bristolflyer
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Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:24 pm

It occurred to me that most of the reasons against same sex marriage are based on religious views with people often quoting the bible. Are there any/many reasons why people are against same sex marriage that have nothing to do with religion?

Thanks for your (civilised) replies.
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Braybuddy
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:41 pm

Whatever floats your boat, I suppose, but as a gay man I'd run a mile from any man who asked me to marry him . . .   
 
CalebWilliams
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:51 pm

Quoting bristolflyer (Thread starter):
It occurred to me that most of the reasons against same sex marriage are based on religious views with people often quoting the bible.

I find this to be the ultimate fallacy of this line of reasoning. Those that are so strongly outspoken about same sex marriage often ignore other aspects of the Bible. Leviticus 18 and 20 and Deuteronomy all contain so called verse about how same sex marriage is sin, but yet other passages are often ignored. (See Deuteronomy 12–26.)

Deuteronomy 14 (New International Version):
These are the animals you may eat: the ox, the sheep, the goat, the deer, the gazelle, the roe deer, the wild goat, the ibex, the antelope and the mountain sheep ... camel, the rabbit or the hyrax.

Lamb? Venison? Anyone?

Quoting bristolflyer (Thread starter):
Are there any/many reasons why people are against same sex marriage that have nothing to do with religion?

I think those that do prefer traditional marriage on non-religious grounds are just those who are uncomfortable with the idea of two same sex partners cohabiting. It's a change thing, I think.
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Mir
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:08 pm

Here are a few:

1) The government shouldn't be in the marriage business at all.

Regardless of the sensibility of this philosophy, the fact remains that the government is in the marriage business, and as long as it is, equal protection under the law demands that gays be allowed to marry as well. So this argument doesn't really work.

2) The tax benefits that married couples get in essence punish single people, so we shouldn't be extending them to gays as well.

Likewise, one can't deny a certain segment of the population the same rights others have just because others feel slighted by it. So this doesn't work either.

3) Allowing gays to marry would represent an economic hit to the country, as more people would be eligible for reduced taxes by virtue of being married.

And while this may be true, that's the cost of doing business in a country where we have equal protection.

So none of these really work. But then again, there really is no justification to ban gay marriage at all.

-Mir
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falstaff
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:08 pm

Some people just don't like the idea of two people of the same sex getting married even if they don't care about religion.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 2):
Lamb? Venison? Anyone

Good stuff!

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
I'd run a mile from any man who asked me to marry him .

I avoid women that want to get married.
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CalebWilliams
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 4):

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 2):
Lamb? Venison? Anyone

Good stuff!

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
I'd run a mile from any man who asked me to marry him .

I avoid women that want to get married.

I probably haven't had lamb in a while, but venison is great.

Also, you don't really hear people get up in arms about man and woman that live together for a long time (maybe even marry) but have to kids? I'd like to see a protest: "Married? No children? SINNER!"   
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WestJet747
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:27 pm

I know a few non-religious people that aren't a fan of gays altogether just because they don't like the idea of a man having sex with a man. They find it "gross". But I should note that these people have never been outspoken about gay marriage, so I'm not sure if that counts towards the original question or not.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 2):
Lamb? Venison? Anyone?

Yes please! I had some fantastic lamb lollipop hors d'oeuvres at a networking event last week and have been craving ever since.

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
3) Allowing gays to marry would represent an economic hit to the country, as more people would be eligible for reduced taxes by virtue of being married.

And while this may be true, that's the cost of doing business in a country where we have equal protection.

Interestingly enough, the marriage business would actually go a long way to counteract the hit suffered by the tax reductions. Weddings are a massive expense. When same-sex marriage was legalized in the state of Washington last year, many in British Columbia were quite worried about the wedding industry there since quite a large portion of their business was based on gay couples crossing into Canada to get married.

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 5):
I'd like to see a protest: "Married? No children? SINNER!"

And god help the ones who have kids before getting married!!!   
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AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:37 pm

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 1):
as a gay man I'd run a mile from any man who asked me to marry him

You and me both! I don't have anything against it if two guys want to exchange vows for whatever reason, but you won't ever find me doing it.
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Klaus
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:08 pm

Gay people know from their own experience that different people can have fundamentally different preferences, simply by growing up being gay in a straight-dominted world.

But some straight are ignorant of that fact and adhere to the illusion that absolutely all people had to feel exactly alike and that variations could not exist.

This leads to the bizarre theory that gay people were "really" straight, but for some inexplicable reason acted against that presumed straight nature of theirs.

Despite the overwhelming implausibility of that false explanation, especially organized religions mostly stuck to it nevertheless.

This just gets more and more difficult with gay people no longer being mysteriously exotic objects of people's wild imaginations but increasingly just ordinary relatives, friends, neighbours and co-workers.

It's just a fact: Different people can and do in fact have different inclinations, and only acting against the one one actually happens to have would be "unnatural".

Discrimination advocates are simply ignoring a crucial bit of information and are constructing whole ideologies from that false idea.
 
AR385
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:28 pm

The ones I´ve heard:

1) Sex is for procreation, gays can´t procreate, therefore gay marriage is abnormal.

2) Sex between two people of the same gender is just gross.

3) It´s unnatural (no explanation given).

4) Gays are an embarrassement to all the straights. Now they have the gall to WANT to be married?

5) Gays are sexual predators, therefore can´t be near children, teenagers, or any other straight person for that matter.

6) Gay marriage will mean the destruction of the human race (A lot of people subscribe very openly to this line of thought. They can´t explain why, funnily enough)
 
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:29 pm

As has been pointed out. When you strip religion away, you are left with the honest answer:

"I think gays are icky and I don't like them."

You'd be amazed at the things that have been defended or opposed using religion. Slavery, denial of anesthesia to women in labor (even for C-sections), interracial marriage, women's suffrage, etc. etc. etc.
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Starbuk7
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:31 pm

Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

You have to allow people to marry their pets if that is what THEY want.

You need to provide for divorce in all cases which apparently has not happened in the states that have legalized the gay marriages already.

Everything that has happened is all knee jerk reactions to "rights" of individuals without being properly thought out by those that write the laws.
 
mt99
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

Black and Whites have been able to marry for decades; and Polygamist marriage has not happened yet. What makes you think that Gay Marriage would cause it?

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
You have to allow people to marry their pets if that is what THEY want.

Can your pets talk to make decisions? How would you know that you pet want to get married?

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):

You need to provide for divorce in all cases which apparently has not happened in the states that have legalized the gay marriages already.

What does this mean?

[Edited 2013-03-26 08:38:32]
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CalebWilliams
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:40 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 9):
1) Sex is for procreation, gays can´t procreate, therefore gay marriage is abnormal.

I'd say this is solely a religious argument. Genesis 1:28
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Mir
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

No, you don't. Marriage between two people is a completely different concept from marriage between multiple people.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
You have to allow people to marry their pets if that is what THEY want.

No, you don't. Marriage is between two consenting adults. A pet is not, and cannot be, a consenting adult.

-Mir
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WestJet747
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:52 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

But that IS a religious argument, which is not the point of this thread.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
You need to provide for divorce in all cases which apparently has not happened in the states that have legalized the gay marriages already.

What?

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 13):
I'd say this is solely a religious argument. Genesis 1:28

I have to disagree with you that it's solely a religious argument. I've heard people approach it with an exclusively biological mindset who believe that life only exists to multiply itself, and since gays can't procreate and grow the population, it is unnatural.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
When you strip religion away, you are left with the honest answer:

"I think gays are icky and I don't like them."

There's also the contingent out there who believe that since gays and lesbians can't procreate, they must recruit straights. Many fear homosexuals solely on the basis of their belief that they are a recruitment target for sexual acts they have no desire to perform. Simply not desiring something doesn't make it "icky".
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CalebWilliams
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
There's also the contingent out there who believe that since gays and lesbians can't procreate, they must recruit straights. Many fear homosexuals solely on the basis of their belief that they are a recruitment target for sexual acts they have no desire to perform. Simply not desiring something doesn't make it "icky".

Was that why that gay guy was hitting on me? And here I thought I was attractive. Dang.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 17):
Was that why that gay guy was hitting on me?

There are people out there who believe that recruitment is a core principle of «The Gay Agenda».
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TheCol
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 12):
and Polygamist marriage has not happened yet. What makes you think that Gay Marriage would cause it?

I doubt we'll see Polygamy legalized in the West. The link to sexual and psychological abuse has been well established by authorities in the US and Canada, and successfully proven in court.
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seb146
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:14 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 6):
I know a few non-religious people that aren't a fan of gays altogether just because they don't like the idea of a man having sex with a man.

I don't like the idea of a woman having sex with a woman. But, as long as I don't have to see it, I don't care.

Amazingly, people who think male/male sex is disgusting also think that female/female sex is just fine. That one makes my head hurt.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
Amazingly, people who think male/male sex is disgusting also think that female/female sex is just fine. That one makes my head hurt.

When you think of it in terms of recruitment, it makes perfect sense. If the women tried to recruit the men into having sex with them, it would simply be 'the more the merrier'.
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na
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:28 pm

My basic opinion is that people should be left alone with what they think is their sexual way unless it means harm to anyone. No hatred here against homosexuals.

But: the idea of marriage and the underlying sense of it is to tie man and woman closer together to produce kids.
Gays cant produce kids (well, technically they can of cause) and therefore do nothing to guarantee that the human race exists any longer. Therefore I am against marriage of same sex couples. Why should law and society support something that is widely believed to be a genetic defect without any positive aspect for the future of mankind?

That said, I anyway do think that only marriages that produce kids should be allowed to enjoy tax reductions in the long term. Marriages not producing kids for whatever reason should loose at least part of their their fiscal benefits after 15 years or so. Marriage shouldnt be allowed to be perverted into a tax-evasion model because that is only discriminating singles.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:30 pm

President François Hollande is applying his platform promise of "marriage for all" currently, while himself not believing in marriage and asking for countries he visits to accommodate his partner.

This to say that just because it doesn't concern you doesn't mean you are legitimate in opposing it.

Now, the right-wing opposition is against it, but officially not for religious reasons, because invoking religion would backfire. Last time it happened was in 1997 when deputy Christine Boutin, a devout catholic, brandished her bible in the National Assembly, she was booed and expelled and it demonstrated the conservatism of the right (conservatism being an insult similar to "liberal" in the US). She was against civil pacts aimed at gays but open for all, now she says those pacts are good and enough, marriage is only for a man and a woman. She even said that LGBT can marry, just do it with someone of the opposite sex !

Arguments are that "it's not natural" and that "children should have a father and a mother". Of course marriage itself is not natural but as long as they appear to do their jobs of opponents, who cares ? There is also the argument that children with two mothers/fathers will be victimized. Then they ask for a referendum. But they didn't do any when in power, even when 3 millions people were protesting in the streets.

I'm already jubilating at the thought of seeing them all admit, in 3-4 years, that they were wrong and now support the law.
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DocLightning
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
Many fear homosexuals solely on the basis of their belief that they are a recruitment target for sexual acts they have no desire to perform. Simply not desiring something doesn't make it "icky".

If you *fear* me based on the idea that I might convince or "recruit" you to do something that you genuinely don't want to do, then you must think what I do is pretty "icky."

If you were actually confident that nothing I could say or do would convince you to turn gay, you wouldn't have such a fear.

So I lump that argument in with general animus.
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vikkyvik
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
Then you need to allow the Polygamists to legally have more than one wife.

Have at it, I say!

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):

You have to allow people to marry their pets if that is what THEY want.

If you and your dog BOTH consent to getting married, I don't have a problem with that. Of course, your dog is not considered an adult, so....

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
You need to provide for divorce in all cases which apparently has not happened in the states that have legalized the gay marriages already.

I don't understand this one. Is divorce illegal in some states?

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 11):
Everything that has happened is all knee jerk reactions to "rights" of individuals without being properly thought out by those that write the laws.

Based on that argument, marriage should have never been legal in the first place.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
Amazingly, people who think male/male sex is disgusting also think that female/female sex is just fine. That one makes my head hurt.

It's not amazing. There's probably some genetic reason for it somewhere along the line. But probably, it's the fact that I'm not attracted whatsoever to a naked male body, but I am to a naked female body.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:40 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 24):
then you must think what I do is pretty "icky."

Do you not have sex with women because you have neither any erotic or romantic attraction to them, or is it because you think women are "icky"? For me, it's the former, not the latter.
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Aesma
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:45 pm

Quoting na (Reply 22):
But: the idea of marriage and the underlying sense of it is to tie man and woman closer together to produce kids.
Gays cant produce kids (well, technically they can of cause) and therefore do nothing to guarantee that the human race exists any longer. Therefore I am against marriage of same sex couples. Why should law and society support something that is widely believed to be a genetic defect without any positive aspect for the future of mankind?

I'd say having less than two kids is actually helping humanity, in the current situation. But LGBT marrying often see marriage as a way to start a family, including kids, obtained one way or another (my preference would be 2 men and 2 women having children "together", but that's not always possible), so your fear is unjustified.
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romeobravo
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:46 pm

There's actually no reason for the state to be involved in marriage at all. Absolutely no reason.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 28):
There's actually no reason for the state to be involved in marriage at all.

Marriage has legal ramifications. The state needs to be involved to legitimize a marriage simply by default, to give the union legal standing.
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Mir
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 4:49 pm

Quoting na (Reply 22):
Gays cant produce kids (well, technically they can of cause) and therefore do nothing to guarantee that the human race exists any longer. Therefore I am against marriage of same sex couples.

May I assume that you are also against the marriage of elderly couples or heterosexual couples that cannot, for one reason or another, have children?

Quoting na (Reply 22):
Why should law and society support something that is widely believed to be a genetic defect without any positive aspect for the future of mankind?

Is it widely believed to be a genetic defect, though? I certainly don't believe it to be a defect - it's a trait, nothing more. A defect is something that adversely affects your ability to live your life - I doubt there'd be very many gay people who would say that being gay adversely affects their ability to live their lives. Except perhaps the discrimination it brings to them, but that's the fault of others, not themselves.

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mt99
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:01 pm

Quoting na (Reply 22):
But: the idea of marriage and the underlying sense of it is to tie man and woman closer together to produce kids.
Gays cant produce kids (well, technically they can of cause) and therefore do nothing to guarantee that the human race exists any longer. Therefore I am against marriage of same sex couples. Why should law and society support something that is widely believed to be a genetic defect without any positive aspect for the future of mankind?

OK fine - so are you OK with Civil Unions? or just 2 guys living together for their entire life. In neither of these cases would children be produced.

Should there be a law demanding reproduction from everyone?
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mt99
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting na (Reply 22):
Why should law and society support something that is widely believed to be a genetic defect without any positive aspect for the future of mankind?

You are German huh -.
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CalebWilliams
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting na (Reply 22):
But: the idea of marriage and the underlying sense of it is to tie man and woman closer together to produce kids.

It is for some, yes.

Quoting na (Reply 22):
Gays cant produce kids (well, technically they can of cause) and therefore do nothing to guarantee that the human race exists any longer. Therefore I am against marriage of same sex couples. Why should law and society support something that is widely believed to be a genetic defect without any positive aspect for the future of mankind?

Widely believed by whom exactly? The only people I've ever heard spout off such ridiculousness is a few people in the American far-right (see legitimate rape, Tea Party, etc.).

This line of logic completely ignores the innate good humans can do for society without fathering/mothering children. By this line of logic, a Catholic priest has no "positive aspect to the future of mankind" because he "cannot" father children (not to mention celibate clergy in other faiths).

For instance I have a married couple in my family with no children. I would argue they have done very much to create a "positive aspect for the future of mankind" by creating a positive, welcoming household, helping with us kids (both my siblings/cousins), working, paying taxes, meeting people and making their lives better. Does it matter whether this is a same sex couple or an opposite sex couple? I think not.
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romeobravo
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:09 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
Marriage has legal ramifications. The state needs to be involved to legitimize a marriage simply by default, to give the union legal standing.

It really doesn't. All a marriage is is a contract, the state only needs to know if it's breached.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:17 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 34):
All a marriage is is a contract, the state only needs to know if it's breached.

The state must first acknowledge what types of contracts are legal, before ruling on if there's a breach to the contract. There cannot be a breach to a contract which isn't enforceable.
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Aesma
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:18 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 28):
There's actually no reason for the state to be involved in marriage at all. Absolutely no reason.

The reason is social engineering.
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romeobravo
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
The state must first acknowledge what types of contracts are legal, before ruling on if there's a breach to the contract. There cannot be a breach to a contract which isn't enforceable.

I've signed a lot of contracts recently without the state getting involved.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:26 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 37):
I've signed a lot of contracts recently without the state getting involved.

So what? If the state wasn't there prior to back their validity in law, you probably wouldn't find the other party willing to sign the contract with you. For instance, if oral contracts weren't valid in your jurisdiction, you'd find few who would willingly enter into an oral contract with you for much of any value, if any.
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romeobravo
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:31 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
So what? If the state wasn't there prior to back their validity in law, you probably wouldn't find the other party willing to sign the contract with you. For instance, if oral contracts weren't valid in your jurisdiction, you'd find few who would willingly enter into an oral contract with you for much of any value, if any.

That's ok, the state i live in accepts written contracts.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:41 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 37):
I've signed a lot of contracts recently without the state getting involved.
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 39):
the state i live in accepts written contracts.

So the state was involved then. Glad that's clear to you now.  
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romeobravo
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 40):
So the state was involved then. Glad that's clear to you now.


Ok, but my point was the state needn't be involved in marriage, i didn't say the state shouldn't be involved in enforcing contracts.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:51 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 4):
Some people just don't like the idea of two people of the same sex getting married even if they don't care about religion.

Bingo, that's pretty much my objection in a nutshell, I couldn't give a crap about religion, I have no problem with gay people, I just don't like the idea of same sex marriages, that's it.

It's also a door opener, if you allow same sex then you should also allow plural marriage, yet we don't like that one do we?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 19):
I doubt we'll see Polygamy legalized in the West.

In countries like the US people have freedom of religion, in some religions polygamy is practised, so I bet one day the idea of plural marriage will be challenged.

In the US polygamy got a bad rap due to crazy old Mormons marrying teenagers.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:52 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 41):
i didn't say the state shouldn't be involved in enforcing contracts.

Roll back several posts to the marriage is a contract bit.

Now let's return to Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage instead of RomeoBravo Learns About Law.
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mt99
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 5:58 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
, I just don't like the idea of same sex marriages, that's it.

But why? Verbalize it.. State clearly - why this is. This is your chance.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
It's also a door opener, if you allow same sex then you should also allow plural marriage, yet we don't like that one do we?

Was interracial marriage a "door opener"?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
o I bet one day the idea of plural marriage will be challenged.

That is fine. That is a completely different fight than the one that is going on now. When its time for it to be decided, then we can discuss it.

The slippery slope argument has always been bogus,.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
In the US polygamy got a bad rap due to crazy old Mormons marrying teenagers.

So you think polygamy is a good thing?
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vikkyvik
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 29):
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 28):
There's actually no reason for the state to be involved in marriage at all.

Marriage has legal ramifications. The state needs to be involved to legitimize a marriage simply by default, to give the union legal standing.

I think the point is that there's no reason for marriages to be legislated and recorded by the state. There's no reason to file for a marriage license, etc., and have it recognized as anything beyond a contract. I certainly don't file a copy with my local government of every contract I sign. That doesn't mean they're not enforceable.

If two people want to sign a contract between them, then go for it. They don't need state sanction to do so. The way I see it, there's no reason that a contract between two people would be unenforceable, whether they're male-female, male-male, or female-female, EXCEPT for the fact that the state doesn't recognize same-sex marriage.

But hey, I'm not a lawyer.
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mt99
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:13 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 45):
I think the point is that there's no reason for marriages to be legislated and recorded by the state

How else would the state know that you are eligible for marriage benefits?
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Ken777
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting CalebWilliams (Reply 5):
"Married? No children? SINNER!"

How many Justices on the Supreme Court are married and have children?

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 6):

I know a few non-religious people that aren't a fan of gays altogether just because they don't like the idea of a man having sex with a man. They find it "gross".

Yet when it comes to two women having sex some of those same people will ask "Can I watch?" "I'll pay"

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 28):


There's actually no reason for the state to be involved in marriage at all. Absolutely no reason.

There are many reasons for the government to be involved in marriage - starting with the reality that some people (gay or straight) want to have a civil ceremony when they get married - not a church ceremony.

There is also a need to have core laws on marriage as there are non-religious issues to be addressed. Start with the rights of a spouse in various medical situations, from visiting to when to accept a medical recommendation to "pull the plug". My wife has those rights for me (as I have for her) and I want those legal rights to be available to her. Should a gay person have fewer rights? It is the responsibility of the government to ensure they do,

BTW, the government also needs to have established the infrastructure for divorce of gay couples, just like they have for straight marriage.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 31):
Should there be a law demanding reproduction from everyone?

There you go - if marriage is only to generate more babies then let's require that every married couple have 2 or 3.

That does make life difficult for those who cannot have children for one medical condition or another - should they be allowed to get married?

I see little difference in today's arguments against equal rights for gays as I saw half a century ago in those arguments against people of color having equal rights. Or a century ago when women didn't have the equal rights when it came to voting.
 
TheCol
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 42):
so I bet one day the idea of plural marriage will be challenged.

It was already challenged in Canada and upheld. If they appeal, the current laws will likely be upheld again. The RCMP and Crown Counsel have been on a crusade against the Polygamist community in BC for over a decade.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
aloges
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RE: Non-religious Reasons To Oppose Same Sex Marriage

Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 16):
There's also the contingent out there who believe that since gays and lesbians can't procreate, they must recruit straights. Many fear homosexuals solely on the basis of their belief that they are a recruitment target for sexual acts they have no desire to perform.

People who believe that they could somehow be "converted" to homosexuality have a lot to explain to themselves; perhaps that they are, in fact, bisexual to some degree. But instead of facing the truth, so many of them try to get out of that conundrum by demonising that part of their psyche, and by extension everything else that doesn't conform to the heterosexual norm. It's incomprehensible.
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