Thrust
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TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 7:39 am

I'm sorry, but I just feel that I have to put this question up...my personal view is that no, it's not.

No missile was detected on the radar, there was evidence of background power harmonics on the CVR, no evidence of pitting, cratering, or hot gas-washing on the metal.

In contrast to this evidence, there is one person who suggested to me that a proximity detonation of a missile could have brought Flight 800 down, as it would have accounted for the absence of all the evidence one would expect from a direct hit of a missile. He also cites the many eyewitnesses who reported a missile. I want to hear what people on here think.
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flymia
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 7:47 am

If you think it is what the NTSB said it was why post the topic?

I did a large, tedious and interesting analysis of evidence report on TWA-800. I know so much about the accident now. Not just about the NTSB report I studied and dissected but also some of the biggest conspricacy theory reports. The investigation was a little shady but that is because they thought for a while this could have been a bomb. There were a few public comments which were odd. The biggest thing going for the conspricacy theory would be the eye witnesses saying there was a missle. Even with all that I am 99.8% sure TWA 800 occurred because of an explosion in a nearly empty center wing fuel tank. After studying so much about that flight it just makes too much sense what the NTSB says.

Also conspiracy theories these days would be so difficult to keep under wraps.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 8:03 am

A number of eye witnesses claimed they saw a missile. The NTSB believes what they saw was after the explosion and after the front of the plane fell off. Burning fuel as the rest of the plane climbed uncontrollably could look like a missile. I'm sure the eye witnesses believe what they saw but I know first hand a marine layer can play tricks with your eyes. A bomb would have been far easier and far cheaper to pull off than a missile but neither ever really panned out. One could argue that the current NTSB theory is exactly that, a theory, not 100% unchallengable fact. It is a theory that works quite well when tested. There are some videos on youtube testing this with an old airliner center tank. They didn't need much voltage to catastrophically detonate.
 
Gasman
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 8:12 am

I know the sister of one of the eye-witnesses. This particular EW is young, of sound mind etc. and is utterly convinced of the fact she saw something resembling a missile trail rise from the surface of the ocean, disappear into the sky... and the explosion occurred AFTER.

But you'd have to concede that to keep such a conspiracy secret would be literally impossible. So a centre fuel tank explosion it is.

[Edited 2013-05-12 01:14:43]
 
PC12Fan
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 11:40 am

I'll admit, right after it happened my reaction was of the - one eyebrow raised - type. The missile reports, the military sorties over the area, and so on. Then I started listening to the facts and it made more sense. Particularly the fact that Boeing has had similar events occur to other models in their line up.

Even if it was an accidental shoot down, as others have said already, somebody would have said something by now.

Center tank explosion.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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falstaff
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 12:53 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 1):
Also conspiracy theories these days would be so difficult to keep under wraps.

I disagree

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 4):
Even if it was an accidental shoot down, as others have said already, somebody would have said something by now.

Not if only a few people know about it.... There were secrets from WWII that took 50 years to come out so a few people keeping their mouth shut isn't really a big deal.

People have said they know what really happened and they just get shut down by people who who say "look what the NTSB said" If some guy came around and said "I can tell you exactly what happened and I can prove it" there would still be a large number of people say he is lying because the government investigation says something different.

I am not a conspiracy believer in general. That being said the TWA 800 incident is the only conspiracy that I think makes any sense and I can see the government wanting to put the blame on anyone but themselves.
My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
 
skywaymanaz
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
There were secrets from WWII that took 50 years to come out

A very valid point but WW II was a multi year bloody affair. There are some things that happened then where people did indeed talk but it got drowned out and forgotten until much later. The one big secret that I can think of that was kept for almost 30 years was the cracking of the Enigma code. There were some hints here and there but mostly the people involved did indeed keep their mouths shut. Even after the secret was made public it was almost another 20 years before the Lorenz cipher work was released to the public. Lorenz used technology similar to what our Cold War enemies used so it had to stay classified until computer encryption took over. So long story short yes it is possible the secret could be kept but I have a feeling someone would have turned the whole thing over to wikileaks years ago if there was a cover up.
 
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TheRedBaron
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 2:25 pm

Did not the guy who stole the seat fabric went to jail, and he had evidence of explosive material, if it was a mid fuel tank explosion why all the trouble of sending Him to jail..

Just asking.

TRB
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shuttle9juliet
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 3:23 pm

747s do not just blow up.
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .
There was also reports of naval activity in the area prior to the downing.
IMO I think the Navy shot it down by accident and after realising their horrific mistake detonated the missile, but by that time it was too late as maximum damage had occurred.
Clinton administration would not want the world to know the Americans had caused a massive embarrassment upon themselves.
Oh and wasn't this around the time of re elections ?
 
Gatorman96
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting THrust (Thread starter):
In contrast to this evidence, there is one person who suggested to me that a proximity detonation of a missile could have brought Flight 800 down, as it would have accounted for the absence of all the evidence one would expect from a direct hit of a missile. He also cites the many eyewitnesses who reported a missile. I want to hear what people on here think.

As far as I know, most anti-aircraft missiles do not explode with a direct hit, but explode near the target, sending all sorts shrapnel into the target aircraft. For example, the current Sidewinder missile has around 200 titanium rods that break apart into thousands of pieces after the explosion. These holes would clearly show up on the skin of the recovered aircraft pieces.
Cha brro
 
B6JFKH81
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 3:27 pm

This thread is going to get interesting, let me grab my popcorn....

"If you do not learn from history, you are doomed to repeat it"
 
Gatorman96
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 3:29 pm

Quoting flymia (Reply 1):
Also conspiracy theories these days would be so difficult to keep under wraps.

Especially when you consider the amount of people involved in naval exercises. Someone would've come forward already to capitalize on the media coverage (and $$$) they would garner from breaking this story...
Cha brro
 
eastern747
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 4:03 pm

Didn't they put all the pieces together (as much as they could) and from the pictures I saw, it was quit extensive. I believe that would most certainly show whether the explosion was from the inside or outside. Also, as stated before, a missile would have left a telltale shadow.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):

There is a big difference in keeping a secret to further the public good and keeping a secret of an unethical horrific event you were a part of. That alone kills most conspiracy theories for me.


The problem I have with most conspiracy theories is that they are a house of cards based on assumptions. They take some evidence or observation and say "this could have happened." It is an assumption, and it may be a pretty probable assumption. For argument's sake, let's just say each assumption is actually 75% likely to be what the conspiracy theorist says it is.

So after the first assumption, they get another assumption and use those two assumptions as the base for the next assumption, which in turn is used for another assumption. 75%^4=32%, in other words, the odds for any of the assumptions happening is pretty great but the odds of all of the assumptions lining up is pretty slim. It gets to the point where I say "well yeah, I guess all those event could have happened, but that's so convoluted it makes 30 times more sense that there wasn't some huge government conspiracy/coverup/etc"


And on the missile thing... how many people know what missiles striking aircraft look like? How many know what an explosion separating the aircraft's nose or whatever looks like? Eye witness reports are terrible, even in groups. IIRC, I even saw a study on this where someone says they saw something and everyone else "reremembers" the event to include what that person said. I think it might have been this case but I'm not sure.

My opinion: nah, fuel explosion, next.
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
flymia
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 4:58 pm

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
There is a big difference in keeping a secret to further the public good and keeping a secret of an unethical horrific event you were a part of. That alone kills most conspiracy theories for me.


Exactly. The amount of money someone who actually knew the "real" story would make if they came out and told them would make someone come out already if there was anything to hide. Lets also keep in mind the people in this investigation. People want to say the NTSB is behind this. What a joke that is. The NTSB is a civilian organization. The investigators are not agents, they are not spies there is little to no secret information the NTSB has or uses. The NTSB wants everything they find out to be public and they are also the best accident investigators in the world. The last thing any NTSB investigator would do is keep a cause of an accident a secret. If the NTSB knew or thought it was a bomb or missile they would say it or at least one of the investigators would come out and say it.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
And on the missile thing... how many people know what missiles striking aircraft look like? How many know what an explosion separating the aircraft's nose or whatever looks like? Eye witness reports are terrible, even in groups. IIRC, I even saw a study on this where someone says they saw something and everyone else "reremembers" the event to include what that person said. I think it might have been this case but I'm not sure.


This is also a big point of my analysis. However, one thing I did suggest would be a good idea is for the FBI and CIA to make a new video of what happened with modern technology. The video they showed the eye witnesses was with mid 90s technology and many of the eye witnesses said what the CIA/FBI showed in the video is not what happened. They should have and I think they still should make a video with modern technology and show the eye witnesses now and see what they say. Probably too late now but I am sure many of those people did not forget what they saw.
One witness was a military helicopter pilot though.

Quoting gatorman96 (Reply 11):
Especially when you consider the amount of people involved in naval exercises. Someone would've come forward already to capitalize on the media coverage (and $$$) they would garner from breaking this story...


Certainly.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
Did not the guy who stole the seat fabric went to jail, and he had evidence of explosive material, if it was a mid fuel tank explosion why all the trouble of sending Him to jail..


He did not go to jail. He was a TWA Captain who was part of the investigation and he was given probation for stealing government property. The evidence at the time was government property. Now if this plane was shot down by the U.S. why in the world would they allow TWA Pilots to be part of the investigation.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
NWAROOSTER
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 7:01 pm

Something that bothered me about the explosion and downing of TWA Flight 800 is as follows and it is only my speculation from the time it happened. I am a retired aircraft mechanic and have worked on 747s. But this does NOT mean my thoughts from the time this happened are valid. The 747 has a hinged panel below the center fuel tank which is secured closed by three screws which can be removed and reinstalled with a speed handle with a philips screw bit. After the screws are removed there are three snap closed latches that hold the panel closed which is further secured by the three screws.
I have always wondered if someone could have opened the panel and attached a "bomb" to the structure above the panel and secured the panel. The bomb would have been triggered by a barometric , altitude sensor, which would start a timing mechanism after it reached preset altitude. It could of also had two timers, one which would delay the activation of the barometric sensor which would then start the second timer.
This aircraft had an originating flight that started in Athens, Greece which, I believe, may have had poor security, thus making it easier for someone to place the bomb above the previously mentioned panel. The aircraft, I think, made a stop in London and then flew on to New York in the US. It was scheduled to return to Europe, but took some type of delay while in New York.
I always thought that this possible "bomb" was installed on the aircraft in Athens and was designed to explode after it began it's return trip from New York over the Atlantic much further east of the United States so that the aircraft would fall further off the US shore and in much deeper water making it more difficult to recover. This bomb, if there was one, exploded shortly after take off due to the delay in New York.
As a point of note, there was a 747, if I am correct on the aircraft type, that had a bomb explode in the aft cargo compartment while at the gate in Japan. I do not remember the date other than it was earlier than TWA flight 800. It was believed that who ever planted the "bomb" wanted it to explode while the aircraft was flying over the Pacific Ocean.   
Procrastination Is The Theft Of Time.......
 
sierra3tango
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 7:13 pm

Have a look at this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aer_Lingus_Flight_712

Time does not necessarily bring out the truth
 
bueb0g
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 7:18 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
I disagree

And you base this on...?

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
People have said they know what really happened and they just get shut down by people who who say "look what the NTSB said"

They "said" they knew what really happened. Then why nut publish a paper, display their evidence, go to the media?

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
747s do not just blow up.

What an asinine comment. Plenty of aircraft have exploded at altitude for various reasons. And even if you don't believe the NTSB report, there is no denying that the theory put forward is plausible.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .

Every single eyewitness of something "streaking" has been timed to after the explosion, ie they were looking at the wreckage.

Do you claim "conspiracy" after every major aircraft accident, when hundreds of witnesses report seeing the aircraft in flames? No, because eyewitnesses - especially if they are far away, are unsure of what they are looking at, or are surprised are incredibly unreliable and like to remember what they think it would have been interesting to see.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
There was also reports of naval activity in the area prior to the downing.

Coincidental, and is the case with many crashes at sea - funnily enough, navies, being seafaring military arms, often have activity at sea.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
Clinton administration would not want the world to know the Americans had caused a massive embarrassment upon themselves.

Which would have set up the much greater "embarrassment" (not to mention the arrest of many officials, including the President) when the conspiracy was inevitably uncovered.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
Oh and wasn't this around the time of re elections ?

It was in the same year as an election, which happens once every 4 years. One in four is not exactly an impossible chance.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
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AirlineCritic
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Bent metal does not lie. Particularly about the direction it was bent. The pieces tell an unmistakable story of an explosion originating in the fuel tank.

So, sorry, there was no missile. People can of course imagine all kinds of elaborate conspiracies, like having the NTSB fabricate evidence, or that the moon landing was faked. It is difficult to prove a negative, but what is the likelihood of pretty much everyone working in perfect synchrony to build a cover-up in any of these topics? None.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 7:51 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .

Why exactly would 150 people be watching an aircraft taking off in the dark? I just don't believe this.
Fortune favours the brave
 
rfields5421
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 8:08 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .

You want us to believe there were 150 people outside after sunset watching an airplane fly at 13-15,000 ft seven or eight miles off shore.

That before the explosion, they saw something streaking toward the aircraft.

BS

What most of the people saw was the effects of the explosion with some debris gaining altitude due to momentum and the fall of debris.

We all know that eyewitnesses to aircraft crashes are wrong in their initial view of what happened the vast majority of the time. They fill in details from their expectations, not from their actual memory.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
IMO I think the Navy shot it down by accident

I can assure you, if a US Navy ship had fired a missile that night, dozens of people would have leaked the information quickly. People in uniform understand operational security, and BS security clamp downs. Coverups never work in the military.

Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
the guy who stole the seat fabric went to jail,
Quoting TheRedBaron (Reply 7):
why all the trouble of sending Him to jail

Because he is a thief who stole evidence and ruined the chain of custody, making it impossible to determine what was exactly on the seat, and where it came from.
 
GDB
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 8:23 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 5):
Not if only a few people know about it.... There were secrets from WWII that took 50 years to come out so a few people keeping their mouth shut isn't really a big deal.

Very few knew about Nixon and his staff approving and directing the breaking into offices of the Democratic Party in 1972.
Until they did.

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):

747s do not just blow up.
150 eye witnesses said they saw something streaking toward the aircraft .
There was also reports of naval activity in the area prior to the downing.
IMO I think the Navy shot it down by accident and after realising their horrific mistake detonated the missile, but by that time it was too late as maximum damage had occurred.
Clinton administration would not want the world to know the Americans had caused a massive embarrassment upon themselves.
Oh and wasn't this around the time of re elections ?

Do yourself a favour, if you really think all that utter nonsense you just embarrassed yourself by posting.
If you actually believe any of it, then you'd best keep off any commercial aircraft.
If the NTSB has somehow faked the TWA 800 accident, what else has gone on with the safety of airliners?
You don't trust the aviation regulators, fine, stay on the ground.

Anyone who has been in the engineering part of the airline biz, knows just how much extra regulatory work has arisen since TWA 800, around the issue of fuel tank ignition especially on aging airliners.
So that's all been done just for fun has it?
All the other agencies, in all those other countries, with the involvement of other manufacturers not just Boeing?
No one says, 'this does not look right'?

There have been other fuel tank ignitions, not just in the air either.
No aircraft 747 or otherwise 'just blows up' might be true, there is always a reason, that you think yourself above the highly trained, highly qualified, dedicated to the safety of airliners people who found the must likely cause, is somehow invalid as they don't seem to have your 'a bloke down the pub told me....' type of 'analysis' is depressing but all too familiar.
 
AR385
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 8:54 pm

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 15):
that had a bomb explode in the aft cargo compartment while at the gate in Japan. I do not remember the date other than it was earlier than TWA flight 800. It was believed that who ever planted the "bomb" wanted it to explode while the aircraft was flying over the Pacific Ocean.

That was baggage from a CP Air 747 that had just arrived at NRT. It went off inside the baggage distribution system and killed, I believe, two Japanese workers. It was part of the plot that brought down the Air India 747 off the Irish coast back in 1985

How many airliners have actually been blown up by a missile by mistake? I know that Italian DC-9 over the Mediterranean and a Tu-154 in some ex-Soviet republic. Are there any others?

As for the OP, no conspiracy, center tank explosion.
 
na
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Sun May 12, 2013 11:10 pm

I think the same people who were behind the Kennedy assassination brought down TWA800 

No, seriously, while the NTSB theory makes sense, the wholesale disregard of what so many eye witnesses said will always cast a shadow. Many might have been in error, sure, as eye witnesses often do interprete events wrongly. But still, it sounds odd to me that so many should be in doubt, and so few eyewitnesses do support the findings. If the US military did some rocket weapon exercise in that area that day, and that seems to be the case, and something went wrong, which might have happened, then they would have had plenty of reasons, and plenty of dollars to hide it. But, as others said, such thing cant he covered up forever. I tend to think the NTSB is right, for 84,59%.
 
rfields5421
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 12:03 am

Quoting na (Reply 23):
the wholesale disregard of what so many eye witnesses said will always cast a shadow.

They were not disregarded. They were questioned by the FBI, their storied examined, their timeline written down and compared. I don't think the FBI found a single person who said they actually saw something before the explosion and could accurately describe the event. Some of the eyewitnesses quoted by conspiracy theorists were over 25 miles away.

Almost all the eyewitness who can be verified to be in a position to actually have seen the explosion describe things arcing into the sky above the aircraft, and presume it to be a missile passing through the aircraft.

Quoting na (Reply 23):
If the US military did some rocket weapon exercise in that area that day, and that seems to be the case,

The US Navy was not doing any live rocket weapons exercises or testing that day. No missiles with motors were put on rails that day.

The area is used to test drill dummy weapons some times, but never live weapons. It is too close to air routes and populated areas.
 
stratosphere
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 1:55 am

Quoting AR385 (Reply 22):
How many airliners have actually been blown up by a missile by mistake? I know that Italian DC-9 over the Mediterranean and a Tu-154 in some ex-Soviet republic. Are there any others?

Yep and this one we shot it down and actually have never admitted doing it even though we paid off the Iranians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655


I am also not one to give in to conspiricy theories like the many involving the World Trade Center. But this one I did buy into a little mainly since we have actually shot down a civlian airliner by mistake it seemed plausable. But like others have said too many people involved in this to successfully cover something like this up..However, I don't trust our govenment as far as I could throw it either.

[Edited 2013-05-12 19:07:32]
 
rfields5421
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 25):
actually have never admitted doing it

The US Navy and the US government have not denied that the aircraft was shot down by the USS Vincennes.

The question has always been why was the aircraft not properly identified.

No - I don't trust the politicians in our government either.

However, I do trust the near couple million people wearing the uniforms, especially the mid-ranking people who do the hard work.

One thing which makes it so hard to keep secrets in the US government is the politicians. When one group gets voted out, the next group coming in looks for everything they can find in the files and secret files to make the opposite party look bad.

In my experience it appears that most of the people in politically appointed offices - congressional staff members - White House staff - staff of various executive agencies - all have not real concept of security. If a secret can be used to give them an advantage - they will leak the information.

People in offices who are not on the news every day work very hard to 'impress' news media and others with their inside knowledge.

That actually works to the advantage of the people of the United States - because so much that the various administrations want to keep from the public is eventually leaked.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 3:12 am

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 25):
However, I don't trust our govenment as far as I could throw it either.

As rfields5421 mentioned, I don't think I've met anyone in the military that would NOT say anything if something like this happened. I'm sure the military is littered with them, but how on Earth do you find a ship full of these people? And if it was an accident, you just coincidentally had a ship full of the shady people not saying anything?

I know there are horribly corrupt politicians out there, but some of these grand conspiracy theories are just way to vast. Either that or the NWO is so good it's just futile to fight them  
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
ANITIX87
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 1:00 pm

Funny. Here I was, thinking this site had smart people on it. I guess not.......

TIS
www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
 
bueb0g
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 3:41 pm

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 28):
Funny. Here I was, thinking this site had smart people on it. I guess not.......

Care to elaborate on exactly what that means? As there are people arguing on both sides here (although arguably more from the side of logic and evidence) your post is effectively meaningless.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
ANITIX87
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 4:53 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 29):
your post is effectively meaningless.

As is most of this discussion - nobody's going to change their mind about what they say happened. I don't care to elaborate because I'll offend half the people in this discussion and that wasn't my goal (or, at least, I didn't want those I was offending to know they were being offended). I was deliberately cryptic and vague.

TIS

[Edited 2013-05-13 09:55:32]
www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 24-70 2.8L II, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-4
 
GDB
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 5:42 pm

In my time in the industry, there have been two major airliner accident events that have brought changes, in procedures, inspections, maintenance programs and even human factors.

They are, the structural failure of the Aloha 737 in 1988 and the loss of TWA 800.
Looked at in this context, sceptics one hopes will at least understand why some of us are so aggressively dismissive of all this crap around the lost 747.

This fig leaf of eye witnesses, as ever exaggerated and distorted by the nutters, ignores that with the best will in the world they are a very unreliable source of information.
More so when they don't really know what they are looking at, at a distance, at night.

(None of the very tell tale evidence in the wreckage that a missile would cause either).
 
damirc
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 31):
This fig leaf of eye witnesses, as ever exaggerated and distorted by the nutters, ignores that with the best will in the world they are a very unreliable source of information.
More so when they don't really know what they are looking at, at a distance, at night.

Due to the general tone I really didn't felt like responding, but there has been enough half truths dished out that at least some need correcting.

"I know what I saw. I saw an ordnance explosion. And whatever I saw, the explosion of the fuel was not the initiator of the event. It was one of the results. Something happened before that which was the initiator of the disaster."
(statement by Frederick C. Meyer, NY Air National Guard heli pilot who was just above Gabreski (KFOK/FOK)).

"Almost due south [of the helicopter], there was a hard white light, like burning pyrotechnics, in level flight. I was trying to figure out what it was. It was the wrong color for flares. It struck an object coming from the right and made it explode."
(statement by Capt. Chris Baur, another NY Air National Guard heli pilot)

Quote:
I don't think the FBI found a single person who said they actually saw something before the explosion and could accurately describe the event.

This is very much wrong. There are many reports that follow the path of the "flare" rising from the ocean floor towards TWA800 (not 10, but >100).

In addition to that, I believe a short in the FQIS system was the most likely culprit. Just like to set the record straight in regards to the number of EWs and their statements. Don't just wash them away.

D.
 
sprout5199
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 7:19 pm

Quoting shuttle9juliet (Reply 8):
IMO I think the Navy shot it down by accident and after realising their horrific mistake detonated the missile, but by that time it was too late as maximum damage had occurred

This makes no sense, as the missile is designed to explode to bring down an aircraft.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 20):
can assure you, if a US Navy ship had fired a missile that night, dozens of people would have leaked the information quickly. People in uniform understand operational security, and BS security clamp downs. Coverups never work in the military.

In 1996, the smallest ship to carry SAMs was an FFG, which has a crew of 200 or so, and every sailor onboard an FFG knows when a missile has been fired. They are not a slient firing weapon, and the damage they do to the ship itself is very pronounced(scorched non-skid, burnt paint ETC..).

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 25):
Yep and this one we shot it down and actually have never admitted doing it even though we paid off the Iranians
Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 26):
The US Navy and the US government have not denied that the aircraft was shot down by the USS Vincennes.

The question has always been why was the aircraft not properly identified.

The Vincennes shot down what it thought was a threat, later to learn that it was a computer issue(the track number of the Iran Air was swapped with an A-6 desending to land onboard a carrier in the Indian ocean, so to the Vincennes, it looked like the target was desending to attack them).

Dan in Jupiter
 
Redd
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Mon May 13, 2013 7:55 pm

Quoting THrust (Thread starter):
I want to hear what people on here think.

Simple, in this age never believe what governments tell u... It might have been the center fuel tank, 911 might be good and well saudi terrorists. The Boston Bombers might well have been pubescent kids for which Boston was shut down and regular people were abused on the streets for shopping..... Vote left or right, still f¤cked.

[Edited 2013-05-13 12:56:17]
 
PC12Fan
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 12:16 am

Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 30):
I was deliberately cryptic and vague.

So much for your credibility.   

Quoting damirc (Reply 32):

With all do respect to these members of the military, had they ever seen a live firing of this type?
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 12:31 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 32):

And eye witnesses never see things incorrectly?  
Quoting Redd (Reply 34):
Simple, in this age never believe what governments tell u...

The government is not some omnipotent force... it is made up of people, a TON of people. I am in the Navy and I absolutely cannot fathom an entire ship-full of sailors covering this up. Absolutely ridiculous, I'd bet I'd survive jumping out of an airplane at 30000' without a parachute and surviving before I believe you could get a ship full of corrupt sailors to cover it up. Impossible, yes, impossible. I also cannot accept that a bunch of shady officers set up the Boston bombing for similar reasons. The conspiracies I have the least problem with involve way fewer people, but even those have holes


I don't even know why I argue against conspiracy theorists, they'll never change their minds. In this case, it's just best to ignore them
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 1:44 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
The government is not some omnipotent force... it is made up of people, a TON of people.

This is what cracks me up about conspiracy theorists. They believe the government is some singular source of power running things like the "Men in Black."
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
damirc
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 35):
With all do respect to these members of the military, had they ever seen a live firing of this type?

Considering at least Mr. Meyer spent some time in Vietnam and had SAMs fired at his helo there I would venture to say he did (probably not of this supposed exact type, but enough to warrant serious consideration of his eyewitness report).

Verbatim quote from him:
"I'm not a professor with a PhD in explosion watching. I'm an eyewitness. I know what I saw. I saw an ordnance explosion. And whatever I saw, the explosion of the fuel was not the initiator of the event. It was one of the results. Something happened before that which was the initiator of the disaster. Everyone involved in the FBI and NTSB are intelligent enough to know that.".

(to clear up - Meyer & Baur were piloting the same helicopter).

Mr. Baur also stated "Almost due south [of the helicopter] there was a hard white light, like burning pyrotechnics, in level flight ... it was the wrong color for flares. It struck an object coming from the right and made it explode." (so from this you can gather he could not positively identify the type of "object" he saw hit the plane).

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
And eye witnesses never see things incorrectly?

Well, you know that they do. In every crash you'll have people claiming the airplane was on fire while still in the air... So at least some eyewitnesses reports are notoriously unreliable. But all of them? ^^

http://raylahr.entryhost.com/FBI.pdf - read here the witness reports and count how many report the "flare-type" object rise from water level travelling east to west (while TWA800 was travelling in the exact opposite direction). Interesting.

D.
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 4:53 am

Quoting damirc (Reply 38):
Well, you know that they do. In every crash you'll have people claiming the airplane was on fire while still in the air... So at least some eyewitnesses reports are notoriously unreliable. But all of them? ^^

http://raylahr.entryhost.com/FBI.pdf - read here the witness reports and count how many report the "flare-type" object rise from water level travelling east to west (while TWA800 was travelling in the exact opposite direction). Interesting.

I've got a ton to do in just a few short hours, but I'll try and take a look tomorrow. I've heard that part of the plane flared up a bit. IDK, look at it tomorrow. But I'd still bet my life savings that a boat full of sailors would not stay quiet.

I'm not gonna be a super patriotic flag waver and say that we don't have shady people in our military, we do, but I literally think it's impossible to make a boat full of sailors cover up this egregious, horrible killing of US citizens. In times of war/war secrets/even atrocities against foreign citizens I can see, but no, not the slaying of citizens. And to think that only a few officers on the ship knew... you don't know about a ship's scuttlebutt.

Now intentionally hand selecting a crew, somehow, and having them all on that ship kinda answers how it would be covered up, but then you have the whole "we shot it down on purpose." No, I don't go there either. It's one of those technically plausible things but that's so bizarre and far fetched and it's 1000xs more likely to have been the official reason than the conspiracy

Look at the big picture, not an anomaly. Again, I'll look tomorrow, but I doubt that many people were looking at the plane near night time. Probably saw the light/explosion, saw the nose (?) "flare up," and then when missile was mentioned, you re-remember it. IIRC there have been studies of large groups of eye-witnesses modifying what they saw based of what others have said
Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
 
johnboy
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 5:06 am

As an aside to this topic, I have a close medical examiner friend who stated he worked this accident.

Finding so many horrifically maimed (parts of) bodies turned him away from his occupation for a few years.
He also said they used to put sandbags in the coffins to make it somewhat easier for families, when in actuality there might be a portion of a finger present.
 
Redd
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 7:54 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
I don't even know why I argue against conspiracy theorists,

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I just don't swallow everything I hear on the news. A good example is George Bush's excuse for invading Iraq, WMD's. Americans in the majority believed it. I thought at the beginning that it was bullshit, I could not tell you for sure but it turned out to be sure. Boston was shut down completely, I mean people were not being allowed out of their homes because there were looking for some young punk who built a pipe bomb???? I was watching here on the news and youtube and I was pretty shocked, it looked like Marshall Law. There is an agenda behind many things that we don't know about, or aren't meant too. Saying that does not make someone crazy.

Americans swallow way too much of what they are fed by the government and media, and if someone gives an alternative theory they are called a conspiracy theorist. Accept or be ridiculed, great policy. Free thinking should not be ridiculed.
 
777way
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 9:25 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
I don't even know why I argue against conspiracy theorists, they'll never change their minds. In this case, it's just best to ignore them

But why are you and others adamant to stuff your views and make them change theirs, they have a right to their theory however wrong it may be to you.
 
na
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 10:33 am

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 36):
The government is not some omnipotent force... it is made up of people, a TON of people. I am in the Navy and I absolutely cannot fathom an entire ship-full of sailors covering this up. Absolutely ridiculous, I'd bet I'd survive jumping out of an airplane at 30000' without a parachute and surviving before I believe you could get a ship full of corrupt sailors to cover it up. Impossible, yes, impossible.

Fully agreed. Even in a marsian state like North Korea that would be difficult.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 11:51 am

Quoting NWAROOSTER (Reply 15):
I am a retired aircraft mechanic and have worked on 747s. But this does NOT mean my thoughts from the time this happened are valid. The 747 has a hinged panel below the center fuel tank which is secured closed by three screws which can be removed and reinstalled with a speed handle with a philips screw bit. After the screws are removed there are three snap closed latches that hold the panel closed which is further secured by the three screws.

What panel are you talking about? The 747 has the three aircon packs right under the center tank, each with big, hinged access panels with quick access latches. Plus there is (close to the wing gear well) the small panel for external air for engine start.
Btw., I´m an A&P mechanic / licenced engineer currently working on 747s.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
rfields5421
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 12:39 pm

Quoting damirc (Reply 38):
read here the witness reports and count how many report the "flare-type" object rise from water level travelling east to west

Why don't you link to the NTSB report of the witnesses? Rather than a bunch of conspiracy sites?

Meyer is reported as a helo pilot, a C-130 pilot, a F-16 pilot.

His statement is revised, edited and changed depending upon which site you search.

However, I cannot find anywhere that he repeated his 'statement'.

But the statements of Meyer, his copilot and his flight engineer are very different from what is reported across the web

From the NTSB Report page 245 - http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2000/AAR0003.pdf

Quote:
The witnesses in the HH-60 helicopter

Crewmembers (the pilot, copilot, and flight engineer) in a New York Air National Guard (NYANG) HH-60 helicopter, who at the time of the accident were performing instrument approaches about 11 nm from where the main portion of the wreckage fell into the ocean, were interviewed by the FBI shortly after the accident. According to documentation of those interviews, the pilot of the NYANG helicopter stated that he first observed a red streak of light moving very fast from right to left and that it was traveling in a gradually descending arc almost horizontally. He stated that he observed the streak for about 1 to 2 seconds after which he saw an explosion. He described the streak as having the trajectory and image of a shooting star. In an interview with the Safety Boards initial Witness Group (conducted on January 11, 1997), he indicated that he observed a red-orange streak of light moving horizontally for about 3 to 5 seconds in a gradually descending arc that he described as a ìgentle descending trajectory similar to a shooting star. He then saw what he described as an explosion, followed 1 to 2 seconds later by a second and possibly a third explosion.505 He stated that he then saw a fireball, which he described as ìfour times the size of the sun, that hit the oceanís surface about 10 seconds after he first saw the fireball.506 The HH-60 pilot indicated that the fireball followed the same trajectory as the streak. According to the witness documents, the pilot stated that he had no idea what it was and that he never saw anything that he identified as an airplane.

The witness documents indicated that the copilot and flight engineer from the HH-60 stated that their first observation of the event was of flaming debris at an estimated altitude of 4,000 to 5,000 feet and that this flaming debris hit the water about 8 seconds after they first spotted it. According to the witness documents, the copilot stated that, although he did not remember it on the evening of the accident, the next day he remembered seeing an object streaking from his left to his right just before the appearance of the fireball. He characterized this object as being like an ìincendiary device or a
pyrotechnic.î He stated that he then saw a succession of three explosions, each longer than the last.

So basically every thing you've quoted above is a lie according to Meyer.

Some additional information from the NTSB Report on Witnesses

Quote:
The Witness Group determined that of the 736 witnesses, 239 were sound witnesses, 179 were sight and sound witnesses, 258 were streak-of-light witnesses, and 599 were fireball witnesses.

(The Witness Group defined a streak of light as an object moving in the sky that could be variously described in witness documents as a point of light, fireworks, a flare, a shooting star, or something similar. The definition noted that a streak of light was usually described as ascending, but could also be described as arcing over and/or descending. The Witness Group agreed that the streak of light definition must not meet the definition of a fireball and that it must precede any report of a fireball by that witness.)

Of the 258 streak-of-light witnesses, 38 reported that the streak was ascending vertically or nearly so, 18 indicated that it originated from the surface of the earth, and 7 reported that it originated at the horizon.

In addition, 210 witnesses reported seeing both a fireball and a streak of light.

Of the 591 witnesses whose reported positions were plotted,

seven were positioned within 5-nm ground distance of the last secondary radar return from TWA flight 800.

About 200 witnesses were positioned between 5- and 10-nm ground distance of the last secondary radar return.

More than 200 witnesses were positioned between 10- and 15-nm ground distance of the last secondary radar return.

About 80 witnesses were positioned between 15- and 20-nm ground distance of the last secondary radar return.

Nearly 100 witnesses were positioned more than 20-nm ground distance from the last secondary radar return.

There are not 100+ reports of a possible missile - 38 [/quote]

Quote:
The streak of light reported by many (of the 258 streak-of-light witnesses) may have been the accident airplane during some stage of its flight before the fireball developed. Most of the streak-of-light accounts are generally consistent with the calculated flightpath of the accident airplane; however, 38 witnesses described a streak of light rising straight up or nearly so. These 38 witness accounts seem to be inconsistent with the calculated flightpath of the accident airplane.

There is also a report from a passenger on US Airways flight 217 that he saw the blinking lights of an airplane below his flight (USA 217 was 8,000 ft above TWA 800), then saw a "flare" moving left to right for 10-15 seconds then an explosion.

Radar data determined the plane below USA 217 was a US Navy P-3, and that a passenger looking out the right side windows of USA 217 would have been on the wrong side of the airplane to see TWA 800 at any point, even after the explosion.

[Edited 2013-05-14 06:08:26]
 
damirc
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 6:01 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 45):
Why don't you link to the NTSB report of the witnesses? Rather than a bunch of conspiracy sites?

For the simple reason that the FBI only submitted to the NTSB only 448 witness reports as opposed to 670 witness reports that have been gathered by the FBI. (with 222 missing). But if you doubt the veracity of these documents you are most certainly free to submit your own FOIA request to the FBI and will receive the same batch.

I don't mind where it's linked to/from, but it's better to dispute the source rather than dispute the eyewitness reports.

Quote:
Meyer is reported as a helo pilot, a C-130 pilot, a F-16 pilot.

.

Sources please. Meyer was at that time piloting an HH-60 (although in the 302 it's written UH-60) to the best of my knowledge. In regards to the Meyer "witness report" - it wasn't procued on an FBI-302 form, it was written down short-hand style in a 2.5x4" notebook (from what he said afterwards). I am not exactly sure who you've tagged as a liar - either me or Mr. Meyer, but I'm just going on what I've read in several sources. Considering how litigation happy the US Society is and considering his testimony was included in the Washington Times ad with his full name ( http://twa800.com/images/times-8-15-00.gif ) I'm pretty sure he would've sued someone penniless if it was misrepresenting what he said.

Regarding the US Air 217 passenger. Cherry picking. Read the eyewitness reports as linked and form your own opinion - this is the raw data as submitted by people, not the twice digested data that made it into the report.

The FIRO group's analysis comes to different numbers though:
- 182 people reported a rising streak of light
- 134 people reported the origin or trajectory of the streak of light
- 67 people recounted the origin of the streak of light (with 93% of those 67 reporting it originated at the surface)

Again - for me both the FQIS system short circuit and a shootdown (either accidental or intentional) are tied. What I'm peeved about is how the investigation was performed at times. Read it from Mr. Speer's (the ALPA representative in the investigation) affidavit here: http://twa800.com/lahr/affidavits/l-james-speer.pdf (yes, a conspiracy site!). The investigation was unfortunately not all that transparent ^^

D.

[Edited 2013-05-14 11:43:18]
 
rfields5421
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting damirc (Reply 46):
Sources please.

Do a Google search on his name - you will see the identical quote listing him as a helo pilot, a C-130 pilot, a F-16 pilot.

Quoting damirc (Reply 46):
I'm just going on what I've read in several sources.

No.

There is only one source of the false statement attributed to Meyer, repeated on dozens of sites.

Meyer has given up trying to clear his name of the falst statement.

You also haven't mentioned that at least two dozen different source of various fireworks that evening, about half of them on boats offshore.

Another point is that there were not public reports of a missile until after Pierre Salianger's report on Nov 7, 1996 - almost four months after the crash.

The Donaldson report by William S Donaldson, whose family keep TWA800.com operating, cites the theory that the plane was shot down by a missile - a terrorist missile fired from a small boat off shore.

TWA800.com is a completely biased, bogus, BS source. Don't tarnish yourself by citing that site.

[Edited 2013-05-14 12:44:06]
 
damirc
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):
TWA800.com is a completely biased, bogus, BS source. Don't tarnish yourself by citing that site.

Whatever. What I've linked was signed affidavits attributable to people who were in the "observing seat" to speak. I have not linked any interpretations (where I did mention one analysis was the FIRO group eyewitness analysis). I've linked the FBI 302 reports that have been obtained by FOIA requests. These material are verbatim and without interpretation.

So basically you are saying Meyer is a liar if I read you correctly?

A link to Meyer's affidavit: http://twa800.com/lahr/affidavits/o-fred-meyer.pdf ... this is the version that I would (along with the FBI record) hold as the one with the most provenance. Proving provenance of his quote from other sites and sources might be problematic (he said - she said).

D.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: TWA Flight 800: Conspiracy Or Not?

Tue May 14, 2013 8:46 pm

Quoting Silver1SWA (Reply 37):
This is what cracks me up about conspiracy theorists. They believe the government is some singular source of power running things like the "Men in Black."


And there is something that cracks me up even more!

My favourite conspiracy theory is that every conspiracy theory was created by a secret CIA PsyOps cell in order to distract the population from the REAL truth.

TWA 800 was brought down by a missile? Lame.

The 747 in question was commanded by Martian alien diplomats who had visited earth in order to buy humans for a breeding programme. The CIA, wanting to cover up that visit, paid eyewitnesses to tell the NTSB anything about "missiles" or a "fireball".

But the plain and simple fact is that the 747 was a disguised UFO, capable of warp-speed space travel.




David

[Edited 2013-05-14 13:55:08]
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.

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