johnboy
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2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 1:02 am

http://www.sfgate.com/news/crime/art...ies-after-only-praying-4455524.php

More religious nonsense, but sadly a SECOND child died to satisfy their twisted beliefs.

Interesting quote from the lawyer:

"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."

I think I'd disagree quite strongly that they were "very loving, nurturing parents."
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:41 am

Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):

"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday. "Whether their religion had anything to do with the death of their baby, we don't know."

Change "nobody" to "everybody" and we have a winner.

Better parents than these morons lose their kids all the time. Not seeing why they should be able to hide their abuse behind god...


That judge is right in pointing out that they're a danger to their children more than society. Still though, jail time's probably in order, and lots of it.
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NoUFO
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:56 am



What do they need a lawyer for? Wouldn't saying some prayers be enough to get them out of the trouble?

Poor kid(s).
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Mir
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:00 am

Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):
"Nobody argues that these aren't very loving, nurturing parents," she said Tuesday.


You could maybe make somewhat of a case that they were loving. But you want me to believe that they were nurturing? Hell no.

-Mir
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DocLightning
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:11 am

Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):
More religious nonsense, but sadly a SECOND child died to satisfy their twisted beliefs.

They were on probation for criminal child neglect and had a second child and not ONE social worker checked on the child? By eight months there should have been four visits to the doctor (one weight check, one 2mo check, one 4mo check, and one 6mo check) and possibly five visits if there was a newborn visit. There should have been three rounds of vaccines. NOBODY checked to see that they were being done?

They should have been in prison the first time for negligent homicide. One does not allow a murderer out into society, even if the only potential victims are their own children.

Alternatively, this is where I favor mandatory sterilization. "You may either spend your lives in jail, or each of you undergoes permanent sterilization and surrenders your remaining children." I prefer option (2). Far cheaper.
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AR385
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:04 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
They were on probation for criminal child neglect and had a second child and not ONE social worker

A good friend of mine works at CPS in Houston. The stories she tells me would probably incense you, although you´ve probably heard similar.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Alternatively, this is where I favor mandatory sterilization. "You may either spend your lives in jail, or each of you undergoes permanent sterilization and surrenders your remaining children." I prefer option (2). Far cheaper.

Unfortunately that is just as unethical and immoral as what these "parents" did.
 
NoUFO
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:08 am

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
By eight months there should have been four visits to the doctor (one weight check, one 2mo check, one 4mo check, and one 6mo check) and possibly five visits if there was a newborn visit. There should have been three rounds of vaccines.

Perhaps they did, and since their child wasn't ill at that time they might have been thinking that seeing a doc wouldn't be a 'sin'.

On a side note: Are those check-ups mandatory in the U.S. or just in some states?
I ask because I once stumbled over a blog of a young American couple living in Hannover, Germany. Their daughter was born here, and in one blog entry the mother expressed her surprise to see a social worker or medical assistant paying them an unannounced visit after they missed a mandatory health check-up for their kid and ignored a reminder or two as well.

Edit: Oh wait ... there are still the vaccines of course ...

[Edited 2013-04-23 21:15:32]
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Mir
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:21 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Unfortunately that is just as unethical and immoral as what these "parents" did.

How else do you make sure they don't have children again? The evidence that they're not fit to be parents seems pretty clear.

-Mir
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AR385
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:43 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
How else do you make sure they don't have children again?

You pretty much can´t forbid people to have children. That´s just barbaric. And besides, you open a can of worms with questions like where does the sterilization stops? What criteria should be used?, etc. do bad genes count too? What if the parents carry the "violence" gene for example?

I´m not defending the parents. Those children should have been taken away. I´m just saying we are not back in the times where you sterilize people for whatever criteria the current society thinking is "fair".
 
NoUFO
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:51 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
You pretty much can´t forbid people to have children. That´s just barbaric. And besides, you open a can of worms with questions like where does the sterilization stops?

  
Define "fit to be parents".

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
Those children should have been taken away.

Monitored, not taken away - at least not when they don't need a doc urgently. I am sure they are indeed loving parents, they "just" need to learn that it is not a sin to see a doc.
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AeroWesty
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:08 am

Gosh, this couple has seven other children, all now in foster care. Not only do I not understand avoiding life-saving measures when a child is obviously in crisis, I also don't understand the need for such large families in this day and age.

This is a tragic and disturbing story. I certainly hope there aren't any plans to return this couple's other children to them at any time.
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Mir
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:08 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
You pretty much can´t forbid people to have children. That´s just barbaric.

What's barbaric is letting a child die because you refused to give it medical care.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
And besides, you open a can of worms with questions like where does the sterilization stops?

If you let a child die through neglect, then I'd say you're a strong candidate for sterilization.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 8):
What criteria should be used?, etc. do bad genes count too? What if the parents carry the "violence" gene for example?

No, and no. People would have to prove themselves to be egregiously bad parents first (and I think denying a child medical care counts). I have no interest in trying to proactively prevent problems - lots of dragons down that road.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 9):
I am sure they are indeed loving parents, they "just" need to learn that it is not a sin to see a doc.

They had a chance to do that after the first time. If that didn't do it, I have a hard time believing they'll ever get the message.

-Mir
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EA CO AS
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:17 am

Quoting johnboy (Thread starter):
More religious nonsense, but sadly a SECOND child died to satisfy their twisted beliefs.

Religious zealots who think God will do everything without any outside intervention; baffling. Reminds me of a monologue from "The West Wing" :

You know, you remind me of the man that lived by the river. He heard a radio report that the river was going to rush up and flood the town. And that all the residents should evacuate their homes. But the man said, “I’m religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me.” The waters rose up. A guy in a row boat came along and he shouted, “Hey, hey you! You in there. The town is flooding. Let me take you to safety.” But the man shouted back, “I’m religious. I pray. God loves me. God will save me.” A helicopter was hovering overhead. And a guy with a megaphone shouted, “Hey you, you down there.
The town is flooding. Let me drop this ladder and I’ll take you to safety.” But the man shouted back that he was religious, that he prayed, that God loved him and that God will take him to safety. Well... the man drowned. And standing at the gates of St. Peter, he demanded an audience with God. “Lord,” he said, “I’m a religious man, I pray. I thought you loved me. Why did this happen?”

God said, “I sent you a radio report, a helicopter, and a guy in a rowboat. What the hell are you doing here?”


Someone needs to staple this to these morons' foreheads with "GOD SENT YOU LEGAL PROBATION FROM YOUR LAST SERIOUS ERROR, THE ABILITY TO SEE DOCTORS, AND THE ABILITY TO GET MEDICATION" in red Sharpie on the front.

I want government intervention as a last resort, but we're THERE at this point if you ask me. As a parent, I hope the state intervenes and rescues the remaining children from these people before their negligence costs another innocent child their life.
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NoUFO
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:39 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 10):
, I also don't understand the need for such large families in this day and age.

According to them, contraceptives are probably a 'sin', too.

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
They had a chance to do that after the first time. If that didn't do it, I have a hard time believing they'll ever get the message.

Yes, but "not getting the message" doesn't justify measures like sterilization. Just like repeated stealing doesn't justify mandated amputation.
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Mir
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:01 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 13):
Just like repeated stealing doesn't justify mandated amputation.

Those are two very different things.

-Mir
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Aesma
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:47 pm

Well in France at least even voluntary sterilization is frowned upon, few doctors will do it, and never to a woman who hasn't had several children already.
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casinterest
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:17 pm

These parents may be religious, but I see Darwinism and Evolution hard at work.
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PHX787
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 2:41 pm

Pathetic beyond all belief.
Let me try their logic here....
if Medication is a sin, but also killing someone being a sin, wouldn't letting someone die from their illness be a sin as well because you are killing them by neglecting the obvious? ...

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):
These parents may be religious, but I see Darwinism and Evolution hard at work.

for this, you get this:
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DocLightning
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:26 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Unfortunately that is just as unethical and immoral as what these "parents" did.

No it is not. Just because the Nazis did something does not make it bad.

I believe that there are a few rare cases in which mandatory involuntary sterilization should be done and this is one of them. They continue to be a danger to any and all children they have.
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AR385
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:01 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
No it is not. Just because the Nazis did something does not make it bad.

Yes it is.

And I was not talking about the Nazis, but since you are bringing it up, yes, sure, taht one too. But that is only one more reason why it is morally, and ethically wrong.

Read my reply 8.
 
fr8mech
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
not ONE social worker checked on the child

Doc is right, more people or processes failed here than the parents.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
Alternatively, this is where I favor mandatory sterilization.

Yup.

Quoting AR385 (Reply 5):
Unfortunately that is just as unethical and immoral as what these "parents" did.

No. What is unethical and immoral is allowing folks who are incapable of caring for children to have children. Unfortunately, we as a society, reward this behavior.

Quite simply, in this case (and others like it) a choice should be given: if you want to walk freely among the people you will submit to chemical and/or physical sterilization. You don't want to be sterile, than you get to spend time in prison for the crime of allowing your child(ren) to die when normal, routine treatment was available.
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DeltaMD90
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:06 pm

Quoting AR385 (Reply 19):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 18):
No it is not. Just because the Nazis did something does not make it bad.

Yes it is.

Nazis ate sausages too... does that make eating sausages bad? Ridiculous example but I still think it illustrates a point. Nazis had stricter gun control, are you against that too now?

Not sure where I stand on mandatory sterilization, but what Doc is saying isn't mandatory, it's jail time OR sterilization... they could keep their reproductiveness and choose jail
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smittyone
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:28 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 16):

These parents may be religious, but I see Darwinism and Evolution hard at work.


There isn't enough science in the universe to wash the stupid off of these people!

But in case it's an issue of upbringing vice genetics I'm glad their surviving kids will get a chance to grow up healthy with other families.

[Edited 2013-04-25 03:38:25]
 
travelavnut
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RE: 2nd Child Dies Of Pair Who Believe Medicine Is Sin

Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:48 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 21):
Nazis ate sausages too

And they invented the Autobahn, I f--ing love the Autobahn...I hate Nazis though.
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