channelhopper
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TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 7:52 am

The Sunday Times in London reported this week that TK has banned flight attendants with bleached hair, and also the serving of alcohol in Economy.
This follows the unsuccessful attempt by the influential ''Muslim bourgeoisie'' to ban flight attendants from wearing red lipstick.
This all seems a little far fetched, but the Sunday Times is a respected newspaper, so perhaps someone can shed some light on this?
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 7:57 am

I can't comment on this specific situation, but:

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):
serving of alcohol in Economy

Sounds to me like costcutting, rather than religious considerations (if this is true, which I doubt). If there were legitimate religious grounds then they would apply equally in J as Y. I fully respect the right of SV, KU, BI etc to not serve alcohol due to religious considerations, but they apply their policy equally across all cabins.

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):
flight attendants with bleached hair

As for this, it sounds like the lipstick issue, and the consensus on here that it was more about staff grooming than religion.

To be brutally honest, I believe that the "Islamization" of Turkey is overstated by Western media.
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leftyboarder
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 8:05 am

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):

The Sunday Times in London reported this week that TK has banned flight attendants with bleached hair, and also the serving of alcohol in Economy.
This follows the unsuccessful attempt by the influential ''Muslim bourgeoisie'' to ban flight attendants from wearing red lipstick.
This all seems a little far fetched, but the Sunday Times is a respected newspaper, so perhaps someone can shed some light on this?

Somewhat biased journalism.

First of all, TK did not serve alcohol in economy on domestic sectors, only business, and this has been eliminated on sectors within Turkey. Alcohol is still available in economy on int'l sectors, as well as business.

Secondly, dress code for FAs is nothing new, and unlike diners or night clubs, bleached hair or lipstick with glitter doesn't go well with the rather modest image a flag carrier airline aims to reflect. OTOH, lipstick in pastel colors is in fact mandatory, rather than being banned. FAs cannot choose to not wear lipstick indeed.

There is a schism in TK management regarding Muslim values and global values, that is true, but for now that hasn't really shown up in the cabin.
 
behramjee
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 8:13 am

well Arabian Business is reporting that the current TK CEO is in hot water big time

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/turki...oubt-amid-lipstick-ban-501409.html

Suspended Turkish Airlines CEO Temel Kotil’s future with the Turkish flag carrier hangs in the balance as the airline’s board meets to decide his fate, just days after scrapping a controversial ban on female flight attendants wearing red lipstick and nail polish and which he blamed on junior executives.

The airline’s board will decide on Kotil’s fate when it convenes on Tuesday morning, sources told the Bloomberg news agency. The move comes just days after he was stripped of his duties after a disagreement with company chairman Hamdi Topcu, Turkish newspaper Milliyet reported on Sunday.

The CEO’s suspension is believed to have been triggered by an embarrassing u-turn on a decision to ban female flight attendants wearing red lipstick or nail varnish, as well as disagreements over the timeline for plane orders and the handling of a strike which led to over 305 staff being fired, Milliyet claimed.

In Friday, Kotil moved to quash a controversial ban on female flight attendants wearing red lipstick and nail polish, after an outcry by secular Turks worried the country is becoming too Islamic.

The national carrier had said in a statement this month the use of red and dark pink lipstick and nail polish would impair the "visual integrity" of its staff. However, Kotil told Reuters the order was made by over-zealous junior managers who did not consult senior bosses about the initiative.

"As to the lipstick, we had no problems but somehow low-level managers put together a paper without asking us and that paper leaked to the media and became a big issue," Kotil told reporters in London.

Asked whether there was a ban, he said "no", and confirmed female staff could wear lipstick and nail polish of any colour.

"As you know, some in Turkey are a little bit keen about these issues," said the fast-talking, US-educated Kotil, who has served as chief executive since 2005. "We are a great global carrier and we know what we are doing."

In a presentation, Kotil forecast operating revenue would rise to $9.749 billion in 2013 from $8.318 billion last year. No net income guidance was given. A decade ago in 2003, operating revenue was $1.898 billion.

The airline, which says it flies to more countries than any other carrier, aims to increase passenger numbers to 46 million this year from 39 million last.

Aviation union Hava-Is has threatened to strike this month over pay but Kotil was optimistic such action could be averted.

"We love the union, we love our employees... and hopefully we can find a solution," he said.

Turkish Airlines has not yet publically commented on Kotil suspension or future role with the airline.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 8:22 am

Quoting behramjee (Reply 3):
We love the union

LOL. that's a first!
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
777way
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 9:12 am

I think the topic title should be changed, I bet El Al and Judism would be deleted or changed if started in regards to the sbbath day off.

Also issue discussed in TK av thread and a seprate one, now they are out to malign TK because they are threatening Europaen carriers, its seeming like an agenda, thisi will keep coming up.

Would anyone care if airlines like Lufthansa or JAL had issued such grooming orders.

[Edited 2013-05-14 02:33:59]
 
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OA260
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 10:54 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):

Why its a valid topic and one that is actually being discussed in wider Turkish society. EL AL and religion are quite linked so feel free to set up a topic.

As for other airlines LH have a very multi cultural and multi faith employee base and rarely do these issues arise. When they do there is a huge debate ! Remember the BA Christian cross issue?

Censorship is worse than having an in depth debate !!
 
IndianicWorld
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 11:07 am

It sounds more like a case of bad management than anything else on this occasion.

Blaming junior managers for this is comical, as either that shows that the company is being run by people making their own agenda or that management have made the decision, seen the reaction and decided to blame others. Either way is bad.

TK have grown so fast over the last decade and along with this comes a need to review their ops and make sure that management control is still in place.
 
777way
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 11:21 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):

Its been discussed before did you not read those posts and topic? and I don't recall the BA topic being titiled BA and Christianity or was it?
 
Bobloblaw
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 1:26 pm

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):

It it was simple cost cutting, then they just charge for alcohol.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
I think the topic title should be changed, I bet El Al and Judism would be deleted or changed if started in regards to the sbbath day off.

There you'd be wrong. A simple search brings up a title which combines El Al with religion:

Divinewrath Strikes Shabbat-breaking El Al, Say R (by El Al 001 Dec 5 2006 in Civil Aviation)
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777way
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 2:01 pm

^ I meant topic title as stated in the example in my post.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 11):
I meant topic title as stated in the example in my post.

Another example:

El Al & Shabbat (by El Al 001 Jul 8 2000 in Civil Aviation)

Just because no one's made a topic named exactly "El Al & Judaism" in the past, doesn't mean it would be disallowed.

Regardless, the proper place to debate topic-naming issues is with the moderators in e-mail, not in the thread.
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incitatus
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 5):
Also issue discussed in TK av thread and a seprate one, now they are out to malign TK because they are threatening Europaen carriers, its seeming like an agenda, thisi will keep coming up.

No need for TK to threaten European carriers. European carriers are being maimed by their own governments.

Quoting IndianicWorld (Reply 7):
It sounds more like a case of bad management than anything else on this occasion.

Exactly my thought. Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go.
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Clydenairways
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 2:15 pm

Airlines have gotten media attention over religion and grooming regulations before.

BA versus Nadia Eweida.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...d-discrimination-silver-cross.html
 
777way
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 12):

another useless example Shabbat, Saturday, Friday, Sunday, vs christianity, judism, islam in title, no comparison to this one ridiculous that an av forum is allowing it.

Quoting incitatus (Reply 13):
Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go.

and them scrambling to fly everywhere possible is what?

Quoting OA260 (Reply 6):
As for other airlines LH have a very multi cultural and multi faith employee base and rarely do these issues arise.

grooming standards have nothing to do with religion or multicultralism, LH could impose these standards on their crew but I guess it would not bother anyone.

Also Egypt Air cabin crew demanded they be allowed to war hijab, and won, howcome that hasn't ruffled any feathers and everyone is on TK's case.

[Edited 2013-05-14 07:29:59]
 
9w748capt
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 3:28 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
Also Egypt Air cabin crew demanded they be allowed to war hijab, and won, howcome that hasn't ruffled any feathers and everyone is on TK's case.

Turkey is far more secular than Egypt, so you're comparing apples and oranges. Turkey has a powerful elite that is very pro-secular - Egypt not so much.

I agree the thread title is a little misleading perhaps - but it's not entirely off the mark either. These are real issues with TK - if they're going to keep growing like gangbusters they have to tackle these internal issues at some point.
 
PanHAM
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
LH could impose these standards on their crew but I guess it would not bother anyone.

LH does indeed demand a certain standard from their cabin attendants and of course all other personell. However, this isw in no way influenced by religion. All so called "western countries" are secular. Religion does not interfere and that is the difference.

When BA does not want their staff to wear religious symbols than is that a company decision.
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FCAFLYBOY
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 4:29 pm

Provided they keep the good stuff coming, and free, in Y class, this is a non-issue.

However, if they don't, then their proposed and current massive expansion is likely to be hit, and hit hard.

Not because no one can bear a flight without booze, but rather there are plentiful other options (I don't need to name them I'm sure) and pax, especially from western cultures, are likely to be put off flying an airline perceived to be 'Islamic' rather than Turkish. EY/EK/QR don't have an issue with serving alcohol to all, so why should TK? It will hurt them if they don't.

Yes there are airlines where, for many many years, this has been the same. Saudia and Kuwait spring to mind. But look at the size of their operations by comparison, and their main markets. This will not go down well with many of the flying public.

Don't spoil it for yourselves now TK. Worrying to see them becoming so religion-led in such modern times too.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 5:49 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):

What difference does it make whether grooming standards are determined by a bunch of old German men with secular beliefs or old Turkish men with religious beliefs? Secularism is as ideological and dogmatic as any religion (as is apparent in the BA case).

The BA case, IMHO, is much more serious, since i take freedom of religion far more seriously than the freedom to drink alcohol or wear make up. I don't think it's a stretch to suggest that if TK had banned an FA from wearing a cross, it would lead to a lot of self-righteous criticism from the same lot who turn a blind eye towards European companies.

I suppose the real question is: what makes the imposition of rules based on secular ideals more acceptable than rules based on religious ideals? Apart from the implicit reliance on the national origin of those ideas?
 
PanHAM
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 19):
What difference does it make whether grooming standards are determined by a bunch of old German men

If you know the history of that company a bit you will find that these standards have been developed by middle age ladies on the grounds of good manners already in the 1950s and FA training is based on that legacy. Always catching up with the times of course

German DAX listed companies and most others are based on tolerance and equal opportunity employment. Religion does not take a part there and I do not see secularism as an ideologie. Rather so that religion does not have a place in a company as a person's belief is her/his private matter. That is an ideal rather than an ideology.

What BA did, banning crosses or stars of david is an act of intolerance, advancing obedience to those who might be offended. Wrong policy.

Back to TK, it looks a bit like a storm in a tea cup. Kotil is back in office but thy have to watch it. if they want to keep up their pace of expansion they must stay attractive to all.
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ElPistolero
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
If you know the history of that company a bit you will find that these standards have been developed by middle age ladies on the grounds of good manners already in the 1950s and FA training is based on that legacy.

Either which way, TK FAs aren't being told how to behave nor are their manners changing. The two big bones of contention here are:

1) Make-up/lipstick/dyed hair - These have no impact on how the crew conduct themselves. Many employers have codes on this - how many private financial institutions will tolerate a worker coming into work wearing Goth makeup? Personally, I don't see an issue with this, since it appears to be aimed more at uniformity, as well as a nod to the cultural norms of Turkey.

I will acknowledge that Turkish cultural norms are being revised to incorporate more religion after a well-intentioned (IMHO) but poorly implemented secularism that overreached by infringing on Turkish cultural identity. Like others, I question the notion that this is about "Islam". This is more likely about Turkish cultural idenitty, that draws to some degree from Islam (but which also draws from Ataturkian secularism). To put it in perspective, 9W and AI don't serve beef out of deference to Hindu norms. Yet they are perfectly secular carriers - one state-owned, one private - in one of the more religiously diverse countries in the world.

2) Alcohol on 'some' routes: Its not abnormal for airlines to not serve alcohol on certain flights. IIRC, Indian airlines are not allowed to serve alchohol on domestic flights. If TK decides to stop serving alchohol on certain routes, what does that have to do with religion? It may simply be down to traffic on that route not being particularly keen on alchohol. Now, if they expand it system-wide, then you have a point, but unless I'm mistaken, they haven't made any announcement to that effect.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
German DAX listed companies and most others are based on tolerance and equal opportunity employment.

Has TK announced that it won't be hiring non-Muslim FAs? Or that it won't be carrying non-Muslim pax?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Religion does not take a part there and I do not see secularism as an ideologie.

Look south towards France. Secularism has become an ideology. Turkish secularism was similar - replace "God" with "No God" and apply new rules that put restrictions on how people can express their religion. That is what prompted the backlash that this religion-leaning government in Turkey rode to power. Cultural identity is difficult to alter - pulling out ingredients from it and hoping the people will let it go only works under brutal authoritarian regimes a la North Korea, the Soviet Union or Maoist China (note how Buddhism has risen - think Falun Gong - as the state became more liberal). Turkey could not erase religion out of its history, its narratives, its myths and other things that inform national identity. Hence the resurgence. Its temporary - like any wave it will lose its steam once its reached its peak.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
Rather so that religion does not have a place in a company as a person's belief is her/his private matter.

If a company serves customers directly, it has to make an effort to cater to their preferences. TK is a Turkish airline that has to take Turkish sensibilities into account. Just as Indian airlines take Indian sensibilities into account.

Suffice it to say, I see this as a sideshow by politicians who are heavily invested in bringing the religious aspects of Turkish culture to the fore. That said, I don't think it is going to lead to the Wahabbi-isation of the carrier. As is always the case in these issues, you'll see a little give, a little take, and some hollow cries of victory sooner or later. I don't anticipate any major change in TK FAs behavior or professionalism.
 
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DolphinAir747
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 9:51 pm

I think many people here are overreacting. Religion or not, TK is a company, and they are allowed to sell what they want to customers and not sell what they do not want. As for lipstick, they are still allowed to have rules on how their employees can and cannot dress, can they not? It's really that different from a financial firm imposing that its employees come to work in suits and ties rather than sweatpants and tank tops—it's just that people make a fuss whenever religion, specifically the perceived Islamization of Turkey, is mentioned.
 
777way
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 10:03 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):

LH does indeed demand a certain standard from their cabin attendants and of course all other personell. However, this isw in no way influenced by religion. All so called "western countries" are secular. Religion does not interfere and that is the difference.

When BA does not want their staff to wear religious symbols than is that a company decision.

same in TK situation, company decisions not influenced by religion.
 
Viscount724
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 10:37 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 21):
Has TK announced that it won't be hiring non-Muslim FAs?

Does TK hire foreign cabin crew? If not, it's unlikely they would have many non-Muslim FA's anyway since the population of Turkey is close to 99% Muslim, a much higher percentage than most other predominantly Muslim countries.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 11:09 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 24):
Does TK hire foreign cabin crew? If not, it's unlikely they would have many non-Muslim FA's anyway since the population of Turkey is close to 99% Muslim, a much higher percentage than most other predominantly Muslim countries.

Pretty sure I saw an Indian F/A on one of my flights out of DEL. That aside, my last Toronto - IST flight (end-March) did have a Canadian/US Captain or First Officer (Anglo name) doing the de-icing / pre-take off announcement.

My trips to Turkey haven't suggested a particularly conservative or religious crowd.
 
aryonoco
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RE: TK And Islam

Tue May 14, 2013 11:41 pm

So let me get this straight: The guy has been the CEO of TK since 2005, has overseen MASSIVE expansion of TK across the world, has turned this once joke of a carrier into a widely successful brand, and he's being suspended over lipstick? Really?

Now I don't really like the way he's blaming junior managers over the issue, but surely his record is good enough to survive a minor issue like this, no?

As for the title, I don't think it's necessarily misleading or wrong. However much I respect Recep Erdogan and his achievements, there is no denying that government in Turkey has become more Islamic-oriented since the AK party took power. Personally I don't have a problem with that, at the end of the day, aside from certain middle-to-upper class secular people in Istanbul and Izmir, most people of Turkey are religious and their government should rightfully reflect their views. How they go about achieving this while maintaining/advancing TK as a leading aviation carrier is an interesting question without an easy answer.
 
Istanbuler83
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 12:53 am

The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks. The government is now trying to ban alcohol totally from city centers and there are lots of other regulations passed through in recent years. But of course they are not honest and don't say it loud what they have actually in their mind.
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twincessna340a
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 1:01 am

TK is a business which has rules that stem from its culture, just like every other. Why is this a thread again?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 21):
Look south towards France. Secularism has become an ideology. Turkish secularism was similar - replace "God" with "No God" and apply new rules that put restrictions on how people can express their religion.

Secular/Secularity can't be an -ism, it's not a belief system...its an adjective or a state of being. All secular means is that something is independent of religious influence, religious neutrality, etc. Take the speed limit for example. That is secular, as is the belief that highways should be safe.

What you are describing is an extreme example of atheism, which is ironic because the means in which those ideals are spread is dogmatic itself; i.e. one of the main complaints atheists themselves have against existing religions. Which leads to atheism, in some contexts, to be viewed as a religion, and some people self proclaim it as their religion.

Which all means that if something is atheist, at least in the context you describe, it by definition can not be secular.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 1:39 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 27):
The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks. The government is now trying to ban alcohol totally from city centers and there are lots of other regulations passed through in recent years.

This is, indeed, alarming. One is much better off under a secular government, insofar as reason is not subject to the whims of faith.

At the same time, Turkish secularism has always been an imposed secularism that struggled to permeate through all levels of society. As alarming as the rise of the right is, it is ultimately an indictment of the military rulers who created a vacuum. The rise of religion is often a backlash against poor rule (as we see all over the world). One can only hope that reason and common sense will overcome dogma.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 28):
lar/Secularity can't be an -ism, it's not a belief system...its an adjective or a state of being.

Secularity can be an -ism. In today's world , it is an -ism.

It doesn't just serve as an adjective or state of being if it results in the creations of rules and regulations on participation in public space. Nor am I speaking of Atheism. Atheism rejects religion. Secularism does not reject religion, but it places certain constraints on religious behaviour and expression in public spaces. Under atheism, religion is seen as fundamentally wrong. Under secularism, freedom is seen as a private funciton that does not belong in public spaces.

Classic examples of secularism - that is, rules derived from the principles of secularity (as you call it) - include the former ban on hijabs (headscarves) in Turkey. That was not an atheist law - it did not ban religion. It was a secular law - it banned a certain type of religious expression in the public square. Similar examples abound in France - for example, the state is apathetic towards Sikhism as a religion, and Sikhs are free to practice it as they wish, but they are banned from wearing turbans - a fundamental article of faith - in public (for example, they Sikhs were not allowed to enter educational establishments if they wore turbans). That's not atheism - there is no rejection of God or Gods (and Godesses) or religion. There is simply a limit on religious expression based on the principles of secularity, at which point the latter seizes to be an adjective and becomes an -ism.

Don't get me wrong - I am all for secularity. And I am not a little alarmed by the issue with TK. However, it is their airline to build. And their airline to destroy. I don't think they will let it get out of hand. There's clearly some resistance within the airline to religious influences.
 
Centre
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):

And the point of this thread is....????
I have cut 4 times, and it's still short.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 5:32 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 27):
The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks

I was thinking about what I wrote overnight, and I should definitely been more nuanced.

I fully recognise that Islamisation is a very real force in Turkey, and it is something which I (as a non-Turk) have no right to comment on.

What I was trying to say is that over the past couple of years, as soon as just about anything happens in Turkey the Western media jump up and down with the term "Islamisation". Rather than promoting a thought provoking, reflective, and important debate on the subject, media instead play into the hands of the unknowledgable and biggots. Just by banding around the word "Islamisation" they pander to those who respond negatively to such terms, and stoop to common-lowest-denominator populism rather than educate the public about what is happening in Turkey. On the long run that is detrimental, both to Western society and to Turkey's relationship with the West (at a socio-cultural, rather than governmental, level).

I could be well of the mark, but that is my interpretation of how our media frame stories relating to Turkey. I probably haven't explained it very well, but that's my best shot.
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777way
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 5:47 am

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 25):
Pretty sure I saw an Indian F/A on one of my flights out of DEL.

Some Turks look extremely Indian its uncanny.

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 31):

don't you this topic title reflects same intent?
 
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OA260
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 9:44 am

Quoting Istanbuler83 (Reply 27):
The islamization of TK and Turkey is definetly not overstated by Western media. The situation is actually alarming for secular Turks. The government is now trying to ban alcohol totally from city centers and there are lots of other regulations passed through in recent years. But of course they are not honest and don't say it loud what they have actually in their mind.

Thats exactly what my Turkish friends say and indeed fear. Their view on the recent changes at TK is very much to do with religion and a power struggle between opposing parties. They feel that TK is being used as a tool to promote a cetain view rather than a business decision. I think thats the difference here. Unless people understand the current issues in Turkey at present its hard to understand the significance of the topic as we have seen above by some of the replies.
 
radiopolitic
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):
They feel that TK is being used as a tool to promote a cetain view rather than a business decision. I think thats the difference here. Unless people understand the current issues in Turkey at present its hard to understand the significance of the topic as we have seen above by some of the replies.

  
 
TK105
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):

I certainly agree with you.

But for a better understanding, I would like to make a short summary for what has changed during the last years. I also invite Turkish Aviation group to contribute further if I miss any point or make any mistake:

1. No more champaign (or alcohol in general) as a welcome drink for C passengers
2. Not serving alcohol to C passengers on certain domestic routes
3. Not serving alcohol to all passengers on certain international routes (KSA, Kuwait, Pakistan, etc)
4. Not distributing opposition newspapers on all routes
5. Lipstick and uniform issue for female F/As (also banning usage of any badge of Ataturk, Turkish Flag etc)
6. Allocating prayer rooms on all TK lounges in Turkey
7. Providing Holy Quran on AVOD System
8. Naming planes with Ottoman Palaces (previously it was only city, sea or river names)

Also DHMI (Government Airport Authority) has signed new agreements with some countries promising that flights will not have any alcoholic drinks (which I believe is against constitution).
 
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lightsaber
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 3:46 pm

Quoting channelhopper (Thread starter):
and also the serving of alcohol in Economy.

Why don't they charge?

Quoting RyanairGuru (Reply 1):
I fully respect the right of SV, KU, BI etc to not serve alcohol due to religious considerations, but they apply their policy equally across all cabins.

Which, IMHO, has impacted their business growth. e.g,. EK has used alcohol to attract customers and based on my travel, a good fraction of frequent fliers *need* that drink.   

But I respect their decision. I now know no booze in Y on TK. For me and my kids, no big deal.

But I'm planning a trip with my old boy scout buddies to Europe (and Turkey is on the list), and for the group, no alcohol in Y takes the airline off the list of possibilities.

Quoting twincessna340a (Reply 28):
TK is a business which has rules that stem from its culture, just like every other. Why is this a thread again?

Because they are making decisions that westerners like to be 'free.' TK may do as they please, but I'm interested to follow. This is like an old thread on how EK mandates all FAs accept a business card if offered. There was more intense debate on that topic... But as far as I'm concerned, TK hasn't done anything wrong. It just could influence customer preferences.

Lightsaber
"They did not know it was impossible, so they did it!" - Mark Twain
 
ElPistolero
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 3:48 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 33):

It's not that we aren't aware of what's going on in Turkey. Most of us are quite aware of the intricacies of the political situation. However, we are wary of blowing it out of proportion and letting people use it as a stick to beat TK with (and there are folk here who jump at the opportunity).

The reality is that TK has become a national symbol and is -and will continue to be - a medium for furthering political goals. I m not surprised that TK is in the crosshairs. But beyond the larger context of Turkish politics, what does this mean for TK as an airline?

Not much, I don't think. Most of the changes are superficial - make up here, bleached hair there. The food is already halal. They'll take away alcohol? I don't think that's a gamechanger - I doubt too many pax will avoid TK because of its no alcohol policy. At the end of the day, it's the value-for-money proposition that matters and if a glass of liquor alters that significantly for someone, then so be it.

Will TK become hostile to non-Muslims? Will TK FAs suddenly become devout? Will TK ban non-Muslim pax? I don't think so - not yet, anyway - but they're welcome to try. At which point I (and others) will take our custom elsewhere. I really think this is much ado about nothing, albeit with the benefit of giving defenders of the old guard a stock to beat yet another upstart ME carrier with.

While the debate in Turkey is obviously very serious, the ramifications for TK are generally superficial and unlikely to dent the management or service culture (barring a tipple or two). Anything more than that will reduce its glitter - and the interest that politicos are taking in it.
 
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OA260
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 4:07 pm

Quoting TK105 (Reply 35):
4. Not distributing opposition newspapers on all routes

Thats something I was not aware of and is kind of short sighted on TK's part if it is indeed policy.

Quoting TK105 (Reply 35):
Turkish Flag etc)

Whats the thinking behind that?

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
Most of us are quite aware of the intricacies of the political situation. However, we are wary of blowing it out of proportion and letting people use it as a stick to beat TK with (and there are folk here who jump at the opportunity).

Well I dont see it as beating a stick. One might say that using that excuse tries to censor such issues and might assist in letting them think its ok to use the company for political motives.

I have been a fan of TK before it was ''fashionble'' to do so. I flew them when they had their B727 and A310s when they were a small set up. I always said that they were one airline to watch and its exceeded all expectations. I just hope they dont ruin their product by banning things based on religion. Whatever people say Premium passengers like the frills which includes Champage and other premium brands. Do I think they will remove it on all International routes maybe not but maybe this is just a test to see if they can get away with it.
 
AM744
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 5:24 pm

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
Will TK FAs suddenly become devout?

Hopefully not. What if they don't want to and start becoming harassed in the workplace? Looks like they are becoming more resticted on their choices. Sad.

Quoting ElPistolero (Reply 37):
albeit with the benefit of giving defenders of the old guard a stock to beat yet another upstart ME carrier with.

I thought Turkey as a country was trying to sell itself as European. Guess not many are buying it and all those silly measures surely can't be helping.
 
TK105
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 5:27 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Quoting TK105 (Reply 35):
Turkish Flag etc)

Whats the thinking behind that?

I think TK management considers badges as a political statement.
 
ElPistolero
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 7:13 pm

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):

Censor?

I think one needs to draw a line between the political happenings in Turkey and the impact on TK. Conflating the two serves no purpose. The government shouldn't be using the airline for political purposes (not that that stops airlines from using governments for their own purposes), but that is just the way it is because of the relative immaturity of Turkish democracy (banning opposition newspapers is a new low IMHO). My biggest concern (as a new TK fan) is the service level and the money-for-value proposition. Alcohol ... I m apathetic. I ll have it of its available. I wont miss it if it's not. I don't think it's a major issue for most Y pax - if it was, well, have you seen AC TPAC Y catering of late? I really think catering quality affects the value angle more than a couple of glasses of liquor.

Some of the issues - like grooming - I don't know what statement that makes. It strikes me simply as brand management, though it seems as though the general consensus is that something more sinister is afoot. Similarly, the alcohol ban on domestic and Islamic country flights doesn't strike me as anything too untoward though that can, more reasonably, be attributed to religion. Now if they roll that put system wide, that's a bigger issue, but AFAIK, they haven't.

I don't think the management is going to become more religious overnight, and TK's value to politicians is based on its commercial success. It's frustrating watching these changes coming, but I doubt they're going to lead to anything more than superficial changes.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting lightsaber (Reply 36):

There is alcohol in Y on European flights. Just domestic Y, which NEVER had alcohol. It is domestic C that got cut off recently.
 
TK105
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 7:46 pm

Quoting leftyboarder (Reply 42):

If I'm not mistaken, for domestic Y, TK used to serve wine and beer, as well as distribute newspapers back in 90s. However after the economical issues following 9/11, TK went in to a big cost cutting plan and such luxury for domestic Y passengers ended.
 
leftyboarder
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RE: TK And Islam

Wed May 15, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting TK105 (Reply 43):

You are right, I stand corrected on that. But by no means, this is a recent cut, nor is it unique in aviation world.
 
incitatus
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RE: TK And Islam

Thu May 16, 2013 2:12 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 15):
and them scrambling to fly everywhere possible is what?

Considering some of the peanut-sized fares TK offers, their huge list of destinations is a vanity project.
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ElPistolero
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RE: TK And Islam

Thu May 16, 2013 2:37 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 45):

Considering some of the peanut-sized fares TK offers, their huge list of destinations is a vanity project.

They don't seem to be doing too badly financially. A profitable vanity project?
 
777way
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RE: TK And Islam

Thu May 16, 2013 3:28 am

Quoting incitatus (Reply 45):

Thats irrelevant, you said "Lost among TK's priorities is flying people where they need to go." the point is they are doing just that, flying people where they want to go, and more.

[Edited 2013-05-15 20:33:35]
 
PanHAM
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RE: TK And Islam

Thu May 16, 2013 5:11 am

Quoting 777way (Reply 47):
flying people where they want to go, and more.

what does "and more" mean? Flying people where they don't want to g?

Fact is, TK is an ambitious government project which is more than needed infrastructure for the Turkish economy.

The company embarked on an ambitious expansion project which has yet to prove that it is sustainable. The recent controversary in the TK management / supervisory board is not a good sign. As is using a commercial company that needs to attract customers from all over the world to promote religious doctrines. Even when these are yet modest.
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777way
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RE: TK And Islam

Thu May 16, 2013 6:36 am

Poster said something factually incorrect and got defensive when appropriately answered, bringing in unrelated things to justify what he said are you're doing the same, TK fly people almost everywhere that matters and they want or need to go tp and more places even if they don't need to go there but they are flying to those as well, wether they are selling for peanuts and its a vanity fair is irrelevant.

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