will still do it in order to advertise that nice low base price in newspaper, in commercials, and on the internet. They won't all immediately do it, but all it takes is one looking to increase sales and all the others will follow to stay competitive.

Nothing wrong with that. Customers should do their homework. This day in age, there is no reason why anyone should walk onto a dealer lot and not know at least as much about the cars as the salesman.

Quoting Polot (Reply 48):
The actuaries at the insurance companies (who are in the business of making money, not doing what is right or fair) will go, "hmm, the risk of hitting or getting hit by a car lacking safety equipment to minimize injury or damage just increased from X% to Y%. In order to help maintain the company's financial health, insurance rates need to increase by $Z for everyone, and more if you choose to insure a car without additional safety features."

Those same actuaries, and pretty much everyone really, will know that there are nearly zero of the stripped out cars on the road. The insurance companies will know it's a drop in the bucket at best, and the customers will know that an insurance using the presence of a handful of stripped out cars to increase premiums is full of crap.
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