ozglobal
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Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:11 pm

Humans can get so immersed in a process, or hide behind it for not wanting to make a decision, that they end up doing crazy things. This usually happens to be me on visits to Japan, where I'm often told to as a J class passenger to join the J class queue, even though there are ten people waiting and ZERO in the Y class queue....

This one form the UK: picture says a 1000 words: 'no parking' markings in 50cm wide laneway....   



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-22158829


When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:12 pm

You should come to México....you would be surprised....

TRB
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moo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:22 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):

Humans can get so immersed in a process, or hide behind it for not wanting to make a decision, that they end up doing crazy things.

And yet if you read the article it does say that the council had had complaints about inappropriate parking in back alleys, and had instructed the double yellows to be painted as a response - yes, this is a little ridiculous, but the company was tasked with doing something, and they did it.

Imagine what the response would have been if every alley but this one had been double yellowed, and an ambulance or fire appliance couldn't get access (I don't mean drive down it) due to a stupidly parked vehicle? The same line painting company would have been shot for not carrying out their contract to the letter.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:47 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 2):
Imagine what the response would have been if every alley but this one had been double yellowed, and an ambulance or fire appliance couldn't get access (I don't mean drive down it) due to a stupidly parked vehicle? The same line painting company would have been shot for not carrying out their contract to the letter.

I think you've missed the point - this alleyway was too narrow to get a car down, let alone an ambulance / fire engine. There was no chance of anyone ever parking down there anyway!
 
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moo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:52 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 3):
I think you've missed the point - this alleyway was too narrow to get a car down, let alone an ambulance / fire engine. There was no chance of anyone ever parking down there anyway!

I think you didn't read my post - I specifically said "an ambulance or fire appliance couldn't get access (I don't mean drive down it) due to a stupidly parked vehicle?

Access could be as simple as trying to wheel an ambulance bed, or other equipment, and a vehicle doesn't necessarily mean a "car" - motorcycles and mobility scooters are also subject to double yellow restrictions!
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 4):
I think you didn't read my post - I specifically said "an ambulance or fire appliance couldn't get access (I don't mean drive down it) due to a stupidly parked vehicle?

but why would you need to paint double yellow lines down an alley, to stop someone parking across the entrance to it? You don't see double yellow lines painted throughout the supermarket to stop someone parking outside the entrance. A simple yellow line across the entrance to the alley would suffice.
 
offloaded
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:55 pm

My personal favourite in Portugal is the ticket machine. They're everywhere: post office, telecom, tax office, clinics, Customs, IMTT (driver/vehicles) etc. Even if there isn't a soul in the room, they still want you to take a ticket. Its almost as though at the end of the day they need to show the boss how many people they served that day.
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
bhill
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:07 pm

You may not be able to drive down it, but what about utilities under it that workers might need access to? Or folks that park RIGHT OUT SIDE THE STORE in plainly marked NO PARKING zones while thier passengers go shopping!!!! GRRRR...

"Stupid is as stupid does...."
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romeobravo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:11 pm

Might be able to get a motorbike down there...
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:20 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 6):
Even if there isn't a soul in the room, they still want you to take a ticket.

It's like this in Norway as well.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 9):
It's like this in Norway as well.

Also in Romania until the machines break. Then, no one fixes them, so goodbye "organized" queueing...
 
ALTF4
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 7:16 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 5):
but why would you need to paint double yellow lines down an alley, to stop someone parking across the entrance to it? You don't see double yellow lines painted throughout the supermarket to stop someone parking outside the entrance. A simple yellow line across the entrance to the alley would suffice.

I think you're still missing his point. The lines apply to motorcycles, which might well park in the alley. Those could block access for an ambulance crew bringing a stretcher. At least, that is what I understood his point to be.
The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 9:20 pm

Quoting offloaded (Reply 6):
Its almost as though at the end of the day they need to show the boss how many people they served that day.

They may very well use the ticket numbers as an easy way to track the volume of service.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:06 pm

Just seen this on the news, looks daft but really sure what the issue is?

Fred
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fr8mech
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:20 am

Moving on a little bit...let me ask the runners in the group here this question about mindlessly following a process.

When I run in an organized race, I always seem to hesitate when I come to the first few light controlled intersections if the light is red. Even though there are barricades manned by police officers blocking cross traffic. Any other runner get this mental hesitation about entering the intersection against the light?

It's like a Pavlovian response...red light=stop.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:12 am

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 11):
I think you're still missing his point. The lines apply to motorcycles, which might well park in the alley. Those could block access for an ambulance crew bringing a stretcher. At least, that is what I understood his point to be.

but this isn't a road, so parking a motorcycle there would be illegal anyway. Therefore the yellow lines are redundant, and that is the point.
 
aloges
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:32 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
Any other runner get this mental hesitation about entering the intersection against the light?

I don't run, but I imagine that others, too, consider pedestrian traffic lights little more than well-meant advice; at least the ones they know very well.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
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moo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:59 am

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 15):
but this isn't a road, so parking a motorcycle there would be illegal anyway.

Is it? I know its illegal to cause an obstruction (be it with a vehicle, mobility scooter, bins or anything else), but I've never seen anything in the Highway Code which says its unlawful to park off the road...

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 15):
Therefore the yellow lines are redundant, and that is the point.

However, regardless of what is or is not lawful in this case, the council has had a lot of reports of cars being parked in these alleyways, so a gentle reminder in the form of double yellow lines (which are unambiguous and very obvious) can certainly be argued as being very far from "redundant".

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 11):
I think you're still missing his point. The lines apply to motorcycles, which might well park in the alley. Those could block access for an ambulance crew bringing a stretcher. At least, that is what I understood his point to be.

Yup, my point exactly.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:09 am

Yesterday, I had a day-long introduction to all departments of my institute.

I've studied/worked there since 2007.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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moo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:22 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 18):
Yesterday, I had a day-long introduction to all departments of my institute.

A couple of years ago I was tasked with integrating access to the UK "Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency" driver license database into our in-house app.

The spec from the DVLA for their "web service" said XML. It wasn't, because it had to be character position perfect otherwise the "web service" threw it out - so no errant white space or comments.

The connection to the web service was "xml file transfered over SFTP using pre-arranged certificates". Oh, and it had to be over a "dedicated leased line" and not over the internet. Which raised the cost by several thousand a year.

Someone, somewhere said "make it secure", and then someone else said "what if the encryption is broken?! Better make it a dedicated line!", and someone else said "lets make it XML!" - and all of those things made it into the final service spec somehow.

Ridiculous.
 
offloaded
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:27 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):

I'm not a runner but I do cycle and do quite a lot of X-country (BTT-bicicleta todo terano as they call it here) and even on the organised events where we cross roads from time to time, unless I can clearly see a marshall or police standing to block traffic, I'll slow right down until I can see nothing is coming. On one of our events last year the guy in front of me didn't, he just blasted through a stop sign assuming, as with the other roads we had passed, it was blocked off. It wasn't and he nailed a car side on. He was ok... and I moved up a place.  
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
RussianJet
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:17 pm

Signs merely indicating no parking across the ends of the lane, and signs indicating that the lane isn't suitable for vehicles (yes, some people probably are stupid to try and go down there otherwise) would be more than adequate. No need for lines.
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moo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:32 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):
Signs merely indicating no parking across the ends of the lane

I can't see a suitable highways traffic sign for that, and councils cannot easily create their own as its not their place to do so.

They could install "no parking at any time" signs in the alleyway itself, but they would have to install several of them.

Also, should the council have to bear the cost of a few thousand more signs, and the added expense of installing them? Lines are easier.

And anyway, if we are talking about installing something, be it signs or lines or whatever ... then we are *still* talking about installing something! So why not lines? Simple, obvious, unambiguous and takes less time and money to do so, harder to vandalise etc etc.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 21):
and signs indicating that the lane isn't suitable for vehicles (yes, some people probably are stupid to try and go down there otherwise)

But its unlikely that that would prevent mobility scooters and bikes being parked down there.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:45 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 22):
I can't see a suitable highways traffic sign for that, and councils cannot easily create their own as its not their place to do so.

I say signs, but road markings I include in that. Zig-zag lines for example, and no parking/no entry signs situated at the entrance.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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moo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:51 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 23):
I say signs, but road markings I include in that. Zig-zag lines for example, and no parking/no entry signs situated at the entrance.

Unless they are on the road itself, they do not apply to the road (obviously that doesn't include no entry signs, but a lot of things we are talking about here are not covered by no entry signs).
 
AM744
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:15 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Thread starter):
Humans can get so immersed in a process, or hide behind it for not wanting to make a decision, that they end up doing crazy things.


I'd rather have 'crazy' enforced processes than chaos. The former is funny, the latter is painful.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:20 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 24):
Unless they are on the road itself, they do not apply to the road (obviously that doesn't include no entry signs, but a lot of things we are talking about here are not covered by no entry signs).

Sure, but clearly a no entry and no parking sign could be situated on the lane itself, but close to the end of it where it is clearly visible from the main road, and of course road markings on the main road in front of the lane entrance could prevent parking along the entrance itself.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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moo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:30 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 26):
Sure, but clearly a no entry and no parking sign could be situated on the lane itself, but close to the end of it where it is clearly visible from the main road, and of course road markings on the main road in front of the lane entrance could prevent parking along the entrance itself.

Thats an awful lot of bother to go to, and includes installation of multiple signs and road markings, would it be worth it when double yellows solve the problem anyway?

And anyway, vehicular access may be allowed along the alleyway (in this case it would be limited to mobility scooters and motorcycles), so a no entry sign might have negative effects. If no access is required, then simple bollards at either end solves the issue completely.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:02 pm

Quoting moo (Reply 27):
Thats an awful lot of bother to go to, and includes installation of multiple signs and road markings, would it be worth it when double yellows solve the problem anyway?

Maybe.  

It would just look a lot less silly.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
SoJo
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RE: Mindlessly "Following The Process"

Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:44 pm

Here we have the latest episode of one liners (or four in this case)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-22338210

Duh! It's unbelievable   
RAF Abingdon 1967. I met Beverley from Blackburn. Fantastic!

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