JoePatroni707
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My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 5:53 pm

Well under most conditions this would be a happy event. However, I cannot be more disappointed in my niece for her decision, and the father of her baby?? Well I better never run into him in this life or any other.

My niece just turned 19, which IMHO is way to young to have a baby from a maturity standpoint. The next part is what has my blood boiling.

The father of her baby is 46 years old. He is the father of the family that she has been babysitting for the past couple of years.

My niece thinks he will leave his wife and family and they will live happily ever after. Fat chance.

I am so mad at this guy for taking advantage of my niece words cannot even describe my rage...
 
RussianJet
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:02 pm

Oh dear, that really is a difficult one to deal with. Given his familial situation and his superior age, I can fully understand why you feel she's been taken advantage of.

I guess the only advice I can give you is to try and put the rage aside and support her as best you can.
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Pe@rson
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:06 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece thinks he will leave his wife and family and they will live happily ever after. Fat chance

I agree, but it is her life - and there isn't an awful lot you can do about it. And while the outcome seems somewhat inevitable, perhaps it will help her in the longer-run.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 1):
Oh dear, that really is a difficult one to deal with. Given his familial situation and his superior age, I can fully understand why you feel she's been taken advantage of.

I agree.

[Edited 2013-05-18 11:07:07]
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Kiwirob
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:18 pm

I wonder why this is your problem, you are not her parent, you're just a relative whose opinion doesn't matter. She on the other hand is a 19 year old who fell for an older bloke, happens all the time, the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........

At 19 she's old enough to know what she was getting herself into.
 
JoePatroni707
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
I wonder why this is your problem, you are not her parent, you're just a relative whose opinion doesn't matter.

We are very close, always have been.
 
RussianJet
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
I wonder why this is your problem, you are not her parent, you're just a relative whose opinion doesn't matter.

That's a bit harsh. I can totally understand why he cares. I love my nephews and nieces very much, and would be gutted if anything bad happened to them.
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L0VE2FLY
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:30 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece thinks he will leave his wife and family and they will live happily ever after. Fat chance.

Of course he'll leave his wife for your 19 years old niece, and 20 years from now he'll leave your niece for another 19 years old! Just another sleazebag.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
I love my nephews and nieces very much, and would be gutted if anything bad happened to them.

Getting pregnant isn't bad, she's not dead, she wasn't in an accident, she got knocked up, she probably had fun doing it too.
 
RussianJet
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:43 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 7):
Getting pregnant isn't bad, she's not dead, she wasn't in an accident, she got knocked up, she probably had fun doing it too.

Worse things happen of course, but how big a deal it is just depends on lots of things, doesn't it? Perhaps she had a bright educational future, for example, which has just been made ten times less likely to happen - we don't know. There are many potential variables.
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Kiwirob
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:50 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 8):
Perhaps she had a bright educational future, for example, which has just been made ten times less likely to happen - we don't know.

She can always sort it out, she doesn't have to have the baby if she doesn't want to, it's her choice.
 
RussianJet
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 6:56 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 9):
She can always sort it out, she doesn't have to have the baby if she doesn't want to, it's her choice.

Obviously. But that's not necessarily great either. I guess the only point is that yes, it might not be the worst thing ever, but it's also quite understandable why it might be a big deal too.
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 7:13 pm

As a physician who works with this age group, I have to have my face in my hands. Every 19-year-old woman should be on birth control. Every. Last. One.

She has to have seen a physician in the last year or so; why didn't any of them make sure she was on something?

I'm sorry you and she and her family are going through this. Unintended pregnancy sucks... and it's so preventable.  
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Kiwirob
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:00 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):

Obviously. But that's not necessarily great either.

Unless you have experience how do you know?
 
NoUFO
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece just turned 19
Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
The father of her baby is 46 years old

Wow, I am only 45! Does that mean there's a real change for to sleep with another 18 or 19-year-old? Sunbed here I come.
No, honestly, that's an awful situation.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 11):
Unintended pregnancy sucks... and it's so preventable.

Well, I could name a couple of people who became parents while using some sort of contraception, and I don't mean some esoteric stuff. None of them were 19, though.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:20 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........

Uhhh. Abortion is an option, yes, but hardly the only option if she feels she cannot handle this at her point in her life.

Last thing the world needs is someone like you to pontificate how abortion is the only real option for someone 'smart' or intelligent.

Are you smart too? Are you usually one to correlate intellect with a callous indifference for human dignity? Wow, Mr. Smarty-pants indeed.

Well thank goodness for all the stupid, uneducated neanderthals who have continued to bring life into this world under unideal circumstances...

Abortion is not the only option, and is often knee jerk and short sighted, she should look into all the alternatives.

[Edited 2013-05-18 13:21:42]

[Edited 2013-05-18 13:25:22]
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RussianJet
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
Unless you have experience how do you know?

Are you suggesting that an abortion can ever be a desirable thing?? Sure it might sometimes be the least worst option, but that's not the same thing. I think the vast majority of people, regardless of whether they're in favour of abortions being legal, would consider it something best avoided.
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Aesma
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:34 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion

I'd say they don't get pregnant. My little sister was on the pill as soon as boys were around.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 14):
Uhhh. Abortion is an option, yes, but hardly the only option if she feels she cannot handle this at her point in her life.

Last thing the world needs is someone like you to pontificate how abortion is the only real option for someone 'smart' or intelligence.

Are you smart too? Are you usually one to correlate intellect with a callous indifference for human dignity? Wow, Mr. Smarty-pants indeed.

Well thank goodness for all the stupid, uneducated neanderthals who have continued to bring life into this world under unideal circumstances...

Abortion is not the only option, and is often knee jerk and short sighted, she should look into all the alternatives.

Do you have numbers to back that up ? Juno is a nice movie but I doubt it happens much in practice, not after 9 months in the womb.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):

Do you have numbers to back that up ? Juno is a nice movie but I doubt it happens much in practice, not after 9 months in the womb.

I don't have the 'numbers' you crave, but I do have my heartbeat. It's relative commonplace and happens all the time.
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EA CO AS
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 10):
Obviously. But that's not necessarily great either.
Unless you have experience how do you know?

kiwirob, you really oughta quit while you're behind.

Seriously.
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Kiwirob
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 14):

Abortion is not the only option, and is often knee jerk and short sighted, she should look into all the alternatives.

At 19 it's often the best option.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
Are you suggesting that an abortion can ever be a desirable thing??

Yes I am. There are a lot of women who should have had an abortion, didn't and regretted it for the rest of their lives. I've went through the process with a previous partner, we were in our early 20's, not the right time of our lives to have children, I would have supported her in whatever decision she wanted to make, she chose abortion, I supported her choice. We've both since had 3 kids each, neither of us has a problem with what happened and both agree in hindsight the decision we made was the best one for both of us, our lives would be completely different today had we had the child.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):

I'd say they don't get pregnant. My little sister was on the pill as soon as boys were around.

Smart parents, my wife and I have already talked about what we will do with our daughter when she starts getting interested in boys, getting her on the pill is the obvious and sensible answer, I don't believe in abstinence, that's complete bs IMO, teenagers shag like rabbits, I did, I'm pretty sure my kids will too, after all we do live in Norway.
 
RussianJet
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:52 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
At 19 it's often the best option.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
Yes I am. There are a lot of women who should have had an abortion, didn't and regretted it for the rest of their lives. I've went through the process with a previous partner, we were in our early 20's, not the right time of our lives to have children, I would have supported her in whatever decision she wanted to make, she chose abortion, I supported her choice. We've both since had 3 kids each, neither of us has a problem with what happened and both agree in hindsight the decision we made was the best one for both of us, our lives would be completely different today had we had the child.

I pretty much said that I understood there were situations where it's the best option in an undesirable situation, but the point is that the fact you have to even come to make that choice is a bad thing and surely best avoided in the first place! It's never an outright positive thing. Sure it can be the lesser of two evils.
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jpetekyxmd80
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:54 pm

Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 8:55 pm

My girlfriend´s sister got knocked up unintentionally while still in college and lost contact with the father. While her family in the Philippines was at first a bit upset, they soon adapted to the situation. Her now 6 year old daughter is the darling of the family and is a really smart girl (in elementary school they advanced her a year because she was bored in school. She taught herself how to read when she was only 4 years old). And the mother finished college as well because her whole family supported her and took over duties as babysitters when requried.
We are joking that the girl has 4 daddies and about half a dozen mothers (my girlfriend´s brothers, the husband of her older sister, my girlfriend´s other sisters and some cousins).

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Polot
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 9:12 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
She on the other hand is a 19 year old who fell for an older bloke, happens all the time, the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........

No, the smart ones don't get pregnant in the first place and get on with their lives and the rest...
 
Kiwirob
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 9:21 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 20):
the fact you have to even come to make that choice is a bad thing

I don't see it as a bad thing, it's just something that happened.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):
Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.

I gather you're a religious right wing anti abortion type.

Quoting Polot (Reply 23):

No, the smart ones don't get pregnant in the first place and get on with their lives and the rest...

Some smart ones also get knocked up, my ex is now a judge.
 
NoUFO
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 9:56 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
There are a lot of women who should have had an abortion, didn't and regretted it for the rest of their lives.

And there are others who did have an abortion and later needed a psychotherapist.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
neither of us has a problem with what happened

Good for you and your wife, but is this really the norm?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
My little sister was on the pill as soon as boys were around.

The pill iss not just some collection of vitamins girls can throw in and everything is fine. Young women have died due to the pill, others suffer from serious side-effects, there have been law suits and all that. What I see here is a group of men saying "women should take the pill", "women should terminate pregnancy". And what's left to you guys? All the fun?
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Kiwirob
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 10:10 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):

Good for you and your wife, but is this really the norm?

Not wife, ex girlfriend. Who is to say it isn't the norm, you don't know, neither do I, but I suspect far more women don't have an issue with it than do.
 
NoUFO
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 10:16 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 26):
Who is to say it isn't the norm, you don't know, neither do I, but I suspect far more women don't have an issue with it than do.

So?
A 2011 study funded by the U.S. Department of Health found that the incidence of mental health problems in women who have an unwanted pregnancy was the same whether they had an abortion or not.
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Aesma
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 10:27 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
The pill iss not just some collection of vitamins girls can throw in and everything is fine. Young women have died due to the pill, others suffer from serious side-effects, there have been law suits and all that. What I see here is a group of men saying "women should take the pill", "women should terminate pregnancy". And what's left to you guys? All the fun?

A pregnancy is far more dangerous than the pill.
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JoePatroni707
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 10:36 pm

The biggest thorn in my side is the age difference. She is over 18, but a 27 year age gap?? Thats what really pisses me off and thats why this relationship is doomed. Sure the father, 46, makes decent money and will likely have a pretty good chunk of his paycheck going to child support for the next 18 years at least.

Now look at the other side of the equation, the father is a home owner, wife, and kids. If he does not get kicked out it will be an ugly situation on his side as well..
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 10:44 pm

The smartest decision this girl can make is to do what's best for her while eliminating the idea from her mind that she will live happily ever after with the father.

I've seen too many close friends get knocked up and choose to keep the child because the DOUCHEBAG fathers led them to believe they will be together forever, only to have the guys bail either at the end of the pregnancy or right after the birth of the child.

That shit fucking pisses me off.
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flyguy89
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 11:32 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest...........

Wow, according to you, my mother is an idiot and if she was smart, she should have aborted me. Nice. I don't believe in banning abortion, but to call it the only "smart" choice is beyond the pale.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):
Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.

I gather you're a religious right wing anti abortion type.

You don't have to be a "religious right wing anti abortion type" to see an inherent moral contradiction in being able to look your current children in the eyes while acknowledging that if they had come along 10 years earlier, you would have aborted them.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
There are a lot of women who should have had an abortion, didn't and regretted it for the rest of their lives.

And there are others who did have an abortion and later needed a psychotherapist.

And to add to that, there are others who did have their children and went on to live completely happy and fulfilling lives.

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):

A rotten situation indeed, but echoing RussianJet, put aside your frustration as best you can and let your niece know that you support her, depending on the situation, it doesn't have to be a terrible thing. My mom was 19 when she had me, she was wholly unprepared and immature at the time and had previously been pretty much a wild party-girl, but she was lucky enough to have a good family support system. With family support, my mother ended up adjusting extremely well and my mom and family often remark to me that I was the best thing that ever could have happened to her. So try to keep positive and offer her your support, and I truly hope things work out for her.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
inherent moral contradiction

What inherent moral contradiction? Morality is not objective, and things are judged, individually, based on our own standard of morality. You can't have an inherent anything when regarding the idea of morality.
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Aaron747
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 11:51 pm

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):

Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.

What is vile about it when it can be true given the right context? It is equally pretentious to respond to a scenario like this with the attitude that only one point of view is correct.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
You don't have to be a "religious right wing anti abortion type" to see an inherent moral contradiction in being able to look your current children in the eyes while acknowledging that if they had come along 10 years earlier, you would have aborted them.

Only a sick person would do that. Life happens, and people move on and learn from their mistakes. It happens everywhere.
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flyguy89
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 11:52 pm

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 32):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
inherent moral contradiction

What inherent moral contradiction? Morality is not objective, and things are judged, individually, based on our own standard of morality. You can't have an inherent anything when regarding the idea of morality.

Yeah, if you take a relativists approach to morality. Is murder or stealing not immoral to you? Because, after all, to the thief, he's not doing anything immoral, he's just acquiring something that he wants at the expense of others. Or the psychopathic killer, he isn't committing an immoral act by murdering someone else according to you. His own individual standard of morality dictates that he can take the lives of others so therefore he isn't doing anything immoral, right?

See the insanity your line of thinking devolves to?

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 33):
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):

Saying 'the smart ones get an abortion' is an incredibly vile, pretentious, and ignorant thing to say.

What is vile about it when it can be true given the right context? It is equally pretentious to respond to a scenario like this with the attitude that only one point of view is correct.

Because he stated so categorically and hasn't clarified or elaborated given numerous opportunities here, categorically stating that 'the smart ones get an abortion' is ridiculous.

[Edited 2013-05-18 16:57:10]
 
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Polot
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sat May 18, 2013 11:53 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
Some smart ones also get knocked up, my ex is now a judge.

And I am sure you can find plenty of smart and successful people who got knocked up and decided to keep the baby. That doesn't mean the smartest choice is to not get knocked up in the first place...pregnancy isn't really something you should take lightly and just think "whatever, an abortion will take care of it."
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 12:22 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 34):
Yeah, if you take a relativists approach to morality. Is murder or stealing not immoral to you? Because, after all, to the thief, he's not doing anything immoral, he's just acquiring something that he wants at the expense of others. Or the psychopathic killer, he isn't committing an immoral act by murdering someone else according to you. His own individual standard of morality dictates that he can take the lives of others so therefore he isn't doing anything immoral, right?

See the insanity your line of thinking devolves to?

Inmoral to me? Yes, killing/stealing/raping is inmoral to me. What I'm saying it that you can't claim inherent moral contradictions for anything as we don't have the same standards of morality. There are ground rules, per se, and those are commonly agreed to by the greater people in society. Right and wrong do have concrete bases, but the higher idea of morality--at least on the edges, if you will--is malleable.

Take, for example, the issue of abortion; many would say that it is inmoral--tantamount to murder and whatnot--while others would say that it is perfectly morally permissible.

It's not a relativist approach; I'm merely pointing out that you can't assert moral antinomy as there is nothing to base such a claim on.
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flyguy89
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 12:42 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 36):
Right and wrong do have concrete bases, but the higher idea of morality--at least on the edges, if you will--is malleable.

What is the difference between "Right and wrong" and morality? None.

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 36):
Take, for example, the issue of abortion; many would say that it is inmoral--tantamount to murder and whatnot--while others would say that it is perfectly morally permissible.

That's fine if you're simply limiting the parameters as to whether or not you believe abortion is moral. But there is indeed an inherent contradiction if you have children, tell them you love them all the time and that you wouldn't want any harm to come to them, but at the same time knowing that if they had come along X years earlier, you would have aborted them.


Quoting aaron747 (Reply 33):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
You don't have to be a "religious right wing anti abortion type" to see an inherent moral contradiction in being able to look your current children in the eyes while acknowledging that if they had come along 10 years earlier, you would have aborted them.

Only a sick person would do that. Life happens, and people move on and learn from their mistakes. It happens everywhere.

I agree that life happens, that one makes mistakes and regrettable decisions. But, as you say, for the person not to be "sick", they have to acknowledge them as mistakes and regrets.
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 12:59 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):

What is the difference between "Right and wrong" and morality? None.

Society's right and wrong is expressed through law. Morality is a personal parameter of right and wrong. They are not the same thing.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):
But there is indeed an inherent contradiction if you have children, tell them you love them all the time and that you wouldn't want any harm to come to them, but at the same time knowing that if they had come along X years earlier, you would have aborted them.

It may be a contradiction, but not a moral one.
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Aaron747
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 1:03 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):
But, as you say, for the person not to be "sick", they have to acknowledge them as mistakes and regrets.

No I'm saying it would be sick to have such a twisted perspective on one's own past that they would look in their children's eyes and do what was described.
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WestJet747
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 1:10 am

Quoting JoePatroni707 (Thread starter):
My niece just turned 19, which IMHO is way to young to have a baby from a maturity standpoint. The next part is what has my blood boiling.

The father of her baby is 46 years old. He is the father of the family that she has been babysitting for the past couple of years.

The age aspect doesn't bother me so much, but the fact that this man has a family that he is likely to leave behind for a 19-year old is despicable. I don't know your niece, but I'm sure she deserves better. It's a shame that it appears she is blind to the very real probability that he will ditch her (and the child, if she keeps it) sometime down the road.

I can't help but wonder: was this a one-time thing and she was incredibly unlucky, or did they have an ongoing relationship behind the scenes?

I agree with RussianJet that, as her uncle, it's really your job to just be there and support her whatever her decision is, and not to engage the creep that got her pregnant.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 14):
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 21):

Kiwirob could have used a wiser choice in words, but you're no better for misquoting him to support your own side of the argument. Nowhere in his post does he say that abortion is the "only" option.

Don't forget that some alternatives are better for some than others. Abortion is absolutely the best alternative for some people, while adoption is best for some others, and keeping the child is the best for the rest. Kiwirob clearly holds the opinion that abortion is the best for a young, possible immature girl who is in a toxic relationship, and you should at least give him the courtesy of rebutting the argument with some decorum rather than flying off the handle like that.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 3):
the smart ones get an abortion

I'd say they don't get pregnant.

  

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 25):
And what's left to you guys? All the fun?

Aren't they creating a pill that men can take that works similar to the one females currently use? If so, I would absolutely consider going on it. I'm willing to do my part  
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
I don't believe in banning abortion, but to call it the only "smart" choice is beyond the pale.

Again, he never said it was the "only smart choice".

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 34):
Yeah, if you take a relativists approach to morality. Is murder or stealing not immoral to you? Because, after all, to the thief, he's not doing anything immoral, he's just acquiring something that he wants at the expense of others. Or the psychopathic killer, he isn't committing an immoral act by murdering someone else according to you. His own individual standard of morality dictates that he can take the lives of others so therefore he isn't doing anything immoral, right?

A commonplace acceptance of a defined set of morals doesn't make it absolute. Every facet of morality is entirely subjective. There also has to be a degree of relativism when you view any ethical issue. Moral imperialism only leads to closed-mindedness.
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vikkyvik
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 1:11 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):
That's fine if you're simply limiting the parameters as to whether or not you believe abortion is moral. But there is indeed an inherent contradiction if you have children, tell them you love them all the time and that you wouldn't want any harm to come to them, but at the same time knowing that if they had come along X years earlier, you would have aborted them.

Where's the contradiction? If they had come along 10 years earlier, the entire situation is different. You can't use the fact that you love them 10+ years later to say there's a contradiction there.

Especially if you weren't ready, mentally or financially, to care for them, you might have just ended up greatly resenting them 10 years earlier.
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 1:18 am

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 38):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 37):

What is the difference between "Right and wrong" and morality? None.

Society's right and wrong is expressed through law.

...and what guides the creation of such laws?
 
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 1:43 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 40):
Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 31):
I don't believe in banning abortion, but to call it the only "smart" choice is beyond the pale.

Again, he never said it was the "only smart choice".

"...the smart ones get an abortion and get on with their lives and the rest..." not a whole lot to leave up to the imagination.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 40):
A commonplace acceptance of a defined set of morals doesn't make it absolute. Every facet of morality is entirely subjective. There also has to be a degree of relativism when you view any ethical issue. Moral imperialism only leads to closed-mindedness.

A degree of relativism being the key word, society can't exist in an environment of pure subjectivism. In any case, no matter which way you look at it (subjectively or absolutely), if you have children and proclaim to love them, it obviously means you value the life of your offspring (I would hope), so at the same time acknowledging that you would abort them if they had come at an earlier "less opportune" point in your life, it's at the very least a personal moral contradiction.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 41):
If they had come along 10 years earlier, the entire situation is different.

So if the situation changes for the worse in the future, does it suddenly make it ok to kill your children?

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 41):
You can't use the fact that you love them 10+ years later to say there's a contradiction there.

It's your child, no matter when they're born (or were supposed to be born), you love them. There's a very obvious contradiction there, at least to me and many others.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 41):
Especially if you weren't ready, mentally or financially, to care for them, you might have just ended up greatly resenting them 10 years earlier.


Resentment to the point of killing myself or wishing myself out of existence? No, at the very least I would value the chance at a life and, no matter how my life actually did turn out, I would still prefer that over death.
 
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 2:15 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
A degree of relativism being the key word, society can't exist in an environment of pure subjectivism.

Right. I don't think anybody here is arguing in favour of pure subjectivism though. The way I interpreted your arguments was that you were saying there is no room for any relativism whatsoever. My apologies if I misunderstood.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 43):
In any case, no matter which way you look at it (subjectively or absolutely), if you have children and proclaim to love them, it obviously means you value the life of your offspring (I would hope), so at the same time acknowledging that you would abort them if they had come at an earlier "less opportune" point in your life, it's at the very least a personal moral contradiction.

I still fail to see the contradiction. Saying that you would have aborted the child had it happened 10 years ago during a very inopportune time is brutally honest, not contradictory, as having kids in the present wasn't at all inopportune. To me it sounds more like you're making the argument that abortion is just flat-out immoral (which is your right to do so if you believe that).
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Aesma
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 2:41 am

Abortion is not killing to me. I'm not talking about late term abortion, that only the US and developing countries even allow outside of medical reasons. I'm talking about most abortions, made during the first trimester, aborting a pack of cells. Sure it could have become a child, just like every spermatozoon and ovule can become a child. But it doesn't, and that's it.

As for reasoning in hypotheses, well, what's the point ? Ten years ago I used a condom with my girlfriend. Imagine I didn't, I could have a 9 years old child ! Let's ban condoms.
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flyguy89
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 4:07 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 44):
I still fail to see the contradiction. Saying that you would have aborted the child had it happened 10 years ago during a very inopportune time is brutally honest, not contradictory

Yeah fair enough, I can see how it's not necessarily a contradiction per se, but I can't really understand how that's a healthy perspective to have on life or children. Can't imagine how a child would feel if their parents were, as you described, brutally honest with them in such a way.

I just want to make clear as well that I'm not passing judgement on kiwirob. I don't know what his exact situation was or exactly what all of his feelings are regarding the subject so I obviously am in no place to pass judgement. My opinions were directed more towards such a situation in general.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 44):
To me it sounds more like you're making the argument that abortion is just flat-out immoral (which is your right to do so if you believe that).

I don't want to derail the topic into such a debate, but yes, while I don't believe the government should be involved at all in such decisions (late-term abortions being the exception), I personally view abortion as immoral. It is an intriguing dynamic, but most of the "pro-choice" people I've come across describe themselves as personally opposed to abortion.
 
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 4:16 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
It is an intriguing dynamic, but most of the "pro-choice" people I've come across describe themselves as personally opposed to abortion.

I would place myself in this category as well. I would not make the choice myself, but I am hardly in a position to make that decision for others, much less judge what they decide is best for themselves.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
I don't know what his exact situation was or exactly what all of his feelings are regarding the subject so I obviously am in no place to pass judgement.

It sounds like you are in a similar frame of mind, after all.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Can't imagine how a child would feel if their parents were, as you described, brutally honest with them in such a way.

In healthy communication, 100% openness is usually both undesirable and unnecessary. On balance, it's hard to imagine why it should even come up unless one needs to have a serious discussion on the matter with a teenage child in a risky personal situation.
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Braniff747SP
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 4:58 am

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 42):

...and what guides the creation of such laws?

Most certainly not morality.

Quoting flyguy89 (Reply 46):
Yeah fair enough, I can see how it's not necessarily a contradiction per se, but I can't really understand how that's a healthy perspective to have on life or children.

Agreed.
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RE: My Niece Is Pregnant...

Sun May 19, 2013 7:11 am

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 40):
Kiwirob clearly holds the opinion that abortion is the best for a young, possible immature girl who is in a toxic relationship

Right on the button.

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