AlnessW
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The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:24 am

Some of you might remember this thread from a little while back:

18 To Play Lottery, But 21 To Play Slots? (by AlnessW Sep 22 2012 in Non Aviation)

And yes, therefore you might say I am "at it again" with a similar topic...

The drinking age in the US should be lowered.

21 years old? Come on! At 16 you can drive. At 18 you can sign a contract, get a credit card, buy cigarettes/tobacco, play lotto, buy hazardous products, and many more things. For God's sake, at 18 you can go to war and fight for your own country. (See more on this below.) But you can't have a drink.

I've always had a problem with the idea that people "magically" become mature at 21. If the state you live in thinks you're mature enough to operate a 4,000 pound killing machine (aka, "a car"), then you should be mature enough to drink.

You're an adult at 18. You should be allowed to drink at 18.

A drinking age as high as 21 only creates problems. People under 21 are just going to obtain it and drink, regardless of what the law states. It makes for potentially dangerous situations with people throwing "house parties," or drinking in private places where they can't be seen. Wouldn't it be safer if they were allowed to out to a bar or restaurant and drink there?

Another option would be to, for example, raise the driving age to 18 and lower the drinking age to 16. The idea here is that this would, hypothetically speaking, allow people to get the "binge drinking" and irresponsible behavior out of their system BEFORE going behind the wheel.

Lastly, I would like to share a video with you all:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0SlVmytGHA

For the of you who aren't familiar with the TV show "What Would You Do?," essentially what they do is stage various situations such as shoplifting, racial profiling, abuse, or in this case "underage" drinking using actors in a public place. Then they hide cameras and see how people respond, and finally interview them at the very end. Very interesting show, I'd highly recommend it.

In this episode, 2 actors play young American soldiers who want to go out for a drink after recently returning from service. When they sit down at the bar, the bartender (also an actor) wants to see their ID. This where the trouble begins.

You'll see how various people respond to this situation, but the man at 5:10 really stood out to me the most by offering to buy them a drink, pointing to their uniforms when the bartender asks for ID, getting more and more pissed with the bartender when he refuses to serve them, and eventually going as far as to take them to another bar where he knows they'll be served.

Other people offer advice on different bars to go to, as well. This is a perfect example of how "following the law," and "doing the right thing" are 2 very different matters.

(Note: If it makes a difference to you, the actors that played the soldiers WERE actually over 21.)

I will step down now!
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:29 am

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
21 years old? Come on! At 16 you can drive. At 18 you can sign a contract, get a credit card, buy cigarettes/tobacco, play lotto, buy hazardous products, and many more things. For God's sake, at 18 you can go to war and fight for your own country. (See more on this below.) But you can't have a drink.

I've always had a problem with the idea that people "magically" become mature at 21. If the state you live in thinks you're mature enough to operate a 4,000 pound killing machine (aka, "a car"), then you should be mature enough to drink.

You're an adult at 18. You should be allowed to drink at 18.

As a rule, I think that the European model - where you can drink a couple of years before you can drive, is a good one. That eliminates binge drinking early, and teaches you what it's like to be drunk (and what a hangover is like) before you get near a wheel.

That means I believe in reducing the drinking age to 14 in the US - at least for beer and wine.
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smittyone
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 2:05 am

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
21 years old? Come on! At 16 you can drive. At 18 you can sign a contract, get a credit card, buy cigarettes/tobacco, play lotto, buy hazardous products, and many more things. For God's sake, at 18 you can go to war and fight for your own country. (See more on this below.) But you can't have a drink.

By age 18 humans might be as tall as they're ever going to be, but nearly all of them are still children. A better idea might be to raise the age of some of those other things to 21.

Looking back at that time in my life from age 41, I wonder what the hell was the hurry.
 
ltbewr
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:08 am

From the end of Federal alcohol prohibition in the USA from 1933, states could decide on their drinking age (if they allowed drinking, some states continued prohibition until as late as the late 1950's) But not less than 18. The US Military usually had a minimal age on USA bases of 18. Most states chose 21, the minimum age to vote and 'adult' status for contracts while others (including NY State) had an age 18 minimum. With the lowering of the Federal voting age to 18 by Constitutional Amendment in 1970, in part due as that one could serve in the Military and get killed at age 18, and a draft registration age of 18. By 1973, a number of state with a 21 minimum lowered it to 18. Some states, most notably California and Nevada, kept it at 21, some states like Oklahoma had a weird deal of males at 21 and 18 for women. Since the 1930's and before, adjacent Mexico and Canada had 18 or 19 age drinking laws, but always had much stricter drunk driving levels .

In the early 1980's the numbers of those under 21 or even under 18 being killed or injured by drunk driving crashes was skyrocketing, as many of that age range unlike the Europe and elsewhere had access or owned cars. Too many bars and stores were tired of the hassles and very expensive liability problems from 18-20 year old drinkers and worse, too many under 18 getting into bars and clubs. Many 18's are also in their Senior year of High School, with problems at Proms and other school events, in some places kids with hangovers and starting to have problems with excessive drinking.

Groups like MADD got started over the terrible rate of death of their teen children. That led to a tied Federal law of where all states had to raise the drinking age to not less than 21 in a few years or lose some Federal highway funds. That policy also led to lowering the thresholds of DWI from .10 to .08 %. Many states also put in laws where those under 21 caught drunk driving or even possessing alcohol can lose their license for at least 1 year and/or they turned 21.

Given the history of the last 40 years, I don't think many want to go back to the drinking age of 18 in all or most states. I do think the penalties for drinking if 18 to 20 years old should only be a minor penalty to themselves, although strict (or even stricter) for any age drunk driving.
 
Maverick623
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:17 am

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
Wouldn't it be safer if they were allowed to out to a bar or restaurant and drink there?

Not only no, but HELL no. You can always crash out at a friend's house... you can't sleep at the bar.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
That eliminates binge drinking early

The UK would disagree with you.

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 2):
By age 18 humans might be as tall as they're ever going to be, but nearly all of them are still children.

Only because our society treats them like children. It's amazing (and infuriating) seeing people complain how others won't take care of someone's precious little 25-year old kid that they have sent out alone.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
From the end of Federal alcohol prohibition in the USA from 1933, states could decide on their drinking age

They still can. As you said, the only thing stopping them is the highway funds.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
Military usually had a minimal age on USA bases of 18.

That's left up to each installation commander. Most officially use 21, but I've never heard of anyone younger than that getting busted, so long as they didn't cause a ruckus.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
seb146
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:38 am

The only problem I see with lowering the age to 18 is this could increase drinking in high schools. I think we should lower drinking age, but to 19 instead. I also think the states that allow marijuana sales should lower those ages to 19.
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Braniff747SP
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:48 am

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered 

Not if you want to keep federal highway dollars.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 5):
drinking in high schools.

That already happens anyway. Those who want to drink will do so. It may make it easier for them to access liquor, but that's not a big stone in the path as it is today.
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Boeing717200
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:08 am

My kids can have a lowered drinking age about as soon as they get kicked off my medical insurance at the government mandated age of 26. Come to think of it, if kids need their parents for medical insurance until they are 26 then maybe they shouldn't be able to drink or vote until they show they are responsible enough to pay their own way.
 
Maverick623
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:14 am

Quoting boeing717200 (Reply 7):
My kids can have a lowered drinking age about as soon as they get kicked off my medical insurance at the government mandated age of 26.

You can kick your kids off of your insurance whenever you want.

Thanks for the off-topic rant, though.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Superfly
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:16 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
As a rule, I think that the European model - where you can drink a couple of years before you can drive, is a good one. That eliminates binge drinking early, and teaches you what it's like to be drunk (and what a hangover is like) before you get near a wheel.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
That means I believe in reducing the drinking age to 14 in the US - at least for beer and wine.

  
Agreed! I started drinking when I was 14 and look at how I turned out.  
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):
You can kick your kids off of your insurance whenever you want.

Ted Turner did that.
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ozglobal
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 8:56 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
As a rule, I think that the European model - where you can drink a couple of years before you can drive, is a good one. That eliminates binge drinking early, and teaches you what it's like to be drunk (and what a hangover is like) before you get near a wheel.

Yes, but the "European model' is not just about drinking age, but about drinking culture. Nor is it homogeneous. The Mediterranean and central European states have alcohol as an integral part of their family cuisine culture, not as some forbidden fruit, kept apart from daily life. The northern states and the UK, treat alcohol more like a 'dirty secret'. Something inherently 'naughty'. Think British binge drinking on Fri / Sat and frowning on your glass of wine on a Tuesday night, or Finnish booze cruises on the Baltic where you down as much affordable liquor as you can get your hands on and end up blind.

So I agree with you that model is better in many European countries (I think you lived in CH), but that model is about a culture's relationship with alcohol, of which the drinking age is only one part. The US drinking culture seems to share a lot in common with that of the UK and Northern Europe: More Viking than Mediterranean...

[Edited 2013-03-16 01:59:19]
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romeobravo
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:48 am

This is the law in England/Wales and i think that's the best way to go about it....

Children under 5 must not be given alcohol unless under medical supervision or in an emergency (Children and Young Persons Act 1933, Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937).
Between the ages of 5 and 17, it is legally permissible for children to drink alcohol at home or at a friend's house with the permission of a parent or legal guardian.
The minimum age for the purchase of alcohol is 18. People aged 16 or 17 may consume wine, beer or cider on licensed premises when ordered with a meal


Unfortunately there is still a binge drinking problem here. I'm going to blame the dystopian weather.
 
smittyone
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:46 am

In the majority of US states, it is perfectly legal for kids to drink alcohol in their homes under their parents' supervision. So in those states, if families want to give their kids a 'supervised' intro to alcohol they can do that.
 
fr8mech
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:14 pm

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
Other people offer advice on different bars to go to, as well. This is a perfect example of how "following the law," and "doing the right thing" are 2 very different matters.


Hold on there. While I agree that the drinking age may be too high and we could look at lowering it, I think you make a statement here that's flat out wrong.

The difference between "doing the right thing" and "following the law" is a moral argument. To provide an extreme example to support my point: harboring a slave in 1860 was illegal, but it was still the right thing to do.

There is no moral argument for allowing someone under 21 to drink, even in uniform. There is a logical argument, but not a moral one.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
That already happens anyway.


So, what other rules and regulations should we scrap because "it's being done already"?

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 10):
The Mediterranean and central European states have alcohol as an integral part of their family cuisine culture, not as some forbidden fruit, kept apart from daily life.


I think I had my first taste of beer at about 8 or 9, wine soon followed. The stuff was always available, in small quantities at meal time. My parents, uncles and aunts provided more than adequate oversight for the younglings when alcohol was about.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 10):
The US drinking culture seems to share a lot in common with that of the UK and Northern Europe: More Viking than Mediterranean...


That's an astute observation. In the US, alcohol is to be used only in controlled environments (bar, restaurant, home, etc.) You can't have an open container in public. Except in certain areas, public drinking is illegal. In some states, only certain stores can sell it. In others, only beer can be sold at the grocery and "the hard stuff", wine included, has to be bought at the liquor store. In some counties, alcohol sales are not allowed. We have decided that you not only have to be an adult to purchase, sell or drink it, but you have to have been an adult for 3 years. Throw in there that some religions ban the stuff as the surest road to Hell, while others embrace it as part of ritual. It's really not that hard to understand why alcohol has become the forbidden fruit and is actively sought out by those that are forbidden its use.

Alcohol held no mystery to my siblings and me by the time we were 14.

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
I've always had a problem with the idea that people "magically" become mature at 21. If the state you live in thinks you're mature enough to operate a 4,000 pound killing machine (aka, "a car"), then you should be mature enough to drink.


I have a problem that people are magically adults at 18. There should be a sliding scale based on past performance.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
Only because our society treats them like children.


A big old    there.

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 12):
In the majority of US states, it is perfectly legal for kids to drink alcohol in their homes under their parents' supervision. So in those states, if families want to give their kids a 'supervised' intro to alcohol they can do that.

I believe that's incorrect. Can you provide an example of that?

[Edited 2013-03-16 05:17:17]

[Edited 2013-03-16 05:17:37]
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smittyone
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:30 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
I believe that's incorrect. Can you provide an example of that?

This site has some really specific info:

http://drinkingage.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=002591


I remember being blown away when I attended some kind of training being given by a police officer (I forget which state I was in, probably Wisconsin) and he said it was perfectly legal to serve your kids alcohol at home.

[Edited 2013-03-16 06:36:37]
 
Boeing717200
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 8):

It's not off topic. Kids want their cake and eat it too. They can have when they are old enough to get out on their own. I'm sick of this whinney generation that wants to live at home, vote and drink but doesn't have half an ounce of responsibility in their bodies to show they've earn that right.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:57 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
So, what other rules and regulations should we scrap because "it's being done already"?

I'm not saying we should scrap anything---I'm all for keeping the drinking age where it is.

I'm just saying that changing it one way or another won't matter.
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
You'll see how various people respond to this situation, but the man at 5:10 really stood out to me the most by offering to buy them a drink, pointing to their uniforms when the bartender asks for ID, getting more and more pissed with the bartender when he refuses to serve them, and eventually going as far as to take them to another bar where he knows they'll be served.

I don't believe the bartender would want to take a chance on losing his job if he DID serve someone under 21. Whether or not it's the "right thing to do" or not, you can hardly blame him, but the whole tone of this paragraph makes the bartender look like the bad guy in this. The REAL bad guys are the guy that wants to buy them a drink AND the bartender that he refers to that WILL serve them, no matter their age.
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seb146
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 12):
In the majority of US states, it is perfectly legal for kids to drink alcohol in their homes under their parents' supervision.

I think they should look into Oregon and Washington. There have been many, many cases where minors were given alcohol in their homes by their parents and the parents were arrested. It has been said by many that it is legal, but I don't think it is in those two states.

I am surprised Utah allows under age drinking for medical and religous reasons. Although, the amount of wine used in Catholic services is so small, from what I hear, it makes no difference.
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flymia
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:20 pm

18 is too low. Too many 18 year olds in high school. Yes there is already drinking in high school I understand that but this would be it 10000% times easier for high schoolers to get alcohol.
I'm pretty much ok with 19. 20 might be more reasonable. But 21 is a bit too high. I will say I defiently drank alcohol more when I was under 21 than now being over 21. It has more to do with the situation I was in, being younger in college or studying abroad.

Another thing to keep on mind is the adverse affects of alcohol on the human brain. The brain is certainly still developing at 18 years old.
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mham001
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:27 pm

Nutz. If anything, it needs to be raised. The statistics that count (innocent dead at the hands of drunks) rise dramatically as the age of the drunk declines. There is no getting around it. Emotional pleadings and spin will not change the FACT that the younger the drunk, the more likely they are to kill or maim an innocent. At huge costs to society.

Now tell me again why we should encourage more drunks?
 
fr8mech
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
There have been many, many cases where minors were given alcohol in their homes by their parents and the parents were arrested.


I suspect that even if it is legal to provide alcohol to a minor (within the confines of the home by the guardian) that a case could be made for endangering the welfare of a child. Of course, that would depend on the age of the child and the quantity of alcohol.

It would be interesting to see if any cases of that sort were brought forward.
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Maverick623
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:35 pm

Quoting boeing717200 (Reply 15):
It's not off topic. Kids want their cake and eat it too. They can have when they are old enough to get out on their own. I'm sick of this whinney generation that wants to live at home, vote and drink but doesn't have half an ounce of responsibility in their bodies to show they've earn that right.

Blah, blah, blah. Our generation was the best, these kids suck at life. You're a little young to be saying that, aren't you?

FWIW, not a single one of my friends, family, or acquaintances who are over 18 live rent-free at their parents' house.

Also, rights are guaranteed, not earned. Otherwise call it a privilege.

Quoting flymia (Reply 19):

Another thing to keep on mind is the adverse affects of alcohol on the human brain. The brain is certainly still developing at 18 years old.

Your brain is always developing.

Even still, there is little difference between killing cells and connections that were there already and preventing them from forming.
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AlnessW
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:42 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):

All good ideas, indeed.

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 2):
Looking back at that time in my life from age 41, I wonder what the hell was the hurry.

What's this mean?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
You can always crash out at a friend's house... you can't sleep at the bar.

Then call a cab.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
They still can. As you said, the only thing stopping them is the highway funds.
Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
Not if you want to keep federal highway dollars.

I find this plenty frustrating. It's a sneaky way for the government to control state laws. They say, "Sure, no problem, you can choose your own age, but if it's not the one WE chose, you can't have your highway funds. Sorry!" Total BS.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 6):
That already happens anyway. Those who want to drink will do so.

Exactly. See my post below:

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
A drinking age as high as 21 only creates problems. People under 21 are just going to obtain it and drink, regardless of what the law states.

----

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 11):
This is the law in England/Wales and i think that's the best way to go about it....

I think that's a great way to go about it!

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
There is no moral argument for allowing someone under 21 to drink, even in uniform. There is a logical argument, but not a moral one.

What do you mean by that, exactly?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
I have a problem that people are magically adults at 18. There should be a sliding scale based on past performance.

Sure, that would be a valid approach.

Quoting mayor (Reply 17):
I don't believe the bartender would want to take a chance on losing his job if he DID serve someone under 21.

Right, that's why EVERY business is so paranoid about this matter.

Quoting mayor (Reply 17):
The REAL bad guys are the guy that wants to buy them a drink AND the bartender that he refers to that WILL serve them, no matter their age.

Wait... What?? You're saying that these people are evil for serving someone who obviously deserves it?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 18):
I think they should look into Oregon and Washington. There have been many, many cases where minors were given alcohol in their homes by their parents and the parents were arrested. It has been said by many that it is legal, but I don't think it is in those two states.

I would be curious to know this, as well.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):

I'm sorry, but I think you're missing the whole point of this thread.
 
Maverick623
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:53 pm

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
Then call a cab.

Because that works out sooo well today.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
I find this plenty frustrating. It's a sneaky way for the government to control state laws. They say, "Sure, no problem, you can choose your own age, but if it's not the one WE chose, you can't have your highway funds. Sorry!" Total BS.

The US Federal Government is under no legal obligation to provide highway funds to the states.

Although I would love to see a state call their bluff. The whole purpose of the Interstate Highway System is to facilitate interstate commerce, which is a concern of the Feds. No funds = no more Interstates = less commerce. Imagine if Texas or California stepped up to the plate...
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Boeing717200
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:55 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 22):

We'll see how you feel about this when you have a couple of teenagers.
 
rfields5421
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:09 pm

Much of the US lowered the drinking age to 18 once.

It was a disaster, and because of massive public pressure it was raised to 21.

I see nothing in the maturity of young people today to make me believe that changing the drinking age to 18 would be any different than last time.
 
fr8mech
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
It's a sneaky way for the government to control state laws.


Actually, it's pretty much above board and I believe we should do more of it, even down to the individual level. If you take government (tax) money, you should abide by the rules established.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
What do you mean by that, exactly?


I mean that you can make a logical argument for lowering the drinking age. As you are trying to do. But, I can see no moral reason for someone to break the law by providing drink to a uniformed minor. Why is providing a drink to a uniformed minor "doing the right thing" when it is clearly against the law. Your implication is that the law is immoral and should be ignored. Defend that.
*Note: the definition of "uniformed minor" in this discussion is a serving member of the military between the ages of 18 and 20, inclusive.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
Wait... What?? You're saying that these people are evil for serving someone who obviously deserves it?


Again, why do they obviously deserve it?

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
I have a problem that people are magically adults at 18. There should be a sliding scale based on past performance.

Sure, that would be a valid approach


Yet, you think that reaching the age of 18 and putting on a military uniform magically confers the ability to make sound decisions concerning alcohol.

Again, I'm not against visiting the topic, but a think it's a poor excuse to lower the age because someone is serving in the military. Let's look at the data and decide whether or not raising the drinking age did what it was supposed to do.

Changing the culture in the US as it concerns alcohol (see posts 10 & 13) would be a long road and would have to be done before a lower drinking age would be accepted.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
What's this mean?


He means, he doesn't understand at this later age, why he was in such a hurry to get older.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
vikkyvik
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 4):
You can always crash out at a friend's house... you can't sleep at the bar.

Then call a cab.

Then have to get a ride back to the bar to pick up your car? Or have it towed overnight? Many would just choose to take the risk and drive home drunk.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
What do you mean by that, exactly?

He means, how can you say it's morally correct to try your damndest to get a couple under-21 people served at a bar? You're putting the bar, bartender, and the customers at risk.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
Quoting mayor (Reply 17):
The REAL bad guys are the guy that wants to buy them a drink AND the bartender that he refers to that WILL serve them, no matter their age.

Wait... What?? You're saying that these people are evil for serving someone who obviously deserves it?

No one DESERVES a drink. No one needs to have one.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 20):

I'm sorry, but I think you're missing the whole point of this thread.

Um, what? He responded to exactly the point of this thread. I may not agree with him, but how is his post not directly relevant?
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Maverick623
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:43 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 25):

We'll see how you feel about this when you have a couple of teenagers.

The older generation always has, and always will, decry the younger generation as lazy, rude, inconsiderate, blah blah blah.

If you want someone to blame, look no further than the people raising these kids and running the show: your generation.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
If you take government (tax) money, you should abide by the rules established.

LOL. And pray tell, where do you think that tax money comes from? Trees?

The government will spend our tax dollars as we (via elected representatives) see fit.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):

Yet, you think that reaching the age of 18 and putting on a military uniform magically confers the ability to make sound decisions concerning alcohol.

I don't think it "magically" confers any ability. It confers ability via the increased training and responsibility relative to other occupations.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Boeing717200
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:02 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):

My kids aren't a bunch of snarky 20 something's. They are well behaved teenagers who know their place. They also know when to keep their mounths shut and accept some criticism.
 
ozglobal
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:16 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 10):
The US drinking culture seems to share a lot in common with that of the UK and Northern Europe: More Viking than Mediterranean...


That's an astute observation.

An Australian lady I know visited Paris way back in the 70s after having spent her obligatory couple of months in London. She was speaking as a young woman to a middle age frenchman acquaintance who asked her about her impressions of Paris. After making many points she shared a final observation: "After having spent a couple of months in the pubs of London and now being here in Paris, and knowing how the French are supposed to love their wine, do you know I don't think I've seen a SINGLE person in the street drunk." The frenchman retorted, "Are yes, but have you seen ANYONE, ENTIRELY sober....?"

Says it all...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
Ken777
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:35 am

Quoting AlnessW (Thread starter):
You're an adult at 18. You should be allowed to drink at 18.

At 18 you're still a teenager. Your attitudes and level of responsibility will continue to mature at a rapid pace.

Personally I believe that parents should decide if their son or daughter can have a drink, or glass of wine now and then. Let them develop a level of understanding on drinking - especially in the area of moderation.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 1):
As a rule, I think that the European model - where you can drink a couple of years before you can drive, is a good one.

Not a bad idea either.

Maybe what we need to address if the combination of drinking and driving in the late teen years. Cut the legal limit for booze levels in half for this age group and come down hard on those that break the rules.

And we need to understand that the objective is not to be mean to teenagers, but to keep them alive and somewhat safe until they get into their 20's.
 
seb146
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:11 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 24):
The whole purpose of the Interstate Highway System is to facilitate interstate commerce, which is a concern of the Feds. No funds = no more Interstates = less commerce. Imagine if Texas or California stepped up to the plate...

Remember when the big thing was states deciding their own speed limits on interstate freeways?
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
einsteinboricua
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:51 am

I think it should be lowered. I don't get why the US's limit is set at 21. In PR you can drink once you turn 18 (no exceptions for underage drinking however, unless you're 16-17 and your parents give you a beer or wine inside your house. Not legal but tolerated to a certain extent).

I think the idea of not lowering it to 18 "because many more accidents can happen, etc." is utter nonsense. I have never liked alcohol, rarely drink it, and never had a problem when I do. Many exercise self restraint and I don't think that just because a handful don't do so, everyone else has to pay the price.
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AlnessW
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:39 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 26):
Much of the US lowered the drinking age to 18 once.

It was a disaster, and because of massive public pressure it was raised to 21.

Interesting to know.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
I mean that you can make a logical argument for lowering the drinking age. As you are trying to do.

Indeed, I am trying to make a logical and valid argument here, and I apologize if I am not.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
But, I can see no moral reason for someone to break the law by providing drink to a uniformed minor. Why is providing a drink to a uniformed minor "doing the right thing" when it is clearly against the law. Your implication is that the law is immoral and should be ignored. Defend that.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
why do they obviously deserve it?

I though most people's reactions in the video were pretty obvious. They said "if you're allowed to go to war, fight for your country, or get shot at, then you should be allowed to have a drink" and I agree with them.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
Yet, you think that reaching the age of 18 and putting on a military uniform magically confers the ability to make sound decisions concerning alcohol.

See this post below:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
I don't think it "magically" confers any ability. It confers ability via the increased training and responsibility relative to other occupations.

  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
He means, he doesn't understand at this later age, why he was in such a hurry to get older.

Well then that sounds like a personal problem to me.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 27):
I'm not against visiting the topic, but a think it's a poor excuse to lower the age because someone is serving in the military.

Of that's not the ONLY reason to lower the drinking age!

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 28):
Then have to get a ride back to the bar to pick up your car? Or have it towed overnight? Many would just choose to take the risk and drive home drunk.

Which is worse, picking up your car later, or getting a DUI?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 28):
He responded to exactly the point of this thread. I may not agree with him, but how is his post not directly relevant?

Because the objective of this thread is to provide an argument that the drinking age should be lowered, NOT kept the same or raised.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 32):
At 18 you're still a teenager.

I know many who would disagree with you.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 34):
I think it should be lowered. I don't get why the US's limit is set at 21.

Glad I finally found someone who agrees with me.  
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 34):
I think the idea of not lowering it to 18 "because many more accidents can happen, etc." is utter nonsense.

I agree with you there, as well.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 34):
I don't think that just because a handful don't do so, everyone else has to pay the price.

   There are few things I hate more than when "one person has to ruin it for everyone."
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 9:34 am

Whatever the age the law sets it's still up to parents to show their children responsibility when it comes to things in life including alcohol. When I was about 16 I asked my father what drinking was like and he let me have a drink, I saw from there that getting wasted wasn't for me. I didn't even like the taste. Up until now I never binge drink and rarely have more than a beer or 2 when out with friends. The law doesn't make people responsible it just holds them accountable. The responsibility of drinking and it's effects would come from the parents.
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melpax
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:34 am

Here in Oz, you can buy a drink & get your licence as soon as you turn 18, but drink-driving is heavily enforced here. Also, nearly all drivers under 21 must drive with a zero BAC limit. The police set up road blocks with 'booze buses' breat-testing all drivers passing through. On Thursday to Saturday nights, they usually like to set these up on the main freeways heading out of Melbourne, so most folks will take the train or a cab home if they're having a few drinks. All police cars also carry breathalysers as part of their standard kit - if you're stopped while driving for any reason, the officer must also require you to submit to a breat test. The legal limit here for those with a 'full' licence is .05, so any more than a couple of drinks will put most people over the limit. If you're driving a heavy vehicle the limit is zero.

My home state, Victoria, has a graduated licence system, this is also the case in most states here.

You can obtain a learner's permit at 16 - this allows you to drive under supervision with a 'full' licence holder. The legal BAC limit is zero, and the supervising licence holder must also blow under their limit (.05). 'L' plates must also be displayed on the front & back of the car being driven.

At 18, you can obtain a P1 licence. The BAC limit remains at zero. Other restrictions include - only 1 passenger between 16 & 22 years old, restricitions on driving high-performance vehicles (basically nothing over 8 cylinders & most petrol turbos), no mobile phone use while driving (including hands-free), no towing except as part of employment in agriculture, and you can't accumulate more than 5 demerit points in a 12 month period (with the amount of speed cameras here in Melbourne, you could easily exceed this in one day if you're not careful..). You must also display red plates with a white 'P' on the front & back of your car (so the cops can easily pick on you if they get bored...)

After 12 months, if you have a good driving record, you can graduate to a 'P2' licence. The zero BAC limit & restricitions on driving high-performance cars remain, but there are no restricions on passengers or towing & you can use a phone with a hands-free device. You must display 'P' plates in white over green on the front & back of your car. A 'P2' licence is in place for 3 years (between 19 & 22 for most folks), but can be extended if your licence is suspended, or if you commit a drink or drug driving offence. If you are 21 or over when you first get your licence, you go straight to a 'P2' licence.

After all that, you then go on to a 'full' licence. Only main restricitions being that you must have a BAC of .05 or less & you can only use a mobile phone with a hands-free device while driving

http://www.vicroads.vic.gov.au/Home/...robationarylicencerestrictions.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Driver%27s_licence_in_Australia#Victoria
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fr8mech
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:16 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
LOL. And pray tell, where do you think that tax money comes from? Trees?

The government will spend our tax dollars as we (via elected representatives) see fit.


Correct, and we should attach strings to any federal money that goes to the states or to individuals. If we did more of that, maybe we could rearrange the tax structure to where we pay less to the federal government and more to our state and local governments who should be more responsive to local needs.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 29):
I don't think it "magically" confers any ability. It confers ability via the increased training and responsibility relative to other occupations.


Yes, but soldiers in the 18-20 range are usually, when they are doing their jobs, under the control, or least under the close supervision, of their non-coms and their officers. You don't usually see those non-coms and officers out at the bar with the troops, do you?

Putting on a uniform does not make you more responsible than not putting on a uniform. Exercising and exhibiting responsibility makes you more responsible. Or, you are at least perceived as more responsible...and, like it or not, in the real-world, perception is reality.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 35):
I though most people's reactions in the video were pretty obvious. They said "if you're allowed to go to war, fight for your country, or get shot at, then you should be allowed to have a drink" and I agree with them.


And, I'm not opposed to that mind-set, but to suggest that it is "doing the right thing" to entice someone to break the law is ridiculous unless the law is immoral. And, even then, you break it at significant legal jeopardy.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 35):
Because the objective of this thread is to provide an argument that the drinking age should be lowered, NOT kept the same or raised


Funny, I thought the objective of the thread was to debate the lowering of the drinking age, not to set-up some kind of echo chamber where all is allowed to be heard is support for your opinion. If you want some insightful (and less than insightful) debate then post in a public forum and hang around. If you don't want to read contrarian opinions or data, I suggest you talk to your mirror.  

[Edited 2013-03-17 05:50:32]
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GSPFlyer
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:15 pm

I finished high school 3 years ago and saw it first hand, every high schooler who wants alcohol can get it.

When I was 18, my parents told me that if I drank at a friends house and they wouldn't let me stay over, that they would come pick me up and there wouldn't be any consequences for making the responsible decision not to drive home. While some parents tell their children the same thing as mine did, some tell their kids not to drink until they are 21, and that's it. When they say that, and their 18 year old starts drinking, and the kid has to go home, they don't want to suffer the consequence if they ask their parents to drive them home, so they drive themselves, putting the lives of every other driver on the road at risk. I saw this when I was in high school, kids thought that it was fine to drive when they were buzzed, and it was pretty stupid. Maybe kids don't hear enough about the dangers of drunk driving because people think "oh, they aren't old enough to drink, so they won't drive drunk." It's definitely possible that lowering the drinking age would reduce D.U.I deaths.
 
mham001
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 34):
I think the idea of not lowering it to 18 "because many more accidents can happen, etc." is utter nonsense.

26% of the ~10,000 drunk driving deaths were in the 16-20 year old age group. Think about that. The age group in which it is already illegal is already are near the top of the stats. it doesn't get much better at 21 either as the 21-24 age group accounts for 34% of drunk deaths. When your family is wiped out by a drunk or you end up in a wheelchair for life, I doubt you will be calling that "nonsense".

That needs to be repeated.

34%, or ~3,400 people died last year at the hands of drunks under age 25. 2,600 dead people at the hands of drunks under 21. EVERY YEAR (actually, it used to be much worse). This does not include the maimed. Nor does it account for the massive social upheaval this causes through the innocent dead's families.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 35):
Because the objective of this thread is to provide an argument that the drinking age should be lowered, NOT kept the same or raised.

I see. So only those who agree with you should post here?
 
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mayor
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 23):
Quoting mayor (Reply 17):
The REAL bad guys are the guy that wants to buy them a drink AND the bartender that he refers to that WILL serve them, no matter their age.

Wait... What?? You're saying that these people are evil for serving someone who obviously deserves it?

Yep..........considerably more evil than the way you portray the bartender that won't serve them. For one thing, the third party that wants to buy them a drink is taking on no responsibility of what might happen after they do and he knows it. He knows that ALL the responsibility is on the bartender and yet, someone like you thinks the bartender is a bad guy for abiding by the law.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
Maverick623
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 8:42 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 30):
They are well behaved teenagers who know their place.

We're not talking about your kids, we're talking about teenagers in general, who you seem to have a pretty poor opinion of for some reason.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 30):
They also know when to keep their mounths shut and accept some criticism.

Something you should try sometime, instead of blaming rascally kids for the world's problems.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 34):
I think the idea of not lowering it to 18 "because many more accidents can happen, etc." is utter nonsense.

Unfortunately, it's not.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
rfields5421
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:21 pm

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 34):
I think the idea of not lowering it to 18 "because many more accidents can happen, etc." is utter nonsense.

The statistics from the 70s when the drinking age in most of the US show that a substantially higher number of people under 21 are involved in, seriously injured in, and died from alcohol related accidents that the years previously.

And yes as a child of the 60s who was under 21 when it was the drinking age, I never had trouble obtaining alcohol. That aspect has not changed.

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 35):
Indeed, I am trying to make a logical and valid argument here, and I apologize if I am not.

The argument I need to see backed up by more than a few personal stories is

1. Young people ages 18-21 are more mature than their parents were at that age,
2. They take their responsibilities more seriously,
3. They know and understand the dangers of drinking and driving, and binge drinking,
4. That they vast majority of kids 18-21 will not engage in such behaviors if given the legal ability to purchase and consume alcohol.

And the high schools students, and recent high school graduates I see and interact with every day do NOT support any of those arguments.

If anything they are even more clueless idiots than I was - and it takes some real effort to be as stupid as I was when started drinking.

The only answer that I have as to why I didn't die, or kill someone, while drinking and driving while under 21 is divine intervention.
 
3DoorsDown
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:57 pm

I would be OK with lowering it if:

1st drunk driving offense: Take away their license. This will do no good because drunks will still drive whether theyhave a license or not. Kind of like illegal gun owners.
2nd offense: Take away their will to live. There are many ways to do this.
3rd offense or if they kill anyone at anytime. Execution.

I am tired of seeing innocent people getting killed and nothing happening to the dumb@$$ behind the wheel.
 
srbmod
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:32 pm

When I was a teenager, my mom and stepdad would let me have the occasional sip of alcohol, usually something like a half glass of beer or wine or a wee nip of liquor. They didn't keep the booze locked up and yeah I would sneak a sip of liquor every once in a while. I remember one of the first times I got drunk as a teenager was at my neighbor across the street's house as he raided his parents liquor stash while they were out of town. I guess I got a bit tipsy, but made sure I had sobered up before walking back across the street because I didn't know how my parents would feel about it.

Regardless of the legal drinking age, there will always be ways for those under the legal drinking age to acquire it. Whether it is someone of legal age purchasing it, they've procured it from a parent's stash or a bar or store in which they are very lax in checking IDs, there are plenty of ways to get it.

Perhaps there ought to be some changes in the drinking laws. Keep the age to buy it at 21, but allow those that are 19 and 20 to legally be able to consume it in the presence of someone 21 or older. There would also have to be some tinkering with the DUI/DWI laws, as some states have a very low BAC limit for DUI/DWI for those under 21 (Here in Georgia it's .02, as supposedly the machines used to measure BAC have a margin of error of .02.). Perhaps make the legal BAC limit for 19 and 20 years .04.
 
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mayor
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting seb146 (Reply 33):
Remember when the big thing was states deciding their own speed limits on interstate freeways?

They still do. Back when there was a 55 mph limit, nationwide, it was because the feds blackmailed the states with the usual "if you don't comply, you'll get no federal highway funds".

Quoting AlnessW (Reply 35):
They said "if you're allowed to go to war, fight for your country, or get shot at, then you should be allowed to have a drink" and I agree with them.

Considering that there's no longer any draft and it's an all volunteer force, no one is forcing anyone to join up and go to war.
"A committee is a group of the unprepared, appointed by the unwilling, to do the unnecessary"----Fred Allen
 
seb146
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:51 am

Quoting mayor (Reply 47):
They still do. Back when there was a 55 mph limit, nationwide, it was because the feds blackmailed the states with the usual "if you don't comply, you'll get no federal highway funds".

Maybe if enough states got together and lowered the age while toughening the drunk driving laws, the feds would do the same thing.

By toughening drunk driving laws, I am thinking lower BAC to .04 and have first offence be a minimum 3 years loss of license. Unless there is property or personal damage, then it would be more. But, I agree that a convicted drunk driver will still get behind the wheel.
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trav110
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:25 am

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 45):
1st drunk driving offense: Take away their license. This will do no good because drunks will still drive whether they have a license or not. Kind of like illegal gun owners.
2nd offense: Take away their will to live. There are many ways to do this.
3rd offense or if they kill anyone at anytime. Execution.

That series of punishments is just sick. I agree that for the first offence they should have their drivers license taken (and be jailed for any subsequent offences) but if they become habitual violators then it's pretty clear that they are alcoholics. Part of the problem with alcoholism is that the need to drink trumps every other aspect in life to the point where people make terrible decisions on a regular basis, and the only way for a majority of people with drinking problems to break the cycle is through a drug/alcohol treatment program. Punishing them by "taking away their will to live" is not only ludicrous and ineffective, but it is the exact opposite of what should be done if the goal is to convert this person back into a functioning member of society.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: The Drinking Age In The US Should Be Lowered

Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets (Reply 36):
The responsibility of drinking and it's effects would come from the parents.

Agree w/you 100%, in principle; but, in many instances, a growing number of kids today aren't raised in in homes where their parent(s) are actually paying attention to them or aware of their actions. Parent(s) seem to be less responsible and involved in their children's lives than their predecessors.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 3):
Groups like MADD got started over the terrible rate of death of their teen children. That led to a tied Federal law of where all states had to raise the drinking age to not less than 21 in a few years or lose some Federal highway funds.

To add, the primary motivation behind a single, minimum, drinking age across-the-nation was due to discourage border-hopping to states that had lower legal drinking ages; Vermont being one of them at the time.

Prior to the Federal Drinking age being implemented, it was not uncommon for (usually) college students from neighboring Massachusetts (UMass-Amherst as an example) and/or New Hampshire (Dartmouth College in Hanover, NH as an example) to drive into Vermont (where the legal age was still 18 at the time) to either purchase alcohol or drink at a restaurant/bar and drive back (while buzzed/intoxicated) and possibly get into an accident leading to an injury or even death to either them or others.

The under-21 border-hopping, drunk-driving-related issues & accidents basically got to a boiling point w/neighboring states during the 1980s. State measures and statutes to deter drunk driving among younger drivers in states surrounding Vermont were basically undermined by Vernont's staying w/18 being the legal age. In the neighboring states' views, a call to the Feds to remedy the action (in their minds) was the best way to halt the alcohol-related border-hopping and DUIs among minors.
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