mham001
Topic Author
Posts: 4190
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Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 2:55 am

In a monumental embarrassment, VW has been forced by Chinese regulators to recall 384,000 cars equipped with DSG transmissions in a variety of brands and models. "The models include the imported Scirocco, Golf Variant and Audi A3, and locally produced models such as New Bora, Golf A6, Sagitar, Magotan, Touran, Lavida and New Passat......The recall was prompted by a demand from the quality watchdog and comes after China Central Television aired a program on March 15 - World Consumer Rights Day - that claimed Volkswagen had been selling cars with substandard direct-shift gearbox systems, which caused acceleration problems and car accidents. http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2013-03/21/content_16326453.htm

It would be easy to dismiss this as a Made In China issue if not that it includes imported models and complaints are beginning to pile up in Australia and the US as well. To be fair, Ford and Porsche have also had some DSG woes but none to this extent. Is this technology not ready for prime time? Or is VW quality not even up to Chinese standards? For years I have read of the apparent disparity between quality standards of cars sold in Europe vs the rest of the world. That disparity is very apparent in VW/Audi quality surveys among US buyers with both brands ranking far below average.
http://autos.jdpower.com/ratings/dependability-press-release.htm

For VW, the quest is world domination by 2018. How much this will affect that goal remains to be seen.
 
BMI727
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:30 am

I know you have some sort of pathological dislike for VW and German cars in general, but let's get some facts straight.

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
To be fair, Ford and Porsche have also had some DSG woes but none to this extent.

Neither Ford nor Porsche have ever used DSG. DSG is the name given to Volkswagen and Audi's dual clutch transmission and is actually two different transmissions: the one this recall affects which is for transverse engine designs, and a different version for longitudinal engine designs which I don't believe any of the cars in this recall are equipped with. The latter is called S-Tronic by Audi when used in their cars.

Porsche, despite being part of the group, uses their own design, the PDK, which is widely regarded as the best transmission in the world.

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Is this technology not ready for prime time?

Just the opposite. This technology is the future and has already supplanted manual transmissions to the point where even performance oriented cars are eschewing sticks (see Porsche GT3 and Ferrari) and making the only reason for a manual transmission just personal preference.

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Or is VW quality not even up to Chinese standards?

I suspect that Chinese standards might be a little different for foreign companies.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
bill142
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 3:59 am

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Or is VW quality not even up to Chinese standards?

Chinese standards?? Great Wall had their vehicles recalled in Australia because they contained asbestos. VW standards are miles ahead of the Chinese. This really seems like a case of the pot calling the kettle black.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:35 am

We've been happily using a DSG equipped VW for 18 months now without any problems at all.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Neither Ford nor Porsche have ever used DSG.

Ford calls their version Powershift, but I think DSG is the term that is most common and the one that most people use when referring to dual clutch transmissions, regardless of make.
 
A342
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Neither Ford nor Porsche have ever used DSG. DSG is the name given to Volkswagen and Audi's dual clutch transmission and is actually two different transmissions: the one this recall affects which is for transverse engine designs, and a different version for longitudinal engine designs which I don't believe any of the cars in this recall are equipped with. The latter is called S-Tronic by Audi when used in their cars.

There are three different VW-designed dual-clutch gearboxes for transverse installation and one for longitudinal installaion. Audi calls them all S-tronic, while VW, Skoda and Seat call them DSG (currently, only Audi uses the longitudinal version).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Porsche, despite being part of the group, uses their own design, the PDK,

Actually designed and produced by ZF.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
which is widely regarded as the best transmission in the world.

Too much of a generalization. Best for what purpose and by what standards?
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
I suspect that Chinese standards might be a little different for foreign companies.

Exactly. There is clearly a shift in China where they're now looking closely into imported products to point out any failing however minimal, while letting their own manufacturers make crap. The idea is probably to prop them up and protect their market, we'll see if the west retaliates.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
BMI727
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:29 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 3):
Ford calls their version Powershift, but I think DSG is the term that is most common and the one that most people use when referring to dual clutch transmissions, regardless of make

Usually here people will just call it a DCT or manumatic, although the latter could also apply to a mechanically assisted manual or shiftable automatic.

Quoting A342 (Reply 4):
(currently, only Audi uses the longitudinal version).

What about the A3?

Quoting A342 (Reply 4):
Best for what purpose and by what standards?

Pretty much all of them apparently. I cannot recall any automotive journalists disliking it, but they may be out there.

In terms of performance, the numbers are there. PDK is better than manual and way better than Tiptronic for acceleration and fuel economy as well.

For practicality, it's good in stop and go traffic as any automatic is compared to a stick shift and as far as I know lacks the herky-jerky motions of e-Gear/R-Tronic.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
A342
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 8:55 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
What about the A3?

Well, the A3 (and A1 and Q3) with their transverse engines use dual-clutch gearboxes too, but Audi calls them all S-Tronics.
What I mean that currently, at least to my knowledge, no other VW group manufacturer other than Audi uses the VW-designed unit for longitudinal installation, be it because there are no applications (Seat, Skoda), the sole longitudinal engine cars use torque converter automatics (VW Phaeton and Touareg), a unit supplied by ZF is used (Porsche) or no dual-clutch gearboxes are used at all (Bentley). The Veyron uses a unit supplied by Ricardo, and I think Lamborghini doesn't use dual clutch gearboxes (yet).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
Pretty much all of them apparently. I cannot recall any automotive journalists disliking it, but they may be out there.

The same can be said about the ZF 8-speed auto.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 6):
In terms of performance, the numbers are there. PDK is better than manual and way better than Tiptronic for acceleration and fuel economy as well.

Compared to the Tiptronics previously used by Porsche in the 911 and Boxster? Sure, but that's also due to improved engine technology. But I wouldn't say way better, Tiptronic equipped 911s were/are fast as hell, too, especially the turbo.
And a modern torque converter automatic is not necessarily worse than a dual-clutch gearbox both in terms of economy and acceleration, the gap is largely gone.


A dual-clutch gearbox is a very good choice for a sportscar, but for an SUV / truck or luxury car, a present day torque converter automatic is at least as good, in some respects better.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
BMI727
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:50 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
Well, the A3 (and A1 and Q3) with their transverse engines use dual-clutch gearboxes too, but Audi calls them all S-Tronics.

I'm pretty sure there are some fairly significant differences between the transverse version of the A1, Q3, and A3 and the longitudinal version in the other cars although they're all called S-Tronic.

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
I think Lamborghini doesn't use dual clutch gearboxes (yet).

They don't. It's still the old e-Gear semi-automatic, which is called R-Tronic in the Audi R8.

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
And a modern torque converter automatic is not necessarily worse than a dual-clutch gearbox both in terms of economy and acceleration, the gap is largely gone.

Torque converters will sap more power though, just like any automatic transmission.

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
A dual-clutch gearbox is a very good choice for a sportscar, but for an SUV / truck or luxury car, a present day torque converter automatic is at least as good, in some respects better.

There are not many reasons for it in a truck, but quite a few luxury sedans are using dual clutch transmissions now.

Quoting A342 (Reply 7):
Sure, but that's also due to improved engine technology. But I wouldn't say way better, Tiptronic equipped 911s were/are fast as hell, too, especially the turbo.

Tiptronic was fast, and the engines have still improved but PDK is still better. It wasn't that long ago that manuals delivered better performance than the Tiptronics, and while they improved, PDK blows the manual transmissions away.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
A342
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:01 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
I'm pretty sure there are some fairly significant differences between the transverse version of the A1, Q3, and A3 and the longitudinal version in the other cars although they're all called S-Tronic.

Number of gears, wet/dry clutches and the layout of course. What else are you looking for? As I said, there three different units for transverse engines.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Torque converters will sap more power though, just like any automatic transmission.

That's why the lockup clutch was invented.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
There are not many reasons for it in a truck

Oh, that's actually changing for heavy trucks right now. Volvo is shaking up the business with their iShift 2 transmission.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
but quite a few luxury sedans are using dual clutch transmissions now.

Sporty ones like the Panamera. Apart from that category, none.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
mham001
Topic Author
Posts: 4190
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:52 am

RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:30 pm

In yesterday's news......

Audi settles CVT class-action suit over 2002-06 A4 failures

A class-action lawsuit, lodged against Volkswagen Group of America over alleged defects with the continuously variable transmissions (CVT) it put in 64,000 2002-06 Audi A4 and A6 models, has been settled. The German automaker has denied all allegations,.....
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/03/25/a...-2002-06-a4-failures/#aol-comments

What is interesting is that they extended the warranty but the extension is already expired. Even more interesting are the comments to the article by VW victims.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):

I'm pretty sure there are some fairly significant differences between the transverse version of the A1, Q3, and A3 and the longitudinal version in the other cars although they're all called S-Tronic.

Completely different, the transverse version was developed by BorgWarner and licensed to VAG. The version Audi uses for longitudinal applications was developed in house and (I think) manufactured by Audi.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):

They don't. It's still the old e-Gear semi-automatic, which is called R-Tronic in the Audi R8.

With the latest R8 facelift the old e-gear semi auto was dumped and replaced with a 7 speed Audi developed S-tronic transmission.
 
planewasted
Posts: 460
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RE: Chinese Force VW Recall Over Quality Issues

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:19 pm

It's no secret that VW and Audi has problems with some of their engines and tranmissions. I will never consider them as they seem to refuse to take any responsibility.
In Sweden they don't recommend DSG for taxis, but for normal users. How redicoulus isn't that?

[Edited 2013-03-26 10:20:15]

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