Superfly
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Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 3:57 pm

Very sensitive subject and I just want to say that I am pro-choice but this Dr. Gosnell trial is way over the top.
Newborn babies born crying during late term abortions were killed by Dr. Gosnell. Cutting and the spinal cords with scissors, cutting off feet and even killed several of his patients. Unsanitary conditions of his clinic.

Many of the images I've seen, they were too graphic to post in the non-av forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgGS429gUJ4


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvmQsM6qVZA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKdgaf9dhJs

[Edited 2013-04-24 08:58:51]
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Tugger
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:17 pm

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Very sensitive subject and I just want to say that I am pro-choice but this Dr. Gosnell trial is way over the top.
Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Many of the images I've seen, they were too graphic to post in the non-av forums.

Yes, it is vile and unbelievable. I have been following news of it for awhile now, it is just almost unbearable to read and learn about. That he could do this and do this for years is absolutely disgusting.

Tugg
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Mir
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:18 pm

This is a textbook example of why abortion should be legal. Because if it weren't, guys like him would be the only ones out there.

He's an absolute monster, and I hope he gets his ass handed to him by the courts, and then again in prison.

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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:27 pm

I hate to wave my Christian flag but you can now see why we are so against abortion. Some people have complete disregard for life. Life is a precious gift.

There are many couples in the world who would readily accept an unwanted baby. You don't have to kill it.

I also wonder why in America it takes the police so long to discover these terrible acts even when evidence is piling up all around them.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:29 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
There are many couples in the world who would readily accept an unwanted baby.

Like a gay couple?
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 4:38 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
There are many couples in the world who would readily accept an unwanted baby.

Like a gay couple?

Just because someone is a Christian doesnt mean theyre against gay rights and gay adoption. The Catholic Church is the main sect still stuck in the stone age. Ive seen GLBT banners hanging from the more progressive Christian institutions as well as Synagogues.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:02 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
There are many couples in the world who would readily accept an unwanted baby.

Unfortunately I am not sure the statistics line up in an even match.

There are also highly complex legal issues and costs surrounding adoptions that puts a very high hurdle on many people that would be willing to talk on these children. This is why in the US, many adoptions are from foreign countries. It makes it less likely that the parents will pursue the child or a relationship with them, as well as keep their rights as parents intact over the birth mother.

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Very sensitive subject and I just want to say that I am pro-choice but this Dr. Gosnell trial is way over the top.
Newborn babies born crying during late term abortions were killed by Dr. Gosnell. Cutting and the spinal cords with scissors, cutting off feet and even killed several of his patients. Unsanitary conditions of his clinic

Very sad situation, and some of the supposed cohersion that went into getting them to have abortions. Not to say these mothers are saints and unculpable, but they basically sold abortions like big macs.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
I also wonder why in America it takes the police so long to discover these terrible acts even when evidence is piling up all around them.



Not sure if the police are to blame in this one. He was operating in a low-income neighborhood and off the radar. Many of his patients were very poor, illegal aliens, minors and so many were just unaware.
Yes his acts were just beyond what is acceptable to rational minded human beings. What is even more shocking to me is how only right-wing news sources were talking about it.
There was a moment of clarity about lack of media coverage from MSN host Marc Lamont Hill.



“For what it’s worth, I do think that those of us on the left have made a decision not to cover this trial because we worry that it’ll compromise abortion rights. Whether you agree with abortion or not, I do think there’s a direct connection between the media’s failure to cover this and our own political commitments on the left. I think it’s a bad idea, I think it’s dangerous, but I think that’s the way it is.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...ade-a-decision-to-not-cover-trial/

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
Because if it weren't, guys like him would be the only ones out there.



So why is he out there performing abortions illegally?

Quoting tugger (Reply 1):
it is just almost unbearable to read and learn about. That he could do this and do this for years is absolutely disgusting.



Tell me about it!
I could have gone in to more detail in the OP but it's so vile that it may break the forum rules.

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
I hate to wave my Christian flag but you can now see why we are so against abortion.



No need to be ashamed of your Christian beliefs. Although I am pro-choice, I do not support this at all. This 'doctor' is a murderer.

I am sure Margaret Sanger is proud....

[Edited 2013-04-24 10:16:43]

[Edited 2013-04-24 10:17:51]
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
I hate to wave my Christian flag but you can now see why we are so against abortion. Some people have complete disregard for life. Life is a precious gift.

There are many couples in the world who would readily accept an unwanted baby. You don't have to kill it.

I think everyone agrees with you in this situation, but that is not the issue involved with "abortion", the question has always been about when do fetal cells become a "being". These babies were just that, babies, living, ready to breathe (and some did so), they were human beings and what this man did is inexcusable.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Not sure if the police are to blame in this one. He was operating in a low-income neighborhood and off the radar. Many of his patients were very poor, illegal aliens, minors and so many were just unaware.

From what I have read they were several times over the years that the state and city agencies became aweare of something regarding this mans operation and they basically failed to properly follow through. But additionally that there were employees that not actively bring this to light is also sad and so wrong. people ithat sasw this first hand should have been first and fortright in helping bring awareness to the wrongs that were occurring.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
What is even more shocking to me is how only right-wing news soures were talking about it.
There was a moment of clarity about lack of media coverage from MSN host Marc Lamont Hill.

“For what it’s worth, I do think that those of us on the left have made a decision not to cover this trial because we worry that it’ll compromise abortion rights. Whether you agree with abortion or not, I do think there’s a direct connection between the media’s failure to cover this and our own political commitments on the left. I think it’s a bad idea, I think it’s dangerous, but I think that’s the way it is.”

I tend to disagree with him.
I first learned of this from "non-right wing" sources a while ago, they have been reporting it. I have listened to coverage of it on the radio too via what many would consider "liberal" sources. It is that the subject is disgusting and hard to read and see and really learn about, that I think most have steered clear of it. They may be wrong for doing so but it is a problem for media nowadays, all types and "sides", as they like to report what will get them "eyes". Shocking people is one reason why this re-emerged as a "pop-topic" on many sites. Additionally there is an attempt to get people to be angry at the lack of coverage, which is more palatable and "engaging" than the acts involved. SO the story is about the coverage and not the acts (but it then becomes about that I hope).

Tugg
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:19 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
What is even more shocking to me is how only right-wing news soures were talking about it.

Really, hmm, I recall coming across this story some time ago. Looking back in the New York Times index, their first story on it was in January 2011:

Squalid Abortion Clinic Escaped State Oversight

They just didn't use it for political spin, that's all.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
I hate to wave my Christian flag but you can now see why we are so against abortion. Some people have complete disregard for life. Life is a precious gift.

I don't think you should apologize for your beliefs.

(The rabid atheist in me can't believe I just said that.)
  
 
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
additionally that there were employees that not actively bring this to light


Some of them were as young as 15 years old. Probably afraid and really wanted the money. Not sure.

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
Shocking people is one reason why this re-emerged as a "pop-topic" on many sites. Additionally there is an attempt to get people to be angry at the lack of coverage, which is more palatable and "engaging" than the acts involved.


I've been following this for almost a month now. I just now decided to start a thread about it. I don't want this to devolve in to a pissing match of which news source is better. The focus needs to be on Dr. Gosnell.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 5:44 pm

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
I've been following this for almost a month now. I just now decided to start a thread about it. I don't want this to devolve in to a pissing match of which news source is better. The focus needs to be on Dr. Gosnell.

  
I 100% agree Supe', you are right.

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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:28 pm

I heard this not too long ago on talk radio and just listening to the witness testimony from the trial was shocking it made me cry a little. I just couldn't believe someone could be so callous and to kill crying babies is just unthinkable. I'm pro-life and this just tears me up because I do disagree with the practice but this just cements it even more for me.
 
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:35 pm

From what little (before I had to stop) I've read on the web, this man killed unwanted living, breathing babies. That is murder, it has nothing to do with abortion. An embryo at an age of, say, three weeks is a completely different issue - all it is is an embryo with the potential to become a human being.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 11):
I don't want this to devolve in to a pissing match of which news source is better.

So why did you bring it up in the first place?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
What is even more shocking to me is how only right-wing news sources were talking about it.

Why make this political? Isn't it horrible enough as it is?

[Edited 2013-04-24 11:38:52]
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting aloges (Reply 14):
From what little (before I had to stop) I've read on the web, this man killed unwanted living, breathing babies. That is murder, it has nothing to do with abortion.

Bingo. End of thread.

This is not about abortion.

I can walk up to a 44yo man and shoot him in the head and call it "abortion," but it doesn't make it so.

This was murder.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:07 pm

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
I hate to wave my Christian flag but you can now see why we are so against abortion. Some people have complete disregard for life. Life is a precious gift.

I actually can't see why this justifies an anti-abortion position. I haven't heard a single person defending what this guy did, not even pro-choice people. This guy is not representative of abortion doctors. He will be, though (at least to a greater extent) if abortion is banned, though. Because when the scrupulous doctors can't do the procedures anymore because of the law, types like him will be all that are left. You can't tell me that's a good thing.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
So why is he out there performing abortions illegally?

Because he's a sick individual, and nobody would let him get away with what he wanted to do if he tried to do it legally. Thus, he did it on the quiet.

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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:29 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
End of thread.

Why?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
This is not about abortion.

Question for you. What is the stage when it doesn't become abortion? When the baby leaves the womb?, 6 months into the pregnancy? Just wondering.

[Edited 2013-04-24 14:30:07]
 
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:41 pm

Quoting aflyingkiwi (Reply 17):
What is the stage when it doesn't become abortion?

Again, this thread isn't about abortion, it is about infanticide. The murder of newborns. The wilful killing of human beings during the first moments of their lives.

Whatever your stance on abortion is, please do not drag this case into the discussion.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
This is not about abortion.
Quoting aloges (Reply 18):
this thread isn't about abortion

For his trial, Dr. Gosnell is also charged in the 2009 overdose death of a 41-year-old refugee who died from an overdose of Demerol during an abortion, just months after coming to the U.S. How can this thread not be about abortion? It's even in the thread title.

[Edited 2013-04-24 15:13:47]
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:20 pm

I think this definately is a thread about BOTH infanticide and abortion. He did perform many "late term abortions." In fact, it said he sometimes induced birth and then killed them. What is the difference between aborting an 8 month fetus and inducing birth and then killing it?

Luckily, most civilized people are against late term abortions. While I disagree with abortions in general, I can at least comprehend why some people see early term abortions as ok and don't see them as killers. But reaching the point of late term, IMO, is just as bad as what this guy did
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:27 pm

'Fly...thread starter. Agree; didn't even want to get envolved with topic because it almost reeks of the atrocities of Joseph Mengele. This very disturbing to me. Murder, indeed.

But, since I am posting, I also agree with DocLightning (Rep 15), but really wonder about the mt99 (Rep 4) post ..."Like a gay couple?" Geeze, that doesn't even dignify a response but here I am (almost) dignifying by asking "are you goofy serious or just plain goofy?" regards...jack
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:29 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 19):
For his trial, Dr. Gosnell is also charged in the 2009 overdose death of a 41-year-old refugee who died just months after coming to the U.S. How can this thread not be about abortion? It's even in the thread title.

I guess my question would be: If a doctor kills someone, is it really an issue with and about doctors and their practice (whatever it may be) or the act and action?

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
I think this definately is a thread about BOTH infanticide and abortion. He did perform many "late term abortions." In fact, it said he sometimes induced birth and then killed them. What is the difference between aborting an 8 month fetus and inducing birth and then killing it?

Luckily, most civilized people are against late term abortions. While I disagree with abortions in general, I can at least comprehend why some people see early term abortions as ok and don't see them as killers. But reaching the point of late term, IMO, is just as bad as what this guy did

I guess I need to know what the medical requirements are for a legal or "approved" late term abortion? I am like you, and I also know that many states have limits on the time that an abortion is allowed. In this case I get the impression that Gosnell (I really can't call him a doctor) is more a psychopath that liked killing.

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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:37 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
Luckily, most civilized people are against late term abortions.

I can only speak for myself, obviously: a late-term "abortion" is not an abortion, it is infanticide. AFAIK, an eight-month-old fetus has a very high chance of surviving without any complications; that's why killing one would be murder under most conceivable circumstances.

But an embryo in its seventh week? That's not yet a human being, so that abortion won't kill anyone.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 20):
While I disagree with abortions in general, I can at least comprehend why some people see early term abortions as ok and don't see them as killers.

Exactly.  Where there is no life, you cannot take it. Gosnell did take lives, that is the reason why this case is not about abortions.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:38 pm

Quoting tugger (Reply 22):
I guess I need to know what the medical requirements are for a legal or "approved" late term abortion? I am like you, and I also know that many states have limits on the time that an abortion is allowed. In this case I get the impression that Gosnell (I really can't call him a doctor) is more a psychopath that liked killing.

At the very least it should be at an age where NO baby/fetus feels pain. I'm pretty dead set on that. Beyond that, I'll be against it but I won't let the country burn arguing about that

(IDK if that makes sense or not)
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:44 pm

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 21):
"Like a gay couple?"

Nothing wrong with gay adoptions.

Quoting tugger (Reply 22):
If a doctor kills someone, is it really an issue with and about doctors and their practice

Dr. Gosnell's patient who died did so as a result of an abortion. His clinic was obviously substandard, and catered to those who couldn't afford an abortion in a reputable surgical center. To me, that makes abortion part and parcel with the infanticide issue. If I was in a similar situation, and died during botched back surgery in a like clinic, everyone would be talking about the lack of appropriate pain management in this country and what drove me to seek out dubious surgical services.

Quoting aloges (Reply 23):
Gosnell did take lives, that is the reason why this case is not about abortions.

The death of the abortion patient wasn't infanticide.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:21 am

Aerowesty (Rep 25) sez "Nothing wrong with gay adoptions."

Right you are, in my view. My post (Rep 21) was in reference to mt99's Rep 4 which I think was uncalled for and offensive (unless I took it the wrong way). I, maybe incorrectly, took it as flame-bait and was considering suggesting a deletion of that reply. regards...jack
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:09 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):
This is a textbook example of why abortion should be legal. Because if it weren't, guys like him would be the only ones out there.

Agreed.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
So why is he out there performing abortions illegally?

Because the government won't pay for abortions for poor women, and he was charging quite a bit less than legitimate abortion clinics.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2013...poses-deep-rift-in-abortion-debate

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Yes his acts were just beyond what is acceptable to rational minded human beings. What is even more shocking to me is how only right-wing news sources were talking about it.

I found news stories from ever major news source in less than a minute via a google news search.

Quoting aloges (Reply 14):
it has nothing to do with abortion.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
This is not about abortion.

  
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:09 am

Although I fully condemn the practice Gosnell had made for himself, one has to wonder why so many of these late term abortions were performed. Surely it doesn't take 30 weeks to realize that you are pregnant? As another comment mentioned, Gosnell's practice catered to women who either could not afford a proper, legal abortion and those who used abortions as a form of birth control. Where there is a demand, a market comes and Gosnell provided the service to the desperate.

I'm very much pro-choice and feel that abortion, when performed in the correct setting in a reasonable time frame is and should be perfectly legal. Countless women are raped, have complications due to the pregnancy, and/or find out the child will be born suffering from profound physical or intellectual disabilities. Abortion in many cases serves as a last resort when a child is severely ill and will be brought into the world with serious complications which will be lifelong.

[Edited 2013-04-24 18:16:43]
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:12 am

The graphic horrors of this clinic sounds like the medical experiments during WW II by Germany and Japan. It is well beyond any ethical and moral behavior. This person is not a doctor, he is a torturer, a profoundly mentally ill person who took advantage of the lack of access for affordable abortion for poor and non-white, non-European women.

It is interesting anti-abortion/pro-life protesters seem to focus on and even do violent acts at abortion clinics in 'nice' areas and neighborhoods, mainly serving white people, but ignored this 'clinic' serving non-white and poor women. Maybe if they went after this worse case clinic, they could have achieved a lot closer to their real intentions as well prevented the death and injury of so many adult and developing humans.

We also need a large grand jury investigation of those in the City and State Health Department and throughout those in government that were absolutely incompetent, totally ignored this sick clinic, didn't enforce existing laws. In some states, they are putting in onerous laws to shut down clinics with extreme regulations. Here the existing laws were not enforced.

This butcher is 72 years old. It is a certainty that he will spend the last of his life in jail. He wouldn't take the stand in his defense, his attorney is just trying to fight that he actually killed any late term and possibly viable human lives. I expect that the Jury won't take much time, they will quickly but carefully call him Guilty of most of the charges.
 
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:18 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 29):
It is interesting anti-abortion/pro-life protesters seem to focus on and even do violent acts at abortion clinics in 'nice' areas and neighborhoods, mainly serving white people, but ignored this 'clinic' serving non-white and poor women.

Actually the anti-abortion crowd is vocal about the amount of abortions are performed period. Stop making this a race issue. You heard directly from the horses mouth that liberals in the media chose to ignore this trial out of fear it would " compromise abortion rights". If you pay attention to what conservatives say about abortion, particularly black conservatives, this is what they mostly talk about.
I'm not a fan of right-wing news sources either but I'll listen to them to hear their side of an issue. Like it or not, there are millions of people that share their views and I like to hear all sides of an issue rather than bellyache about the source not sharing my views.

Quoting jagflyer (Reply 28):
Gosnell's practice catered to women who either could not afford a proper, legal abortion and those who used abortions as a form of birth control. Where there is a demand, a market comes and Gosnell provided the service to the desperate.

I'm not so sure about that. Philadelphia has plenty of Planned Parenthood clinics. I could see if this was in Uganda.

Quoting aloges (Reply 23):
I can only speak for myself, obviously: a late-term "abortion" is not an abortion, it is infanticide. AFAIK, an eight-month-old fetus has a very high chance of surviving without any complications;

  
One of my best friends was born pre-mature. She was born at 7 months. She is perfectly healthy and is raising two daughters of her own.

Quoting Mir (Reply 16):
I actually can't see why this justifies an anti-abortion position.

According to media insiders and reporters such as Marc Lamont Hill and several others have come out on record saying otherwise.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 15):
Bingo. End of thread.

Aren't you a doctor? A Pediatrician at that?
I'm surprised you want to shut down a discussion on a baby killing doctor so quick.

Quoting AviRaider (Reply 13):
I just couldn't believe someone could be so callous and to kill crying babies is just unthinkable.

He even joked about too.
"the baby's big enough to walk to the bus stop,"

“chicken with its head cut off.”


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AeroWesty
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:45 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 30):
You heard directly from the horses mouth that liberals in the media chose to ignore this trial out of fear it would " compromise abortion rights".

I'm a bit confused by this. I posted a link above from 2011 when the NY Times first reported the issue. The trial has been reported as a factual event in other news media sources as well (another poster said the same earlier).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like the complaint is that the story wasn't picked up by the usual 'hot button' media on the left, whatever's deemed to be today's opposite to Rush, Fox, etc., rather than about the media at large. Is that the issue?
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Boeing717200
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:48 am

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 29):

You can't ignore an inner city clinic if you didn't know it existed in the first place.

It is truly amazing the case has progressed for this long with the media largely ignoring it. It speaks volumes.

Quoting aloges (Reply 23):

By neice was born at 24 weeks. She's doing just fine at the ripe old age of 5. Late term abortions, like the ones he performed are common beyond this point. My experience with her changed my perspective on this issue immediately. She wasn't the only hand sized preemie in they NICU either.

[Edited 2013-04-24 20:59:14]
 
WestJet747
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:51 pm

I was eating while I watched those news clips and I had to stop. What that man did actually made me feel sick.  

Now that he is caught and will most certainly be found guilty, someone needs to look very hard at the Department of Health and put some boots to asses for the oversight. How this clinic of horrors wasn't outed earlier is beyond me. If there were complaints and evidence (even deaths!) stemming back multiple years, how did the authorities not take a greater interest in this?

Quoting babybus (Reply 3):
I hate to wave my Christian flag but you can now see why we are so against abortion. Some people have complete disregard for life. Life is a precious gift.

As to suggest that non-Christians don't have an appreciation for life? I find it difficult to understand how you equate the murder of a breathing baby to aborting a fetus. Your definition of abortion is far too broad.

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 26):
My post (Rep 21) was in reference to mt99's Rep 4 which I think was uncalled for and offensive (unless I took it the wrong way). I, maybe incorrectly, took it as flame-bait and was considering suggesting a deletion of that reply.

I think mt99 makes a great point. Christians are vehemently anti-abortion and often counsel women to give birth and give the children up for adoption, yet these exact same Christians are against loving gay couple being able to adopt these children, usually resulting in far too many children having to spend their youth in the system. The Christians want to have it both ways, but it's just not realistic as we can plainly see.

His comment wasn't an attack on religious people, it was an attack on their non sequitur way of thinking.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:12 pm

WestJet747 (Rep 33): Yes, I see your point now. I knee-jerked at mt99's reference to gay couples as a slam and responded accordingly. To your point about some (most?) Christians being rather prejudiced and in many cases hypocritical to these subjects, as a Christian I also agree with you. best wishes...jack
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:09 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
Now that he is caught and will most certainly be found guilty, someone needs to look very hard at the Department of Health and put some boots to asses for the oversight. How this clinic of horrors wasn't outed earlier is beyond me.

It's my belief that this is one of the major reasons why this story didn't gain as much national traction as it would have normally. Besides it being about abortion, infanticide and operating room negligence (not really a combination that lends itself to cohesive soundbites), the enduring story is a local one.

The multiple failures at the Penn. Dept. of Health just isn't going to play long-term in either Peoria or Poughkeepsie. But the far right media kicking the shins of liberal media always plays well to their target markets, so that aspect of the story gets the spotlight across their airwaves where you've got well-scripted characters who constantly need new material to fill that need. Note that what the far right is covering isn't just the trial, but a narrow subsection of the media's coverage as well, at times with more vigor than the basic story itself. That says a lot about their "outrage".

The Atlantic picked up on the 'covering the media' aspect of this a couple of weeks ago, and their Conor Friedersdorf did a column with his 14 Theories for Why Kermit Gosnell's Case Didn't Get More Media Attention

1) Matt Frost's Unified Theory
2) The Poor, Black Victims Theory
3) We Treat Newborn Deaths As If They Don't Matter As Much As Kid Deaths
4) The Covering-Abortion-Is-Miserable Theory
5) The Gag Order Matters
6) Politicians Drive Political News
7) Journalists Live in a Pro-Choice Bubble
8) The Media Has a Bias Against Graphic Descriptions and Imagery
9) Pro-Choice Journalists Are Willfully Ignoring the Story to Avoid Giving an Advantage to Pro-Lifers
10) Ideological Bias Distorts the Crusades Journalists Are Willing to Embark Upon
11) The Case Doesn't Map onto a Specific Legislative Debate
12) Conservatives Are Engaged in a "Work the Refs" Hustle 
13) Horrific as It Is, This Case Doesn't Speak to Anything Larger About Abortion
14) Lots of Horrific Stories Don't Get Covered

13 other theories than the one that the far right unsurprisingly latched onto. None of the others in the list would sell much soap.

One of the saddest aspects of this case is that it became a talking point to throw more stones in the media, rather than giving those who lost their lives or were unnecessarily injured their day.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:07 pm

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 32):
By neice was born at 24 weeks. She's doing just fine at the ripe old age of 5. Late term abortions, like the ones he performed are common beyond this point.

Later than 24 weeks? Good grief...  AFAIK, the latest time in Germany is after 12 weeks, which is already well beyond the end of embryogenesis (i.e. quite late, IMHO). After that, at least the doctor commits a felony while the woman doesn't until week 22. There is another exception for cases where the pregnancy endangers the health or even life of the pregnant woman, but that is, of course, an entirely different story.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:23 am

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 32):
It is truly amazing the case has progressed for this long with the media largely ignoring it. It speaks volumes.

Agreed. At least some media insiders didn't make a secret about their reasons for ignoring the story.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
I was eating while I watched those news clips and I had to stop. What that man did actually made me feel sick.

Sorry I should have warned you all about the graphic nature of the story.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
Now that he is caught and will most certainly be found guilty, someone needs to look very hard at the Department of Health and put some boots to asses for the oversight.

Doesn't Planned Parenthood offer abortions for free anyway? Why did this ever happen?
What's even crazier is that 'Doctor' Kermit Gosnell thinks he's done nothing wrong.   
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AeroWesty
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:47 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 37):
At least some media insiders didn't make a secret about their reasons for ignoring the story.

LOL, right, people like Anderson Cooper who ran a whole segment on it, just totally ignored the story.  

The story has been reported on factually in the mainstream press since 2011, and covered intensely as a local story in the Philadelphia area, just like any other story. Continually saying it isn't being covered, doesn't make it so.

Look at this thread itself. No one knows where to go with it. Is it abortion? Is it infanticide? Is it malpractice? It just isn't a story that easily lends itself to a national story for a host of reasons, but it is getting coverage.
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na
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:53 am

Absolutely horrible. Good Lord. I wont have a look at those videolinks.
I am not against abortion in the first two months when life is just a bunch of cells, but later, I think its murder.
 
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:53 am

Relax Westy.
No one is saying that it was totally ignored. Some think that a case this serious deserves more attention.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 38):
Look at this thread itself. No one knows where to go with it. Is it abortion? Is it infanticide? Is it malpractice?

For some of us, it's pretty clear. It's murder.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:59 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 40):
Some think that a case this serious deserves more attention.

Well this is your thread, and you've made the point that this murder story hasn't been covered because it would disrupt into an abortion debate that the left doesn't want. What level of attention do you believe would be appropriate for a murder case? Who would you like to be covering it, and from what angles?
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Superfly
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:08 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41):

Dude, are you here to have a discussion about the trial or simply take me on for starting the thread? Which one is it?

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 41):
you've made the point that this murder story hasn't been covered because it would disrupt into an abortion debate that the left doesn't want.

I can only go by what they say. Marc Lamont Hill said it, not me. Their career based around news and they have a better understanding of how the public would react to news stories. They're the experts.
Personally I don't see how this would compromise abortion rights as Marc Lamont Hill says it would but then again, he works in the broadcast industry and perhaps has a better understand about these things than me & you.
Nice attempt to divert and 'shut down' the discussion.   
Most of us here rather discuss the what happened in his clinic and how long it was able to carry on.

[Edited 2013-04-26 03:38:38]
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:18 am

Quoting aflyingkiwi (Reply 17):
Question for you. What is the stage when it doesn't become abortion?

The key thing here is that they were able to survive outside the womb, that makes them no longer a parasitic lifeform which can only survive in the womb.

As others have said, this is about infanticide and medical malpractice not abortion.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:28 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Dude, are you here to have a discussion about the trial are simply take me on for starting the thread?

Relax, dude. I've asked very simple questions. I think the murders are horrible. I also think that there needs to be something done about what drove these women to this clinic.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
Most of us here rather discuss the what happened in his clinic and how long it was able to carry on.

I've got a number of questions about that myself. Even in the local coverage I've read, there isn't a whole lot I've found on the subject. There was a grand jury report that brought the charges against Gosnell, but it doesn't appear that they brought any charges against the Dept. of Health or that anyone in the state government has done anything as a result of the report.
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Superfly
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:48 am

Quoting na (Reply 39):
Absolutely horrible. Good Lord. I wont have a look at those videolinks.

Those were the most rated G links I could find. Some reports get really graphic.

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 43):
The key thing here is that they were able to survive outside the womb, that makes them no longer a parasitic lifeform which can only survive in the womb.

  

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 44):
I also think that there needs to be something done about what drove these women to this clinic.

Agreed.
Does't Planned Parenthood offer free abortions to poor women?
I was wondering if these are women that changed their mind late term in their pregnancy.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:54 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 45):
Does't Planned Parenthood offer free abortions to poor women?

Nope. Free birth control in some places, but not free abortions.

In-Clinic Abortion Procedures
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Superfly
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:56 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 46):
Nope. Free birth control in some places, but not free abortions.

In-Clinic Abortion Procedures

Thanks for the link.
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Fri Apr 26, 2013 4:33 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 46):

No, and as I mentioned in reply 27, the government won't pay for abortion either. This was one of the big drivers behind Gosnell's ability to do this. In the "open market" he was able to charge less than other abortion providers.
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Superfly
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RE: Abortion Dr. Gosnell Trial; Murder Of Newborns

Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:26 pm

Quoting OA412 (Reply 48):
In the "open market" he was able to charge less than other abortion providers.

Was their no oversight? In his mind, he thinks he's done no wrong and has pleaded 'not guilty'. He honestly thinks he was operating within the law.
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