JoePatroni707
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Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:33 am

The court has overturned her appeal and she must go back to Italy to stand for retrial..

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...-retrial-meredith-kercher/2020289/
 
CplKlinger
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:01 pm

Actually, she does not, and more than likely won't be compelled to. She will be tried in absentia if she if found guilty, Italy can request her extradition. I can see the US turning that request down rather quickly. The Italian justice system is not particularly known for it's trustworthiness. As long as she stays out of an EU member country, there is little to no chance of her ending up back in Italy.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:26 pm

This is double jeopardy in the US which is not allowed by the US Constitution. I highly doubt Amanda Knox will go back even if extradition is requested. The US State department would have grounds to turn it down. The prosecution would have to put forth an extemely compelling argument of her guilt. Based on the last trial, I do not think this is possible.
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Aesma
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Actually the Italian justice system is pretty solid, not afraid to go after the powerful, and independent from politicians. Now, I have really no opinion on that particular story, Italians think she's guilty, Americans think she's innocent, it has nothing to do with the facts.
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NoUFO
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
This is double jeopardy

No, it is not. It is a normal appeal, else her temporary release from prison would have been double jeopardy as well.
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romeobravo
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:05 pm

Unless there is new evidence, a retrial seem illegitimate to me.
 
NoUFO
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:15 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 5):
Unless there is new evidence, a retrial seem illegitimate to me.

A plaintiff can only appeal a decision when there is new evidence? Wow!
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zckls04
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 4):
No, it is not. It is a normal appeal, else her temporary release from prison would have been double jeopardy as well.

Indeed. She hasn't been recharged; the verdict from a lower court has been annulled on appeal. No double jeopardy would apply.

Wonder what the rationale for this ruling is though.
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romeobravo
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:26 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 6):
A plaintiff can only appeal a decision when there is new evidence? Wow!

Well you have to decide one way or the other at some point.
 
mham001
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:37 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 6):
A plaintiff can only appeal a decision when there is new evidence? Wow!

I believe you are confusing civil with criminal. If she was found innocent, it is double jeopardy. If it was a hung jury or mistrial, different story.
 
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:48 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Well you have to decide one way or the other at some point.

At what point? As long as the formal appeal process remains open, no decision is written in stone. Mrs. Knox's acquittal wasn't a final decision.

It doesn't make a very good impression when a lower court first convinces a defendant, then an appeals court nullifies the conviction, and then a higher appeals court questions the previous acquittal. But this can happen and does indeed happen - not only in Italy of course.
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smittyone
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:50 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Actually the Italian justice system is pretty solid, not afraid to go after the powerful, and independent from politicians. Now, I have really no opinion on that particular story, Italians think she's guilty, Americans think she's innocent, it has nothing to do with the facts.

Untrue.

I think she's guilty as sin, but also that any government should only get one opportunity to try somebody for a crime.


If folks in Rome want to let the courts bend Italians over a barrel that's fine, but I don't think the US should extradite Knox in this case.
 
L-188
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:54 pm

Unfortunate after the railroad job the Italians tried to pull and are still trying to follow through with.

I doubt she will over go back to Italy. Their so called justice system has a habit of trying to screw over Americans.
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
I believe you are confusing civil with criminal.

No, I don't.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 9):
If she was found innocent, it is double jeopardy.

That's a double 'no'. The prosecutor can appeal against any decision made by a court that appears to violate judicature, and Mrs Knox wasn't found innocent, even though she's considered to be innocent.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
Their so called justice system has a habit of trying to screw over Americans.

Is that just a cheap shot at non-Americans or can you actually substantiate your claim?
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L-188
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:02 pm

NoUFO

I am thinking of that EA-6B crew that Italian officials didn't want to follow the existing SOFA on. particulaly the two backs eaters. The mock charges against this alleged CIA officials that even the national government there refused to ask extradition on even though they had been convicted In absentia the case was that bad. And of course the railroad job previously done on Ms. knox.
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Aesma
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:05 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 2):
This is double jeopardy in the US which is not allowed by the US Constitution.

Doesn't that cover Roman Polanski ?

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 11):
I think she's guilty as sin, but also that any government should only get one opportunity to try somebody for a crime.

Well that's the US system. In other countries both parties can appeal, whether the decision is innocence or guilt. In France it is quite new (last 10 or 15 years) before that none could appeal for criminal trials (the ones with a jury).
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casinterest
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:06 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 4):
No, it is not. It is a normal appeal, else her temporary release from prison would have been double jeopardy as well

In Italy, maybe, However they were aquitted AND released from prison by the Appeals court in Italy. In the US. You can't stand trial twice for the same crime. It is double jeopardy.

I understand Italy has different rules, but the way this is regarded in the US is still double jeopardy. Either way after the geologist fiasco, if I was innocent I wouldn't return voluntarily to Italy for a retrial
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L-188
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:21 pm

Aesma,

roman Polanski was convicted and fled before sentencing. But for a child molester (statutory rape) that probably is par for the course.
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smittyone
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
That's a double 'no'. The prosecutor can appeal against any decision made by a court that appears to violate judicature, and Mrs Knox wasn't found innocent, even though she's considered to be innocent.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Well that's the US system. In other countries both parties can appeal, whether the decision is innocence or guilt. In France it is quite new (last 10 or 15 years) before that none could appeal for criminal trials (the ones with a jury).

Congratulations...but I fundamentally disagree with that and would not like to see our government send a US citizen to Italy to be tried for the same crime again after an acquittal.

For the same reason I understand and concur when other countries who disagree with our system (ie capital punishment) likewise refuse to extradite people to the US.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 15):
Doesn't that cover Roman Polanski ?

No, different situation. He was found guilty but fled the US because he feared the judge was going to reneg on a plea agreement. I don't know who was legally right or wrong in that case but it's not strictly a 'double jeopardy' issue.

On a side note, I'd like to go on record to say that Roman Polanski is a douche for admitting to having sex with a 13-year old girl in a plea bargain in the first place. If it were my daughter, the courts would be least of his concerns!
 
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OA260
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:26 pm

I actually think that she should not be extradited by the USA if requested by Italy. I don't believe in the Italian justice system to give her a fair trial. They had the chance they ruled and it should be case closed.

There are also plenty of times I think EU countries should not extradite to the USA too.
 
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zckls04
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:31 pm

Don't they already have a guy in jail for this murder? What's the question here? Were they supposed to be in it together?
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NoUFO
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
In the US. You can't stand trial twice for the same crime. It is double jeopardy.

When you were found innocent, you can't stand trial for the same crime again, that's right. Talks in American media about double jeopardy being non-existent in Italy is bull I am pretty sure, even though I do not really know Italy's judicial standards. It is just that the case wasn't closed in Mrs Knox' case.

edit:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 20):
Don't they already have a guy in jail for this murder? What's the question here? Were they supposed to be in it together?

Yes and - apparently - yes.

[Edited 2013-03-26 10:38:05]
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Aesma
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 14):
NoUFO

I am thinking of that EA-6B crew that Italian officials didn't want to follow the existing SOFA on. particulaly the two backs eaters.

Well if an Italian military plane had done something similar in the US I'm sure the US public would be fine if the crew went home with no questions asked.

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 18):
No, different situation. He was found guilty but fled the US because he feared the judge was going to reneg on a plea agreement. I don't know who was legally right or wrong in that case but it's not strictly a 'double jeopardy' issue.

He wasn't found guilty as there was no trial. There was a plea, he did the time. If something else happens after that I don't see how it's not double jeopardy.
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):
He wasn't found guilty as there was no trial. There was a plea, he did the time. If something else happens after that I don't see how it's not double jeopardy.

He willingly agreed to be convicted of a lesser offense, expecting a lighter punishment. I don't know enough about his specific plea agreement to say whether what the judge was planning to do in 1978 was legal or not.

[Edited 2013-03-26 11:56:57]
 
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casinterest
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 21):
It is just that the case wasn't closed in Mrs Knox' case.

But it was closed. The appeals court aquitted her. She walked out without handcuffs and was set free. You don't get a redo in the USA. The Italians will rerun their case, but I don't think their is anything else compelling. The defense mishandled the evidence, and in the very realest sense, there was no real motive.
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:42 pm

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 7):
Indeed. She hasn't been recharged; the verdict from a lower court has been annulled on appeal. No double jeopardy would apply.

As soon as the not guilty result was delivered by a jury and accepted by the lower court judge then any further actions by other courts against her is double jeopardy.

It is logical to allow upper courts to overturn a guilty verdict when those upper courts find inappropriate actions by the prosecution (government). It is not appropriate for prosecutors to continually retry a person because they don't like the jury's verdict. Is it not possible that the Italian prosecutors could continue to retry Amanda Knox over and over again until she's an old woman it juries continue to deliver decisions that the prosecutors don't like.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
Mrs. Knox's acquittal wasn't a final decision.

In terms of extradition is certainly is for the US. Amanda might need to get a list of countries that are safe to visit and countries that re not safe, but for now she needs to put her passport away.
 
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:47 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 24):
But it was closed.

From what I understand it wasn't because the prosecutor challenged the acquittal in due time. Mrs Knox acquittal was, to my knowledge, never a final legal decision.

Edit:

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 26):
In terms of extradition is certainly is for the US.

Yes, that's certainly right. She would have to stay clear from Schengen member countries (if not the entire European Union), but in the U.S. she's certainly safe.

[Edited 2013-03-26 11:49:47]
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GDB
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:57 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 12):
I doubt she will over go back to Italy. Their so called justice system has a habit of trying to screw over Americans.

While the Italian justice system can appear chaotic, slow, even eccentric, they do not carry out judicial murder, including of, inevtiably, innocent people.
Neither do they set up extra judicial gulags on what is essentially a colony.
They both sound harsh i know, I'm just comparing catch all judgements from outsiders of nations justice systems.

Every justice system in every country has it's quirks, in my one for instance, it has a very eccentric idea of defamation and libel which is turning London into a one stop shop for the rich to sue, not just oligarchs but the Scientologists of all people.

I note the name Meredith Kercher has not been mentioned ONCE in this discussion so far.
You have to wonder if it has been in all the coverage in the US of Knox and 'her ordeal', 'her journey', likely with cheesy background music, photogenic images and soft focus footage.

The investigation and trial was complex and messy, however any police officer worthy of that title has to consider all the evidence, witness, forensic and the behavior of suspects.
Knox at least has still some serious questions on that front that were never answered.

Italy is a Western nation, a democracy, a US ally, it's not a theocracy run by Mullahs, or a one party state like China, or even a state where the leaders distort the judiciary for political/economic gain, like Mr Putin does.

It is also worth noting that Knox's former boyfriend, an Italian national, is also facing re-trial, which renders absurd the whole rather silly 'they are trying to screw an American over'.

Knox should go clear her name if she's innocent, if she can take time off from her whole highly lucrative book deal/talk show circuit thing.

[Edited 2013-03-26 12:54:42]
 
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Aesma
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:10 pm

From wikipedia :

Both the defendant and the prosecutor can appeal against the judgement before the Corte d'Appello (Court of Appeals), that will retry the defendant. The judgement passed by the Court of Appeals can be appealed, again, before the Court of Cassation, that cannot rule on merits. Both the Court of Appeals and the Court of Cassation must examine and rule on every appeal. They can uphold, modify or quash the sentence.

The prosecutor can appeal all judgements issued by the Court of first instance — this means that a not-guilty verdict can be appealed and overturned too -. The Court of Appeals can hand down a more serious penalty than the Court of instance.
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zckls04
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 25):
As soon as the not guilty result was delivered by a jury and accepted by the lower court judge then any further actions by other courts against her is double jeopardy.

Yes- you're right. I misread the details of the original trial.

I hope they don't extradite her TBH (even though I believe she's guilty, based on ludicrously subjective reasons). Once these kind of cases turn into a nationalistic pissing contest the verdict may as well be made on the toss of a coin. Better to err on the side of caution and leave as is.
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casinterest
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 27):
Knox should go clear her name if she's innocent, if she can take time off from her whole highly lucrative book deal/talk show circuit thing.

I disagree strongly. To go is not in her best interests. Sacrifice more time on a wild goose chase because the Prosecutors want to prove that their flimsy motive has flimsy backing evidence in front of a jury again? The line on this is already 50/50 , and now that the Prosecutors are pushing for a retrial, it does nothing for Knox to return. The evidence has been presented, she has testified. The means by which the prosecutor's physical evidence was presented and tested has been shredded by most academics ( which is the reason for the aquittal in 2011) . To go back is to give play to the Prosecutor's sex games gone bad theory that involved 4 people.
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 27):
I note the name Meredith Kercher has not been mentioned ONCE in this discussion so far.

Out of curiosity, what would that do, except for escalate people's emotions and have them calling for blood? I don't think anyone's forgotten about her, given than this all started with her murder....
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OA260
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 8:47 pm

The extradition treaty between the USA and Italy apparently says that once found innocent they cant extradite. I guess its case closed.
 
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 30):
I disagree strongly. To go is not in her best interests.

You are probably right.
The interests of justice, for the Kercher family however, is a different matter.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 31):
Out of curiosity, what would that do, except for escalate people's emotions

I agree about that, up to a point.
Turn it around however, consider if it had been a young American woman murdered in grisly circumstances in Italy where one of the suspects had been a British woman.
The airwaves, Internet and column inches would been straining under the weight of emotion, anger, accusation, cries for a re-trial and pure blood lust masquerading as 'justice'.

I don't have a view on whether Knox is innocent, guilty of taking part in a murder, I do have a view of the canonisation of her however by much of the US media.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:17 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
The interests of justice, for the Kercher family however, is a different matter.

Guede is already in prison for the murder . They have their justice. The DNA, and footprint in the blood matched him.

However the Prosecutors and police want to beleive that 3 people attacked and murdered Meredith Kercher for a sex game, and the no corroberating details from 3 presumed participants?

It's a waste of time and money. The Prosecutors blew the initial case, and the evidence was blown by the police.



Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
Turn it around however, consider if it had been a young American woman murdered in grisly circumstances in Italy where one of the suspects had been a British woman.

Let's go one further. Imagine it was a big sports star that was aquitted of murdering his wife and lover? OJ Simpson was aquitted, and everyone had to deal with it.
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting Smittyone (Reply 11):
If folks in Rome want to let the courts bend Italians over a barrel that's fine, but I don't think the US should extradite Knox in this case.

Agree....but you never know how insane our State Dept will be given the past several years.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 28):
From wikipedia :

Both the defendant and the prosecutor can appeal against the judgement before the Corte d'Appello (Court of Appeals), that will retry the defendant. The judgement passed by the Court of Appeals can be appealed, again, before the Court of Cassation, that cannot rule on merits. Both the Court of Appeals and the Court of Cassation must examine and rule on every appeal. They can uphold, modify or quash the sentence.

The prosecutor can appeal all judgements issued by the Court of first instance — this means that a not-guilty verdict can be appealed and overturned too -. The Court of Appeals can hand down a more serious penalty than the Court of instance.

That is one seriously F'ed up justice system.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:32 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):
He wasn't found guilty as there was no trial. There was a plea, he did the time. If something else happens after that I don't see how it's not double jeopardy.


He still needs to serve his time for his conviction. If he returned to the USA he wouldn't be retried, as his conviction still stands.

He plead guilty to a lessor charge and was awaiting sentence when he left the country. Many criminals are out on bond between sentence and trial or plea deal. He didn't serve is time for crime, he served time in jail before trial (42 days), but there was a plea deal instead. People charged with a crime may or may not get released on bail (or there could be bail set and nobody can pay it so they stay in jail). Many times a judge will take the time served before trial for credit on sentence, but you still have to serve time after sentence. If you skip out before sentence you are a fugitive.

Example. Lets say you serve 30 days in jail while awaiting trial and you get sentenced to 24 months in prison a judge may credit you with the time already served and you get 23 months in prison. It happen on much smaller sentences too. I have known people who have been sentenced to 10 days in jail, but are given credit for the short period in jail before they posed bail so they spent 9 days in jail, with credit for one.

For what its worth.... 42 days wouldn't be the typical sentence for a man who gave a 13 year old drugs and anally raped her. The Sentence would be measured in years not days.
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:40 pm

Quoting slider (Reply 35):
That is one seriously F'ed up justice system.

Maybe it is, OJ Simpson was mentioned, what to say about a system however that appears a lot of the time to be a branch of the 'infotainment' industry?
 
vikkyvik
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Tue Mar 26, 2013 11:20 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
Turn it around however, consider if it had been a young American woman murdered in grisly circumstances in Italy where one of the suspects had been a British woman.
The airwaves, Internet and column inches would been straining under the weight of emotion, anger, accusation, cries for a re-trial and pure blood lust masquerading as 'justice'.

That's fine, but my opinion on what I said wouldn't change.

It's a confusing thing for me sometimes (and to be fair, I've never been in this situation). More often than not, when a previous conviction is overturned, you hear the family of the victims crying out in protest, saying that justice has been discarded for their loved one. You never hear "oh, well maybe that person didn't actually do it".

And I soft of feel the same way about people saying "remember the victim!" It feels like a call to convict someone, anyone, to appease to family of the victim. Not saying that that's what's meant by it, it's just the feeling I get.
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Aesma
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting slider (Reply 35):
That is one seriously F'ed up justice system.

To each their own. The French system is pretty similar (both having roots in ancient Rome) and if it has its flaws, I'm glad we mostly don't have pleas (they were controversially introduced recently, but only for small charges usually judged even quicker than a plea takes), I'm glad we don't have prosecutors or police that are elected politicians, I'm glad we don't put more than 1/1000 inhabitants in jail...

Quoting falstaff (Reply 36):
For what its worth.... 42 days wouldn't be the typical sentence

In 2013 no, but this was the 70's.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 36):
He didn't serve is time for crime, he served time in jail before trial (42 days), but there was a plea deal instead.

Yeah, and what was the plea ? He was expecting probation, then the judge changed his mind. I guess the US system can change its mind after the fact, after all.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 38):
More often than not, when a previous conviction is overturned, you hear the family of the victims crying out in protest, saying that justice has been discarded for their loved one. You never hear "oh, well maybe that person didn't actually do it".

This happened recently with the Florence Cassez situation. Similarly, she's an attractive young woman claiming her innocence and being unfairly treated by a foreign justice system (in Mexico). I don't know if she was guilty of anything, but I can't respect a justice system that fakes her arrest on live TV. After 7 years in jail and a change of president in Mexico the supreme court released her, precisely because it was shown that she was used as a political pawn to show the government was doing something about the kidnappings. She's back in France, but at no point was it proven that she was innocent. At least she's not suspected of murder so those who believe in her guilt should consider the time she spent in jail, her 60 years sentence was ridiculous.
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:19 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Italians think she's guilty, Americans think she's innocent, it has nothing to do with the facts.

Trust me, not ALL Americans think she's innocent.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Is that just a cheap shot at non-Americans or can you actually substantiate your claim?

No. I think it was a shot at Italians. Or at least their justice system.
 
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RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:17 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 37):
Maybe it is, OJ Simpson was mentioned, what to say about a system however that appears a lot of the time to be a branch of the 'infotainment' industry?

That is true only if one wanted to see it that way.
 
Flighty
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Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:55 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Italians think she's guilty, Americans think she's innocent, it has nothing to do with the facts.

I think she's guilty.

Quoting 3DoorsDown (Reply 40):
Trust me, not ALL Americans think she's innocent.

   Good looking, though.
 
flyguy89
Posts: 1887
Joined: Tue Feb 24, 2009 6:43 pm

RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:41 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 10):
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 8):
Well you have to decide one way or the other at some point.

At what point? As long as the formal appeal process remains open, no decision is written in stone. Mrs. Knox's acquittal wasn't a final decision.

This whole debate makes no difference though as far as extradition is concerned. We have to remember that numerous differences exist between the civil law system in Italy and the common law system in place in the US. In Italy this obviously is not double jeopardy (as you're arguing), but in the US it is. Because of this, the US could not act to extradite Knox as they would be participating in an action (offering her up for a double jeopardy trial) that is unconstitutional.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
I understand Italy has different rules, but the way this is regarded in the US is still double jeopardy.

This is all that matters in the end with the US being the extraditing party.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 20):
Don't they already have a guy in jail for this murder? What's the question here? Were they supposed to be in it together?

I've always been confused by this as well. I know civil law is different from common law, but what generally is the burden of proof prosecutions have to prove in civil law systems? I can only comment from the common law-US perspective, but I never understood how she was found guilty in the first place as it did not appear to me that the prosecution proved 'beyond a reasonable doubt' that Knox had committed the murder (contaminated evidence, lack of motive..etc), perhaps someone with more knowledge of the two legal systems can speak to this.
 
Pellegrine
Posts: 1766
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:19 am

RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:28 am

She is so guilty. I think she is guilty as sin.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 19):

I actually think that she should not be extradited by the USA if requested by Italy. I don't believe in the Italian justice system to give her a fair trial. They had the chance they ruled and it should be case closed.

There are also plenty of times I think EU countries should not extradite to the USA too.

I also agree with this.                  

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 20):

Don't they already have a guy in jail for this murder? What's the question here? Were they supposed to be in it together?

It was some weird drunk group sex that turned bad. Very bad.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 22):

Well if an Italian military plane had done something similar in the US I'm sure the US public would be fine if the crew went home with no questions asked.

I'm sure all the American A.net members would be perfectly silent.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 34):

Guede is already in prison for the murder . They have their justice. The DNA, and footprint in the blood matched him.

If the murder was committed by multiple people, one person cannot take the blame.

Quoting slider (Reply 35):

That is one seriously F'ed up justice system.

According to whom? You? Based on what?
oh boy!!!
 
AR385
Posts: 6735
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 8:25 am

RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:28 am

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
Similarly, she's an attractive young woman claiming her innocence and being unfairly treated by a foreign justice system (in Mexico).

She is attractive, sure. Unfairly treated? She lived like royalty in her cell. Having an entire one for herself. She had niceties as freshly ground coffee and specially cooked food. She got flown back to Paris in AF on C upon her release and received like royalty at the Elysée. Shame on the French government for treating a convicted kidnapper, an accesory to murder, a torturer and a sadist like a persecuted martyr.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
I don't know if she was guilty of anything,

She was guilty as sin. Of kidnapping, torture and of accesory to murder.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
After 7 years in jail and a change of president in Mexico the supreme court released her, precisely because it was shown that she was used as a political pawn to show the government was doing something about the kidnappings.

No. You got your facts wrong. The Supreme Court released her because the Mexican DA violated her due process. She was not used as a pawn for anything. I, for one, am glad that she was released so certain DAs here learned a lesson and in the future this does not happen again. The guy who screwed this all up, by the way is in hot water now, and will probably go to jail. Still this does not make her innocent and even though she was rightfully released, her victims were left without justice. Not her fault though.

And she would have been released a lot earlier if loud mouthed Sarcozy had kept his mouth shut about the matter, but if anybody used Florence as a pawn, it was him, for his own popularity at home. He tried bullying, instead of diplomacy, exhibiting a huge disregard for another conuntry´s justice system and its times. He is the one to be blamed for that torturer not being released earlier.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
She's back in France, but at no point was it proven that she was innocent.

Because she was guilty.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 39):
her 60 years sentence was ridiculous.

Why? That´s what you get here for kidnapping, torture and accessory to murder.

I see no parallels between this case or the Amanda Knox case. If anything, Cassez was rightfully released and with the blessing of the Supreme Court of a country. I don´t think Knox got that. The opposite, it seems.

[Edited 2013-03-27 01:35:05]
 
smittyone
Posts: 1336
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:55 am

RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 44):
She is so guilty. I think she is guilty as sin.

I believe this too, but admit that it is only based on the most superficial data points since (we don't get to see the real evidence that goes in front of the jury).

Frankly I'm naturally inclined to believe that most people on trial are guilty which of course can come up to bite me in the ass from time to time.
 
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scbriml
Posts: 13230
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:20 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 33):
I do have a view of the canonisation of her however by much of the US media.

I bet nobody would think she's innocent if she weighed 250lbs and looked like the back-end of a bus.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
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casinterest
Posts: 5356
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting Pellegrine (Reply 44):
If the murder was committed by multiple people, one person cannot take the blame.

Sure, but who are you going to pin it on. Knox and boyfriend who were so stoned they don''t recall anything and called the cops , or the guy's who's semen was found in the victim, Hand Print on the wall with DNA and victim's blood , and load in the kamode who fled to Germany, that pins it on the other two?

The Police and the Prosecutios screwed up most of the other phyiscal evidence. From my point of view, whether the police are right about motives. Their theory doesn't line up with any of the other storeis told by the defendents or the physical evidence.

What i do wonder and remains to be seen is why the retrial is happening. My one thought on this is that the judge is going to grant retesting of the DNA for the prosecution. This is the one thing that was not allowed in the appeals case where the defense ripped apart the validity of he handling and testing of all the items.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 9853
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Amanda Knox Must Return To Italy

Wed Mar 27, 2013 3:38 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
Good looking, though.

She should do Playboy.

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