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DocLightning
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12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 1:00 am

Unclear if there are any deaths yet. Youngest victim was 10, but it was "just a graze." And probably panic attacks for a while.   Number of injured varies with the network.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/05/12...-in-new-orleans-mother-day-parade/

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/12/us...iana-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

There were armed cops around and yet the shooting occurred. Turns out that having armed guards around doesn't seem to stop this sort of "hit-and-run" attack.
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ArmitageShanks
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 2:09 am

You mean baby mama day.
 
BMI727
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 2:23 am

Quoting armitageshanks (Reply 1):
You mean baby mama day.

And we have a winner!

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
Youngest victim was 10, but it was "just a graze." And probably panic attacks for a while.

Living in New Orleans, you can't say the panic is unjustified. They have the pretty parts for the tourists, but from what I've heard it's still not a nice place even after Katrina drove some of the troublemakers out.
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Aaron747
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 2:34 am

Somehow ironic since the perps were probably brought up by slightly less than stellar mothers.
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MaverickM11
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 6:06 am

Looks like the NRA sent a Mother's Day card 
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
There were armed cops around and yet the shooting occurred. Turns out that having armed guards around doesn't seem to stop this sort of "hit-and-run" attack.

   Same with the Ft Hood shooting
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AR385
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 6:15 am

From what I´ve read in other media that is not American, it has been ruled out as a terrorist attack by the incompe...sorry, the New Orleans PD.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 6:15 am

A mothers day parade, who the hell has a mothers day parade?
 
BMI727
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 6:21 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 6):
A mothers day parade, who the hell has a mothers day parade?

I have no idea. In general, I find parades to be an incredible nuisance even when they don't include gunfire.
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AeroWesty
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 6:31 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 6):
who the hell has a mothers day parade?

It was a second-line parade. Who doesn't love a parade?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-ZEyFqFTv4
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comorin
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 7:23 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

In an ideal world, the mothers and kids would be brandishing machine guns, like they do in sub-Saharan Africa. Time we caught up with the everyone else!
 
fr8mech
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 11:40 am

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
There were armed cops around and yet the shooting occurred. Turns out that having armed guards around doesn't seem to stop this sort of "hit-and-run" attack.

You're right, hit and run, drive-by type shootings, by their nature are hard to defend against. Near as I can tell, this was planned with the express intent to create havoc and allow the shooter(s) to get away.

I suspect that the actual incident didn't last more than a few seconds and the shooter(s) faded into the crowd and mayhem they created.

The police say its a flare-up of street violence...and it may be. But, to me, it almost seems like a probe to test for response.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Same with the Ft Hood shooting

Really, there were armed folks at Ft. Hood? Inside the building? I'm thinking; not.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 11:58 am

From what I´ve read, it looks like a fight between members of different gangs or criminals. The victims didn´t seem to have been especially targeted, but were more "in the wrong place at the wrong time"and got hit by stray bullets. If the general public were deliberately targeted, we would have seen several people killed. It wouldn´t be surprised if the guns used were some cheap "saturday night specia"l handguns.

Jan

[Edited 2013-05-13 04:59:57]
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falstaff
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 12:40 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
it looks like a fight between members of different gangs or criminals

When I heard about the shooting the first thing I thought of was street gang violence. NOLA is loaded with that kind of thing.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Really, there were armed folks at Ft. Hood? Inside the building? I'm thinking; not.

Exactly.... Some people think military bases are loaded with people who are walking around with guns, which is not true I have never been on an Army base, but judging from the USAF and USN bases I have on been people aren't armed.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Looks like the NRA sent a Mother's Day card

Street gangs and the NRA have nothing to do with each other. I have been to a a number of NRA annual meetings and I doubt there would be a gang member within sight of that event. The sheer volume of police officers who attend would scare those types away.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
but from what I've heard it's still not a nice place even after Katrina drove some of the troublemakers out.

They came back....

Was it a real parade or just some stupid even cooked up by some community group. Yesterday I saw Women Walking Woodward for Peace", in Detroit. That event got no press coverage but if something happened during it, it would have made all the media outlets.

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
There were armed cops around and yet the shooting occurred

Like a bunch of street thugs would care about that. The NOLA police have been recognized over and over and over as a corrupt force. I doubt a lot of street gang members take them seriously.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 8):
It was a second-line parade
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 7:23 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
Exactly.... Some people think military bases are loaded with people who are walking around with guns, which is not true I have never been on an Army base, but judging from the USAF and USN bases I have on been people aren't armed.

Yup. Normally the military have very strict rules about the carriage of the service weapons, especially outside a warzone in a garrison. The weapons are usually kept under lock and key in the barracks armoury, and the soldiers only get them, against signature, if ordered so by their superiors, and then only for duty purposes. After the duty is finished (training, standing guard etc.) they´ll have to clean their weapins and then return them to trhe armoury.
The only soldiers seen with weapons inside a typical military installation in peacetime outside a warzone (where the camp might be attacked at any time, so the soldiers will have to be ready to fight instantly) are the guards and military police on duty, except if a unit goes on a training exercise, where they would need their weapons.
Ammunition is similarly restricted. In most militaries each round has to be accounted for (again in peacetime outside a warzone) and the military keep strict control on the ammunition to prevent accidents, e.g. at any time a soldier can only have one type of ammunition on him: either live ammunition, blanks or inert exercise ammunition, so that the possibility of one soldier accidentally shooting another one through a mixup of ammunition types ("but I thought there were blank rounds in the magazine!")is reduced.
I would be surprised if the US military would be different. The US Army in West Berlin defintely banned the private possession of large knives inside the barracks. A GI friend of mine back in the 1980s, with who I used to go scuba diving, asked me to keep his diving knife in my place for him, since it was not allowed inside his barracks.

Jan
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cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
The weapons are usually kept under lock and key in the barracks armoury, and the soldiers only get them, against signature, if ordered so by their superiors, and then only for duty purposes.

We always kept our weapons in our lockers. Bolt in one and the rest in another. Never ammunition in the lockers.
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DocLightning
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 8:35 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Living in New Orleans, you can't say the panic is unjustified. They have the pretty parts for the tourists, but from what I've heard it's still not a nice place even after Katrina drove some of the troublemakers out.

No, I mean the kid. Perfect setup for PTSD in a 10yo brain.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 8:44 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 14):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
The weapons are usually kept under lock and key in the barracks armoury, and the soldiers only get them, against signature, if ordered so by their superiors, and then only for duty purposes.

We always kept our weapons in our lockers. Bolt in one and the rest in another. Never ammunition in the lockers.

What i described is the way they do it in the German and British armies.

Jan
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
There were armed cops around and yet the shooting occurred. Turns out that having armed guards around doesn't seem to stop this sort of "hit-and-run" attack.

Oh c'mon, you want to make this political? Probably some gangsta's arguing over turf. And with a crowd, unless the cop is standing 5 feet behind the perp, there is not much he can do.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 6):
A mothers day parade, who the hell has a mothers day parade?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
I have no idea. In general, I find parades to be an incredible nuisance even when they don't include gunfire.

Hey, It's N'awlins. They have parades for funerals. The French Quarter is made for parties and parades. If you don't like them, don't live there.
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B777LRF
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Mon May 13, 2013 11:02 pm

I suppose we've all seen the stills by now. Doesn't look anything remotely like gang wars or drive-by shootings, rather it looks like a dude waiting until the time is just right before unloading into the middle of the crowd.

The stills are also a perfect example of why the whole idea of "an armed citizen will be able to fight off the perpetrators" is idiotic. It's blindingly obvious, at least when it comes to untrained civilians, that human nature takes over at the first sound of gun fire, and that nature is to duck and run - not to stand and fight.
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 12:39 am

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):
Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
There were armed cops around and yet the shooting occurred. Turns out that having armed guards around doesn't seem to stop this sort of "hit-and-run" attack.

   Same with the Ft Hood shooting
Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
Exactly.... Some people think military bases are loaded with people who are walking around with guns, which is not true I have never been on an Army base, but judging from the USAF and USN bases I have on been people aren't armed.

LOL I was gonna comment on this actually... military bases are some of the most stringent gun control zones there are. A huge chunk of servicemembers are CCW holders but none of them are armed.

Yeah, I don't get why some people think we all run around with M-4s, rounds loaded in the chamber. Even when going to the range, they essentially baby you when you have any rounds and they check to make sure you're unloaded about a million times after you're done. Worst example ever
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fr8mech
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 1:04 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 18):
The stills are also a perfect example of why the whole idea of "an armed citizen will be able to fight off the perpetrators" is idiotic. It's blindingly obvious, at least when it comes to untrained civilians, that human nature takes over at the first sound of gun fire, and that nature is to duck and run - not to stand and fight.

Actually, that's a very good and strong instinct. Duck and cover would be my first instinct. But, one question, just an itty bitty question:

What if the shooter decides to continue shooting? You know, he starts targeting individuals? Cornering them were they took cover? What then?

In this case, the police (armed people) would have probably gotten to him (I hope they're better shots than the NYPD was last year).

But, what if there aren't any police?
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MSYtristar
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 2:37 am

They have a suspect. Nice work NOPD (for a change).

http://www.wwltv.com/news/NOPD-names...others-Day-shooting-207306761.html

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 2):
Living in New Orleans, you can't say the panic is unjustified. They have the pretty parts for the tourists, but from what I've heard it's still not a nice place even after Katrina drove some of the troublemakers out.

Just like most places there are good areas and bad areas. 95% of the violent crime takes place in older residential areas where the only reason you'd go there would be if you lived there.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
When I heard about the shooting the first thing I thought of was street gang violence. NOLA is loaded with that kind of thing.

Most of it is drug related and isolated in several older areas of the city. It's unfortunate from time to time innocent bystanders get caught in the line of fire. The people who are doing this have no concern for human life and really no concern for their future because chances are they'll get caught eventually.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 8:29 am

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 18):
The stills are also a perfect example of why the whole idea of "an armed citizen will be able to fight off the perpetrators" is idiotic. It's blindingly obvious, at least when it comes to untrained civilians, that human nature takes over at the first sound of gun fire, and that nature is to duck and run - not to stand and fight.

actually this is what you should do, armed or not (and what soldiers get trained to do). Hear shots, duck, cover, assess the situation (where are the shots coming from? Can you see the shooter? How many of them are there? Where are they? How are they armed? Where are my friends? Can they help me in the fight? How can I coordinate with them? What tactics to use?) and then react and fight back. The last thing you would want an armed (good) person to do is to shoot randomly around, hoping to hit a bad guy.

Jan
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B777LRF
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 11:52 am

MD11 Engineer:

I know that, having served as an officer in the army back in my younger and more foolish days. It does seem, however, that some people have been watching way too many Hollywood productions, and believe an armed civilian would be just the ticket in a gunfight against an armed terrorist. Chances are the civilian would be either dead or, if he's lucky and quick, has made his escape and lost contact with the terrorist.

What does work is having paramilitary types, exquistly trained, highly alert and always kept abreast of posible threats. Israel has gone and done that, posting military types in civilian clothes to protect schools. No doubt they'll enjoy a high level of success, but only because of their training and level of alertness and knowledge. It is not a job for Joe Six Pack and his Glock, out shopping on a Saturday afternoon in the malls.
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fr8mech
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 1:23 pm

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 23):
. Chances are the civilian would be either dead or,

That civilian may be dead anyway. Don't just look at this shooting. My guess, is that if this wasn't a "gang-related" shoot-out, it was just some sick guy looking to get a reaction or just wanted to see what it felt like to shoot people.

This appears to have been planned so that the shooter(s) could get away. A couple of seconds of shooting and fade away. There is just about no way to defend against this, nor stop it when it starts.

The real ugly happens when the shooter starts to hunt.

Look at Aurora, Newtown, Virginia Tech, Nickel Mines, Fort Hood, etc. These are all places where an immediate armed response may have resulted in less deaths.

Quoting B777LRF (Reply 23):

What does work is having paramilitary types, exquistly trained, highly alert and always kept abreast of posible threats. Israel has gone and done that, posting military types in civilian clothes to protect schools

In Israel, it is a national security matter. Here, in the US, it is a criminal matter. Now, if we can tie some of these shootings to a larger, national security threat, e.g. terrorists making random attacks through-out the country, you can make a case that the military should be involved.

Speaking of military and/or para-military police forces: have they started going door to door searching homes in New Orleans? I mean, this guy is still a threat, isn't he? Instead of an indiscriminate shooter, he could have easily been an indiscriminate killer, with a few aimed shots.
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Mir
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 2:13 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
Street gangs and the NRA have nothing to do with each other.

Except that the policies of one help the policies of the other, and vice versa.

-Mir
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cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 3:07 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24):
Look at Aurora, Newtown, Virginia Tech, Nickel Mines, Fort Hood, etc. These are all places where an immediate armed response may have resulted in less deaths.

Or more deaths, just saying.

Guns everywhere promoters constantly state that if people had been allowed to carry then this and that shooting would not have happened, or less people would have been injured/dead. Why is it that in a state that is shall issue and allow open carry they did not manage to stop this guy?

When the guns everywhere promoters claim that one incident in a gun free zone indicate that gun control doesn't work how isn't this an example of that arming civilians doesn't work?

And how did the shooter get the weapon(s) used?
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brilondon
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 3:15 pm

So this is what you get in a violent society that is the U.S.A. Yeah, lets all get guns for protection. Where you guys with your guns to prevent this from happening.
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seb146
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 3:24 pm

Quoting falstaff (Reply 12):
Street gangs and the NRA have nothing to do with each other.

They sure do! NRA Is defending the right to carry and use guns any where, any time and street gangs are exercising that right.

I didn't surprise me New Orleans had a Mother's Day parade. They like parades and parties, so why not? It also, unfortunately, didn't surprise me there was a shooting there. What did surprise me is: no one was killed.
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Dreadnought
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 5:01 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 27):
So this is what you get in a violent society that is the U.S.A. Yeah, lets all get guns for protection. Where you guys with your guns to prevent this from happening.

Just a question: Was any of the victims (or the shooter) a member of the NRA?
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 6:15 pm

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):

They sure do! NRA Is defending the right to carry and use guns any where, any time and street gangs are exercising that right.

Absolutely. If an individual had no priors, than yes, the NRA is in fact rabidly in favor of that person carrying a gun around, even if they're in a Gang. It's not hard to see that the NRA favors arming Gangs.
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Dreadnought
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):
Absolutely. If an individual had no priors, than yes, the NRA is in fact rabidly in favor of that person carrying a gun around, even if they're in a Gang.

LOL, now that's a stretch. Can anyone recall a gang member who was also an NRA member?
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 6:49 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
Can anyone recall a gang member who was also an NRA member?

First, are saying that this is impossible?



Second, would they have to be?

The NRA is unambiguously in favor of and lobbies with criminal aggression for as many people to have as many guns as possible. Gang members without felonies are indeed better able to commit violent crimes because of the NRA's actions.

And since you bring it up, even felon Gang members are better off by the NRA's actions in that the NRA opposes background checks and lobbies to keep it easy for un-backgrounded private sales to continue.

If I were a Gang member, I'd be an NRA member too. Funny who you find yourself in bed with sometimes Dreadnought.
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fr8mech
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 6:58 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 26):
Or more deaths, just saying.

Yup, it's certainly possible. What we do know, as facts that the in the incidents I cited:

-all were in gun free zones, (with the possible exception of Nickel Mines),
-that no one other than the shooter produced a firearm
-that the shooting (and killing) stopped when the shooter was confronted or pursued by armed personnel

Just saying.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
They sure do! NRA Is defending the right to carry and use guns any where, any time and street gangs are exercising that right.

Show me exactly where the NRA endorses arming anyone in a gang.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 28):
What did surprise me is: no one was killed.

I'm not sure I'm surprised about that. It was indiscriminate, un-aimed shooting. I wonder what the forensics reports will say about the trajectory of the bullets. All fired too low to hit vitals? I don't know. Definitely an undisciplined attack. Like I said, it looked more like someone trying to get a reaction.

Sick.
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cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 31):
LOL, now that's a stretch. Can anyone recall a gang member who was also an NRA member?

A stretch is to suggest a gang member must be a NRA member to benefit from NRA's actions. But can you guarantee that no gang member is or have been a NRA member?

More importantly, can you guarantee that NRA actions have not resulted in gang members gaining access to weapons? How about other criminals?
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fr8mech
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 7:36 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
More importantly, can you guarantee that NRA actions have not resulted in gang members gaining access to weapons? How about other criminals?

That's like asking to guarantee that AAA's advocacy hasn't resulted in more car accidents.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Mir
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 7:45 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Show me exactly where the NRA endorses arming anyone in a gang.

They'll never publicly say that, of course. But there's no question that the positions that they push make it very easy for gangs to obtain weapons through legal sales. And they seem to have no problem with that.

-Mir
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cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 7:55 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 35):
That's like asking to guarantee that AAA's advocacy hasn't resulted in more car accidents.

How do you figure that? Very limited knowledge about AAA so look forward to see you tell me what laws they have promoted that equal the laws NRA promote.
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Dreadnought
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 8:30 pm

Quoting cmf (Reply 34):
A stretch is to suggest a gang member must be a NRA member to benefit from NRA's actions. But can you guarantee that no gang member is or have been a NRA member?

More importantly, can you guarantee that NRA actions have not resulted in gang members gaining access to weapons? How about other criminals?

No more than you can admit to me that generally well-meaning social programs for the poor have not resulted in increasing urban blight, explosions in teen pregnancy, and an ongoing cycle of poverty.
Forget dogs and cats - Spay and neuter your liberals.
 
cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Tue May 14, 2013 8:38 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 38):
No more than you can admit to me that generally well-meaning social programs for the poor have not resulted in increasing urban blight, explosions in teen pregnancy, and an ongoing cycle of poverty.

No idea how this is relevant to this discussion? Why the move away from the topic at hand?
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fr8mech
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 12:54 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 37):
How do you figure that? Very limited knowledge about AAA so look forward to see you tell me what laws they have promoted that equal the laws NRA promote.

Let's see, AAA provides insurance, so does the NRA.
AAA provides training, so does the NRA.
AAA advocates for better rules and regulations that make it easier for automobile owners to own and operate their vehicles, the NRA does the same for gun owners (and non-gun owners).
AAA is an advocacy group just like the NRA.
AAA will provide training to felons so that they can learn to drive, my guess is that an NRA instructor would boot a person from the class if he found out he was a felon.

I suspect that AAA has put more killers on the road than the NRA has.

They are more similar than different.

[Edited 2013-05-14 18:02:08]
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cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 40):
I suspect that AAA has put more killers on the road than the NRA has.

In what state does attending a couple hours of AAA training mean you get your license?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 40):
my guess is that an NRA instructor would boot a person from the class if he found out he was a felon.

Then why did NRA support the The Firearm Owners' Protection Act?
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Dreadnought
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 2:55 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 41):
Then why did NRA support the The Firearm Owners' Protection Act?

From Wiki:

The Firearm Owners' Protection Act lists the following as prohibited from owning a firearm:

Anyone who has been convicted in any court of a felony punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year, excluding those crimes punishable by imprisonment related to the regulation of business practices, whose full civil rights have not been restored by the State in which the firearms disability was first imposed. [10] [11]
Anyone who is a fugitive from justice.
Anyone who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substances.
Anyone who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or has been involuntarily committed to a mental institution.
Any alien illegally or unlawfully in the United States or an alien admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa. The exception is if the nonimmigrant is in possession of a valid hunting license issued by a US state and/or has been granted a waiver from the Attorney General.
Anyone who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.
Anyone who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his or her citizenship.
Anyone that is subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner or child of such intimate partner. (Added in 1996, with the Lautenberg Amendment.)
Anyone who has been convicted of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence. (Added in 1996, with the Lautenberg Amendment)[12]
A person who is under indictment or information for a crime (misdemeanor) punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding two years cannot lawfully receive a firearm. Such person may continue to lawfully possess firearms obtained prior to the indictment or information, and if cleared or acquitted can receive firearms without restriction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearm_Owners_Protection_Act

So what are you talking about? In fact it sounds like if these restrictions were enforced the vast majority of gun violence would disappear. Ergo, no new laws needed, just enforce the existing ones.
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cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 3:16 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
Firearm Owners' Protection Act

Don't try to change topic again. You have outstanding claims to support.
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Dreadnought
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 3:29 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
Don't try to change topic again.

You brought it up and asked a direct question (or rather, an implication).

Quoting cmf (Reply 43):
You have outstanding claims to support.

Do I? Pls specify.
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cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 3:50 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 44):
Do I? Pls specify.

This

Quoting DarkSnowyNight (Reply 30):
Absolutely. If an individual had no priors, than yes, the NRA is in fact rabidly in favor of that person carrying a gun around, even if they're in a Gang.

You connecting it with a gang member being a NRA member doesn't answer the question. Interestingly DarkSnowyNight's statements connects back to parts of the Firearm Owners' Protection Act you didn't include in your later post.
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 4:25 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 45):
This

I suggest you ask Snowy why he thinks "the NRA is in fact rabidly in favor of that person carrying a gun around, even if they're in a Gang". I find the argument ludicrous.

Quoting cmf (Reply 45):
You connecting it with a gang member being a NRA member doesn't answer the question.

I implied the opposite. NRA members tend to be exceedingly responsible with their guns. It is very rare for NRA members to be found committing gun-related crimes, compared to the general population. If you ever attended an NRA class, 95% of the class is dedicated to responsibility and understanding what the law allows you to do and not to do.
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cmf
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 4:58 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):

I suggest you ask Snowy why he thinks "the NRA is in fact rabidly in favor of that person carrying a gun around, even if they're in a Gang". I find the argument ludicrous.

Your response to his statement certainly was ludicrous.

What he stated is very straight forward. That because NRA is against every form of gun control they make it easy for those who should not have weapons to get them. Was it ever made clear where David Michael Keene got his weapon and if his father knew he had it?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 46):
I implied the opposite. NRA members tend to be exceedingly responsible with their guns. It is very rare for NRA members to be found committing gun-related crimes, compared to the general population. If you ever attended an NRA class, 95% of the class is dedicated to responsibility and understanding what the law allows you to do and not to do.

I did not imply you suggested gang members are NRA members. But your statement that NRA members commit less gun related crimes than the general population is another ludicrous statement. The general population does not own guns and thus are extremely unlikely to commit gun related crimes.

But to bring it back to the point. It doesn't matter what NRA members do themselves when their actions is what enables other gun owners to do things they should not do. This is what DarkSnowyNight was referring to. The result of NRA's actions. Not just when a NRA member is holding the gun during a crime.
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Mir
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 5:50 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
In fact it sounds like if these restrictions were enforced the vast majority of gun violence would disappear. Ergo, no new laws needed, just enforce the existing ones.

That argument went very stale a very long time ago. Yeah, a list of all the people who aren't supposed to have guns is great, but unless they're forced to wear clothes that say "I'm a felon" or "I got a dishonorable discharge" or anything else that would identify them as restricted from owning a gun, they can just walk into a gun show and buy plenty of guns from an honest seller without the seller being any the wiser. Or you'd have a dishonest seller who knew the buyer was a felon, but proving that the seller knew is virtually impossible. Thus, the law is pretty much unenforceable, and it's all thanks to other laws that the NRA has lobbied for (and continues to lobby for).

If we had a background check law, then the honest seller would know that the person he's about to sell to is a felon, and he presumably wouldn't make the sale. And the dishonest seller would have a very hard time claiming that he had no idea that the buyer was a felon if he had a background check stating such. That would actually make the law enforceable. But the NRA said no.

So don't try and tell me the NRA just wants the existing laws to be enforced. They've not only not tried to help in that cause, they've actively worked against it.

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Dreadnought
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RE: 12-19 Shot In Nola Mother's Day Parade.

Wed May 15, 2013 5:52 am

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
Your response to his statement certainly was ludicrous.

What he stated is very straight forward. That because NRA is against every form of gun control they make it easy for those who should not have weapons to get them.

Check your history. The NRA was a supporter of key gun control legislation since the 1930s, particularly to control the gang wars of the time (eg Al Capone). They also supported gun control legislation through the 80s which (as listed above). Historically, the NRA has been against two things - 1) Anti-gun laws written by the Absolutists (the "all guns are bad" crowd), and 2) In the old days of racial segregation and Jim Crowe, laws which would restrict the rights of blacks to own guns (Since the 1870s, one of the key priorities of the NRA was to arm newly freed black people and train them to defend themselves from the likes of the KKK)

I think you would find that if laws were proposed that specifically targeted those people who should not be armed, they might be much more willing to play ball. But when you treat all gun owners as potential madmen and criminals, you won't get anything but blockage from them.

And by the way, I'm not an NRA member, and don't always agree with them.

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
I did not imply you suggested gang members are NRA members. But your statement that NRA members commit less gun related crimes than the general population is another ludicrous statement. The general population does not own guns and thus are extremely unlikely to commit gun related crimes.

Oh, so now you are saying that only NRA members own guns, and nobody else owns any guns.

Pretty good stuff you are smoking...

Quoting cmf (Reply 47):
But to bring it back to the point. It doesn't matter what NRA members do themselves when their actions is what enables other gun owners to do things they should not do. This is what DarkSnowyNight was referring to. The result of NRA's actions. Not just when a NRA member is holding the gun during a crime.

How can you blame the NRA? They have proven through their history to be amenable to sensible regulations. Propose some.
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