ROSWELL41
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Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:47 am

As I predicted in December, no gun control would pass on the federal level. Today, the so called 'universal' background check bill failed to garner the 60 votes required for passage. Despite the President's angry remarks this afternoon, this should quell the immediate gun control / 2nd Amendment assault at the federal level. I believe the President is sincere that he will try again at a later date. Here's an article covering the aforementioned: http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/2...background-checks-on-gun-purchases
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:54 am

It's sad that this happened, I don't see any problems with what Obama wanted to do, most other 1st world countries have similar checks prior to someone purchasing a weapon.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:01 am

Gabby Giffords' op-ed for the New York Times:

A Senate in the Gun Lobby’s Grip

Like 90% of Americans, I also approved of expanding the background checks to sales at gun shows and over the internet. If we're going to require background checks, then let's do it and not be namby-pamby about it.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:25 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
Like 90% of Americans, I also approved of expanding the background checks to sales at gun shows and over the internet. If we're going to require background checks, then let's do it and not be namby-pamby about it.

Which goes to show you know nothing other than what the media spoon feeds you. Internet sales, legally, must go thru an FFL, which, thus requires the use of form 4473, which is the NICS background check. The gunshow loophole is nothing as such, it's a private sale between private parties of the same state. Any sales from a person of one state to another is illegal.

Start enforcing the laws on the books before you make more.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Mir
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:28 am

A shameful day for the country. The only people who should be happy about this are people who want a gun but couldn't pass a background check, and it's not rocket science to figure out what sort of people fall into that category. The inmates are truly running the asylum.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:28 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Which goes to show you know nothing other than what the media spoon feeds you.

I stopped reading what you wrote after this wholly unnecessary personal slam.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:31 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 5):
I stopped reading what you wrote after this wholly unnecessary personal slam.

It's not a personal attack in the least bit, just the sad truth about the state of affairs in this country. People would rather be spoon fed everything rather than looking it up themselves.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Mir
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:35 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Any sales from a person of one state to another is illegal.

Nice theory, but how is the seller to know that the buyer is from the same state?

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:35 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 6):
People would rather be spoon fed everything rather than looking it up themselves.

Of course it was a personal slam. If you wanted to educate instead of denigrate, the sentence would have never appeared in your post.

Now, that said, like most Americans, I don't sit down and read the text of every bill before Congress. We pull our information from varied sources. If you had a correction to what I typed, and wanted to inform, you had the opportunity to do so without the flame.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:37 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 2):
Like 90% of Americans, I also approved of expanding the background checks to sales at gun shows and over the internet. If we're going to require background checks, then let's do it and not be namby-pamby about it.

But that is not all the bill said. If that was all it was, I could have also supported it. But it includes budget items, establishes a new bureaucracy, compliance reporting and punishment on the states, etc. Read it. A good example of how something that should be very simple gets messed up when you give it to Washington to try to manage.

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-113s649pcs/pdf/BILLS-113s649pcs.pdf

This bill should have fit on one or two pages, and no budget or bureaucracy mandated.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:38 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
Nice theory, but how is the seller to know that the buyer is from the same state?

Photo ID? If I were selling a gun private party, I would at a minimum require to see their driver's license and record it for my records. But hey, if as a seller you just want to sell and take the felony, be my guest, do it how you want.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Cadet985
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:40 am

[rant] The vast majority of US Senators are nothing but a**holes who care nothing about their constituents, but more about their jobs. 80%-90% of Americans support a bill - that had bipartisan support - and it still gets shot down! Today, I will not echo the words of a Lee Greenwood song because right now, I am damned sure NOT proud to be an American, because our politicians care more about their jobs then they do about safety. This was a common sense measure that had bipartisan support, and still gets voted down. I feel as livid as President Obama sounded. [/rant]

Marc
 
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pvjin
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:43 am

Too bad, I guess big amount of Americans then see the right for any lunatic to carry a weapon as one of the basic freedoms in their country.

I'm glad there's big ocean between this madness and the civilization we have here.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
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Dreadnought
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:47 am

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 11):
I am damned sure NOT proud to be an American, because our politicians care more about their jobs then they do about safety.

Just curious - I haven't checked myself. But did proponents of the bill specify any recent murder/rampage that this bill would have prevented, had the Bill been in effect? Would it have prevented Sandy Hook or G Gifford's shooting? Just asking.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:50 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Just curious - I haven't checked myself. But did proponents of the bill specify any recent murder/rampage that this bill would have prevented, had the Bill been in effect? Would it have prevented Sandy Hook or G Gifford's shooting? Just asking.

They can't, because it wouldn't have. Its nothing more than a feel good attempt to politically capitalize on the murder of a bunch of children. It's a flat out attempt to move towards some idealistic world where gun control means less crime, which is not going to be the case.

-DiamondFlyer
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AeroWesty
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:52 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
But it includes budget items, establishes a new bureaucracy, compliance reporting and punishment on the states, etc. Read it.

Thanks for the link. I've no problem with anything in the bill, and my opinion has not changed. If anything, it has only reinforced my support for expanded gun regulation, seeing how easily it may be enacted.
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Mir
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:55 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 10):
Photo ID?

Which are, of course, impossible to forge.  
Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 10):
If I were selling a gun private party, I would at a minimum require to see their driver's license and record it for my records. But hey, if as a seller you just want to sell and take the felony, be my guest, do it how you want.

That's the problem: they wouldn't take the felony. The buyer shows a fake ID (which I'd venture to say that 25% of college students have), and then the seller is off the hook - they had no reason to know the buyer had several previous assault convictions. Or the seller can just tell the police that he checked the buyer's ID but didn't write it down - how are they to prove otherwise?

Whereas if a background check had to be done, that trick wouldn't work and the seller would know not to sell the gun. How does that not make sense?

-Mir
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sccutler
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:58 am

The legislation was meaningless tripe, another attempt at the relentless increase in federal government power.
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DiamondFlyer
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:59 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
Whereas if a background check had to be done, that trick wouldn't work and the seller would know not to sell the gun. How does that not make sense?

Because no one has ever stolen an identity? You steal someone's drivers license, get it remade, put your picture onto it, and viola, pass a NICS check using their information. Quite simply, criminals who want guns are going to get them. More legislation isn't going to fix a darn thing. Prosecuting all gun crimes to the fullest extend of the law is where things need to be started.

-DiamondFlyer
From my cold, dead hands
 
Mir
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:07 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer,reply=18Because no one has ever stolen an identity?][/quote]

Sure, it's happened. But it's a hell of a lot more difficult than to just go pick up a fake ID for $5.

[quote=DiamondFlyer
(Reply 18):
Prosecuting all gun crimes to the fullest extend of the law is where things need to be started.

I'll start taking that idea seriously when the NRA stops neutering the enforcement mechanisms through budget cuts and other legislative restrictions. Until then, it's nothing but a distracting talking point.

-Mir
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seb146
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:12 am

Quoting roswell41 (Thread starter):
the so called 'universal' background check bill failed to garner the 60 votes required for passage.

A majority of Senators voted in favor of it, but it still did not pass. What a stupid system. The right-wing cries about how they are the victims because they are not in control. This sure looks like they are in control! Besides, 90% of Americans wanted this bill. 90 EFFIN PER CENT!! That 40+ Senators would vote for what NRA wants instead of what the MAJORITY of Americans want just shows what a broken system we have.

My advice: If they have huge amounts of money in their "war chest" don't vote for them! I don't care what letter they have behind their name. If NRA or big oil or big pharma or Koch Bros. or which ever industry supports them, they need to be ousted. And now! That is how we do revolution in this country. Not with guns and Molotov cocktails, but with votes.
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pvjin
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:14 am

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 18):
Quite simply, criminals who want guns are going to get them.

Many of the people who have committed mass shootings and other such things in the US had no previous criminal history and no contacts to people who sell illegal guns, for those this kind of thing would make it significantly harder to get a gun.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
L-188
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:37 am

Thank god this piece of legislation did not pass.

It was simply a pathetic attempt by the Democrats to remove another part of the consitution and never should have gotten as far as it did.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Which goes to show you know nothing other than what the media spoon feeds you. Internet sales, legally, must go thru an FFL, which, thus requires the use of form 4473, which is the NICS background check.

Yup, the alleged gun-show loophole is a myth. It has never existed, it is only a talking point used by uniformed anti-gun nuts to try and destroy our freedoms. But the problem is that too many people are ignorant of firearms, how to use them and what they are for. I see that problem as only getting worse as people, especially those is less free countries such as Great Britian and Australia get farther away from the change that took away their freedoms and more used to the lack thereof.

They are simply not willing to educate themselves.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9):
But that is not all the bill said. If that was all it was, I could have also supported it. But it includes budget items, establishes a new bureaucracy, compliance reporting and punishment on the states, etc. Read it. A good example of how something that should be very simple gets messed up when you give it to Washington to try to manage.

Of course many of those people who didn't read the specifics of this bill where also the same people who didn't mind the fact that Pelosi would let us read the health care act to find out what was in it until after it passed.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 11):
I am damned sure NOT proud to be an American,

You are more then welcome to go at any time to some place more fitting for your lack of faith in the US.

Frankly I lack faith in the administration, I don't make the mistake of calling that the US.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 11):
This was a common sense measure

No it wasn't. It took away one of the core civil rights that we have. You disagreeing with that right is right up there with George Wallace, a democrat governor standing in the schoolhouse door because he didn't believe in the right of education either.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
. This sure looks like they are in control! Besides, 90% of Americans wanted this bill. 90 EFFIN PER CENT!!

I have no faith in that statistic and frankly suspect that the poll was cooked, meaning that the questions where staged to cause the outcome. It is very common if partisan polling to do that. And since most of the polling operations are based out of the east coast I have my doubts on their willingness to be impartial.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
That 40+ Senators would vote for what NRA

They voted for freedom, they voted for common sense, they voted for yours and mine civil rights. You many not choose to exercise that right but I do.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
If NRA or big oil or big pharma or Koch Bros. or which ever industry supports them, they need to be ousted.

Funny how you didn't list Bloombergs anti-gun group, Giffords, Anti-gun group, The super-pac that just formed from the remnants of Obummers campaign machine, Moveon.org or any other liberal or progressive hate group up to and including the democratic party itself.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
seb146
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:55 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
They voted for freedom, they voted for common sense, they voted for yours and mine civil rights

Like the right to know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the person carrying that weapon has no criminal history or history of mental disorder? Like that history?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
It is very common if partisan polling to do that

Unless FOX does the poll. Then, it is patriotic. Funny how Pew is a reputable polling company. Unless the facts skew to the "liberal" side. Then, they are made up.


Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
Funny how you didn't list

And you conveniently forgot the part where I said:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
I don't care what letter they have behind their name.

I know it bothers you that multi-national corporations contribute to the right-wing. That "bothering you" feeling is called conscience. But, also, look at the numbers. How much did the big corporations contribute to right-wing campaigns vs. left-wing campaigns and look at how many total Americans voted right-wing vs. left wing.

I stand by my original statement:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 20):
I don't care what letter they have behind their name.
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TheCommodore
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:58 am

Quoting sccutler (Reply 17):
The legislation was meaningless tripe, another attempt at the relentless increase in federal government power.

Seems like your in the !0% minority there !

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
I see that problem as only getting worse as people, especially those is less free countries such as Great Britian and Australia get farther away from the change that took away their freedoms and more used to the lack thereof.

Don't you dare compare Australia to the US regarding lack of freedoms. We live a VERY peaceful nation, compared to you, with out ANY doubt. What is it again, 32,000 die a year from gun related deaths  Wow!  Wow!  Wow!

Well, you go right on singing the same o'l tune, because you are on the slippery sloop of loosing far more than we ever will because your not willing to change !

Believe me L-188, there is absoulty NO problem here in Australia or Great Britain for that matter, at least not when we see our nightly news, and whats occurring in the US.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
They are simply not willing to educate themselves.

After reading this, Ive never laughed so loud in my life.               

Mate, that's what the international Press is saying about Americans, NOT Australians.   
“At first, they'll only dislike what you say, but the more correct you start sounding the more they'll dislike you.”
 
jpetekyxmd80
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:14 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):

It was simply a pathetic attempt by the Democrats to remove another part of the consitution

Um, which part would that be.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):

You are more then welcome to go at any time to some place more fitting for your lack of faith in the US.

Where did you get these talking points, Mindless-Cliches-R-US?

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):

You are more then welcome to go at any time to some place more fitting for your lack of faith in the US.

Coming from an outspoken proponent of the Alaskan separatist movement your hypocritical quasi-patriotism is the most hilariously ironic thing that i routinely run into on the internet. Thanks for the laugh.

[Edited 2013-04-17 23:16:24]
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L-188
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:29 am

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 25):
Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
You are more then welcome to go at any time to some place more fitting for your lack of faith in the US.

Where did you get these talking points, Mindless-Cliches-R-US

Actually that is from Star Wars.

Richard LeParmentier, aka Admiral Motti passed away today.

No Mr. Stormtrooper, these are not the firearms you are looking for.

[Edited 2013-04-17 23:32:39]
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:35 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
especially those is less free countries such as Great Britian and Australia get farther away from the change that took away their freedoms and more used to the lack thereof.

You sure you got the right countries there? In what way would they be categorised as, "less free"?. If anything I would describe Australia as more loosely regulated than the USA.

The whole, "American Freedom" thing is a bit of empty propoganda. It's a great thing but certainly not exclusive. There are probably 100 countries in the world that experience a similar level of "freedom"
 
Superfly
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:40 am

Quoting roswell41 (Thread starter):
Despite the President's angry remarks this afternoon, this should quell the immediate gun control / 2nd Amendment assault at the federal level. I believe the President is sincere that he will try again at a later date.



Awesome!
Glad this went down. Too bad there will be other politicians in line to cook up more anti-gun legislation in the future.

Just out of curiosity. Did this bill require that all criminals turn in their guns and be nice people?
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2707200X
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:58 am

Meaningful gun reform would have passed if the Republicans would not have subverted American democracy to a supermajority. These idiots, yes idiots who voted against the bill are spineless cowards who would rather cave in to the lies, propaganda of the massacre enabling NRA who cares more about allowing criminals to have Bushmasters that the livelihood of the children that are being killed by the weapons that they love and support. The bloodthirsty NRA and the people in Congress who claim to care about the life of children "only until born" and Bushmasters have won the first round but the American people will win at the end.

To all the people in here who are against background checks, why are you against it? Are you against wait periods too? Why should a gun be sold to husbands or boyfriends who beat their wife or girlfriend, people with mental problems or has a quick fuse? And why and I know there are some of you in here, why do you want or need unlimited assault weapons and bullets for your stash, are you planing an insurrection against a government entity of some sort or against this president who some of you have with an uncontrolled passion?

The people who are against background checks and need AR-15's are the people who would fail such an examination.
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KaiGywer
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:14 am

My state's democratic senator voted against the bill, since it was the wish of her constituents. Good for her.

Heitkamp said she has heard overwhelmingly from North Dakotans that they do not support the bill in its current form.

“I commend Senators Manchin and Toomey for working so hard to bring a serious bill to the floor,” Heitkamp said.

“I’ve thought long and hard about this, I’ve taken the tough meetings ... and at the end of the day, my duty is to listen to and represent the people of North Dakota.”
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Maverick623
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:26 am

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 29):
why are you against it?

Because of this bullcrap:

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 29):
The people who are against background checks and need AR-15's are the people who would fail such an examination.

What you're basically saying is that anyone who wants to own an AR-15 is legally insane and/or wants to overthrow the government.

That's not an argument: that's a personal attack with no basis in any kind of medical science whatsoever. It's bullcrap.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:42 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 30):
Heitkamp said she has heard overwhelmingly from North Dakotans that they do not support the bill in its current form.

Scientific poll of residents or simply the vocal minority?
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2707200X
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:47 am

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 31):
Because of this bullcrap:

I oppose bg checks because its bullcrap, felonies, I'm mad now, no real answer.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 31):
What you're basically saying is that anyone who wants to own an AR-15 is legally insane and/or wants to overthrow the government.

That's not an argument: that's a personal attack with no basis in any kind of medical science whatsoever. It's bullcrap.

There is no reason in this country why these guns are needed for personal defense. People who collect large caches of assault riffles often tend in this country have real grievances with the government and as I have seen before in here and in other sites tend to be or at least read out to appear paranoid.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
rampart
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:03 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
It was simply a pathetic attempt by the Democrats to remove another part of the consitution and never should have gotten as far as it did.

I'm in favor of repealing the 2nd amendment. It serves no modern purpose. I have no confidence in allowing you the right to own a gun. You should have no such right. You may, however, qualify to own a gun after appropriate training, testing, and background check. You know, like operating other potentially deadly devices, like a car. Not a right.

Yes, I've studied this, thought about it a lot. I've concluded that the usual arguments do not hold water, and are founded mostly on paranoia, illogic, and sometimes hatred.

-Rampart
 
FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:05 am

Even this bill still allowed for no background check for private sale so long as no public advertisement of the selling was made. I think that was a fair compromise. There is no reason that I shouldn't prove that I am a criminal or legally pose a risk to society when buying a gun at any time. I don't fear background check's, in the past year I have completed at least 3 for jobs and other reasons. I don't see how that is a burden. If it is already done in most cases as other posters say why not have it done in all cases?

This bill also had benefits for gun owners, It made it legal now to transport a legally owned firearm through any state. (I have seen so many people arrested in JFK when checking in their guns because they lacked a NYC carry permit, which I think is totally unfair, especially since many of them were coming from hunting or some sort of sporting event where their permits where valid but flying out of NYC which doesn't recognize anyone else's permit causes them to spend a night in jail.)

Quoting sccutler (Reply 17):

The legislation was meaningless tripe, another attempt at the relentless increase in federal government power.

I don't see how this was increase in federal power. The background checks already existed.

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
I'll start taking that idea seriously when the NRA stops neutering the enforcement mechanisms through budget cuts and other legislative restrictions. Until then, it's nothing but a distracting talking point.

Right on the money. You can simultaneously say enforce the laws on the books while backing laws that make next to impossible to enforce the laws (48 hour rule for destruction of background check data)

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
It was simply a pathetic attempt by the Democrats to remove another part of the consitution and never should have gotten as far as it did.

Background checks do nothing to impede anyone that can own a firearm legally.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 30):

My state's democratic senator voted against the bill, since it was the wish of her constituents. Good for her.

I saw that ND was among the states that had 90% support for expanded background checks.

Quoting DiamondFlyer (Reply 3):
Start enforcing the laws on the books before you make more.

Would you support the removal of the 48 hour background check destruction mandate? That would definaly make tracking down failed checks easier.
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Maverick623
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:31 am

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 33):

I oppose bg checks because its bullcrap, felonies, I'm mad now, no real answer.

I opposed this bill, not the concept of background checks. Nice deflection from the name-calling, though.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 33):
There is no reason in this country why these guns are needed for personal defense.

     

I take it you've never woken up to a stranger with bad intentions in your room. I have. I can tell you that guns are a very useful thing to have for self-defense.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 33):
People who collect large caches of assault riffles often tend in this country have real grievances with the government

Oh, you mean like my cousins who have served honorably in both the Army and Marines, and have a decent gun collection?

Nothing more than a straw man, and a poor one at that.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 33):
and as I have seen before in here and in other sites tend to be or at least read out to appear paranoid.

LOL. You're basing your opinion of people on what they say ON THE INTERNET?

Quoting rampart (Reply 34):
I've concluded that the usual arguments do not hold water, and are founded mostly on paranoia, illogic, and sometimes hatred.

Funny, the only paranoia and hatred I see here are from the anti-gun types.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Aeri28
Posts: 668
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:38 am

Quoting pvjin (Reply 12):
I'm glad there's big ocean between this madness and the civilization we have here.

yep, the amount of mowed down Europeans coming back to their homelands in body bags underscores your comment.

(where's my rolleyes??)

___

Seriously, I"m all for background checks, the stronger the better. I'm a die hard democrat but believe in the right to bear arms, but I want you to be as least crazy as possible. Or at least have some record of you having that gun. Have no interest in taking them away from law abiding citizes. Both sides of my family had guns. Mothers side in Montana hunted in season, fathers side in Norther California did as well. My father even collected Winchester rifles and displayed them. I just don't think there is a need for military gauge weapons for the average citizen.

But I hate comments like that above. Apart from my family both sides, I have never seen a gun in person except on a cop, never heard one being shot and never knew anybody who has been shot. And I grew up in Los Angeles, lived in San Francisco, New York City and Honolulu. I guess I'm one of the few who has't run for cover.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:46 am

The problem with these gun threads is that they eventually revert back to the same arguments. I must have read 100 of these over the years, and I can tell you, none of you seem to have anything to say that hasnt been said 100 times before. And to give you a little hint, nobody wins, nobody changes their mind. Nobody gets anymore enlightened. There is an equal amount of "evidence" to support either argument. And you have all become so practiced at the rebuttal of this evidence that everything gets cancelled out.

I would suggest that the court of public opinion is the best way to settle this. Call a referendum and go with the result.

What I am interested in, and does perhaps present an opportunity for new discussion, is the political remifications for Obama. It almost feels like a "no confidence" vote. He came out swinging with a suggestion of fairly grand changes after Sandy Hook. What he ended up asking for was not that extreme, (when you consider the spectrum of changes he could have tried). He went and did the 100 days after, "that's not who we are" speech.

And then finally, he doesn't get this through.

So the grand result is, nothing has changed. There is no greater, or lesser likelihood of a Sandy Hook happening tomorrow.

Lame duck? I am sure he would have hoped it to be one of those moments that define a Presidency
 
Stabilator
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:56 am

Bombing in Boston: Blame the Bomber(s)
Shooting in Colorado/CT: Blame the gun.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

Not to be insensitive, but Obama really tried to play to the heartstrings of America, allowing the Sandy Hook parents to be present at voting. Im confident we will find a balance to gun control eventually. The Democratic Senator listened to her constituents, and I applaud her for it. Ultimately it comes down to stakeholders, i.e who has a vested interest in a policy area. If gun owners spoke out against these bills, its no different than senior citizens and the AARP speaking out against healthcare reform.

I would like to see:
1) No more use of the word "assault" in the bill's language. I swear some get a hard on every time it is mentioned.
2) Increased mental screening/funding for mental health treatment. Im not saying if a kid had depression in 8th grade he should never be able to touch a firearm when he is healthy, but many of these mass shooting are committed by the mentally unstable.
3) Increased funding for firearm training and awareness. Perhaps funded by the states etc. Or the NRA (doubtful). Or perhaps the local PD (maybe they have spare officers around that could provide training...idk just spitballing)
4) Mandatory background checks. It should happen, I am sure it will, eventually.
5) If you own a gun, you must own a gun safe (This may already be the case, not sure if it is or not)

[Edited 2013-04-18 03:35:21]
So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
 
romeobravo
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:53 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
I see that problem as only getting worse as people, especially those is less free countries such as Great Britian and Australia get farther away

The US is now ranked 10th on the economic freedom index. Behind Canada, Australia and those horrible socialists in Denmark.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:12 am

Like many, I am disappointed in the failure of this bill, but it was a terribly flawed one, designed to fail.

The background checks would also present very limited benefit as it wouldn't allow for real mental health checks as would be in conflict with medical privacy laws. This law would have also stepped on state laws as to transit of guns and bullets illegal in a state like on an airplane flight and transferring between flights in a state (like EWR in New Jersey, with strict gun laws). The additional bureaucracy would have cost taxpayers money, something most politicians are dead against.

I guess it will take a few 'middle eastern males' doing a terror act with guns in a public place before any real change in gun laws.
 
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2707200X
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:37 am

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 42):
Not to be insensitive, but Obama really tried to play to the heartstrings of America, allowing the Sandy Hook parents to be present at voting.

Why should they otherwise not be allowed to be present in voting?

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
I take it you've never woken up to a stranger with bad intentions in your room. I have. I can tell you that guns are a very useful thing to have for self-defense.
Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
Funny, the only paranoia and hatred I see here are from the anti-gun types.

Despite what the liars at the NRA says, being against assault riffles is not the same as being anti gun.
"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
 
Mir
Posts: 19092
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:26 pm

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 29):
Meaningful gun reform would have passed if the Republicans would not have subverted American democracy to a supermajority.

Have to correct you here: it was Harry Reid who set the rules to require 60 vites. This was because he didn't want NRA-sponsored amendments to pass. Unfortunately, it cane back to bite him.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 31):

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 29):
The people who are against background checks and need AR-15's are the people who would fail such an examination.

What you're basically saying is that anyone who wants to own an AR-15 is legally insane and/or wants to overthrow the government.

No, he's saying that people who want to own AR-15s AND don't want to bother with a background check are likely to be a problem. And I agree. If you can pass a background check and want to buy an AR-15, then go right ahead. But the idea that we should continue providing an easy avenue for those who could not pass a background check to get their hands on those sorts of guns (or any guns at all for that matter) is ludicrous.

Background checks are good enough for buying from a dealer. Why are they so inappropriate for gun shows or other private sales?

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 42):
Bombing in Boston: Blame the Bomber(s)
Shooting in Colorado/CT: Blame the gun.

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

If it were as easy to legally obtain a bomb as it is to legally obtain a gun, you can bet that you'd be hearing a lot of people wanting to do something about that. So the comparison isn't valid at all.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:31 pm

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 44):
The additional bureaucracy would have cost taxpayers money, something most politicians are dead against.

Here's a novel idea—place the burden of any costs for background checks onto the gun owners. If they want to buy a gun, pay the full cost, don't lay the cost onto the rest of society.
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rampart
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:42 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 39):
Funny, the only paranoia and hatred I see here are from the anti-gun types.

That would be a typical response for a knee-jerk reaction. I didn't say anti-gun. Own one, if you qualify. Own several, if you qualify. But you shouldn't have a right to it. I might agree that I am paranoid about the NRA, and have some hatred for them. An organization formerly aligned with hunters' interests has now become a bullying lobby that manages to dictate to our government in opposition to a 90% majority of the general citizenry. Where's my protection against that sort of subversive influence? A gun?
 
Aeri28
Posts: 668
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:44 pm

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 41):
What I am interested in, and does perhaps present an opportunity for new discussion, is the political remifications for Obama. It almost feels like a "no confidence" vote. He came out swinging with a suggestion of fairly grand changes after Sandy Hook. What he ended up asking for was not that extreme, (when you consider the spectrum of changes he could have tried). He went and did the 100 days after, "that's not who we are" speech.

A No Confidence vote? On a grand national scale? 54-46 vote. Many are for it. Laws get voted on and it happens or doesn't happen. I didn't get a chance to vote on it. I know my Senator did. Who I elected. In the way I would want that person to.

But again, your proposed argument for the most part will be answered in a way that is dependent on whether or not someone is FOR or AGAINST Obama. Do you honestly think otherwise? I believe he has our best interest at heart and that of the countrys. Love that he went to bat and was passioniate about it. Why would I blame his effort? He's a smart man. Now XXX Poster who is against Obama (and we'll hear about it on this thread), will more than likely answer your discussion in a way you are probably hoping to hear. "I" don't think Obama will have political ramifications. If anythinng if the general consensus polls say 90% of the population is for some background checkis, it'll be a talking point come 2016. Two steps backward, one forward. We'll get there.


But I agree, these threads never never change a persons opinion. You can argue and state a case all you want. And it is the same usual rehash over and over.

[Edited 2013-04-18 05:46:29]
 
airtran737
Posts: 3217
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:45 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 4):
A shameful day for the country. The only people who should be happy about this are people who want a gun but couldn't pass a background check, and it's not rocket science to figure out what sort of people fall into that category. The inmates are truly running the asylum.

I am quite happy about it failing and I am a CWP holder, and also hold a Department of Defense clearance. Needless to say, I can pass any background check.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
soon7x7
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:13 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
Thank god this piece of legislation did not pass.

Now it is 11%...If you apply the same logic to the Boston Marathon, then we should ban all marathons as "if we can save one child's life, then its worth it." (Biden, relative to Sandy Hook). Nonsense.!

Quoting L-188 (Reply 22):
Frankly I lack faith in the administration, I don't make the mistake of calling that the US

If the broader attempt at background checks was a sincere gesture by this administration to curve the appetite of gun wielding idiots running around the streets this measure would have my support but given the past 5 year climate of this administration and it's performance where America is concerned and by America, I mean what it stands for, then I would support it but Mr. Obama, Biden, Pelosi, Reid and all the others have a backhanded method of getting what they want. Right or left...this administration has been gutting this country like a fish. A word exists for this behavior, most forgot it and some never heard of it. It's called "Communism". For the parents of the children lost @ Sandy Hook and loved ones of others lost as a result of gun violence, their are no words and no solutions. The mentally deranged are everywhere and always will be. The parents of these children have every right to respond with outrage at the availability of such weapons but sadly as demonstrated the other day, kitchen cooking devices can also kill...The most dangerous weapon on the market today is the human mind. This is currently being demonstrated by this administration.
 
rampart
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RE: Obama's Gun Control Attempt Defeated For Now

Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:18 pm

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 49):
But I agree, these threads never never change a persons opinion. You can argue and state a case all you want. And it is the same usual rehash over and over.

Sort of. These threads (and discussions elsewhere) have altered my opinion. My previous stance was to be pro-gun control but open-minded and listening, reasonable. Now, I'm not. I'm now taking a hard line in equal and opposite reaction to pro-gun hardliners. My only worry on that is that if I get vociferous about it, they are armed and I'm not. You don't see gun control people sending death threats, but the other way around.

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