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Aesma
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France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:07 pm

After 136 hours of debate, day and night, in both legislative chambers, many protests and march for and against the law, it has finally been adopted with a clear majority, but very reflective of the left/right division of the chambers.

327 for, 230 against and 10 abstentions.

The final vote happened with lots of people at the balcony for the public, and at one point a scuffle started between opponents and proponents, resulting in all of them being expelled.

The main opposition party, the UMP of former president Nicolas Sarkozy, has voted massively against, only 4 out of 196 UMP deputies voted for, and out of those 2 hit the wrong key and will ask for their vote to be changed to against ! The centrist UDI party, really a center-right party, voted against too, with 5 voting for out of 30, the party had no official position, though. Most left-wing deputies voted for except some from the overseas territories where there is cultural and religious opposition.

All in all a great day in my opinion, one that will be remembered, and I expect many right-wing politicians to have to bite their tongue in the future.
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GrahamHill
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:07 pm

Good, so now the government and the members of the Assemblée nationale can focus on stuff that are really important, like getting us out of the current crisis, finding a way to make our companies more competitive, improving our exportations, tackling down the increasing unemployement rate, helping the working poors, finding a way to make medium class less miserable, stopping scaring rich people away by giving up that stupid 75% tax, etc.

This law took too long and drew useless energy from everyone. It should have been adopted in a blink of an eye.

Now, let's go back to work!!!  

[Edited 2013-04-23 15:11:07]
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mariner
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:44 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 1):
This law took too long and drew useless energy from everyone. It should have been adopted in a blink of an eye.

  

It stil surprises me that it became the divisive issue that it did, but - hopefully - things calm down now.

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Tugger
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:49 pm

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
It stil surprises me that it became the divisive issue that it did, but - hopefully - things calm down now.

Apparently one of the big issues was that this now allows adoption by same-sex couples. That was not allowed before.

Tugg
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mariner
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting tugger (Reply 3):
Apparently one of the big issues was that this now allows adoption by same-sex couples. That was not allowed before.

Indeed, but it seemed to me there was more to it than simply marriage equality. I'm not in France, I bow to the knowledge of anyone who is there, but many newspapers (such as the Guardian) pointed to general discontent with the government, as in:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 1):
Good, so now the government and the members of the Assemblée nationale can focus on stuff that are really important, like getting us out of the current crisis, finding a way to make our companies more competitive, improving our exportations, tackling down the increasing unemployement rate, helping the working poors, finding a way to make medium class less miserable, stopping scaring rich people away by giving up that stupid 75% tax, etc.

And that the marriage issue became the flash point for that discontent.

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johnboy
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:13 am

Quoting mariner (Reply 2):
It stil surprises me that it became the divisive issue that it did, but - hopefully - things calm down now.

Sadly, not yet per AP reports:


http://www.timesunion.com/news/world...e-turns-violent-4455177.php#page-1

Wonder what the breakdown of the crowd is amongst right-wing sore losers, street thugs and God's Gentle People? (Granted, there's probably some overlap there...)
 
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:51 am

Love wins yet another battle in 2013. C'est magnifique!
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ltbewr
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:54 am

The right winders use being against progressive policies like accepting same-gender marriage to cover up their real agendas.
Another country joining the 21st Century. Now if we could be so progressive in the USA.
 
AR385
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:51 am

Aesma, can you plase write a bit about why the issue was so divisive and generated so much controversy? One would have imagine that this wouldn´t have been the case in a country like France, for many things I´m sure you are aware. I´m really interested, thanks.
 
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zkojq
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:26 am

Congratulations France, i'm proud as ever.  
Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
After 136 hours of debate, day and night

Wow, that is quite a bit.

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 1):

 checkmark 

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):

I guess the fact that adoption is included in the law is going to make the issue quite a bit more contentious. This is just my opinion, though.

[Edited 2013-04-23 22:27:07]
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AF1624
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:10 am

And the religious idiots that were against this law have proved once again to the world or at least France how "tolerant" they are by throwing cobble stones, tear gas grenades and fire crackers at the anti-riot police guarding the parliament last night.

They want people to be tolerant with their religious beliefs but in turn they act like uncivil and uneducated idiots when it doesn't go their way.

It's about time this law passed, if only to piss these guys off.

Next step, I think, is that the first gay marriage will take place and will be highly media-covered - and I'm pretty sure these religious conservative folk will picket that marriage.

Then I'll be very happy to throw cobble stones at them. Because I don't say I'm tolerant. I don't have to be.
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:02 am

Quoting zkojq (Reply 9):
Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):

I guess the fact that adoption is included in the law is going to make the issue quite a bit more contentious. This is just my opinion, though.

The whole debate was confused by the fact that gay marriage and adoption were both in the same bill. The pro camp argued on equality of access to marriage; the anti camp, mainly the church, argued only on the basis of adoption of children. This polarised the debate so that it resembled what happens in US politics on most issues: no real discussion, just polemic on both sides.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
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Aesma
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:06 am

I will write more a bit later but indeed adoption became the "official" focus of the opposition, although a large part only say that "because of the children", they would have been against anyway. In France marriage and adoption are linked, in an anachronistic and illogical way (since single people, straight or gay, can adopt, just not unmarried couples, and more children are conceived outside of marriage than in so marriage isn't what it used to be). This law is not new in the sense that it's a modification of the current civil code, now a marriage is between two adults rather than a man and a woman. Adoption follows automatically, and if it didn't, I'm sure the European Court of Human Rights would have had something to say about that. In practice very few children will be adopted by couples without children, it's more about the social parent adopting the biological child of the other, so even the "because of the children" argument doesn't hold water.
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DNDTUF
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:37 am

This is one of the things that has confused me most about France. For a country that fiercely guards its secularism, it was strange to see such a public display of religious opposition. Another different aspect is that this is the first time France has seen protests from the right on such a large scale - there is probably some trade union demonstration going on at any given time in France but there has never been such a large mobilisation of the right (centrists to the far -right).

Being a supporter of the bill, I can't begin to imagine why people would be against it but the 'no' campaign employed some interesting techniques. Firstly, they called themselves the 'manifestation pour tous" (demonstration for everyone) implying an inclusive atmosphere and made heavy use of the colour pink during their protests. And the 'leader' of the no campaign is a 'humourist' and former performer turned christian who makes excellent use of the media. Large amounts of people were brought in from the provinces, who tend to be more conservative, to demonstrate in the large cities. They also used the image of the traditional family to promote their beliefs. I think one of their main objections is the removal of the terms 'mother' and 'father' from all official documents. The BBC manages to sum up the protests quite well:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21200685

They kept using the old saying of "think of the children!" Posters like this were placed all over the town centre where I live - I found it quite shocking so I took a picture. The translation is "Gay parenthood doesn't work". (branché means plugged in or connected and can also be used to mean 'trendy')


Anyway I'm glad this bill has passed and hopefully the first marriages will go ahead peacefully. How Mr Hollande, time to get on with fixing the economy...
 
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:07 pm

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
All in all a great day in my opinion, one that will be remembered, and I expect many right-wing politicians to have to bite their tongue in the future.

A fantastic day for France. After 1982's decriminalization of homosexuality, then 1999's PACS, it's now 2013's same sex marriage. Badinter, Jospin and Hollande/Taubira.

I remember have seen videos of Christine Boutin pathetic comedy in 1999. Is she really married to one of her cousins?
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:29 pm

Quoting DNDTUF (Reply 13):
but there has never been such a large mobilisation of the right

You forget the demonstration of 1984 when Mitterand wanted to kill private schools, which brought almost a million people in the streets of Paris!

Quoting DNDTUF (Reply 13):
Mr Hollande, time to get on with fixing the economy...

  

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 14):
Is she really married to one of her cousins?

Yes 
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AF1624
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 14):
I remember have seen videos of Christine Boutin pathetic comedy in 1999. Is she really married to one of her cousins?

Anyone with her beliefs is bound to show patheticness publicly. Especially if doing politics. Or trying to, anyway.

And yes, she is married to one of her cousins which, if I'm not mistaken, is illegal in France.
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GrahamHill
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 16):
And yes, she is married to one of her cousins which, if I'm not mistaken, is illegal in France.

It's not illegal between cousins. It's illegal with all the other members of the family, but strangely enough, not between cousins.
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:59 pm

That's a very good thing. In fact, the only good thing to come out of this government so far, and, I'm afraid, the last one for some time...

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 1):
Good, so now the government and the members of the Assemblée nationale can focus on stuff that are really important, like getting us out of the current crisis, finding a way to make our companies more competitive, improving our exportations, tackling down the increasing unemployement rate, helping the working poors, finding a way to make medium class less miserable, stopping scaring rich people away by giving up that stupid 75% tax, etc.

Or find another relatively superficial (not saying this was!) social issue to cover up their complete and utter lack of ability to do anything about any of that...
That government looks like a deer caught up in the headlights of a speeding truck.

Still, there's now at least have one claim for the history books, and it's a good one!
This is real social progress towards a modern society, though it did bring out and highlight the worst of the country's bigoted and narrow minded lot we still harbor.
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Aesma
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:53 pm

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 17):
It's not illegal between cousins.

But it's illegal in the catholic church unless you have the permission of the pope !
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SpaceshipDC10
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:17 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 18):
This is real social progress towards a modern society,

Yes it is, at last.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 18):
though it did bring out and highlight the worst of the country's bigoted and narrow minded lot we still harbor.

I could imagine such irrational reaction coming from the US, but from France, that was quite jaw-dropping.

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 16):
Anyone with her beliefs is bound to show patheticness publicly. Especially if doing politics. Or trying to, anyway.

Yes, but fourteen years later she was still there spiting her venom. As it goes in French, parfois, c'est vraiment dommage que le ridicule ne tue pas.
 
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GrahamHill
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:46 pm

Quoting francoflier (Reply 18):
Or find another relatively superficial (not saying this was!) social issue to cover up their complete and utter lack of ability to do anything about any of that...

Hollande has the lowest positive opinions ever recorded for a president of the 5th Republic. For his own sake (and ours too!), I strongly suggest he starts working on the economy with real measures. So far, he and his government have done peanuts.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 19):
But it's illegal in the catholic church

Of course it is illegal in the Church. And so will still be gay marriage. I was only referring to civil law, really  
Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 20):
but from France, that was quite jaw-dropping.

I was quite surprised too. I really thought this would go quick and neat. It didn't and I regret it.

Well, at least it's done. Now let's focus on our bigger problems!
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
 
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Aesma
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:46 pm

The economy is mainly an European problem, as long as Merkel doesn't bulge, nothing will change.
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mariner
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:55 pm

Here's a wonderful speech by Christiane Taubira, the French Minister of Justice. It's in French, of course, but there is a translation in the link:

http://joesreport.tumblr.com/post/48...ter-of-justice-christiane-taubiras

And here's the last part in English:

"Tonight, we would especially like to speak to the adolescents in our country - boys and girls - who have been hurt during this debate. We speak to those children who found themselves in the midst of deep and frightening chaos. They discovered a society where a wave of selfishness led many to loudly protest against the rights of others.

We simply want to tell these adolescents that they are at home in our society.

We recognize them in this society. We recognize their contradictions, talents, shortcomings, qualities and fragility. These are the things that make each and every one of us unique. Regardless of any sexual issues, each one of us is unique. That is the strength of our society. It is even the basis of our society. It is the basis of our relationship to society. So we tell these adolescents: if you find yourself losing hope, sweep all of those thoughts out of your minds. They are only words. One day they will float away. Stay with us and keep your heads high. You have nothing to be ashamed of. We say that loud and clear, with our all the strength in our voices. As Nietzsche said: Truth kills. And if you repress it, it will kill you. "


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Aesma
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:21 pm

Yeah, Taubira really made an impression during the debates.

About homophobia, often these opponents came to the protests with their children and teens. How many are homosexual and discovered their parents' homophobia ? Hundreds probably.
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RE: France Finally Adopts Marriage For All Law

Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:27 am

A fantastic and essential speech by Christiane Taubira.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
About homophobia, often these opponents came to the protests with their children and teens.

This goes to prove how vile and coward they are.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 24):
How many are homosexual and discovered their parents' homophobia ? Hundreds probably.

I don't know but it must be very frightening for them.

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