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JoePatroni707
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Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:44 am

With the US budget deadline just 48 hours away who is to blame? IMHO 100% of the blame is on the democrats and Obama. They want to spend this country into oblivion, then raise taxes on the job creators which is a huge mistake.
Obama Care is a huge expense this country cant afford as well as all the other spending Obama has done.
To make a budget work we need to slash spending my trillions, not rack up more. I am so scared for our future.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:52 am

The only reason we are here is due to the GOP not wanting to raise the debt ceiling without cuts. Not sure how this is Obama's fault. Truthfully this is a bigger problem for the GOP and Tea Party than it is for the Democrats.

Honestly the cuts just aren't that big, but they will affect a lot of people in a lot of businesses. I just wonder if the Tea Party and GOP will stay united.
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JoePatroni707
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:00 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
The only reason we are here is due to the GOP not wanting to raise the debt ceiling without cuts

Nor should we raise the debt ceiling. That's makes about as much sense as me not being able to make my bills, then go out and spend more or get more in debt. If we get rid of Obama Care, cut Social Security, Medicare, and other social programs we could not only eliminate the deficit, but have a surplus and pay down the debt.

Obama has spent more in four years than every other president in history. Not good.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:17 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Nor should we raise the debt ceiling.

So this is just a flaimbait thread, not based on the real world or common sense?
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planeguy727
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:20 am

It's the fault of the American people. Voting in representatives who promise to NOT compromise, regardless of political party. We did this and we need to deal with the results of our choice.
I want to live in an old and converted 727...
 
BMI727
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:23 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Budget Stalemate Whos Fault? 

Everybody's.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Nor should we raise the debt ceiling.

You obviously don't understand what exactly the debt ceiling is.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:31 am

I think this is way overblown honestly. I think the cuts are very mindless, but cuts do need to be made. I wish that both sides would have come together and cut just as much (actually, I'd prefer more) in the right places.

The GOP has made nothing easy in years, but the Dems are hardly blameless. I do believe we have a spending problem, I still don't see how anyone can think we don't, and I don't believe you can realistically raise enough revenue out of this hole. So both are to blame, sounds cliche, but both had made their errors

I'm not gonna adopt either side's battle cries either, though, a lot of them are full of it too
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
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zckls04
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Obama has spent more in four years than every other president in history. Not good.

That's true of every President since Hoover, because of inflation.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Nor should we raise the debt ceiling

If we don't and we default on our legal obligations to pay our bills, the economy will probably contract by around 10% in 2 weeks- i.e. a horrendous recession.

Even threatening to default is incredibly reckless- it's estimated that the 2011 debt ceiling standoff cost us 19 Billion over the next 10 years just from the effects of making the bond market nervous. Just from threatening to do something we ended up not doing! This is the way the economy works- it's not comparable to your credit card bills.

As BMI727 says above- if you think we shouldn't raise the debt ceiling you need to read up more on exactly what the debt ceiling is!
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Okie
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:54 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
With the US budget deadline just 48 hours away who is to blame? IMHO 100% of the blame is on the democrats and Obama

The budget control act came out of the White House, correct.
Obama, Gene Sperling the White House National Economic Council Director along with Jack Lew then White House Budget Director and Ron Nabors White House Legislative Affairs and Joe Biden VP.
The bill was carried and given to Harry Reid Senate Majority Leader.

The bill does not reduce any debt. It only limits year to year automatic budget increases simply put.

The same 20 state tour with 3 staged press conferences a day that is going on now was going on then with the same children, police officers, infrastructure and teachers that will be thrown to curb if we do not pass the bill are now going be thrown to the curb because we passed the bill.

I will just leave it with the facts.

Okie
 
LAXintl
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:57 am

We've simply continued to spend beyond our means.

Raising taxes and continuing to make the tax payer responsible for government actions is not the answer as it simply helps encourage the out of control spending habit.

Sole answer is to chop, chop, chop.

Yes it might be crude, but at some point we must bring spending inline with incoming revenue.
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cptkrell
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:31 am

Am I incorrect in thinking that the cuts would be approx 2 to 3% across the board? If so (and I may be incorrect), any entity whether it be an individual or a family or a corporation or a government that can't handle a reduction of a few pennies on the dollar probably needs to be shot at sunset. Or at least not listened to.

This tedious perpetual fear mongering by the lame politicians to score D vs R points for their even lamer constituents is beyond obscene.

Although I am of the opinion (and this is only my opinion) that Obama and his power-hungrey cohorts are very smart, very astute and magnificent operators of sort of a Chicago-style thug political cartel that is successfully waging a winning war with a certain amount of masses (about a few percentage points more than half the voting public, think?), I also believe the perhaps ignorant to what really counts political opposition is equally as culpable. Most are dollar/power whores on both sides.

I have seen the US government become another major industry in my lifetime (and I've been voting for one-half century...and I started voting when I was 21), and it appears that most politicians don't give a shit about me, or any other constituants (including you other USA A.netters) as long as they keep their power and prestige. This b.s. about the current "crisis" is just that. Pure B.S. Fear mongering.

Reference the thread starter refering to Obama and the Dems being 100% for blame for the current "crisis", I must disagree (although it appears that this whole sequestration junk began because of Obama's political crap-shooting: it was his, or at least his team's, original idea and now he's throwing it across the aisle).

It's the WHOLE band of bandits on both sides. So, as much disrespect I personally have for Obama and that bunch political whores, I offer no accolades to his basically sophomoric opposition team because most of them are political whores too.

Just observations from an old-timer. But, hey....that's what the forum is all about. Best regards...jack
all best; jack
 
BMI727
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:48 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 6):
I think the cuts are very mindless, but cuts do need to be made.

The cuts are mindless. If you have a car and want to force the driver to get an oil change, you'd do it by making the air conditioner not work rather than disabling the brakes.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Yes it might be crude, but at some point we must bring spending inline with incoming revenue.

Closing the deficit for one year would take something like a 70% wealth tax on the top 1%.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 10):
Although I am of the opinion (and this is only my opinion) that Obama and his power-hungrey cohorts are very smart, very astute and magnificent operators of sort of a Chicago-style thug political cartel that is successfully waging a winning war with a certain amount of masses (about a few percentage points more than half the voting public, think?),

They certainly haven't gotten to the level of running something like that. Emanuel left Obama to be the dictator of Chicago after all. That said, you could certainly make the case that Obama bought 2012 with public money when he bailed out the car companies.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 10):
I have seen the US government become another major industry in my lifetime

You have. Although all spending has increased, the biggest increases leading to the current situation have been entitlements, both from the New Deal and more recently the Great Society programs.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
3DoorsDown
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:35 am

Whose fault. Politicians. They are all a bunch of whiny, sniveling, piss ants who only care about two things. Themselves and getting re-elected. They should all go back to second grade. Third graders act more like adults than these clowns.
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:19 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Nor should we raise the debt ceiling.

The debt ceiling is not something that is a bargaining tool. It would be the same as bargaining with your credit card company over last month charges. You spent that money already there is no bargaining to be done there.

Our problem in this country is we want a certain level of government services and we refuse to pay above a certain amount of taxes. We have to reduce the expenditures and bring the tax revenue inline with what we spend. 1 cant be done without the other and expect to fix anything.
The only valid opinions are those based in facts
 
seb146
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:37 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
100% of the blame is on the democrats and Obama. They want to spend this country into oblivion

Except the right were spending this country into oblivion and that was fine. In fact, the then-vice president told the American people that "deficts don't matter" and kept spending.

But, I keep forgetting, the Bush/Cheney years don't count, according to MSM.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
raise taxes on the job creators which is a huge mistake.

Oh, for the love of....

SMALL BUSINESS CREATE MORE JOBS IN THE USA!!! Not huge multi-national corporations!! These people (multi-national corporations. Corporations are people, per the right-wing) pay less in taxes than many of us do. AND they get more in welfare than all of us qualify for! They get handouts but we deserve nothing? We make so much less than they do. How is that right? Add to that, they don't create jobs (so workers can pay taxes) in the United States. How is that a good thing?

Besides, these "job creators" have had decades to give us jobs. What is our unemployment rate? How has that worked out?

Who's fault? The politicians who "kick the can down the road" instead of actually taking responsibility and actually doing something. At least we know Boehner wants to spend even more, as evidenced by his support of the Paul Ryan budget. That monstrosity has been voted down twice, thank gawd, but he tells the American people it is the Senate's fault they don't want to spend more? I have a little respect for Bohener for standing up for something. Even if it does throw even more debt onto the deficit, at least he stands up for something!
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kngkyle
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:53 am

How about we not put ourself in another recession and worry about our comparatively small debt when our economy is doing better. Why do people still clamor for austerity when we have seen it doesn't work? The European countries that cut the most in 2010 and 2011 are now the ones that have gone back into recession. Our government, wisely chose stimulus spending instead of austerity. Our recession ended much quicker and growth rates have been much higher. Not high enough, but most of Europe would be jealous of our 2-3% growth.

Our government can borrow money at a negative interest rate when you consider inflation. Our debt to GDP is around 75%, compare that with the 230% that Japan has and they can still borrow at low interest rates. We share a lot more with Japan than we do with Greece. All the freaking out about us being the next Greece is so misguided.

Economic growth should be the #1 priority in this country right now. Cutting spending is about the worst thing we could do.
 
Boeing717200
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:11 pm

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 10):

The insanity of all of this is that even with the cuts, the Federal government will still spend more than it did last year and about $1 trillion more than was spent in 2008. The fed apparently never stops spending more yet every single one of us has tightened our belts the last 5 years. Most people I know haven't had an increase in compensation like that in the last 5 years. This pretty much disproves the theory on government spending stimulating the economy. We're no better off as a country financially than we were in 2008 and we've spent trillions trying to prove that federal spending improves things. That's like saying if you spend all your salary on stuff and over borrow against your home to cover it you won't lose that home when you can no longer borrow and spend. This is exactly why we had an economic collapse. People thought, and many still think that revenue (equity) from growth (property value over time) is limitless and it most certainly is not.

I wouldn't say it's "our" fault. Some people know how to save, vote accordingly and hope for the best.

[Edited 2013-02-27 06:13:42]
 
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casinterest
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:25 pm

Quoting okie (Reply 8):
The budget control act came out of the White House, correct.
Obama, Gene Sperling the White House National Economic Council Director along with Jack Lew then White House Budget Director and Ron Nabors White House Legislative Affairs and Joe Biden VP.
The bill was carried and given to Harry Reid Senate Majority Leader.

Okie, to start there you are ignoring the debt cieling negotiations that got destroyed by the Tea Party. This whole sequestration was supposed to be a poison pill that both political parties would seek to avoid through negotiations.

Both political parties failed miserably in that regard. If everyone is so against these cuts, but the argument from the GOP is that we should cut elswhere or more then I feel the GOP position on negotiations is untenable, because there were solutions to postpone the cuts longer or raise offsetting taxes to make it a more balanced approach.

Right now the GOP defense hawks are hopping mad at the defense cuts, whlle the Tea Party GOP wants more cuts. The GOP is going to rip itself apart before long. I just hope it happens sooner rather than later for the sake of this country.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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moo
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:44 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
If we get rid of Obama Care, cut Social Security, Medicare, and other social programs we could not only eliminate the deficit, but have a surplus and pay down the debt.

Why didn't Bush and the Republican Senate do that between 2002 and 2006? Because its political suicide to do it - but its fair game to claim the other side are idiots for *not* doing it.

Its always the opposition parties job to lambast the other side for not doing things that they themselves would never do anyway.
 
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kngkyle
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:00 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
The insanity of all of this is that even with the cuts, the Federal government will still spend more than it did last year and about $1 trillion more than was spent in 2008.


A large part of our deficit comes not from spending, but from loss of revenue. Tax receipts are down to the tune of $350 billion in 2011 compared to 2008. Add another couple hundred billion for the unemployment benefits and you have a huge deficit before spending a dollar on any stimulus.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
The fed apparently never stops spending more yet every single one of us has tightened our belts the last 5 years.

Which is exactly why having the fed do the same thing is a terrible and counterproductive idea. If the government chose the route of austerity instead of stimulus then just look to Europe for how we would have fared. Back in recession.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
This pretty much disproves the theory on government spending stimulating the economy. We're no better off as a country financially than we were in 2008 and we've spent trillions trying to prove that federal spending improves things.

We are growing at 2-3% per year, it has improved things. We aren't back in a recession like most European countries that did what you're advocating.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
That's like saying if you spend all your salary on stuff and over borrow against your home to cover it you won't lose that home when you can no longer borrow and spend.

The government can borrow and spend as much as the market will allow. Using history and other countries as examples, we are very very far away from hitting any borrowing limit. Like $10+ trillion away from being toe-to-toe with Japan, which is still able to borrow cheaply.
 
Mir
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Nor should we raise the debt ceiling. That's makes about as much sense as me not being able to make my bills, then go out and spend more or get more in debt

If you're going to rail against the debt ceiling, it's a good idea to know what it actually is (and it's not what you think it is).

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
Who's fault? The politicians who "kick the can down the road" instead of actually taking responsibility and actually doing something.

   Why would anyone choose to make investments in this country when policy changes are threatened every couple of months in Congressionally-manufactured crises? Just pick a national strategy and stick with it - it doesn't have to be the best one, it just has to be one that we can live with and that we won't try to screw around with for political gain at the earliest possible convenience. And once people realize can feel confident that their investment today isn't going to be made worthless by Congress tomorrow, they'll invest, and the economy will benefit from it.

-Mir
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rfields5421
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:20 pm

The blame for the budget stalemate falls clearly and completely on one group.

The voters who keep sending these fools back to Congress every two years.

We have seen this coming for 20 years as the political process has become more and more separated from reality.

Congress must be willing to work with the administration, even one they do not like, to ensure bills are passed which the President will sign. To keep the government running.

Proposing bills they know the President will not sign without enough votes to override a veto is a failure of the Congressmen's basic duty to the nation. It is a deliberate violation of their oath of office.

FIRE THEM ALL IN 2014 !!!!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
100% of the blame is on the democrats and Obama. They want to spend this country into oblivion

Except the right were spending this country into oblivion and that was fine. In fact, the then-vice president told the American people that "deficts don't matter" and kept spending.

But, I keep forgetting, the Bush/Cheney years don't count, according to MSM.

Going further in the past for blame does us no good, we need to analyze the situation now

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
raise taxes on the job creators which is a huge mistake.

Oh, for the love of....

SMALL BUSINESS CREATE MORE JOBS IN THE USA!!! Not huge multi-national corporations!!

I think that is what he is talking about. I don't know all the details of everything put out by the left, but some of it at least appears to be harmful to small businesses in addition to the larger ones. More research and elaboration must be done, but you may have read what he was saying incorrectly
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Dreadnought
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 21):
Congress must be willing to work with the administration, even one they do not like, to ensure bills are passed which the President will sign. To keep the government running.

Proposing bills they know the President will not sign without enough votes to override a veto is a failure of the Congressmen's basic duty to the nation. It is a deliberate violation of their oath of office.

But what if the President is not reasonable? The House has twice passed budgets which would have softened the impact of the sequester with targeted cuts, but the President and his party refuses to even look at them.

As your post exemplifies, there are plenty of people out there that buy into the idea that we don't need any cuts, in fact we should increase spending, and make our kids pay for it. It's sad when a country has degenerated to a point where the current generation is willing to sacrifice their children's future in return for current comforts.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:34 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
IMHO 100% of the blame is on the democrats and Obama. They want to spend this country into oblivion, then raise taxes on the job creators which is a huge mistake.

If GOP/Bush doctrine was right, the tax cuts Bush put in would have avoided all this stuff. Instead all we've seen it do is fuel corporate and individual greed, a housing bubble and resulting collapse, and waves of outsourcing.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
Obama Care is a huge expense this country cant afford as well as all the other spending Obama has done.

The major inflator of cost over the last few decades for all levels of government has been the cost of health care. Some how you seem to be OK with not addressing that?

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
To make a budget work we need to slash spending my trillions, not rack up more. I am so scared for our future.

Were you saying the same thing when Bush/Cheney/Rummy were spending trillions off-budget to invade Iraq and Afghanistan?

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
The only reason we are here is due to the GOP not wanting to raise the debt ceiling without cuts. Not sure how this is Obama's fault.

  

There was a "grand bargain" on the table during the debut ceiling negotiations, and it was Boehner who could not deliver his side. They don't seem to realize that to make a bargin you must give something up you don't like to get something you do like. They seem to think they can just obstruct till the other side caves. I think it was that very episode that convinced Obama he had to play hardball. On the preceding Bush tax renewal he got reamed out by his own party for putting everything on the table right up front and then getting done over by the GOP, and after those two episodes he's learned.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
Truthfully this is a bigger problem for the GOP and Tea Party than it is for the Democrats.

Indeed, and I note how you mention these two separately. The GOP's biggest issue is that this issue is a wedge, for their own party: their own members and others who call themselves conservatives dislike what the GOP congressmen are doing!

Quote:

While 74 and 68 percent of Democrats and liberals, respectively, approve of the president's handling of the issue, 51 percent of Republicans and 57 percent of conservatives disapprove of the performance of GOP lawmakers. Even among "very" conservative Americans, 54 percent disapprove of the congressional Republicans' approach.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/brink-budget-s...-121007509--abc-news-politics.html

So we see Dem unity and GOP dis-unity. It's like last year's election, where the GOP just could not believe they were backing a bunch of losing policies.

We also see across the board that the GOP, aka 'The Party of No', is the one being given the blame.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 10):
Am I incorrect in thinking that the cuts would be approx 2 to 3% across the board? If so (and I may be incorrect), any entity whether it be an individual or a family or a corporation or a government that can't handle a reduction of a few pennies on the dollar probably needs to be shot at sunset.

It's not that simple. Indeed all the agencies impacted are going to do the cuts, but there are some things you can't cut due to contracts the government has written. This is why the burden will fall mostly on civilian employees, because it's relatively easy to tell them to stay at home. They won't file a court injunction like the big defense contractors will.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
The insanity of all of this is that even with the cuts, the Federal government will still spend more than it did last year and about $1 trillion more than was spent in 2008. The fed apparently never stops spending more yet every single one of us has tightened our belts the last 5 years.

Right, but the core issue is that medical costs are growing much faster than the rest of the budget. This means the money the fed puts out for medical for civilian and military employees, civilian and military retirees, and Medicare/Medicaid is going up like crazy.

Addressing this was a goal of Obamacare, but the distractions thrown up by both the lobbyists and the right wingers made it difficult to get much savings worked into it.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
The House has twice passed budgets which would have softened the impact of the sequester with targeted cuts, but the President and his party refuses to even look at them.

1: When you say "refuse to look" do you literally mean they completely refused to look?

2: Were these proposals ones that "softened the impact" but included stuff that obviously wasn't going to fly for Democrats? As in if the sides were reversed and the Democrats gave the Republicans something that included a bunch of cutting, like the GOP wants, but hardly touched entitlements and clobbered defense?

I only ask this because I think this is a misleading argument. I hear all the time that the House in the past few years passed X amount of budgets but it was the Democrats fault for not agreeing!!! (Only to find out you'd have greater chance convincing the Westboro Baptist Church supporting gay marriage than the Democrats agreeing to the budget the Republicans passed.)

Now I'm not praising either side or excusing them... they both did lousy jobs! But if we take the GOP's bait that they did everything they could (!) but at the last second, the Dems shot it down without consideration, (and that turns out to be misleading, as I outlined above) than us as an electorate are causing the problem by eating their BS and not holding them accountable, even if you agree with that side more than the other

With an issue as difficult and time consuming as this budget, I highly highly doubt the answer is as simple as "the House has twice passed budgets . . . but the President and his party refuses to even look at them"
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 4:52 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
Obama has spent more in four years than every other president in history. Not good.

Evidence? Last I checked, under Obama, the budget deficit has actually shrunk as opposed to grown. But hey, I guess when the guy in charge is from the other party, no credit is allowed. I suggest you discard the chain emails that claim what you posted.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-barack-obama-has-doubled-deficit/

http://www.politifact.com/new-jersey...ticized-fact-checks-truth-o-meter/

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 4):
It's the fault of the American people. Voting in representatives who promise to NOT compromise, regardless of political party. We did this and we need to deal with the results of our choice.

   We have a winner.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 10):
(although it appears that this whole sequestration junk began because of Obama's political crap-shooting: it was his, or at least his team's, original idea and now he's throwing it across the aisle)

You are forgetting one teensy weensy detail: the sequester was an idea thrown as a backup should the Supercommittee fail to agree on cuts and was overwhelmingly approved by both parties. To say that the sequester is solely Obama's fault is simply blind. If both parties were against it, they could have voted against that particular piece.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...hos-responsible-for-the-sequester/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...io-says-sequester-was-obamas-idea/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-congress-owns-sequestration-cuts/

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
100% of the blame is on the democrats and Obama. They want to spend this country into oblivion

Except the right were spending this country into oblivion and that was fine. In fact, the then-vice president told the American people that "deficts don't matter" and kept spending.

But, I keep forgetting, the Bush/Cheney years don't count, according to MSM.

  
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
As your post exemplifies, there are plenty of people out there that buy into the idea that we don't need any cuts, in fact we should increase spending, and make our kids pay for it. It's sad when a country has degenerated to a point where the current generation is willing to sacrifice their children's future in return for current comforts.

Did your generation sacrifice and suffer hardship to pay off the WWII debt, which was 120% of GDP instead of the 75% we're at now? No. In fact, we never paid off our WWII debt. In the 30 years following WWII our debt doubled and we had deficits nearly every single year, yet our debt to GDP plummeted to less than 40%. We didn't pay off our debt, we just outgrew it.

The shock of the depression and WWII caused out debt to reach 120%. The shock of 2 wars and the largest financial collapse since the depression has caused our debt to reach 75%, and could go a little higher before it starts going down. Our government will likely continue to have annual deficits every year for the next 30 years just as it did following WWII. It is not a problem as long as we grow. Austerity will kill growth.

Let's look at what our annual deficits have been since the recession.

2008: $459 Billion
2009: $1413 Billion
2010: $1294 Billion
2011: $1299 Billion
2012: $1100 Billion
2013: $900 Billion

Notice a trend? Down over $500 billion in the past 5 years, and the drop is quickening.

Just an example of what growth does: If our economy grows at a modest 3% a year, that means we can afford an annual deficit of $350 billion without increasing our debt-to-gdp %. We don't need a surplus to reduce our debt. And unlike many of our European and Asian counterparts, we have the demographics (relatively quick growing population) to support prolonged economic growth.

Our debt isn't an issue. Get over it.
 
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
But what if the President is not reasonable? The House has twice passed budgets which would have softened the impact of the sequester with targeted cuts, but the President and his party refuses to even look at them.

If he was unreasonable then congress would be able to send him a veto-proof majority.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 9):
Yes it might be crude, but at some point we must bring spending inline with incoming revenue.

Yes, but I question if that is wise in the short term where no one is spending. Look at what austerity has done on Europe IIRC the UK might actually have a triple dip recession because David Cameron is still pushing austerity.

Once the economy starts growing again put in a plan to balance the budget in the medium term and it will attract investment. Short term austerity will actually decrease the amount of revenue the government receives because when people get laid off they go on unemployment and they stop paying taxes at best its a zero-sum game and we are worse off because the consumer isn't spending.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Closing the deficit for one year would take something like a 70% wealth tax on the top 1%.

Anyone who is suggesting a balanced budget in one year needs their head examined.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 13):
Our problem in this country is we want a certain level of government services and we refuse to pay above a certain amount of taxes. We have to reduce the expenditures and bring the tax revenue inline with what we spend. 1 cant be done without the other and expect to fix anything.

I'll get flamed but from the outside looking in the US is under taxed.

Quoting moo (Reply 18):
Why didn't Bush and the Republican Senate do that between 2002 and 2006? Because its political suicide to do it - but its fair game to claim the other side are idiots for *not* doing it.

Bush said IIRC "I will not balance the budget on the backs of the poor".
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting kngkyle (Reply 27):
Let's look at what our annual deficits have been since the recession.

And don't forget about $4T of that debt is actually earning money in the form of the "Quantitative Easing" that the Treasury has done. Yes it is likened to "printing money" but in truth they are buying assets that can be later sold and can grow in value.

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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:04 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
We're no better off as a country financially than we were in 2008

Depends when in 2008. We aren't better off than we were before the financial crash it's true, but we are most certainly better off than when Obama took office.

As others have opined, now is not the time to worry about the deficit. Austerity doesn't work, as Europe has shown. The ONLY thing lawmakers should be focused on right now is job creation. Especially since voters overwhelmingly believe that should be the priority. Right now the deficit is propping up the economy and reducing it (either by cuts or new taxes on the middle class) will contract the economy.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
If we get rid of Obama Care, cut Social Security, Medicare, and other social programs we could not only eliminate the deficit, but have a surplus and pay down the debt.

Problem is that few in America want any of those programs touched, because they're extremely popular (even ObamaCare has broad support across the political spectrum; it's only the individual mandate part of it some don't like because that's the part which pays for it). People want cuts but not to anything which affects them. It's a kind of NIMBYism. The only thing people want to eliminate is "waste", which is why politicians talk about it so much. Problem is that there isn't a whole lot of waste to cut, and what there is won't save us very much money.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 21):
FIRE THEM ALL IN 2014 !!!!

Problem is, we'll just vote in more. As you say, the electorate are the problem here.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:04 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 14):
SMALL BUSINESS CREATE MORE JOBS IN THE USA!!! Not huge multi-national corporations!!

Do you know the definition of an economic positive driving small business?

25 to 100 employees
Growing employment by at least 10% per year
Employees have medical insurance and retirement coverage through their employer.

Any business 'smaller' than this and without those benefits for employees is a economic burden on the nation, not a job creation organization.

Somewhere the definition of small business has been changed to include small shops without benefits and paying near minimum wage. Those businesses might create a few jobs, but they do not improve the economy.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
The House has twice passed budgets which would have softened the impact of the sequester with targeted cuts,

The House is completely irresponsible in this situation. Their duty is to pass a budget which will pass the Senate and be signed.

If they cannot pass what they consider a reasonable budget by a veto proof majority - then all they are doing is playing political games.

They are not fulfilling their oath of office or their duties to the tax payers of this nation.

I'm not saying the Democrats or President are not playing the same stupid game.

But the politics of stalemate are an insult to the citizens of this nation. The Republicans in the House are every bit as guilty as the Democrats in the Senate and White House.

FIRE THEM ALL IN 2014!!!
 
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:30 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
Going further in the past for blame does us no good, we need to analyze the situation now

Seemed to work until 2008.

What I want to know is: Democrats are willing to negotiate. The right is not. Why is that?

Also: the right keeps complaining that Obama is going around the country and why isn't Obama in Washington? Well, you politicians know where he is and know he is willing to compromise, so send him something he can deal with or, at the very least, go to where he will be and work with him there instead of sitting on you kiesters in Washington complaining.

More to the point: you on the right should work with Democrats in the House and Senate to get things done instead of taking three and four day weekends every week. IIRC, under Pelosi, the House was in session five days a week, except holidays. She kept saying "WE need to get this done" and "WE need to get that done" as opposed to the current right-wing leadership saying "it is their fault" and "they are not doing anything".

And, yes, I still believe both sides are to blame. I am pointing out one component of what I see going on.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:42 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 22):
More research and elaboration must be done

I think you should take into consideration that:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 26):

You are forgetting one teensy weensy detail: the sequester was an idea thrown as a backup should the Supercommittee fail to agree on cuts and was overwhelmingly approved by both parties.

And before that we had the 'commission report' etc.

So there's been more than enough time for that kind of work.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
The only reason we are here is due to the GOP not wanting to raise the debt ceiling without cuts.

Can you explain why the Democrats don't want cuts? Shouldn't EVERYONE in the government want cuts (which aren't really cuts anyway, but merely slowing the rate of the annual increases) to help get the budget under control?
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting planeguy727 (Reply 4):
It's the fault of the American people. Voting in representatives who promise to NOT compromise, regardless of political party.
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 21):
The voters who keep sending these fools back to Congress every two years.

That's right. Why oh why do people keep sending these bums back term after term? Congress' approval rating is at crush depth and has been for years, yet when the time comes to change things, the incumbents get another trip to D.C. I guess too many people think "they're all worthless except my representative or senator." Enough is enough! Can't we have a "no confidence" vote like they do in other countries?

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 12):
Politicians. They are all a bunch of whiny, sniveling, piss ants who only care about two things. Themselves and getting re-elected. They should all go back to second grade. Third graders act more like adults than these clowns.

  

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Reply 2):
If we get rid of Obama Care, cut Social Security, Medicare,

I'd really prefer that you leave Social Security and Medicare alone - I'll be collecting the former and be eligible for the latter in a few years. Maybe buy a few dozen fewer F-35's and a sub or two less to pay for them
 
 
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
Shouldn't EVERYONE in the government want cuts (which aren't really cuts anyway, but merely slowing the rate of the annual increases) to help get the budget under control?

I think Democrats do want cuts, but they're not the same cuts the Republicans want. Hence, the problems we're having.

The other problem is that government revenue as a % of GDP is at record lows. Despite the fact that GDP hasn't fallen, government revenues have. So where's all the money going? If we had a similar % of revenue of GDP as we had in the late 90's, you'd cut the deficit in half.

On a side note, your quote from Reagan is quite ironic given that while Reagan claimed government was a problem, he had no problem signing budgets that significantly increased government spending and produced deficits.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
It's sad when a country has degenerated to a point where the current generation is willing to sacrifice their children's future in return for current comforts.

To be fair, that's been going on now for quite a while. The WWII generation made out like bandits on programs like SS and Medicare...not to mention on their defined benefit pensions. Their gains started the ball rolling in terms of deficit spending and sacrificing future generation's for the current generation's comforts.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 16):
This pretty much disproves the theory on government spending stimulating the economy. We're no better off as a country financially than we were in 2008 and we've spent trillions trying to prove that federal spending improves things.

Take a look at your 401K today versus 2008....most people are vastly better off in that regard. You say we aren't better off with government spending, but you can't really know that because you don't know what would have happened if the government hadn't spent all that money. And if you are correct, then we should just slash a trillion dollars in government spending tomorrow and see no impact....yet somehow few conservatives are willing to go down that path.
 
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:37 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 28):
Anyone who is suggesting a balanced budget in one year needs their head examined.

I'm not saying it needs to, I'm just illustrating the magnitude of the issue. Anyone who says this is a revenue problem needs their head examined. Coming up a few bucks short is a revenue problem. Outspending revenue by better than 50% is not a revenue problem. Drunken sailors look like Suze Orman compared to the government.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
So where's all the money going?

Into the pockets of Americans. I fail to see how that is scandalous.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
Can you explain why the Democrats don't want cuts?

I guess you haven't hear Obama mention the "balanced approach" over the last, oh, six to nine months? No one wants cuts, but if they are done in conjunction with tax reforms then a compromise can be reached.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
I think Democrats do want cuts, but they're not the same cuts the Republicans want.

AFAIK the "Republicans" haven't ever named the cuts they are willing to vote for. AFAIK At during the "fiscal cliff", the best they did was that they named some reduction dollar targets.

I say "Republicans" in quotes, because they aren't at all speaking in one voice.

One small slice will allow for some tax reforms, but they are getting beaten down by the "read my lips" types.

All of them are doing a great job at making sure they disappear as a party. They are widely viewed as a party of obstructionists. At a time when the citizens are having to make tough choices, they are seen as refusing to do so. They just lost the presidential election and don't agree why. They've got the internal battle of the tea party types versus the centrists/RINOs. They've got Karl Rove out there raising funds for more centrist/RINO types to run against the Tea Partiers. They have many in their number who are moving to block immigration reform and thus guarantee future defeats. On top of that, the polls show they are going to be the ones to take the blame for the sequester. Should be an ugly few months for the GOP.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
Into the pockets of Americans. I fail to see how that is scandalous.

It's not scandalous, but it completely undermines the story that taxes are "hurting" the economy. The economy has more of it's revenue to spend as it wants than anytime in recent history.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
Outspending revenue by better than 50% is not a revenue problem.

It's both. We do have a spending problem, but we also have a revenue problem. With current revenues, it's almost impossible to balance the budget based solely on cuts.
 
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:53 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
Can you explain why the Democrats don't want cuts? Shouldn't EVERYONE in the government want cuts (which aren't really cuts anyway, but merely slowing the rate of the annual increases) to help get the budget under control?

No. Some of us want growth. It is the best way to reduce the deficit after all. And it's how we have historically overcome our deficits. You outgrow them.

I certainly don't want to follow Europe's lead back into a recession.

[Edited 2013-02-27 12:54:58]
 
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:55 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 32):
What I want to know is: Democrats are willing to negotiate. The right is not. Why is that?

Because they are, you have bias of your own. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of politicians on the right that aren't budging. You see that on the left too, entitlement cuts are pretty much a sacred cow for some of them. You have Republicans right now breaking ranks and some definitely want compromise. Didn't a bunch of Republicans sign on to something fighting prop 8? I heard that today.

You rightly call out the double standard on the right but don't forget it happens on the left as well. Not holding them accountable, even if you agree with their positions, doesn't do anyone good

Quoting Revelation (Reply 33):
I think you should take into consideration that:

Huh? That has nothing to do with what I was talking about
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 39):
It's not scandalous, but it completely undermines the story that taxes are "hurting" the economy.

Taxes don't help the economy. Some of the things taxes pay for are needed to have an economy at all, but the stock market never crashed because taxes weren't high enough. Companies don't lay off workers because the tax bills are too low.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 39):
It's both. We do have a spending problem, but we also have a revenue problem.

Mostly spending. It's like a guy working at McDonald's buying a Gulfstream and then saying that he just doesn't quite make enough money.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 34):
Can you explain why the Democrats don't want cuts? Shouldn't EVERYONE in the government want cuts (which aren't really cuts anyway, but merely slowing the rate of the annual increases) to help get the budget under control?

Cuts slow growth. We need growth. We don't need to reduce the deficit. It's as simple as that.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
ut the stock market never crashed because taxes weren't high enough.

.

The stock market is doing just fine - thank you very much

Dow rallies to new 5-year high

http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/27/inve...stocks-markets/index.html?iid=Lead
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:11 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 43):
We don't need to reduce the deficit. It's as simple as that.

     

Holy crap, If you actually believe that, your head must be examined!
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:27 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 45):
Holy crap, If you actually believe that, your head must be examined!

Once the economy has recovered we can worry about the deficit. Right now it is a non-issue.

If you think I need my head examined, tell me why this is so urgent.

[Edited 2013-02-27 15:29:04]
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:51 pm

All of them! With a slight nod to the Republicans in the House. And also to all the BS government waste and crap like subsidizing tobbaco and other stuff.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:04 am

Quoting zippyjet (Reply 47):
And also to all the BS government waste and crap like subsidizing tobbaco and other stuff.

Ill take subsidizing tobacco off the table if you take subsidizing green energy off the table  
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 46):
Once the economy has recovered we can worry about the deficit. Right now it is a non-issue.

If you think I need my head examined, tell me why this is so urgent.

I think you are the only person I've heard say that. Not even Obama is saying the deficit isn't a problem. As economic experts why they think it's urgent.
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RE: Budget Stalemate Whos Fault?

Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:27 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 17):
Okie, to start there you are ignoring the debt cieling negotiations that got destroyed by the Tea Party

I am not ignoring anything.
Just stating that I just can not remember a politician spending hundreds of millions of tax dollars on a political tour to condemn legislation that came out of his own office. So best he can do try to blame someone else.

So it sounds like a meager 2.5% shift in budget seems to totally escape the capabilities of the several hundred thousand government heads. Amazing. Most businesses would probably take 8 seconds to figure out how to deal with a 2.5% cut.

Okie
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