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WarRI1
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Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 1:26 am

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/0...th-warren-student-loans-91079.html



I think this is a good idea, she is correct. If we can float the big banks, why cannot we help the students of this country? This is so typical, give it to the big guys, screw everybody else. The price of education is absurd in this country for the middleclass. My niece is starting in the Fall, she has top, top grades, she is receiving a big discount because of student aid at a Boston School. When I heard the figures for her loan, I was shocked. It is mind boggling to me. How the hell she will pay it back is beyond me.

[Edited 2013-05-11 18:27:56]
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 2:21 am

I also agree with Sen. Warren's statement. Why should those responsible for almost crashing the economy (and saved by the government) get loans at comfortable rates and make billions in profits while a student, with the potential of becoming the next Einstein of a particular field, get higher rates?

To me, it sounds like the system actually punishes those who want to succeed while rewarding those who make risky decisions.

Not only students, but Average Joe should also be able to get a loan at a comfortable rate as well.

I've taken only 3 loans totaling up to $7k so I'm not in a dire position where debt will be unmanageable, but I do think about many others who may take up 3 times that amount to finish perhaps just one academic year. Is the system fair then?

[Edited 2013-05-11 19:42:44]
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Mir
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 2:35 am

Keep in mind that high student debt hurts the economy because graduates stuck with today's lower salaries aren't going to be purchasing as much if they have loans to pay off. They're not going to be buying homes, they're not going to be buying cars, they're not going to be taking the risk of getting more loans to start a business. None of that is good for the economy.

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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 2:48 am

I'm all for better student loans, lower rates and more of a grace period. Not an economics expert, but student loans seem like a very good investment. It's not a way for the government to make money but a way to give students a chance to go to college and get a good education.

Never had to get loans, but I'm surprised at some of the rates my friends are paying for them. Very high
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 3:44 am

I don't even know why this is a debate. I honestly do not know what justification there is for not lowering student loan rates.

The only justifications I can come up with are so cynical, I'm afraid to voice them.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 3:50 am

Maybe they are trying to deincentivize going to college in lieu of the burgeoning manufacturing jobs that will return once the CIA has successfully completed Chinese economic sabotage.   
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 4:48 am

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 5):
Maybe they are trying to deincentivize going to college...
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 5:18 am

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 5):
Maybe they are trying to deincentivize going to college

I know you are being sarcastic, but I think it is important to promote alternatives to college (not by jacking up student loan rates or anything.) You can lead an extremely successful life without going to college and college just isn't for everyone. I'd like to see trade schools and other programs promoted more
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 5:33 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Not an economics expert, but student loans seem like a very good investment.

Well, I am an Economics expert (such as they exist, I have degrees in the subject and I work in the field). And the flood of money into the system via student loans is the greatest factor responsible for the sky-rising costs of tuition and everything involved with going to college.

When I was a student, very few people got student loans. If you came from a poor family who could not help pay for school, you worked towards getting some sort of scholarship - there were quite a lot of them around. If you were a diligent student, you would go to school. Athletic scholarships were pretty rare - academic scholarships were the norm. There were a huge number of them. My grandmother established such a scholarship years ago specifically for good students from poor families from around the town she grew up in - and there were hundreds of thousands of such scholarships.

The scholarship fund (for which I am one of the administrators) used to offer full 4-year scholarships for two new students every year, and we got about 50 applications per year (most of whom obviously applied to many scholarships). Now we only get a ten or twelve per year - students aren't bothering with the scholarship route, they go the easy route of student loans, since they aren't means-tested anymore, and "federally guaranteed".

If this sounds suspiciously like sub-prime loans, that's exactly what it is like. And just like the sub-prime loans and the explosion of cheap-money mortgages caused the prices of homes to climb to record heights (before they crashed), the same thing is happening with college tuitions. Make more money available, the price goes up.

Imagine what would happen if the Federal government announced that it was getting out of the student loan business completely, shutting down sallie mae. I'd bet that (after a lot of screaming), college tuitions would drop by 50%, maybe more, in a matter of months, as Universities try to fill empty seats. Of course cuts would have to be made in some of the more extravagant expenditures universities have gotten used to, like fancy new stadiums.

[Edited 2013-05-11 22:34:22]
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MaverickM11
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 6:15 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
If this sounds suspiciously like sub-prime loans, that's exactly what it is like.

   That was my first thought. Isn't student loan debt already unmaneageable and growing?

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
The price of education is absurd in this country for the middleclass.

I think part (most?) of the problem is there is so much money, including loans, aid, and scholarships, chasing a relatively inelastic supply of school desks. If anything, perhaps schools should have access to lower interest to increase capacity--that will go a lot farther to reducing costs than giving students more money to chase a slowly growing supply of spots.

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
If we can float the big banks, why cannot we help the students of this country?

I understand the frustration with banks but this is just a cheap soundbite that doesn't take into account the consequences of boosting demand for education without doing much for the supply side--schools will just raise prices faster and fill the same number of spots.
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einsteinboricua
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 6:18 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
I'd bet that (after a lot of screaming), college tuitions would drop by 50%, maybe more, in a matter of months, as Universities try to fill empty seats.

Maybe...or maybe some staff might be cut as well while keeping the tuition at the same level. I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.
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MaverickM11
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 6:31 am

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Maybe...or maybe some staff might be cut as well while keeping the tuition at the same level. I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.

I don't think they'd have a choice, plus the high end universities are keenly aware of the disconnect between the quality of their education (it ain't THAT good) and the price. As any economist will tell you, a $2000 state university education might be 2x as good as a $1000 community college education, but a $60,000 Ivy League education isn't 60x as good as your local community college. Tuition is completely out of whack and I think it has to do with so much money chasing so few seats. I think there will some major changes forthcoming in the industry as a) people realize they're not getting what they pay for (and can't afford ultimately) and b) a lot of education content moves online, on-job, and starts to eliminate some of the less-than-necessary requirements--ie did I really neec to take that West African literature course if I'm an engineering major?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Imagine what would happen if the Federal government announced that it was getting out of the student loan business completely, shutting down sallie mae. I'd bet that (after a lot of screaming), college tuitions would drop by 50%, maybe more, in a matter of months, as Universities try to fill empty seats. Of course cuts would have to be made in some of the more extravagant expenditures universities have gotten used to, like fancy new stadiums.

   Universities are building ridiculous new facilities that have nothing to do with educaiton to woo students, because they can pay, regardless of the source or whether they'll ever pay back that source over their lifetime.
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BMI727
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 6:31 am

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
I think this is a good idea, she is correct.

Education is one of the relatively few things government should actually help fund to a significant degree. That's how you wean people off welfare. Give them the chance at education and don't subsidize the inability or unwillingness to take the opportunity.

That said, her idea seems awfully arbitrary. There are plenty of reasons why student loans should not be treated like Federal Reserve loans to large banks.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Well, I am an Economics expert (such as they exist, I have degrees in the subject and I work in the field).

The primary difference between an economist and a fortune teller is the office.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
If this sounds suspiciously like sub-prime loans, that's exactly what it is like. And just like the sub-prime loans and the explosion of cheap-money mortgages caused the prices of homes to climb to record heights (before they crashed), the same thing is happening with college tuitions. Make more money available, the price goes up.

The cost goes up because people are willing to pay it, and people are willing to pay it because they don't really have to pay it and can finance it instead.

And there is even more societal pressure to go to college than there is to own a house, which doesn't help. People feel they need a college degree, and employers will demand it even if it's totally unnecessary simply because they can.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.

I want to say that at least one (Harvard?) actually has policies in place that forbid their students to take on debt. It will be paid for out of pocket in combination with student aid packages. I doubt the big name schools would be affected too much by changes in government loan policies as they all have large endowments.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 7:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
People feel they need a college degree, and employers will demand it even if it's totally unnecessary simply because they can.

I think that's starting to change slowly but surely. I've definitely seen a lot of managers that once upon a time would require an MBA regardless start to question why they do so, never mind that the premium companies pay for it is almost never worth it. Furthermore I know several airlines that would recruit at Ivy Leagues for relatively rote positions, that are starting to shift to more reasonable schools for any number of reasons. As I mentioned I really think we're on the cusp of people really starting to question the value of the education they're paying for, both as students and as employers.
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QFA380
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 7:04 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):

Keep in mind that high student debt hurts the economy because graduates stuck with today's lower salaries aren't going to be purchasing as much if they have loans to pay off. They're not going to be buying homes, they're not going to be buying cars, they're not going to be taking the risk of getting more loans to start a business. None of that is good for the economy.

You realise that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever don't you? It only hurts the future economy, but that is the same with all debt, including (particularly!) government debt. All you're doing is bringing future consumption forwards, the idea hopefully is that by bringing the consumption of education to today rather than consumption of cars tomorrow, you'll be able to earn a return on that investment/consumption in the future to allow you to still consume cars in the future. Naturally you earn no return when you do a worthless liberal arts degree, that becomes just deadweight loss. No better or worse than a company that goes bankrupt.

The interest those individuals pay is for a return for past investment of the people giving them the loan who will now consume or reinvest that interest (good for the economy) along with the former students consumption in the form of the interest spread which goes to bank as a service rendered.

Debt is only bad if the return you're getting for consuming in the past rather than the present is lower than the costs of incurring that debt. That happens to be the case for many individuals today, that is not the government's fault that individuals took on debt that did not offer enough of a benefit to cover the costs.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
And just like the sub-prime loans and the explosion of cheap-money mortgages caused the prices of homes to climb to record heights (before they crashed), the same thing is happening with college tuitions.

Just like the sub-prime mortgages and a house, the culture is reinforcing the notion that a college education is an absolute must have to the complete ignorance of the degree's value relative to price. This is only delaying the bubble and making the crash even worse.
 
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 12:59 pm

Quoting WarRI1 (Thread starter):
If we can float the big banks, why cannot we help the students of this country? This is so typical, give it to the big guys, screw everybody else. The price of education is absurd in this country for the middleclass

I agree that the price of education in this country is absurd, but the federal student loan policy is part of the problem and enables schools to keep raising prices.

Quoting Mir (Reply 2):

Keep in mind that high student debt hurts the economy because graduates stuck with today's lower salaries aren't going to be purchasing as much if they have loans to pay o

Yep. There's going to be a drag effect for quite some time because of structural shifts in the economy as increases in tuition have outpaced both inflation and average salary earned by college graduates. So students are not only have more debt (nominally) they will also be repaying that debt for a longer period of time because of lower salaries.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
It's not a way for the government to make money but a way to give students a chance to go to college and get a good education.

That's fine, but college isn't exactly the right choice for everybody. In some cases, it might be financially better to learn a trade. Being a plumber or electrician might be less prestigious than having a college degree, but it also means less debt, and financial stability.

I'm fine with the government providing some sort of financial support to enable students to attend college and acquire a higher education, but the current policy is just way too lenient. Student loans for higher education (not just college--think professional and graduate school as well) are too easy to obtain, and a whole cottage industry of for-profit educational institutions have sprouted up to take advantage of this free money provide by the federal government. The problem is that this policy in some ways hurts the same people it is designed to help--look at the number of students who are now burdened with debt who drop out before receiving their degree, or even after receiving their degree, wind up in jobs where they have no hope of ever repaying the debt. Meanwhile, the higher education administrators at these universities have
no incentive to reform or make their educational offerings more cost effective because they are getting their money up-front from the federal government.

Though the federal government currently makes a profit on student loans doesn't mean that it is always going to--student loan default rates are going to increase, but it will be a delayed effect since final maturity doesn't occur until 30 years or so (and then it's wiped out, but you still have to pay taxes on it).

Just because you can go to college (or pursue that additional graduate degree) doesn't mean that you should.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
And the flood of money into the system via student loans is the greatest factor responsible for the sky-rising costs of tuition and everything involved with going to college.

Not just college. Professional school and graduate school as well.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Make more money available, the price goes up.

See law schools, whose current crisis re student debt is seen as a bellwether for the rest of higher education. It is worth checking out "Failing Law Schools" by Brian Tamanaha.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
I'd bet that (after a lot of screaming), college tuitions would drop by 50%, maybe more, in a matter of months, as Universities try to fill empty seats

Law schools are facing a problem similar to that right now. Students have wised up and realized that the cost-benefit analysis of attending law school isn't worth it anymore given how poor the job market is for JDs. The problem is the administrative bloat at many of these schools that prohibits them from effectively rationalizing their costs (since their current cost model was based on the boom years of the 2000s) while tuition revenues are steadily decreasing. A temporary alternative is to increase overseas student recruitment.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.

Tuition has nothing to do with prestige at the elite schools--elite schools get their reputation for their academic strength, not cost of tuition. If cost of tuition was a factor re prestige, than George Washington University (most expensive tuition in the nation) would be seen as an elite academic institution on par with the Ivies, Stanford, Cal Tech, MIT, Duke, et. al--but it's not.

In fact, many of the elite schools are doing the exact opposite--trying to make it more affordable for students from lower income families to attend, not by reducing sticker price, but by trying to minimize the amount of undergraduate debt that students take on.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
I want to say that at least one (Harvard?) actually has policies in place that forbid their students to take on debt.

Not exactly--but a handful of schools, like Harvard, Yale, Princeton (and I believe Stanford as well) have changed their policies so that all financial aid handed out by the school itself directly to the students is in the form of grants, not loans.
 
fr8mech
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 1:48 pm

On the surface, this looks like a good idea, but, I like others understand that the increase in tuitions can be traced, in part, back to the availability of loans and grants and scholarships. When a school (or any other business, for that matter (see the discussion on medical provider charges)), is guarenteed money, why not raise prices?

Do we hold the schools accountable for their graduation rates? I guess some parents do when they make a choice as to where they send their kids. But, does the government, who underwrites these loans and many grants and scholarship, do they really look hard at schools and see if they're serving the communities they purport to serve?

Look, I'm probably on of the few conservatives that would love to consider higher education as a "public good". In my opinion, the more educated a populace, the better off that society and economy are, as a whole. Those folks will tend to contribute more and consume (from the public dole) less. But, in reality, as soon as we decide that higher education should be free, the costs of said education will explode. The colleges and universities will see this as more free money and begin to "compete" for this free money. The free money comes in the form of students.

To attract more students, they will try to get the best looking campus, the best faculty, the best sports team, the best graduation rate, the best (fill in the blank). All this costs money, so they will raise the tuition they charge the government on a per student basis. It's just creates a vicious circle.

This happens now, but the market provides some restraint to the costs. If the government removes that market restraint by cheapening the cost of money or elimintaing it completely....

Without oppressive governmental control and oversight, I just don't see how costs would be controlled.

Lowering the interest rate, and make the money cheaper, is just a few steps removed from that.

As pointed out, you'll just create a new bubble.

How about we do this:

If you take student loans, your first year is at whatever the prevailing rate is. Second year, you lose some off the rate, assuming you maintain, say a 'B' average. Third year a bit more...and so on. This incentivizes the student to perform in class and provides them with some return for their performance.

Of course, we have to find a way to ensure that the school doesn't just inflate the grades in order to keep the student in school and continue to rake in that tuition.

Is the cost of money too high for students? Maybe. But, what will happen if we lower that cost? What happens anytime the government throws around free or cheap money? You just have to look at the mortgage crisis to answer that question.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Maybe...or maybe some staff might be cut as well while keeping the tuition at the same level. I cannot imagine an Ivy League university or others like MIT dropping tuition just to accommodate students. That would be seen as a loss of prestige.


That's probably the best and most insightful indictment of higher education in this thread. Prestige over students.
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Mir
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 2:16 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
It only hurts the future economy, but that is the same with all debt, including (particularly!) government debt.

Debt on its own doesn't hurt the economy, debt that you can't pay off hurts the economy. If you go into debt in order to start up a business, but start turning a profit after a few years and make enough to pay back the loan plus interest and have lots left over, then the economy will be better off for it, since a business was created that otherwise wouldn't have been.

The problem is that while productivity has gone up and education requirements for even menial positions have climbed, salaries have been stagnant. So people need to spend money on the college education, but they're not being compensated accordingly so that they can pay off the loans. And since the government can't do anything about the compensation, something needs to be done about the loans.

The are, of course, lots of areas in which higher education funding could be improved. But reducing student loan interest rates is a big one.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 14):
that is not the government's fault that individuals took on debt that did not offer enough of a benefit to cover the costs.

It may not be the government's fault, but it is the government's (and everyone else's) problem.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
But, in reality, as soon as we decide that higher education should be free, the costs of said education will explode.

I'm not so sure - I don't see the costs of education in other countries exploding, and college tends to be less expensive there than it is here.

-Mir
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fr8mech
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 2:50 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 17):
I'm not so sure - I don't see the costs of education in other countries exploding, and college tends to be less expensive there than it is here.

I'm fairly ignorant of higher education in other countries. Questions:

How are the educators' (teachers, administrators, etc.) salaries determined? Basically, are the salaries capped by the government?

Are the universities owned or controlled by the government?

Who owns the buildings and property?

How is tuition handled?

Who, if anyone is held accoutable to the schools' success?

The basic gist of what I'm getting at with my questions is: do the schools in Europe operate in a free market where the school is free to set policy, tuittion, fees and salaries or are those facets controlled, in whole or in part, by the various governments?
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AeroWesty
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 3:04 pm

While schools for required education are lacking funds, shouldn't we be directing money there, then letting the free market determine rates for college loans, you know, like people say about that other elective in life, cable TV.
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StuckInCA
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 3:18 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
When I was a student, very few people got student loans.

When did you go to college? The cost of going to college has risen as a vastly higher rate than average consumer prices. I'm sure you know that though.

http://inflationdata.com/Inflation/I...n_Articles/Education_Inflation.asp


When my parents went to school it was possible to work a relatively simple job (the sort college students typically work during the school year) and pay for school.

I barely was able to pay for my school which was relatively affordable (University of CA and Cal Poly SLO), but I worked full time each summer and as much as possible during the school year earning far more than minimum wage.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 3:36 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 20):
The cost of going to college has risen as a vastly higher rate than average consumer prices.

The greater point being made though is that all of this cheap money is being used by colleges to finance projects which don't necessarily have a direct effect upon higher learning. That's an argument I understand.

I'm positive it isn't this simple, but it appears that colleges and universities are saddling graduates with copious sums of debt to earn a degree, which may or may not be of use in the workplace, then not using the fiscal discipline one would expect with those funds.

I don't know a whole lot about financing a college education though, quite honestly, so I've an open mind about it, and willing to listen to pro and con arguments about Sen. Warren's proposal.
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fr8mech
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 3:42 pm

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 20):
When did you go to college? The cost of going to college has risen as a vastly higher rate than average consumer prices. I'm sure you know that though


Ask yourself why that's happened. What has happened in the last 20 or 30 years? Money has become cheaper and more widely available. The same thing that happened in the mortgage bubble.

The schools (and I'm generalizing) have been able to increase their tuition rates at higher rates than the average consumer prices because the money they're receiving from the students is cheaper (to the students) and the schools, with the help of the government have been able to sell a four year college degree is essential to being successful in life.

Yes, the world needs ditch diggers, but it also needs plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics, etc. These are all fairly well paying jobs that do not require higher education.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 3:58 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
The basic gist of what I'm getting at with my questions is: do the schools in Europe operate in a free market where the school is free to set policy, tuittion, fees and salaries or are those facets controlled, in whole or in part, by the various governments?

I don't know about most other European countries that much, but around here Finland universities are entirely state owned and funded, there really aren't any significant tuition fees. Thus everybody with good enough abilities and motivation has same chances to get university level education no matter how much money they/their parents have. Overall this system seems to work very well, I'm glad we have it.

I think Sweden, Norway and Denmark have more or less similar system.
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fr8mech
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 4:13 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
I don't know about most other European countries that much, but around here Finland universities are entirely state owned and funded, there really aren't any significant tuition fees.

And the salaries?

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
Overall this system seems to work very well, I'm glad we have it.

As I've said, I wouldn't be opposed to it, but quite simply, it goes completely against our economic system and our system of government.

I'm a firm believer that education should be considered a public good. That means government control of all the economic facets of the system: salaries, tuition rates, fees, properties, etc.

It would probably need a constitutional amendment. And, I really don't think I'm being melodramatic about it.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 4:18 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 15):
That's fine, but college isn't exactly the right choice for everybody. In some cases, it might be financially better to learn a trade. Being a plumber or electrician might be less prestigious than having a college degree, but it also means less debt, and financial stability.

Yes I agree, I mentioned that in reply 7. I've made that point to a few people. Nothing wrong with not being smart enough or suited for college, they have knowledge in other areas and are just as smart as anyone else... just not in calculus or literature. But they can sure tell you what is wrong with your car when I have no idea, for example

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Look, I'm probably on of the few conservatives that would love to consider higher education as a "public good".

I'm with you on this... strictly adhering to any ideology is not good which is why I'm now hesitant to label myself as anything because I don't fit in any category's ideology (any more.) I think education is extremely important to a country, healthcare is now doable if done correctly, but that is for another thread.

I don't think, however, just throwing money at it will solve the education problem. We need to look at other countries' approaches and decide as a country which direction to go... why reinvent the wheel? I'm sure there are some good programs out there that aren't as, pardon the stereotype, "socialist" ask completely free, but still offer a chance for all kids to go to college if they apply themselves and still maintain a bit of capitalist interests, which aren't completely bad if kept in check

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
Yes, the world needs ditch diggers, but it also needs plumbers, electricians, carpenters, mechanics, etc. These are all fairly well paying jobs that do not require higher education.

Exactly, but I think more could be done to promote these programs or expand upon them. Hardly anyone I talk to really knows about them, I don't have a great knowledge on them myself, but it's perfect for those who hate Shakespeare and Calculus but are very competent mechanically and ambitious. Again, would love to see what some of our European friends do across the pond, I'm sure they have some good ideas
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 4:32 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
And the salaries?

Hmm I guess they are more or less government regulated too, at least I doubt there's any significant difference between salaries in our different universities, after all they are all more or less equally respected.
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BMI727
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 11):
Universities are building ridiculous new facilities that have nothing to do with educaiton to woo students, because they can pay, regardless of the source or whether they'll ever pay back that source over their lifetime.

To be fair, a lot of the crazy facilities being built are being built with donor money or by schools for which the sports actually are a major moneymaker. Football is a money pit for a lot of schools, but a gold mine for some. The palatial facilities are the exception rather than the rule.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Look, I'm probably on of the few conservatives that would love to consider higher education as a "public good". In my opinion, the more educated a populace, the better off that society and economy are, as a whole.

The government should be funding education because that is welfare. It's stupid that this country basically says that if you don't want to work in school that it's okay, we'll just give you a welfare check instead.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
I'm a firm believer that education should be considered a public good. That means government control of all the economic facets of the system: salaries, tuition rates, fees, properties, etc.

It doesn't need to go that far. There just needs to be some government oversight of how colleges operate. Send government inspectors to take stock of the costs, facilities, academics, etc. of each college that wants to allow its students to get federal aid. Then, the government can be more liberal about giving money to students wanting to attend schools that score well and be tighter about funding students at schools where the education is a worse value.



[Edited 2013-05-12 10:21:19]
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
Send government inspectors to take stock of the costs, facilities, academics, etc. of each college that wants to allow its students to get federal aid.

Shouldn't the free market be allowed to reign? Higher education is fully elective.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
It doesn't need to go that far.


I disagree. If we decide it's a public good, then we need to treat it as such. Just like the military, full control by the government, so that salaries are controlled and costs are controlled. Of course, the military isn't the absolute best model to emulate, especially on the cost side, but that's my position. Of course, it's also a pipe dream; can you imagine the court challenges when the Department of Education says a tenured (yeah, let's get rid of that) history professor's salary should be 'X'?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
To be fair, a lot of the crazy facilities being built are being built with donor money


My alma mater just built a Tuscan inspired grand entry arch. I was speechless until I found out that the entire thing was donated by an alumnus. What are you going to do? I would rather have seen him donate the money towards the school's general fund, but it's his money to spend.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
It's stupid that this country basically says that if you don't want to work in school that it's okay, we'll just give you a welfare check instead.


Once again, we are incentivizing bad behaviour.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25):
I don't think, however, just throwing money at it will solve the education problem.


Nope, in this case, I thinking choking off the cheap money would be a start. But, the schools have to respond by reducing tuition and expenses. Whether they want to cut salaries or maybe some programs is up to them, but they will have to respond to the diminishing supply of cash.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 25):
Exactly, but I think more could be done to promote these programs or expand upon them.


Agreed. My brother-in-law barely passed high school, joined The Army and pretty much failed there (got in with the wrong crowd) and got booted out. We pretty much saw him spiralling into a real crappy life with no real prospects. He got "lucky" and got a girl pregnant, who he married. She was the best thing that happened to him. She encouraged him to go to trade school and now he's an apprentice electrician and is doing incredibly well for the position he was in just 7 years ago.

We, as a society, need to make sure those opportunities are widely available.

Quoting pvjin (Reply 26):
Hmm I guess they are more or less government regulated too,

That's my point.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 5:53 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 23):
I don't know about most other European countries that much, but around here Finland universities are entirely state owned and funded, there really aren't any significant tuition fees. Thus everybody with good enough abilities and motivation has same chances to get university level education no matter how much money they/their parents have. Overall this system seems to work very well, I'm glad we have it.

It has another set of features as well.

- Unlike in America, where students are pushed by social pressures to "go to college, or be branded a failure" European state-funded universities are not considered the only path to success. You have decent apprenticeship programs and other paths to a decent career.

- Such universities are not as tolerant of goofball degrees. The universities in Finland for instance allocate their resources so that they produce skills that society needs. For every 100 scientists and engineers, they might allocate only 10 for sociologists and 18th century literature majors. In America students are given money (getting themselves into a mountain of debt - but a 20-year old does not understand what that means yet) to get a degree in whatever they are interested in (translation: subjects that seem easy to pass, justifying staying in college and going to all those cool parties and avoiding entering "the real world" as long as possible. That's how you get huge numbers of people getting degrees in Art History, Literature, Philosophy, or African-American Studies - jobs that are virtually worthless outside academia, and will ensure only a job as a Subway Sandwich Artist.)

What we are seeing in America is the result of several generations of propaganda (you MUST go to college) plus the government policy of pushing loans onto kids who really don't know what debt means - their only exposure to debt before this was maybe an Exxon credit card with a $100 limit.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 28):
Shouldn't the free market be allowed to reign? Higher education is fully elective.

For practical purposes it isn't. Besides, it fits with the liberal desires for egalitarian society. I don't care who your parents are, if you show you have the ability the government will pay for you to go to school. The educational system is your welfare, take it or leave it. The government should no longer subsidize poor decisions.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
Just like the military, full control by the government, so that salaries are controlled and costs are controlled.

Under that model the universities would be contractors. But the basic difference is that the military is working for the country, but education is working for the students. They are the ultimate beneficiaries of the system, not the government.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 29):
Of course, it's also a pipe dream; can you imagine the court challenges when the Department of Education says a tenured (yeah, let's get rid of that) history professor's salary should be 'X'?

Tenure is a piss poor way to do business, and really accomplishes the opposite of what it's supposed to. But so is a blanket salary for certain positions. Having been there and done that, I can tell you that not all professors are created equal.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 30):
In America students are given money (getting themselves into a mountain of debt - but a 20-year old does not understand what that means yet) to get a degree in whatever they are interested in (translation: subjects that seem easy to pass, justifying staying in college and going to all those cool parties and avoiding entering "the real world" as long as possible.

I don't agree that the government should be pushing students one way or another. However, expanded government aid for students should be largely in the form of loans as it's a terrible idea to let people sit at the table and play with government money. Students need a skin in the game.

The government should manage such things like a bank: how well will it pay off? That should be a major consideration when scoring degree programs for government support.
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us330
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
That's probably the best and most insightful indictment of higher education in this thread. Prestige over students.

Great article looking at a case study of such behavior: http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/fea...ty-fights-its-rich-kid-reputation/

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
it goes completely against our economic system and our system of government.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
That means government control of all the economic facets of the system: salaries, tuition rates, fees, properties, etc.

Here's part of the problem--the prevalence of private higher education in this country, whose establishment (Harvard in in 1636) preceded the founding of the nation itself.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
Then, the government can be more liberal about giving money to students wanting to attend schools that score well and be tighter about funding students at schools where the education is a worse value.

The biggest offenders, in my opinion, are not the state universities or public universities, which can still be bargains compared to private universities. It's lower-tier private colleges/universities that charge nearly as much as top-tier universities (and the students that take out debt to attend them) that are the main problem. I'd agree that the government needs to be much more proactive at monitoring students at these institutions, and maybe consider ending federal loans for private higher education altogether. There really isn't an accountability mechanism for private universities--at least one that doesn't respond rapidly to changing conditions--whereas public universities are at least technically accountable to the various states that they are located in.

The ideal solution would be some way of forcing universities to have more skin in the game--right now, they get all of their money up front from loans.
 
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting us330 (Reply 32):
The biggest offenders, in my opinion, are not the state universities or public universities, which can still be bargains compared to private universities. It's lower-tier private colleges/universities that charge nearly as much as top-tier universities (and the students that take out debt to attend them) that are the main problem.

They are by far the worst offenders when it comes to bang for the buck. Small name, big price tag.

I'd propose a system to work roughly like this:

For students at a given institution to be eligible for federal student aid, the degree program needs to undergo a federal evaluation every several (probably not more than four) years. Between evaluations, the tuition should either be frozen or subject to only small increases not more than the inflation rate.

The evaluation should look at everything and be specific to every degree program, graduate and undergraduate. The government should be interested in what students learn, graduation rates, where students end up when they graduate, on campus facilities, local cost of living, earning potential of the degree, and so on in order for each degree program at each school to get a "bang for the buck" score.

Then the federal government should be more willing to offer better aid packages and lower interest rates for those degrees which present a better value. And certainly students and institutions would take notice.

As it is now, the system allows students to do the equivalent of getting a $50k loan for a used Civic.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 28):
Shouldn't the free market be allowed to reign?


Not if we decide that higher education is a public good.

What you seem to forget is that we are not allowing the free market to reign. The government is injecting cheap money into a system that doesn't need that money. So, what happens? The system finds ways to spend that money. They over-hire, they over-pay, they over-buy and then, in order to maintain this over-spending, they over-charge. But, that's not a problem, because simple and short-minded people like Elizabeth Warren exist to provide more cheap money to people that can't afford it.
That is the definition of a freaking economic bubble. Buy cheap things at a high price. Add in the cheap money and you have people who have no business buying into the bubble happily feeding it.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 28):
Higher education is fully elective.


You'd think so. But, what has the government, the schools, the teachers, the counselors, the parents, the grand-parents, the employers, the economists, etc. been telling the kids since the were old enough to sputter there first mono-syllabic babel? You gots to go to college!

Hell, I do it with my kids.

The schools have quietly and not so quietly fed this fiction and are the beneficiaries of this lie.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
They are the ultimate beneficiaries of the system, not the government.


I disagree, the ultimate beneficiary of a well educated, functioning, contributing person is society.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
The educational system is your welfare, take it or leave it.

Not my welfare. My family established a chair, or whatever it's called, at Cal Berkeley years ago for scholarships in a particular field of study. Talk about spending your kid's inheritance. (That drops me into the 'puts my money where my mouth is' class.)

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
What you seem to forget is that we are not allowing the free market to reign.

I'm not forgetting anything. I'm asking why we don't allow the free market to reign. The only two people I knew of my generation who took out college loans went bankrupt on them a few years after leaving school. Crazy. Now I'm reading that the government is making a profit on college loans. When is the gov't in the business of financing cheap money at a profit that in the end doesn't have a test on it for the appropriateness of its use?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Hell, I do it with my kids.

So even though you think it's wrong, you perpetuate it. A unique way of doing things, I must say.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 7:37 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
I disagree, the ultimate beneficiary of a well educated, functioning, contributing person is society.

Just because you have a degree or two does not make you well-educated. I've known people with Ivy League educations who were embarrassingly ignorant (paraphrasing the words of Ronald Reagan, "they know a lot of things that just ain't so"), and I've known people who never graduated High School (mainly older generation, but not all) who were highly knowledgeable and functional in fields of science, technology, economics, etc.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 7:43 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
Just because you have a degree or two does not make you well-educated.

You missed the "functioning, contributing" part of my mini-rant. You need all three for a college education to have paid off in a macro-economic, at least in my opinion.

A timely
[Edited 2013-05-12 12:46:06]
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 7:48 pm

Well, the linking screwed everything up in the above post. For some reason the linking isn't working. It's screwing everything up.

This is a timely article.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/daily...estment-former-132020890.html?vp=1

"The problem, Bennett says, is people going to second-tier schools, majoring in less-marketable liberal arts fields, and taking on debt to do so."
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
I disagree, the ultimate beneficiary of a well educated, functioning, contributing person is society.

That's exactly the sort of ass backwards, collectivist, liberal thinking that needs to die a quick and painful death.

School isn't for society, school is for the student. Students have to be there for themselves to be successful. Not for their parents, not because society says they should be, but because they believe it's the best for them.

The government should improve access to education. I don't care if your parents are in prison or are billionaires, you should be able to go as far through the educational system as your ability and work ethic can take you. If someone decides they'd rather have a baby and drop out of school, that's up to them. Just don't come around wondering where the welfare check is. The government should make sure the water is accessible, but whether people want to drink it is their business.

I never once thought I went to college to contribute to society, help mankind, or pay more tax to help the federal budget. I went to college because that's what you do to get paid so you can have the McMansion and nice car that you can park in the acres of parking lot at the local Walmart. I didn't go to college, stay late studying, or do any of that crap for my parents and I sure as hell didn't do it for the good of society. I did it for me.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
My family established a chair, or whatever it's called, at Cal Berkeley years ago

I'm sure they meant well anyway.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
School isn't for society, school is for the student. Students have to be there for themselves to be successful. Not for their parents, not because society says they should be, but because they believe it's the best for them.

Yup, they have to be succesful for themselves. But, their success should lead to a succesful society, in the end.


Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
I never once thought I went to college to contribute to society, help mankind, or pay more tax to help the federal budget.

Neither did I, but in the end (at least so far) my college education, among other things, has allowed me to earn a decent living, contribute to society, participate in the economy, etc. It is the ultimate result if followed through on, but it is not always, in fact I would say it is rarely the case that that folks go to school in order to "make the world better".

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
I did it for me.

So did I.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
That's exactly the sort of ass backwards, collectivist, liberal thinking that needs to die a quick and painful death.

I need to save that one...no one has ever even implied that I have liberal thinking.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
School isn't for society, school is for the student. Students have to be there for themselves to be successful. Not for their parents, not because society says they should be, but because they believe it's the best for them.

Why should my tax dollars go to helping the student?*

I fail to see why you're for government to stay out of almost everything except for education, which you have benefited off of, and a ton of defense spending, which would help you land a job at Lockheed or something.

It's either a big coincidence or you just base your ideology off what is best for you, with no other consistency. If your parents kicked you out and you couldn't support yourself with your retail job and had to resort to welfare, I have a feeling you'd be all of the sudden for it...

*I'm all for helping to fund education, I'm just posing the question
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us330
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 9:13 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
ecause simple and short-minded people like Elizabeth Warren exist to provide more cheap money to people that can't afford it.
That is the definition of a freaking economic bubble

I'd be fine with a modified approach--do it for the kids/adults that have already taken on the debt, but be much more restrictive in how you apply these new standards going forward to prevent the moral hazard problem from occurring and attempting to gradually deflate the bubble.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 35):
My family established a chair, or whatever it's called, at Cal Berkeley years ago for scholarships in a particular field of study
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
I'm sure they meant well anyway

Nothing wrong with that. That's private money, and people can spend it however the way they want it--and it's scholarship money (grants) so it doesn't contribute to the student reliance on federal loans. It's no different than any other private scholarship--and while Berkeley is certainly liberal, it's still a damn good school.
 
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 9:18 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 40):
Yup, they have to be succesful for themselves. But, their success should lead to a succesful society, in the end.

That's where liberal thinking gets derailed: too much "We the People" and not enough "I the person." You want an affluent town? Find a couple thousand affluent people.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 40):
I need to save that one...no one has ever even implied that I have liberal thinking

It's important to note that schools don't exist for society, they exist for the students. I don't give a rat's ass what some fifteen year old gets on his algebra test. He should, but I don't.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
Why should my tax dollars go to helping the student?*

Because that's the equalizer. People say welfare is needed to help people out of poverty but all it really does is make bad decisions pay off. The system should be set up for people to go as far as they want to with their ability and work ethic. All you can do is put the opportunity there for people, whether they take it is another matter entirely and not one anyone can control.

I don't want to give the impression that the government or educational system should be set up so that having money isn't an advantage, (the inheritance tax is a joke) as that isn't really fair to those who have money. It just needs to be so that not having money isn't a disadvantage.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
I fail to see why you're for government to stay out of almost everything except for education, which you have benefited off of, and a ton of defense spending, which would help you land a job at Lockheed or something.

Education is how you make sure the gap between rich and poor, or more importantly, the ability of the poor to become better off stays in check, without punishing success or rewarding idiocy.

Defense is just purely because 1) the landscape is changing whether anyone likes it or not, 2) winding down two major operations is going to lower costs anyway and 3) ten years of combat hasn't done any favors for the equipment.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
It's either a big coincidence or you just base your ideology off what is best for you, with no other consistency.

Yeah basically. It would be stupid to do otherwise.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
If your parents kicked you out and you couldn't support yourself with your retail job and had to resort to welfare, I have a feeling you'd be all of the sudden for it...

No I wouldn't be for it, but that's a moot point anyway.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
Because that's the equalizer. People say welfare is needed to help people out of poverty but all it really does is make bad decisions pay off. The system should be set up for people to go as far as they want to with their ability and work ethic. All you can do is put the opportunity there for people, whether they take it is another matter entirely and not one anyone can control.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
Education is how you make sure the gap between rich and poor, or more importantly, the ability of the poor to become better off stays in check, without punishing success or rewarding idiocy.

You do realize that is actually the argument for welfare, the way it's supposed to be and not the right wing's vision of getting people dependent on government. I'm not saying there isn't a ton of problems with it, but you're argument for the government getting involved in education can easily be molded into the welfare discussion. I mean, I guess everyone has their own opinion, but it doesn't seem very consistent

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
It's either a big coincidence or you just base your ideology off what is best for you, with no other consistency.

Yeah basically. It would be stupid to do otherwise.

Where I was getting at with that is instead of making up these eloquent arguments, you could just come out and say you're for it because it suits you. It would save a lot of time on these forums because the threads often devolve into you vs a bunch of posters  
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43):
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 41):
If your parents kicked you out and you couldn't support yourself with your retail job and had to resort to welfare, I have a feeling you'd be all of the sudden for it...

No I wouldn't be for it, but that's a moot point anyway.

But didn't you just say you were for whatever helps you out? I mean I guess I can get behind that even if I disagree, but your logic for what the government should and should not do is misleading... you argue out an ideology when in fact it's just what helps you out. See the disconnect I'm observing?
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Sun May 12, 2013 10:29 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
You do realize that is actually the argument for welfare, the way it's supposed to be and not the right wing's vision of getting people dependent on government.

Not really. You don't throw money at poor people, throw opportunity at them. If they don't want to put in the work that's fine, but they shouldn't expect the rest of us to subsidize that decision. There's no getting around the fact that at some point, the kids who were in class doing what they were supposed to end up paying for the kids who skipped to go get high. I'm not saying I have a problem with people just wanting to cruise through life with a joint and a Playstation, but I'm not willing to pay for it.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 44):
Where I was getting at with that is instead of making up these eloquent arguments, you could just come out and say you're for it because it suits you.

Diplomacy is the art of letting others have your way. Just because it helps me doesn't mean I'm wrong.
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Mon May 13, 2013 12:12 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 45):
Not really. You don't throw money at poor people, throw opportunity at them.

You don't have very much opportunity when you work two full time jobs and can hardly pay for food and bills. You don't have much opportunity when you're entire housing community is the slums and everyone resorts to crime, dragging you down with you. Have you ever talked to some dirt poor people?

We all have this idea that people on welfare are lazy and they want to be on government assistance forever. We also think that they can just "try harder" and get out of welfare. Well, that is very incorrect. There will always be scum abusing the system, and some welfare laws really do just throw money at people and not opportunity, but the good laws are there to create a situation where their heads can stay above water. You can't even think about what you are gonna do on the island if you're legs are tied to rocks and you are fighting for air.

What good are college incentives for people that can't even make it that far? You were blessed to have not had to worry about the crap poor people went through, your first actions as an adult were going to college where you were given your first opportunity to succeed. Growing up, you weren't given that option, you started off successful

Having slums and dirt poor people does nothing good for society, only harms it. And although you don't care about society, it ultimately does affect you negatively. We're not asking for an arm and a leg from you, just a bit, and the odds are, it will benefit you indirectly throughout your life
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StuckInCA
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Mon May 13, 2013 12:36 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 21):
The greater point being made though is that all of this cheap money is being used by colleges to finance projects which don't necessarily have a direct effect upon higher learning. That's an argument I understand.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
Ask yourself why that's happened. What has happened in the last 20 or 30 years? Money has become cheaper and more widely available. The same thing that happened in the mortgage bubble.

I see that point buried in there, but it was buried under a pretty thick mound of "back in my day" self-righteousness and, in my opinion, ignorance. See here:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
When I was a student, very few people got student loans. If you came from a poor family who could not help pay for school, you worked towards getting some sort of scholarship

This is out of tune with today's reality. If you are middle class today, you are not getting a meaningful scholarship unless you have some very unique qualification. You also are not financing an education with a job at subway or the local bookstore. That is all fundamentally different than a generation ago. To claim otherwise is unjust.

To suggest that you shouldn't go to school if you don't qualify for a scholarship or have funds to finance it outright is unfair. While I agree that university degrees are overrated and other great career paths exist, this shouldn't be based on your family wealth.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Mon May 13, 2013 12:43 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
And although you don't care about society, it ultimately does affect you negatively.

Least of all that early Saturday morning home invasion robbery once he has achieved the lifestyle he is working toward.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
BMI727
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RE: Elizabeth Warren, Reduce Loan Rates For Students

Mon May 13, 2013 12:52 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
You don't have very much opportunity when you work two full time jobs and can hardly pay for food and bills.

People don't just magically end up that way. The number of people who as workers are genuinely useless doing anything more than being a warm body is not huge. Not everybody can go get a Ph.D, but then not everybody needs it either.

There are reasons why employers aren't hiring these people for better wages, it isn't just because they don't like them. They might have been convicted of a crime, or just decided when they were young that they would be better off not going to school.

Everybody has negative influences in their lives. Resisting them is not the responsibility of the government.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
You don't have much opportunity when you're entire housing community is the slums and everyone resorts to crime, dragging you down with you.

So now we're supposed to write people checks to not commit crimes and do what they're supposed to do? It sucks to be in a bad environment like that, but it's on the people themselves to not fall into a worse situation for themselves. The government should fund schools to provide a way out, but actually travelling the route to a better life is on the individual.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 46):
What good are college incentives for people that can't even make it that far?

There need to be improvements on the sub-college levels too.

Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 47):
If you are middle class today, you are not getting a meaningful scholarship unless you have some very unique qualification. You also are not financing an education with a job at subway or the local bookstore. That is all fundamentally different than a generation ago. To claim otherwise is unjust.

Part of the reason education costs so much is that people are willing to pay for it because 1) They feel the societal pressure to do it, 2) They are told it will pay off no matter what and 3) They can get easy loans to pay for it. It's easy to not care that the price is bad when you can just finance it.

It's the same dynamics that caused the housing bubble. You weren't "Living the American dream" unless you owned a home, it's an asset that will only appreciate in value, and all you have to do is sign here on the mortgage. Don't worry that the rate might explode, you'll sell your house for a profit or refinance to a better deal before anything bad can happen.
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