NorthstarBoy
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Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:58 am

The question is self evident.

When we have to register our cars, houses, boats, planes and other objects, why are Second Amendment Advocates pitching such a huge fit about registering firearms?

The reason not to object would seem to be a no brainer, it allows law enforcement to be aware of what guns any particular individual owns so that when they respond to that Domestic Violence call in the middle of the night the officer will know what to expect and can respond accordingly.

So, tell me, why object? What's the big deal about having to inform the police how many guns you own, what type weapons you own and their status: Secured, unsecured, operative, inoperative.
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aloges
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:04 am

People have been brainwashed into believing that registration is the first step towards confiscation and that they can only defend themselves from tyranny if they have their own private arsenals. It is neither a rational line of thought nor supported by facts, but nevertheless it exists.

[Edited 2013-03-06 02:05:09]
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):

While this is true, I think there's a little more to it than that...

Simply put, Americans don't like being told what to do. Even when the benefits and indeed (in this case) the necessity are present. We have a tendency to conflate ideals of freedom with the complete disposal of responsibility. This isn't the first time in our history that we've resisted doing the sensible or right thing on the basis of "well, we've never had to do this before, and I don't have a problem, so why should I comply with this..." Hell, one time we had to fight a whole damned war, within our own borders no less, just to wean some of people off the habit of owning other people. The issue is different, but the logic is the same. No matter obviously beneficial something is, it's always automatically bad if it's the gov't doing the fixing.

I think eventually this will pass, along with successively more restrictive measures as time goes by. But in the meantime, the rest of us sure will hear about it and have to endure...
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falstaff
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:37 pm

Quoting NorthstarBoy (Thread starter):
The reason not to object would seem to be a no brainer, it allows law enforcement to be aware of what guns any particular individual owns so that when they respond to that Domestic Violence call in the middle of the night the officer will know what to expect and can respond accordingly

If a law enforcement officers sees that nobody owns a gun at a residence and then proceeds to the call as if there will be no guns he/she is acting very stupidly. Who knows who is actually there and what they have, legal or not. A police officer comes on to a scene like that expecting the worst.

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
People have been brainwashed into believing that registration is the first step towards confiscation and that they can only defend themselves from tyranny if they have their own private arsenals.

The only reason the government needs to know if you have something is to tax it or take it. I tend to think they would tax guns. They tax the hell out of everything to begin with. My cars are registered with the government, they are taxed, my home is registered with the government, it is taxed. Boats, campers, airplanes, snow mobiles, etc, are registered by the government and are private property, they are all taxed. I would see no reason why the government wouldn't tax guns too.

The only problem is that people assume that everyone will register their guns. They all will not, I will not (at least all of them). Some of my guns go back in my family far enough there are, and never was, and record of purchase. How will government insure compliance? Will they go to every home and business in the USA and search it to be sure there is no gun? The civil right and civil liberties groups will have a fit. Those are on the far left and the far right tend to love their freedom and will not let government search and seize without a warrant.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:46 pm

To put into perspective:

Germany has recently completed a federal register of privately held guns (before it was a state matter, with no federal coordination). There are a bit more than 5 million legally registered guns in private hands in Germany (I don´t remember the exact figure), but the head of the Bundeskriminalamt (the approximate equivalent of the FBI in Germany, though with less powers) had stated that his department estimates that there are about 20 million illegal and unregistered guns around over here.

Jan
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soon7x7
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:04 pm

OK...Consider this. Lets just say you own Gun Type "A". Somewhere within a 20 mile radius someone has recently murdered another with....with (Gun Type A). Lets assume that everyone within that 20 mile radius, prior to the murder registered their (Gun Type A). Lets again assume maybe 35 gun owners have this (Gun Type A). Wouldn't you think that since you are now in a system that has mapped out all the 35 owners of (Gun Type A) that they all will automatically be flagged as potential criminals? You have now availed yourself to a bad day.

I do believe that no one can really justify the owning of an assault rifle for personal use, I also beleive the surrendering of constitutional rights can be equally as dangerous.
 
luv2fly
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:09 pm

IMHO no solution is going to be perfect, though that doesn't mean we stop trying. And that right there is what I see as going to happen. The NRA will keep knocking down any change in hopes the public gives up the fight.
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mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:03 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 5):
I also beleive the surrendering of constitutional rights can be equally as dangerous

Well.. How do you feel about Voter Registration?
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romeobravo
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:38 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 5):
OK...Consider this. Lets just say you own Gun Type "A". Somewhere within a 20 mile radius someone has recently murdered another with....with (Gun Type A). Lets assume that everyone within that 20 mile radius, prior to the murder registered their (Gun Type A). Lets again assume maybe 35 gun owners have this (Gun Type A). Wouldn't you think that since you are now in a system that has mapped out all the 35 owners of (Gun Type A) that they all will automatically be flagged as potential criminals? You have now availed yourself to a bad day.

Perhaps though this will lead to a greater ability to solve murder crimes which could result in a lower homicide rate and the inconvenience of being a suspect, or indeed, dying, will be reduced.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:58 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 5):

I posted a fictional dialogue in another thread a while back.

LEO: Mr. Fr8mech? Good day.
Fr8mech: Good day.
LEO: Mr. Fr8mech, last night a crime was committed in downtown Louisville (18 miles away) and a .40 caliber bullet was recovered. According to registration data, you have a .40 caliber Springfield XD40 sub-compact registered in your name. Is this correct?
Fr8mech: Yes.
LEO: Please account for your firearm and your whereabouts during yesterday during the time the crime was committed. Also, we will need to impound your firearm in order to perform ballistics testing.

I was assured that it would never happen that way.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 3):
The only reason the government needs to know if you have something is to tax it or take it.

Yup.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Perhaps though this will lead to a greater ability to solve murder crimes which could result in a lower homicide rate and the inconvenience of being a suspect, or indeed, dying, will be reduced.

Or, it will lead to a police state where innocent people are presumed guilty simply because they own a gun.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 7):
Well.. How do you feel about Voter Registration?

And exactly how does that play into this? We have voter registration in order to assure ourselves that those folks voting are eligible to vote. You and I both know that I don't think the requirements go far enough, but that's besides the point.

Firearms registration is not a way to cull the ineligible from owning a gun...we already have background checks for that (and, if you've been paying attention, I'm for universal background check), registration is a way for the the authorities to know who has a gun, legally. I don't want the government to know that. The government has failed to provide a compelling reason for having that information.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:17 pm

Quoting soon7x7 (Reply 5):
OK...Consider this. Lets just say you own Gun Type "A". Somewhere within a 20 mile radius someone has recently murdered another with....with (Gun Type A). Lets assume that everyone within that 20 mile radius, prior to the murder registered their (Gun Type A). Lets again assume maybe 35 gun owners have this (Gun Type A). Wouldn't you think that since you are now in a system that has mapped out all the 35 owners of (Gun Type A) that they all will automatically be flagged as potential criminals? You have now availed yourself to a bad day.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
I posted a fictional dialogue in another thread a while back.

Wow you guys both wearing tinfoil hats, do you think this ever happens in other countries where guns are registered? good grief, register your guns it's pretty simple, you register yours cars, you register where you live, what's the big deal registering your guns, most other countries manage it without any problems.
 
Stabilator
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:21 pm

1) Confiscation
2) Taxation
3) Remember the fiasco where a Northeastern newspaper got ahold of a list of gun owners, then published it? Expect that, but a much larger scale. Registration should not be public information.


I'll also leave this here, have a laugh:
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dl021
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:27 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
People have been brainwashed into believing that registration is the first step towards confiscation

It's not brainwashing, and by calling it such and accusing people who resist greater governemnt interference in their lives of paranoia and other accusations causes people to start arguing about the wrong things. It makes people defensive and angry, which does little to advance debates.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
There are a bit more than 5 million legally registered guns in private hands in Germany (I don´t remember the exact figure), but the head of the Bundeskriminalamt (the approximate equivalent of the FBI in Germany, though with less powers) had stated that his department estimates that there are about 20 million illegal and unregistered guns around over here.

another point against the federal registration of firerams. The majority of crimes ares committed using illegally owned firearms. There are already an estimated 275 million firearms in private hands in the US. How are you reliably going to account and register all of those firearms? How much will be spent in the pointless endeavour? Hundreds of millions of firearms will remain unregistered and millions of criminals created, while doing little to slow criminals from committing crimes.

Registration is yet another high hope by people who believe that more laws and regulations will solve issues that are already regulated but not being addressed by the LEO authorities involved.
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mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:33 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Or, it will lead to a police state where innocent people are presumed guilty simply because they own a gun.

Or because they are brown in Arizona... (SB170). Is it not the same issue?

Registering people for one right is just as good registering people for another,.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
And exactly how does that play into this? We have voter registration in order to assure ourselves that those folks voting are eligible to vote. You and I both know that I don't think the requirements go far enough, but that's besides the point.

It has everything to do with it! Both are constitutional rights, lets make sure that everyone is nice and papered up BEFORE they get to exercise them

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 11):
1) Confiscation
2) Taxation
3) Remember the fiasco where a Northeastern newspaper got ahold of a list of gun owners, then published it? Expect that, but a much larger scale. Registration should not be public information.

Is that applicable to Voter Registration too? Will voter registration lead to vote taxation?
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fr8mech
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
Wow you guys both wearing tinfoil hats,

What other reason would exist for a registration database, then? If I were a police commander and I had this tool at my disposal, the first question I would ask is "who has a firearm in that caliber in this area"?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
do you think this ever happens in other countries where guns are registered?

Do you know that it doesn't? Are you privy to the police investigations of every shooting?

Again, we are told that if we register our guns, gun violence will go down. I can't understand how it could go down if the police don't use the tool to find the gun used in the crime.

The only other possible explanation for a registration database is so that the government knows who has guns so that they may tax them or take them.

And, as I've said before in other, non-gun, threads...the power to tax is the power to destroy.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Stabilator
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:39 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Is that applicable to Voter Registration too? Will voter registration lead to vote taxation?

Why on earth are you so gun-ho (see what I did there??) about your voter registration comparison?   Give me a constitutional amendment saying my guns wont be taxed, and maybe myself and others would open up to the idea of registration. Poll taxes are illegal, as I am sure you know.
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Kiwirob
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
There are already an estimated 275 million firearms in private hands in the US. How are you reliably going to account and register all of those firearms?

There are a similar number of motor vehicles in the US, how do they manage to register all of those, isn't it also illegial to drive an unregistered motorvehicle, don't you also have to register when you buy sell or trade your motorvehicle. If it can be done with cars there is no reason why it can't be done with guns.

It's not that difficult, if people don't register and get caught they pay a fine, simple, when a gun is sold it's registered, just like with a car, you can manage it with motor vehicles so you can manage it with guns, those that think it's difficult are just being pig headed.
 
mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:43 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 15):
Why on earth are you so gun-ho (see what I did there??

Nicely Done!! - Touche..

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 15):
about your voter registration comparison?

But seriously , its true. Generally speaking the anti-immigration, pro+voter registration folks that scream and shout on how everyone should have their paper and how everyone who votes should be registered and present ID; get their panties in a bunch when the same is applied to guns. I just don't get it.
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seb146
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:45 pm

The thing I don't understand is: The same people who do not want guns to be registered because that *MIGHT* (key word) be used for taxing or confiscating or rounding people up in the night, those are the same people who said about government data mining and Patriot Act "Well, if you are not doing anything wrong, the government in your e-mail is a good thing!"

They are okay with the government reading everyone's e-mails and listening to everyone's phone calls but how dare they try to find out who owns what guns!
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Stabilator
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
Again, we are told that if we register our guns, gun violence will go down. I can't understand how it could go down if the police don't use the tool to find the gun used in the crime.

Spot on, not to mention, if registration becomes mandatory, most deviants wont willingly walk in to the local police station and be alll "Here man, this gun is in my possession illegally".
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falstaff
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):
The NRA will keep knocking down any change in hopes the public gives up the fight

People like me will continue to send them money to keep on fighting

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Perhaps though this will lead to a greater ability to solve murder crimes which could result in a lower homicide rate and the inconvenience of being a suspect, or indeed, dying, will be reduced.

I doubt the street thugs in places like Detroit, with illegally imported or stolen guns, will be lining up to have their guns registered.

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 11):
I'll also leave this here, have a laugh:

Typical gun grabber, she doesn't even know how to handle a gun. You always treat a firearm like it is loaded.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
but the head of the Bundeskriminalamt (the approximate equivalent of the FBI in Germany, though with less powers) had stated that his department estimates that there are about 20 million illegal and unregistered guns around over here.

I have seen a couple of them. I was offered a couple of pistols in Germany back in 2011. I turned the guy down because I already owned one of them and getting them out of the country would have been too big of pain in the butt. Back in 2008 I saw a nice collection of unregistered firearms in the UK. Some of you might say "you should have turned those guys in because they were breaking the law". I think their governments were suppressing their God given right to own firearms free of government obstruction. I'm no snitch and ratting out law breakers is a good way to get hurt.
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Stabilator
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:51 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 17):

Because registering for voting is guaranteed not to be taxed, you nor any other person can guarantee the same without some sort of amendment.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):

FWIW, I think the Patriot Act is a load of crap  
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mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:54 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 21):
Because registering for voting is guaranteed not to be taxed, you nor any other person can guarantee the same without some sort of amendment.

Case for free IDs used for voting then?  

But in all seriousness, the link between registration and taxation is all tin foil talk; brought up by others - not me

[Edited 2013-03-06 08:00:39]
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Stabilator
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 22):
Case for free IDs used for voting then?

Voted "No" for the Voter ID amendment here in Minnesota  
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Stabilator
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 4:23 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 22):
the link between registration and taxation is all tin foil talk

Agree to disagree   We all have our concerns.
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surfpunk
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
People have been brainwashed into believing that registration is the first step towards confiscation and that they can only defend themselves from tyranny if they have their own private arsenals. It is neither a rational line of thought nor supported by facts, but nevertheless it exists.
Quoting aloges (Reply 1):

Problem with your hypothesis is, confiscation fears are not unfounded. Take California, for example:

CA Wants to Take Registered Guns
 
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Revelation
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
registration is the first step towards confiscation
Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
defend themselves from tyranny

Gun enthusiasts paranoid? Say it isn't so!

Quoting luv2fly (Reply 6):
IMHO no solution is going to be perfect, though that doesn't mean we stop trying.


Indeed, but by insisting on perfection the NRA can impede the process, so that's what they do. They also lobby to make sure BATF has a tiny budget, prevent meaningful gun safety studies, etc.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
What other reason would exist for a registration database, then? If I were a police commander and I had this tool at my disposal, the first question I would ask is "who has a firearm in that caliber in this area"?

Funny how we read that cops are smart enough to not enter a residence that says it has no firearms and treat it as if it has firearms, yet these same cops are not smart enough to realize that the criminal might not have registered their gun.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
The same people who do not want guns to be registered because that *MIGHT* (key word) be used for taxing or confiscating or rounding people up in the night, those are the same people who said about government data mining and Patriot Act "Well, if you are not doing anything wrong, the government in your e-mail is a good thing!"

Gun enthusiasts switch back and forth between being patriots and anarchists, depending on what argument they are trying to make at the time.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
God given right to own firearms free of government obstruction

Ahh, now we're down to "God wants me to have a gun!".

I'm not exactly sure how to square that with "Love each other as I have loved you", etc.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 4):
but the head of the Bundeskriminalamt (the approximate equivalent of the FBI in Germany, though with less powers) had stated that his department estimates that there are about 20 million illegal and unregistered guns around over here.

I have seen a couple of them. I was offered a couple of pistols in Germany back in 2011. I turned the guy down because I already owned one of them and getting them out of the country would have been too big of pain in the butt. Back in 2008 I saw a nice collection of unregistered firearms in the UK. Some of you might say "you should have turned those guys in because they were breaking the law". I think their governments were suppressing their God given right to own firearms free of government obstruction. I'm no snitch and ratting out law breakers is a good way to get hurt.

Most of these guns are staying simply hidden somewhere by the owner, who wants to keep them "just in case", but are never used. I knew a guy who bought an old farm. When he rebuilt the barn, he found a WW1 rifle and some ammunition hidden behind the wall paneling. It was neatly wrapped in oiled cloth, probably 50-70 years before by some German WW1 soldier, who returned home (remember we had civil war like riots between communists and rightwing militias back then) and decided that the rifle might come useful some day for hunting.
The new owner cleaned it, oiled it, wrapped it up and hid it again, "just in case".
I also mknew about a Dutch guy, who bought a house in Oosterbek, where the British paratroopers had their last stand in the failed attempt to capture the Arnhem bridges in 1944, and found an old submachine gun hidden in the attic, left there by some British paratrooper 60 years before. He hid it again, because if he would have handed it to the police, they would just have cut it up and scrapped it. For him it was a historic relict.

Jan
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L-188
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:27 pm

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romeobravo
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:46 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 9):
Or, it will lead to a police state where innocent people are presumed guilty simply because they own a gun.

That's a silly scare story. Just because police have more information doesn't mean they'll reverse the basic tenets of justice. And if they do it'll be because there is a flaw with the judicial system and not because of any registration law.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
I doubt the street thugs in places like Detroit, with illegally imported or stolen guns, will be lining up to have their guns registered.

I doubt it too, but many illegally acquired guns are gained from a legal owners selling it on and having a trace on that can't hurt.

There does seem to be a bit of a defeatist attitude. I'm not a big fan of legislation solving problems but the problem with murder is the victim doesn't get compensated.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 26):
yet these same cops are not smart enough to realize that the criminal might not have registered their gun.

Then why register guns? If the criminals aren't going to register their guns (and we know they won't), why should the law-abiding folks have to register their guns.

The pro-gun registration folks say registration will reduce crime. We know that is false. A lie. So why a registration database?
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bhill
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:39 pm

Because it is the "Well Regulated" part of the Amendment that is always glossed over. Insurance should be required as well...like your car, boat, motorcycle etc...you know, those items that have the potential to harm another citizen. Kinda odd that something NOT designed to wound or kill, your car, requires insurance; but a device that is does not....

Crazy country I live in.
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mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:40 pm

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 24):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 22):
the link between registration and taxation is all tin foil talk

Agree to disagree We all have our concerns.

Wait - Guns are already Taxed no? If i buy a gun do i pay tax on it? Taxes on bullets?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 30):
The pro-gun registration folks say registration will reduce crime. We know that is false. A lie. So why a registration database?

How do you know this? Is there any place in the world that has unregistered guns that have a lower crime rate than the US?

Since pro-gun folks love to point to Switzerland as an example of gun rights, are guns in Switzerland registered?

It may have been a lie - but my Swiss buddy told me that bullets are marked and they can be traced to the person that owns them. - is that true? can anyone confirm?
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fr8mech
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 32):
Wait - Guns are already Taxed no? If i buy a gun do i pay tax on it? Taxes on bullets?

There are proposals out there to tax gun annually as additional property to pay for gun violence.


Quoting mt99 (Reply 32):
How do you know this?

It is a lie because there are over 250,000,000 firearms in non-state hands. Unfortunately, not all those guns are in the hands of those that can legally own them...we tend to call those folks: felons. There not all felons...there are other reasons you can be denied a firearm, though they all would be considered felons if caught, tried and convicted of having a firearm when they are not legally entitled to owning a firearm.

But, I think its rather safe to say that if only those who legally own firearms register them, the crime rate will not go down because the criminals i.e. those that use guns in a crime, will not register their guns.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:59 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
There are proposals out there to tax gun annually as additional property to pay for gun violence.

NO need to tax for annual gun ownership. Just tax bullets.. Its the same thing for all practical purposes...
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Mir
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:05 pm

Quoting dl021 (Reply 12):
another point against the federal registration of firerams. The majority of crimes ares committed using illegally owned firearms. There are already an estimated 275 million firearms in private hands in the US. How are you reliably going to account and register all of those firearms?

You won't, at least not right away. But over time (a long time) the proportion of registered guns will increase. But that process doesn't start until you start requiring registration.

Also, I'd argue that the fact that there will inevitably be unregistered firearms out there is a poor reason to not make registration a requirement.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 20):
I doubt the street thugs in places like Detroit, with illegally imported or stolen guns, will be lining up to have their guns registered.

They probably won't. But if they should get stopped for some reason and found with the guns, then there will be an extra possibility to prosecute them and get them off the streets, perhaps before they use those guns in a crime.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
What other reason would exist for a registration database, then?

Simple: you recover a gun with serial number X at a crime scene. Using the database, you can find out who was supposed to be owning that gun, and you can go to them and start asking questions about where they were at the time of the shooting, and if they weren't involved why their gun was involved. And then if it turns out that they've been illegally selling guns to people, they can be held accountable.

-Mir
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JAGflyer
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:15 pm

Americans have a very convaluted sense of privacy. To them it seems that asking or knowing what brand of toothpaste they use is considered an invasion of the personal privacy. By telling the government they own a firearm they feel that it would be exposing them as people to "keep an eye on" so to speak. I'm sure a lot of the gun owners in some of the more southern states are your "off the grid" types who don't want to leave any tracks or have any trail due to previous things from their past.

I've always believed, the ones who have something to hide will complain about privacy but those who don't have no reason to squack. If you are a legitimate and honest person you should have nothing to hide from the government, including whether or not you own firearms.
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Maverick623
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 1):
People have been brainwashed into believing that registration is the first step towards confiscation

Tell that to the people of California, who had one of their Reps introduce a bill that would require all people with certain registered weapons to turn them in.
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fr8mech
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 34):
NO need to tax for annual gun ownership. Just tax bullets.. Its the same thing for all practical purposes...

I already pay a sales tax on my ammunition. Any other tax would be considered an excise tax. Now, if that tax became so burdensome as to prevent the average person from buying ammunition, I believe that it would be unconstitutional.

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 36):
I've always believed, the ones who have something to hide will complain about privacy but those who don't have no reason to squack. If you are a legitimate and honest person you should have nothing to hide from the government, including whether or not you own firearms.

So, you would not have a problem with the police executing a "stop and frisk" on you for no reason? How about a casual search of your home? Your car? Your background? Bank accounts? Financial statements and employment history? I mean, you have nothing to hide, right? No harm there. Let them do what they will?

The government does not have a compelling reason to ask law-abiding gun owners to register their firearms.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
surfpunk
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 8:56 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
Tell that to the people of California, who had one of their Reps introduce a bill that would require all people with certain registered weapons to turn them in.

Yes. Which I linked in reply 25.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:08 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
Simple: you recover a gun with serial number X at a crime scene. Using the database, you can find out who was supposed to be owning that gun, and you can go to them and start asking questions about where they were at the time of the shooting, and if they weren't involved why their gun was involved. And then if it turns out that they've been illegally selling guns to people, they can be held accountable.

You can do the same thing with universal background checks and a court order. I mean, that's the goal isn't it? Finding the last legal owner of the gun, right?
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
surfpunk
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:11 pm

Quoting bhill (Reply 31):

Because it is the "Well Regulated" part of the Amendment that is always glossed over. Insurance should be required as well...like your car, boat, motorcycle etc...you know, those items that have the potential to harm another citizen. Kinda odd that something NOT designed to wound or kill, your car, requires insurance; but a device that is does not....

Crazy country I live in.

Problem is, the "militia" clause is the prefatory, not operative clause of the Second Amendment. The Supreme Court affirmed this as such in the Heller decision:

Quoting Supreme Court DC v. Heller:
(a) The Amendment’s prefatory clause announces a purpose, but does not limit or expand the scope of the second part, the operative clause. The operative clause’s text and history demonstrate that it connotes an individual right to keep and bear arms. Pp. 2–22.
 
soon7x7
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:13 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 7):
Well.. How do you feel about Voter Registration

That is a rhetorical question...In this case apples and oranges...both are fruit.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Perhaps though this will lead to a greater ability to solve murder crimes which could result in a lower homicide rate and the inconvenience of being a suspect, or indeed, dying, will be reduced.

I would agree with your point and I understand the logic of it however the US government is on a power grab tsunami kick these days. If I felt the intentions of this government were sincere, then I feel what you say would hold water but currently, such is not the case.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 10):
Wow you guys both wearing tinfoil hats, do you think this ever happens in other countries where guns are registered? good grief, register your guns it's pretty simple, you register yours cars, you register where you live, what's the big deal registering your guns, most other countries manage it without any problems.

Most other countries don't abide by our Constitution. We have a different way of life here and Americans don't much appreciate being told what size soda cup we can have, how much salt to put on our food, stripping us of our rights to protect our own families and property. My guess is your country has its own crime levels, murder rates, prisons, black market for guns sales. The holier than thow from down under doesn't work. Every country has issues. The right to the many freedoms our constitution guarantees to its legal citizens is protected by the Constitution as the method of regulating freedom can quickly get out of hand by power grabbers. That is our current situation we are finding ourselves in today.
 
mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:18 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 38):
So, you would not have a problem with the police executing a "stop and frisk" on you for no reason? How about a casual search of your home? Your car? Your background? Bank accounts? Financial statements and employment history? I mean, you have nothing to hide, right? No harm there. Let them do what they will?

Should be fine.. you should be asked for proof of citizenship too. If you have a problem on why ask Jan Brewer in AZ. if you cant as Sheriiff Joe Arpaio.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 38):
Now, if that tax became so burdensome as to prevent the average person from buying ammunition, I believe that it would be unconstitutional.

Define "burdensome"?
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kachum
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:23 pm

Quoting JAGflyer (Reply 36):
I've always believed, the ones who have something to hide will complain about privacy but those who don't have no reason to squack. If you are a legitimate and honest person you should have nothing to hide from the government, including whether or not you own firearms.

And following this logic, Belarus fingerprinted all their male adult population. I take it you would be gladly fingerprinted by Harper's government? You are an honest person with nothing to hide, right?

[Edited 2013-03-06 13:24:36]
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:28 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
What other reason would exist for a registration database, then? If I were a police commander and I had this tool at my disposal, the first question I would ask is "who has a firearm in that caliber in this area"?

Why do you register your motorvehicle, for what reason, surlely is it any different from some one doing a hit and run, whitneses say it was a red car so the cops round up all people in the area who own red cars, not likely is it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
Do you know that it doesn't? Are you privy to the police investigations of every shooting?

I've had this discussion with some police friends, one who is a CID officer, it's just not practicle, even in NZ where there are significantly less guns, police do not chase up everyone who lives in a certain area who has a certain calibre firearm, because you could be looking at hundreds of people, in the US it would probably be much higher, talk about a needle in a haystack.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:39 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 43):
Should be fine

So, you're fine giving up your Fourth Amendment rights because "you have nothing to hide"?

Hey, nice try at deflection, by the way.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 43):
Define "burdensome"?

1.oppressively heavy; onerous.
2.distressing; troublesome. .
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 9:48 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 46):

So, you're fine giving up your Fourth Amendment rights because "you have nothing to hide"?

Absolutely - True Patriots like Jan Brewer, Joe Arpaio and several others on this forum think its a great idea. Don't you?

I just join them on their worthy cause.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 46):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 43):
Define "burdensome"?

1.oppressively heavy; onerous.
2.distressing; troublesome. .

Cute - but my mistake for not being specific. Tell me as a percentage - what would a burdensome tax on bullets be? 50%? 2% 75%?

[Edited 2013-03-06 13:49:12]
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fr8mech
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:16 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 47):
Cute - but my mistake for not being specific. Tell me as a percentage - what would a burdensome tax on bullets be? 50%? 2% 75%?

That would be for a court to decide, wouldn't it? I could probably afford, say a 20 or 30% tax without too much of a problem. But, what about a co-ed who wants to buy a gun? What about that poor soul living paycheck to paycheck that wants to buy a gun? The single mother, living on welfare? Should these people not have a right to defend themselves?

Let me tell you what a small tax would do...it would mean less range time. Less practice and lower proficiency for those who own guns. Hmm, I thought one of the big issues on a-net was that gun-owners don't have enough training.

What about a medium level tax? I would go out and buy a rig and start reloading my own ammo. My usage is right on the edge of making that a sound economic decision right now.

A high, cumbersome, oppressive, onerous tax? Well, until it's found unconstitutional, it would cause ammunition sales to go on the blackmarket and more people would die. And more law enforcement resources would be wasted on "the war on bullets".
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
mt99
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RE: Gun Registration: Why Such A Huge Objection?

Wed Mar 06, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 48):
small tax would do..
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 48):
medium level tax?
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 48):
A high, cumbersome, oppressive, onerous tax

Right - so should guns be exempt any tax - including sales tax?
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