Baexecutive
Posts: 594
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sat May 18, 2013 11:31 pm

National Health Saver

What an institution, if ever I was proud to be British it would be now.....we have a universal healthcare, regardless how rich or poor you are, you are human....and will be treated as such....my highest respect goes out to the British NHS....alight in a dark world.
 
rwy04lga
Posts: 1976
Joined: Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:21 am

My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 6:42 am

Land in a dark place?   How does this compare to the Canadian system?
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 9:48 am

If it was so good, why does the government threaten us with prison time if we refuse to pay for it?

I think it's a hideous institution. Something so monolithic cannot be efficient. The amount you pay is determined by how productive you are and not how well you look after your health. The level of service you get is determined by bureaucrats and not by how much you've contributed to society. Plus there's little incentive to bring costs down or improve service.

It creates a set of incentives which mirrors the appalling set of incentives that have destroyed this country.
 
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OA260
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 10:00 am

The NHS is the best part of living in the UK. Healthcare for all and especially for people that have no money. Sure it has its problems but with such a huge organisation its expected. I'm sure there could be more positive changes to cut out money wasting but its one of the few British institutions still worth keeping.

People often give out about having to pay into it but they are usually the ones who have money to pay for private health care and don't give a damn about their fellow citizens. That's just selfish and arrogant on their part.

Living abroad I know what its like not to have a NHS and the costs involved should you get sick. Ireland is one place that if you get sick just to get into the Dr its around EUR50 and thats without your medication . Getting the flu can often set you back EUR130.

I hope the NHS is always there.   
 
romeobravo
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 10:06 am

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
That's just selfish and arrogant on their part.

What's more selfish, earning money yourself to pay for something, or stealing it from someone else to pay for it?

You know I don't think it's the latter.
 
GDB
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 10:16 am

Like all health-care systems, it has it's flaws, strengths, weaknesses, if it was being started today it would be done differently. But it was set up in 1948, when an elected government, with one of the most solid mandates in British electoral history (in both seats in the Commons and share of the vote), did what they said they would do.
Don't see much of that now do we?

They did so after surmounting fierce opposition from the medical establishment (or at least those who ran it, being for the proposed system did not make doctors popular with the upper management). However, while concessions were made for consultants and their private practice, what really tipped the scales were the results of polling that showed just how popular the idea of the system was with the public and therefore also showing just how much the scare tactics by the medical establishment had fallen on deaf ears.
Listen to the people and not vested interest and lobby groups? Yes, it really did happen!

Prime Minister Attlee knew how to run a Cabinet and knew how to delegate. He let Health Secretary Nye Bevan get on with the job. Yes, PM's did used to do that!
Bevan, a MP for a poor Welsh mining community, had before the war, set up local co-operatives in his constituency to provide basic health care, funded via members of the community paying in a levy to provide for them and their families when the need arose.
This he extended into the National Insurance system for the NHS.

All this in run down, war damaged, worn out, financially stricken Britain.
Still, the original ideas for the NHS and more besides, had come from the Wartime report from Liberal Peer Lord Beveridge, his report on post war measures to end the appalling poverty, lack of health care, housing and other social ills that so blighted inter war Britain, was a best seller when published mid way through the war when victory was still not assured.
It was a sort of contract with the people, keep fighting, keep toiling, endure the wartime privations, in return there would not be a return to the conditions endured after WW1 had ended and which were still a bitter memory for many.

My parents as children had known what it is to have family members suffer health problems but not have to money to even see a doctor.
There were millions like them.

Ironically, it was the implementation of very minor charges for some services, like glasses and dentures, brought in to fund the rearmament for the UK contribution to the Korean War in 1950 and other defence commitments, that caused a fissure in the now exhausted government (most had been in senior positions in the wartime Coalition since 1940 too), which led to their defeat in 1951. Though they still got more votes just less seats in Parliament.

I point this out since inevitably this thread will attract comments, mostly from across the pond, about 'socialists, commies' etc. Yeah, what a red government Attlee's was.
Let's see, second largest commitment after the US to Korea, same with the Berlin Airlift, a leading light in the formation of NATO, was fighting Soviet influence across the globe for the first couple of post war year while the US de-mobilised, leading to the only time conscription was re-introduced outside of a world war in 1947, (the Marshall Plan came out of warnings that the UK government could not afford all of these commitments and much of Europe still might fall under Stalin's influence yet).
This government also started the UK nuclear bomb program after the US ended agreements on Atomic technology and threw the sizable UK scientific contribution to the Manhattan Project out of the country.

Worth noting that while recently we heard much about how Thatcher changed to political weather, made changes that the opposition had to in broad terms accept, the same was even more true in 1951. The Tories had not only to accept the NHS which they had opposed, (a reason Churchill lost in 1945, despite the huge affection for him was his opposition to the idea of a NHS), as my Dad said of him 'he was a great war leader but bloody useless in peacetime', they also had to commit to maintaining and improving it, if they wanted to get re-elected.
Pragmatism and reality over dogma, I bet the current Tory PM wishes he could, on for example Europe, have that same power over his fractious party now.

Do changes, evolution, have to be a part of running the NHS now? Of course, despite some saying otherwise, this has been the case for it's whole history. Do I trust the current government with it? Not entirely.
However, the one PM who would have deep down liked to have ended it, despite what was said in public, was Thatcher but even at the height of her powers she knew she could not and still stay in power for long.

Because that's the reality of it, the idea of a health system free at the point of use, funded from taxation and national insurance, is as uncontroversial in the UK as say votes for women.

My own experience with it, especially since being diagnosed in 2000 with a serious condition, has been very positive.
I only have to worry about looking after myself, taking the medical advice, not if I can afford the range of medication that keeps me relatively healthy, which means I have always kept on working and therefore paying my tax and National Insurance which funds the NHS.
I believe that is called a virtuous circle!
 
GDB
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 10:35 am

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 4):
What's more selfish, earning money yourself to pay for something, or stealing it from someone else to pay for it?
Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 4):
What's more selfish, earning money yourself to pay for something, or stealing it from someone else to pay for it?

You know I don't think it's the latter.

Then stand for political office, UKIP will have you, (just wait until their policies really come under scrutiny).
I read an interview with one of them, a swivel eyed loony of a farmer who said almost exactly what you keep banging on about though he was a bit stuck when asked abut health care provision. (Who would also have been happily taking those various EU subsidies that help keep him in business. Mr Farage himself loves his EU Parliament expenses and several of their MEP's have been done for benefit fraud, one went to jail for defrauding the British social security system).

The society to seem to desire, does exist in places, Somalia for example. Off you trot there then, see how long you last. If not, why not? Live by your strong convictions. I dare you.
You might want to consider the notion that 'taxation is the price we pay for a civilised society'.

If you are ever unlucky enough to need that institution you call 'hideous', a medical emergency that the private sector cannot and will not provide (that is anything serious and/or sudden), you will I take it refuse it, if you are able to?
Even a very wealthy person which private provision of the best kind, will need the NHS if in a bad car crash, or a sudden event like a stroke, or heart attack.

Your profile shows you as still a young person, you might feel it now, but you are not immortal or superman.
You'll need the NHS at some time in your life, actually if you've been born and brought up here you already have done so, plenty of times.

[Edited 2013-05-19 03:44:36]
 
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OA260
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Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:50 pm

My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 10:44 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
My own experience with it, especially since being diagnosed in 2000 with a serious condition, has been very positive.
I only have to worry about looking after myself, taking the medical advice, not if I can afford the range of medication that keeps me relatively healthy, which means I have always kept on working and therefore paying my tax and National Insurance which funds the NHS.
I believe that is called a virtuous circle!

Very well said. I would hate to get to a society where people just care about themselves and dont care if others die because they cant afford the medication to survive. Thank god none of those horrible individuals in my circle of colleagues/friends and Family.
 
Aeri28
Posts: 668
Joined: Fri Dec 08, 2000 1:08 pm

My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 10:47 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
I point this out since inevitably this thread will attract comments, mostly from across the pond, about 'socialists, commies' etc. Yeah, what a red government Attlee's was.
Let's see, second largest commitment after the US to Korea, same with the Berlin Airlift, a leading light in the formation of NATO, was fighting Soviet influence across the globe for the first couple of post war year while the US de-mobilised, leading to the only time conscription was re-introduced outside of a world war in 1947, (the Marshall Plan came out of warnings that the UK government could not afford all of these commitments and much of Europe still might fall under Stalin's influence yet).
This government also started the UK nuclear bomb program after the US ended agreements on Atomic technology and threw the sizable UK scientific contribution to the Manhattan Project out of the country.


It looks like you're the one hoping to "attract comments from across the pond" by inciting these topic points as some sort of bait. You made the topic, and listed an entire paragraph on Britains achievements post WWII. I guess I, in reading this thread, am not sure what you are hoping for. A little pre emptive strike when nothing has been thrown out yet?

From what I understand, the NHS is not exactly 'free'. Is the government really that benevolent to provide an entirely free healthcare? I pretty much understood your citizens pay taxes towards it,, not to mention potentially other taxes on good and services (electornics, petrol/gas, imports). Maybe that new Bedroom tax which is causing issues in the UK contributes towards it as well?. As another poster mentioned, not everybody wants to pay into it, but begrudgingly do so for fear of prosecution? I"m certainly not well versed on the topic and love to hear others. I , like many other Americans, am on the fence about a national health care.

I"m guessing there are isses too as I remember a NY times article about 4 years ago on Britains having to pull their ow teeth due to a lack of NHS dental providers. Then I read this article just last week:

"Now we pull out our own teeth: Boom in DIY dental kits as patients cannot afford NHS fees"
THOUSANDS of Britons are carrying out DIY dentistry, pulling their own teeth with pliers and using household glue to stick down fillings.
http://www.express.co.uk/news/health...as-patients-cannot-afford-NHS-fees

Good or bad, true or false, it looks like there are ongoing kinks to work out?
 
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OA260
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 10:57 am

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 8):
As another poster mentioned, not everybody wants to pay into it, but begrudgingly do so for fear of prosecution? I"m certainly not well versed on the topic and love to hear others. I , like many other Americans, am on the fence about a national health care.

Not everyone wants to pay taxes but they have to. You cant pick and choose what you pay for as part of a society otherwise it wouldnt function. Different countries have different systems and having lived in UK USA Greece and Ireland I have found the UK's NHS to be the best.

Of course there will be news reports and horror stories that one can focus on but the everyday life saving operations and people who need medication and cant afford it go un reported. Millions benefit and the NHS is a very diverse institution. My Mother was at risk of loosing her sight a few years back and the treatment she received from the NHS was second to none. Then again she paid in via taxes all her life so we were glad of the system.

There are some issues which I think need to be changed like ''tourism'' patients coming in and using the service. I believe if you are not resident in the UK then you should not be enttiled to anything other than emergency treatment unless there is a reciprocal arrangement as there is with EU states.
 
romeobravo
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 10:59 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
I only have to worry about looking after myself, taking the medical advice, not if I can afford the range of medication that keeps me relatively healthy, which means I have always kept on working and therefore paying my tax and National Insurance which funds the NHS.
I believe that is called a virtuous circle!

So goes the argument but why not just pay for it yourself instead of via NI and Tax. That way you're more encouraged to work harder because you're not getting so penalised and more encouraged to economise on healthcare = a better economy for everyone to enjoy.

Personally i think we should at least be able to opt out of the NHS's elective services and be paid a block of what the average per capita costs would be of you using the NHS. That way at least there would be some kind of choice to compare to. And over time everyone might choose to opt out and the NHS would disappear. Or maybe everyone would choose to keep it, who knows.

I find it very frustrating after already paying healthcare for about 5 people via tax contributions i then have to pay again if i want better healthcare. My local doctor hardly ever answers the phone. The staff are completely rude and they rarely have convenient slots for me so i end up having to take a half day if which just wastes a load more money.

The great problem with the healthcare debate is that the only country with supposedly private healthcare has made such a hash of it through various government distortions it's impossible to point to an example of how it could work better.

Of course we can't really afford the NHS any more anyway at least nowhere near the same extent, but as you point out, it's a religion over here and no political party can even touch it. And such it is basically going to finish us off.
 
AA7295
Posts: 457
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 11:02 am

When deciding about whether health care should be free or not, I always go back to when I was 19. I was drunk, slipped and broke my leg. Completely my fault. The Australian version of NHS, Medicare, covered it entirely; from emergency room fees, to surgery to physiotherapy. I didn't have private health insurance (neither did my parents) and if I had to pay for it myself, I probably would have had to go bankrupt. It would have cost between $5,000 to $10,000 without Medicare. (Side note... the same work would have costed between $35,000 and $50,000 in America, so the doctors said).

Before that injury, I used to always complain about paying the $500 a year out of my tax to pay for Medicare. Since it, I have absolutely no problem paying it. Why? Because no one should have to go bankrupt and/or not get medical treatment because of lack of financial ability.

I always think of a person with no insurance in America who is completely healthy, going about their day, driving along the road while it's raining and BOOM, they run their car into a tree. Not only have they lost their car, but they also have to pay the exhorbant medical fees. My heart goes out to the stories like this everyday.

I find it incomprehensible that certain countries don't have universal health care for their citizens. (Note: the keyword is citizens.... maybe something America needs to look at while structuring their health. In Australia... no proof of citizenship, credit card payment first please!)
 
romeobravo
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 11:19 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 6):
Then stand for political office, UKIP will have you, (just wait until their policies really come under scrutiny).

No thanks. I'm not a big fan of UKIP though they are probably the best of a sorry bunch but not by much - they've got some pretty hideous policies of their own.

Quoting GDB (Reply 6):
The society to seem to desire, does exist in places, Somalia for example. Off you trot there then, see how long you last. If not, why not? Live by your strong convictions. I dare you.
You might want to consider the notion that 'taxation is the price we pay for a civilised society'.

The society i desire is a better society for everyone which means a drastically smaller government, I likely just have a different idea on how to achieve a civilised society. (i'm not an anarchist btw, Geolibertarian if you must know, i mean i've studied the "Anarcho-capitalist" line of thought but i've concluded it would just result in a - possibly more tyrannous - government anyway)

Can you look at the state of the UK's finances and tell us our government has served us well? This country's economy is a complete basket case and we're going to embark on a very steady downward trend in our standard of living over the next 5 to 10 years - rather like what happened to Argentina.

I think the point still stands though. You can't call rich people selfish whilst the entire leftist position is based upon on theft anyway. Discuss the potential outcomes by all means but don't call it something it isn't.

[Edited 2013-05-19 04:36:22]
 
RussianJet
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 11:19 am

I am extremely proud of the fact that I help pay for access to healthcare for everyone in the country. I am also impressed with the way they have saved the lives of both myself, and of people I know and love. I agree with the OP that it's one of the best things we have in this country, and something we do right to be proud of.

All the "let them eat cake" types can just take their selfish, greedy ways elsewhere. We should help those less fortunate than ourselves.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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OA260
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 11:51 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 13):
I am extremely proud of the fact that I help pay for access to healthcare for everyone in the country. I am also impressed with the way they have saved the lives of both myself, and of people I know and love. I agree with the OP that it's one of the best things we have in this country, and something we do right to be proud of.

Indeed its not until something really goes wrong in your life that you realise how fortunate we are to have the NHS. If someone is that wealthy then they are well fit to contribute to the state system then go private. Its worked for decades and works well.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 13):
All the "let them eat cake" types can just take their selfish, greedy ways elsewhere. We should help those less fortunate than ourselves.

Very well said.
 
mmo
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 12:08 pm

Having lived in both countries, I would like to add my thoughts.

First of all, for the life of me I can not understand how a civilized first world country, US, can not have a minimum healthcare for all it's residents. We can argue over who is entitled and who is not, but the simple fact is if you have a major health issue or accident you could be SOL!! I have friends who worked for UA/US who lost their medical coverage when they were furloughed and they were in a real bad bind. Why should a society as a whole not provide of people in that situation.

While the NHS is not perfect, it does work pretty well. As I get older my joints don't work as they used to. I have had a knuckle replaced by the NHS. I had to wait about 4 month but it was not a long time and certainly very doable. A lot of how the NHS works depends on where you live. Being fortunate to live in the S/SE of the UK, the standard of care is much higher there than it is up north.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 10):
My local doctor hardly ever answers the phone. The staff are completely rude and they rarely have convenient slots for me so i end up having to take a half day if which just wastes a load more money.

How is that a NHS problem??? To me it sounds like you need to move surgeries. Our surgery has a system that if you can not get an appointment during the day, you come in after 4:30pm and you will be seen by a physician. I have used that a couple of times and have only waited maybe 15 minutes. I would certainly not blame NHS but again the local surgery and suggest you talk to the practice manager.

Anyhow, I personally am embarrassed when getting into discussions about health care in America or the lack of it. It is a crime to know there is not a basic level of medical care. My father was a physician and he always said the US should go to a national health care system. In essence it already had one. The two groups that drive health care costs are Medicare and Insurance Companies. A friend of mine who is a retired AA Captain, went into his doctor to have a hearing aid replaced. He was concerned about having to bear the cost and inquired. After some discussion, the price was going to be about $5000. The physician asked about the AA retiree's health care and my friend said he still had it but he was not sure if it would survive bankruptcy proceedings. No problem, order one now at $8000 and the insurance will pay for it at a negotiated price. Why the difference????

Just my thoughts. I know no system is perfect, but I do feel it is a disgrace there is no minimum health care coverage in the US.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane
 
GDB
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 12:56 pm

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 8):
It looks like you're the one hoping to "attract comments from across the pond" by inciting these topic points as some sort of bait. You made the topic, and listed an entire paragraph on Britains achievements post WWII. I guess I, in reading this thread, am not sure what you are hoping for. A little pre emptive strike when nothing has been thrown out yet?
Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 8):
It looks like you're the one hoping to "attract comments from across the pond" by inciting these topic points as some sort of bait. You made the topic, and listed an entire paragraph on Britains achievements post WWII. I guess I, in reading this thread, am not sure what you are hoping for. A little pre emptive strike when nothing has been thrown out yet?

From what I understand, the NHS is not exactly 'free'. Is the government really that benevolent to provide an entirely free healthcare? I pretty much understood your citizens pay taxes towards it,, not to mention potentially other taxes on good and services (electornics, petrol/gas, imports). Maybe that new Bedroom tax which is causing issues in the UK contributes towards it as well?. As another poster mentioned, not everybody wants to pay into it, but begrudgingly do so for fear of prosecution? I"m certainly not well versed on the topic and love to hear others. I , like many other Americans, am on the fence about a national health care.

On the first point, I am merely anticipating what will come and hope to provide some greater context on the government that formed it and the times they lived in.
I've seen Attlee called a 'Communist' on here before, from across the pond.
It's important I think to point this out, since we seen time again - most recently in 2009 in that US health care debate - the most outrageous nonsense spouted about the NHS and other comprehensive systems elsewhere.

On the NHS, it has always been through general taxation and more specifically, a system of National Insurance. This was made clear from the very start, indeed a leaflet circulated to every home in 1948 made it clear it was 'not a charity'.
Nothing to do with whatever the current (Conservative led Coalition) government are doing with other taxes.
 
Aeri28
Posts: 668
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 1:12 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 15):
Having lived in both countries, I would like to add my thoughts.

Why does every topic have to somehow revert to the United States? How did this topic from the OP praising how he feels the NHS has benfitted him turn into an opinion fest on the US? I mean, again. and Again. It's just funny how we're dragged in kicking and screaming. Actually, you all are doing the kicking and screaming, Americans are simply stating and defending how they think things should be run IN OUR OWN COUNTRY . Be it healthcare, or gun control. There is no one America and one consensual opinion. I think the OP knew what he was doing.

I love your sentence: "Having lived in both countries, I would like to add my thoughts." My first thought was "what is the other country and thoughs about what"? . But of course I should have guessed.

If and when things change in the US whether it gun control, abortion,, health care, gay rights, marriage equality and so on, it will be due to the will and actions of its citizens . Many things have in the course of 236 years changed due to actions by the public. I was on some UK board one time and someone said "Let's shame the US into offering healthcare to its citizens." I wanted to say "beyotch, who do you think you are?"

[soapbox alert] anywhoo, I have a flu and am up and down this evening. I just spent a good amount of time discussing on another board filled with Brits on how some british reporter had to have a translator while interviewing "the people of kentucky because he coudn't understand "them" and vice versa". Turns out it was ONE mountain woman who had a strong accent. Of course those obsessed with anything America escalated that thread into how we speak, how we spell, what side of the street we drive on,, jjaywalking, and the spelling of Aluminium vs. Alooooominum. And Don't forget nucler and that important fact that Hershey tastes like vomit and is the only chocolate available in America. Y'all need to stop this America obsession. and I do mean LOL. [/off my soapbox]
 
RussianJet
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Sun May 19, 2013 1:19 pm

Aeri28, it could well be because people are regularly seeing Americans discussing the very same things on an extremely regular basis. Right now in another thread there is just such a debate going on, dominated by posters with US flags. Why are you surprised that others should want to discuss and compare when they read so much about it here?
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
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OA260
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Sun May 19, 2013 1:19 pm

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
Why does every topic have to somehow revert to the United States? How did this topic from the OP praising how he feels the NHS has benfitted him turn into an opinion fest on the US? I mean, again. and Again.

Well because its a prime example of how a lot of British people do not want the British system to become. Its a valid comparison. If the USA wants that system then fine its your country but we don't have to like it and it will be shown to others in the UK what the alternative is or could be. Many including myself don't like that alternative.

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
Be it healthcare, or gun control. There is no one America and one consensual opinion. I think the OP knew what he was doing.

Yes the USA always has opinions on EU affairs. Recently the USA's opinion was that the UK should stay in the EU and it would be weaker outside so its a case of practice what you preach. Don't complain if we have an opinion on your internal affairs also because you have been airing your views on ours for decades. Just saying !
 
GDB
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Sun May 19, 2013 1:31 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 10):
So goes the argument but why not just pay for it yourself instead of via NI and Tax. That way you're more encouraged to work harder because you're not getting so penalised and more encouraged to economise on healthcare = a better economy for everyone to enjoy.

Personally i think we should at least be able to opt out of the NHS's elective services and be paid a block of what the average per capita costs would be of you using the NHS. That way at least there would be some kind of choice to compare to. And over time everyone might choose to opt out and the NHS would disappear. Or maybe everyone would choose to keep it, who knows.

I find it very frustrating after already paying healthcare for about 5 people via tax contributions i then have to pay again if i want better healthcare. My local doctor hardly ever answers the phone. The staff are completely rude and they rarely have convenient slots for me so i end up having to take a half day if which just wastes a load more money.

The great problem with the healthcare debate is that the only country with supposedly private health care has made such a hash of it through various government distortions it's impossible to point to an example of how it could work better.

Of course we can't really afford the NHS any more anyway at least nowhere near the same extent, but as you point out, it's a religion over here and no political party can even touch it. And such it is basically going to finish us off.

Well I cannot speak for your surgery, I've had no problem with mine, then again I don't go there thinking it's part of a 'hideous' institution.

What you are advocating is what was before. If you were born into anything than a pretty prosperous family and you fell sick, then tough shit.
The result was a deeply unhealthy society. Less productive and in 1939, when the call up to war came, so many recruits were unfit and unwell it took an inordinate amount of time to make them healthy.
If you think we have health issues today, it was far far worse before the NHS.
My parents could tell you that.

It's also time to end this myth about efficiency, I'm not picking on the US here deliberately, putting aside Medicare for the over 65's has a system the closest of which you seem to advocate, want to check the levels of GDP spent on health against outcomes?
The NHS spends a tiny fraction on non health activities for a start, there is not a vast marketing effort, the large amount of lobbying, the bureaucracy in maintaining this and the whole charging regime. People are still paying, whichever way you cut it. Those costs do impact on the patients.
Then check the average life expectancies between the two countries, on any measure, the NHS is doing pretty well.

The NHS is not a religion, it's far too pragmatic for that.
It won't sink us, you should know who might do that, those wonderful, under regulated financial industry, you do still remember what happened in 2008?
The disruptive elements of the Trade Unions from the 1950's to 1970's (another interest group like the bankers who thought that they were above society), were pussies by comparison to this lot.

The biggest area of government spending is the welfare, not the health, budget. By far.
You will have seen the rabble rousing from the Tories and their friends in the press (now you know why Cameron lied to the victims about phone hacking), about the 'shirkers' and such like.
They exist, however when you tell people that unemployment benefits are a mere 3% of welfare spending (government figures not that they like to mention it), they are shocked.
What is the rest?
Mostly pensions. Tell that to those who buy the PR effort from the government on this, especially if they are middle aged and more, that tends to give them pause for thought.

After all, they expect to get theirs, even if, as in most cases, they also have company and private schemes, since 'they paid into it'.
Another myth, as working people they are paying for the current pensions, when their time comes to get it, the current working population will be paying. Trouble is, the ratios between those two groups has been changing. More pensioners and fewer working people.
THAT is the challenge.

[Edited 2013-05-19 06:46:17]
 
romeobravo
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 1:34 pm



Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
Why does every topic have to somehow revert to the United States? How did this topic from the OP praising how he feels the NHS has benfitted him turn into an opinion fest on the US? I mean, again. and Again. It's just funny how we're dragged in kicking and screaming. Actually, you all are doing the kicking and screaming, Americans are simply stating and defending how they think things should be run IN OUR OWN COUNTRY . Be it healthcare, or gun control. There is no one America and one consensual opinion. I think the OP knew what he was doing.

Whist i am in favour of a private healthcare solution and share the Ameican belief that healthcare is a commodity and not a right just like food and shelter. The Americans have to acknowledge that their system is (A) not free market and (B) a disaster. The American government spends a similar amount on healthcare (per head) than the UK and similar countries so it can't even be stated that it's not socialised itself.

Of course the debate shouldn't be about US vs UK because that would just be puerile nationalism, it should be about what and what does not work.

As far as i understand the 3 key distortion with healthcare system in America are...

The tax code which encourages overspend and insurance on things that simply shouldn't be insured. Additionally it needlessly ties insurance with jobs which is completely undesirable if you actually want to change jobs or be out of work.

Malpractice laws and subsequent insurance to cover malpractice - the outcomes of malpractice should all be agreed voluntarily and contractually and the government should merely enforce these contract.

Lack of insurance competition across state (or national) lines.

There are other possible issues too that i don't know in a lot of depth. Possible room for IP/Patent reforms. Also laws which deny the ability to discriminate against age and force companies to cover certain conditions.

All distortions that have no doubt been implemented in the name of good intentions and not good results.

[Edited 2013-05-19 06:35:56]
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 2:12 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
What you are advocating is what was before. If you were born into anything than a pretty prosperous family and you fell sick, then tough shit.

Not really because i do believe that kids should get a chance and have funding for healthcare regardless of parental wealth. If you look at the link i posted about my political philosophy you'll notice a section about citizens dividend. Well i'd make that a citizens inheritance, so kids would have money for their their health and education and everyone would get a chance in life. Of course young people have some of the lowest healthcare costs going anyway, so in the early years when they are leaving home they should be able to afford insurance, even on a relatively (now tax free) low wage.

NB: The important thing about the above is that it's coming from a non-distortive tax which doesn't hurt the economy.

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
It won't sink us, you should know who might do that, those wonderful, under regulated financial industry, you do still remember what happened in 2008?

Nothing really to do with regulations. All to do with fiat currencies, Mr King and Mr Brown, something that came to a head in 2008 but really started in 2001. As the phrase goes, the banks got drunk but the government/central banks gave them the alcohol.

I dare say without all that we'd still be a relatively competent state even with the NHS (though it wouldn't have had as much investment during the boom years so the opinion might not be what it is as of now) never the less our reluctance to make cuts to the NHS the welfare state and other areas will finish us off. There is no serious political party in the UK that is willing to do what is right for the country and that reason is because these institutions make it politically impossible.

Quoting GDB (Reply 20):
Mostly pensions. Tell that to those who buy the PR effort from the government on this, especially if they are middle aged and more, that tends to give them pause for thought.

Pensions are a big problem too and why (you guessed it) i don't believe the state should be involved. Of course the only reason the state needs to get involved in pensions at all is because it absolutely hates savers so much and is hell bent on debasing the currency. If we had sound money then saving for a pension would be easy.

You're right that pensions are a huge expenditure, and we have to raid them unfortunately. For now means test them so anyone with X amount of wealth doesn't get a pension. Harsh, but the magnitude of the country's problems are far too great.

[Edited 2013-05-19 07:17:16]
 
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OA260
Posts: 20983
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 2:45 pm

For anyone interested in how the NHS operates a very recent documentary on a day in the life of the NHS with 100 cameras capturing what the NHS does.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHsroLpCl6U
 
mmo
Posts: 892
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Sun May 19, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
I love your sentence: "Having lived in both countries, I would like to add my thoughts." My first thought was "what is the other country and thoughs about what"? . But of course I should have guessed.

Perhaps you should take a look at your posts! You opened the door by your uninformed posts. I suggest that I have more qualifications to speak of NHS than you do. I have lived under both systems. You, just can pick and choose about what news rag you want to quote. Yes, the Express falls into that category.

You are attempting to portray the situation here as one that reverts to the middle ages. It is far from it. If you have something worthwhile to add, please do. Other wise making offhand comments such as you do does nothing to substantiate your position. Your comments illustrate you know noting about funding of the NHS and your comments further demonstrate you have an even looser grasp of just what the NHS does. So, I would suggest before you throw stones at me, you might want to brush up on you facts..

Back to you!!!
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane
 
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Dano1977
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Tue May 21, 2013 7:13 pm

The NHS ISN'T FREE. It's paid for via taxation. If you are from overseas and don't meet certain criteria, then you pay!

It seems only the bad news about the NHS makes it overseas.

Also when you have mis-informed and just plain dense politicians claiming that the NHS has "Death Panels"

I bet not even one of them has visited the UK or gone into a hospital.

I could say with certainty that this never made the papers overseas either...

"A recent comparative analysis of health care systems put the NHS second in a study of seven rich countries. The report put the UK health systems above those of Germany, Canada and the US; the NHS was deemed the most efficient among those health systems studied."




Yes, it does have its downsides, there are waiting lists for non critical/non life threatning operations and procedures. But if you have a dire medical emergency then the system does work.

My Uncle, had some strange blood tests results come back, within 6hrs he was at a hospital for more blood work and a body scan. He went back in the next day, and got told the news he had a form of cancer. Within 48hrs he was in surgery to remove what ever needed removing and was started on a course of chemotherapy.
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DeltaMD90
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Tue May 21, 2013 8:47 pm

Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 17):
Why does every topic have to somehow revert to the United States? How did this topic from the OP praising how he feels the NHS has benfitted him turn into an opinion fest on the US? I mean, again. and Again. It's just funny how we're dragged in kicking and screaming.

How are we being "dragged in kicking and screaming?" I'm an American and when I first read the topic I was gonna mention the US (again, as an American.) Both your posts have added little besides the fact you're mad that someone started this "inciteful thread" and someone brought the US into the discussion... it's not off topic and with a ton of Americans on this board, it's probably gonna get mentioned. And just because you disagree doesn't mean the other posters have to fall in line and not post their 2c. Suggest deletion of a post you think is inciteful or off topic

Personally, I like hearing what foreigners (everyday citizens, not politicians) have to say about their healthcare. It's a huge contrast to what I've heard all my life. I heard all the problems and very few of the pros and wondered what bozos would actually want nationalized healthcare. After hearing tons of foreigners post, it makes a lot more sense--the issue has been distorted and politicized in the US? What a surprise!  
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WestJet747
Posts: 1950
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Tue May 21, 2013 9:31 pm

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 1):
How does this compare to the Canadian system?

It's pretty much the same idea, although I've been told the British system is more efficient. I've never been to the UK so I can't say for myself.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 21):
Whist i am in favour of a private healthcare solution and share the Ameican belief that healthcare is a commodity and not a right just like food and shelter.

How do you define what is a commodity and what is a right? I define a right as anything essential to life, and that includes healthcare.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
How are we being "dragged in kicking and screaming?" I'm an American and when I first read the topic I was gonna mention the US (again, as an American.) Both your posts have added little besides the fact you're mad that someone started this "inciteful thread" and someone brought the US into the discussion... it's not off topic and with a ton of Americans on this board, it's probably gonna get mentioned. And just because you disagree doesn't mean the other posters have to fall in line and not post their 2c. Suggest deletion of a post you think is inciteful or off topic

Well said. I wanted to say something but refrained from doing so; I'm glad someone did.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 26):
Personally, I like hearing what foreigners (everyday citizens, not politicians) have to say about their healthcare. It's a huge contrast to what I've heard all my life. I heard all the problems and very few of the pros and wondered what bozos would actually want nationalized healthcare. After hearing tons of foreigners post, it makes a lot more sense--the issue has been distorted and politicized in the US? What a surprise!

It's amazing speaking to Americans and finding how much you guys are lied to about healthcare elsewhere, eh? Also of note is that the US is the only place where people call it "socialized medicine" as if we've had some despotic leader burden the people with such an awful system, when it's quite the contrary.
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romeobravo
Posts: 1440
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Tue May 21, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 27):
How do you define what is a commodity and what is a right? I define a right as anything essential to life, and that includes healthcare.

Those would be positive rights. I believe generally in negative rights which means positive rights are in fact a violation of certain negative rights.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_rights

Back to the NHS...

I never realised just how much NHS spending ballooned under Labour. In 1997 it was ~£50 bn (2010 adjusted) and in 2010 it had risen to £120bn. That is absolutely criminal!

Meanwhile the UK is running a deficit to the order of ~100bn and New Labour Lite (Tories) are going to add another 600bn to the debt with their nonsterity measures. All this time though they're ringfencing the NHS.

I honestly can't believe just how dumb the people who run this country are.

In fact if it had stayed at £50bn and if they let people opt out i could almost support it.
 
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garpd
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My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 12:50 pm

The NHS is something I am truly proud of and very happy to pay my taxes for. It's one of the few levies on my salary that I actually think is justified and for the common good.

It makes be even prouder to know that visitors to our country (be it on leisure or business) who happen to be injured can also benefit from our healthcare without having to worry about what financial burdens it will put upon them.

Sure, the NHS has its faults, frankly I think there are too many men is suits and offices and not enough doctors and nurses, but from my experience, the positive elements of the NHS far outweighs the negatives.

The system works. It could do with a little oiling here and there, but it works.

My brethren in America should not be so scared of "Obamacare". It is essentially what the NHS is and will benefit everyone in the long run.
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StarAC17
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 3:53 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 2):
If it was so good, why does the government threaten us with prison time if we refuse to pay for it?

Because it is funded by taxes and the penalty for not paying taxes can be jail time.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 21):
Additionally it needlessly ties insurance with jobs which is completely undesirable if you actually want to change jobs or be out of work.

In the US it would never be affordable for most middle-class families to be able to afford to get insurance. People get it through their employers because they can get a cheaper group rates.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 21):
Lack of insurance competition across state (or national) lines.

This is something Obamacare is addressing. They intention is to set up exchanges where an individual can see all of the competitors out there and choose the plan that best suits them at a reasonable cost. This creates competition between the insurance companies something anyone who favors the free market should want.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 27):
Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 1):
How does this compare to the Canadian system?

It's pretty much the same idea, although I've been told the British system is more efficient. I've never been to the UK so I can't say for myself.

Westjet747 the UK system is basically the same as the Australian one, in fact Brits can use Medicare in Australia and Aussies can use the NHS.

The differences between Canada's single payer and the NHS is that in Canada it is full single payer where I can see any doctor I please whom most have a private practice and they charge that province. Also if I need a doctor in BC they can charge Ontario for my care and vice-versa.

The biggest difference with the NHS is that if you use it the doctors, clinics and hospitals are all owned and operated by the government and the staff are government employees essentially. That is not always the case in Canada.

The other big difference is that the UK is two-tier and Brits are encouraged to also have private insurance and this allows them to go to private hospitals. While this is the case in Canada with some things like dental and prescription drugs etc. it isn't fully two-tier although there should be a debate on it.

The challenge with a two-tier system in Canada is that someone paying cash can outbid the government and the doctor will take their business thus screwing the person who doesn't have the means to do it and needs the public system, thus skipping the line.

This is not allowed in the UK because the systems are independent and the person opting for private treatment can get it taking the burden off the NHS (they are joining another line and not skipping the NHS one). Also IIRC doctors in the UK have to be in the public system for a time before becoming private physicians. In Australia I know you get a tax credit for having private insurance but I'm not sure if you get one in the UK.
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romeobravo
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 4:01 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
Because it is funded by taxes and the penalty for not paying taxes can be jail time.

I think the point has gone over your head. Why does the government have to do that? If it was so good why don't we pay for it voluntary. Just like i pay for all the other things i consider good value in my life voluntarily.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
In the US it would never be affordable for most middle-class families to be able to afford to get insurance. People get it through their employers because they can get a cheaper group rates.

WOT? Why would it not be affordable? if people can afford it now why would they suddenly stop if the route of paying for it changed?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
This is something Obamacare is addressing. They intention is to set up exchanges where an individual can see all of the competitors out there and choose the plan that best suits them at a reasonable cost. This creates competition between the insurance companies something anyone who favors the free market should want.

No s**t.
 
WestJet747
Posts: 1950
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 4:24 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 30):
Also if I need a doctor in BC they can charge Ontario for my care and vice-versa.

Ontario doesn't cover the full amount. I had to see a doctor while in Montreal last year and Ontario only takes care of 70%.   Good thing it was only a minor treatment so it didn't cost me too much.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 31):
If it was so good why don't we pay for it voluntary. Just like i pay for all the other things i consider good value in my life voluntarily.

Surely that isn't a serious question. Obviously the answer is shortsightedness. Many people don't want to pay for something that doesn't immediately yield a realizable value. You voluntarily pay for products because you realize the value almost instantly, whereas with government services, you would pay taxes then receive no immediate benefit thus creating the illusion that "taxes are pointless". It doesn't mean that taxes don't serve an important purpose.
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StarAC17
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 4:36 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 31):
I think the point has gone over your head. Why does the government have to do that? If it was so good why don't we pay for it voluntary.

Because people won't pay and get the most expensive treatment and rely on the state anyways which is why something like health care is so expensive in the US.

Government doesn't have to provide health care but you are the minority in Britain when it comes to this opinion and even the conservatives there don't

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 31):
WOT? Why would it not be affordable? if people can afford it now why would they suddenly stop if the route of paying for it changed?

The US has 50 million uninsured people so about one in every six people can't afford care (there are some who just won't pay but I don't think that is much).

For many the unit cost is far lower if it comes out of their pay which is what employers do but employees don't see it. You probably could opt out and get the cash but at this time if you shopped around you would probably end up paying more because you are only one plan when a corporation manages thousands of them it buys in bulk.
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flyingthe757
Posts: 254
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:44 pm

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 4:41 pm

Quoting baexecutive (Thread starter):
I think it's a hideous institution. Something so monolithic cannot be efficient. The amount you pay is determined by how productive you are and not how well you look after your health. The level of service you get is determined by bureaucrats and not by how much you've contributed to society. Plus there's little incentive to bring costs down or improve service.

Move to a country where you have to pay for every little thing, a xray costs you a few grand, a check up the same, god forbid yu get hurt and spend a week in hospital and have to fork out over 100,000 USD or something.

Im sure you would change your mind.

The NHS might have its issues, but the times I have had to use it, its been there for me and helped me and treated me well.
 
romeobravo
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 5:22 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Surely that isn't a serious question. Obviously the answer is shortsightedness. Many people don't want to pay for something that doesn't immediately yield a realizable value. You voluntarily pay for products because you realize the value almost instantly, whereas with government services, you would pay taxes then receive no immediate benefit thus creating the illusion that "taxes are pointless". It doesn't mean that taxes don't serve an important purpose.

Humans aren't moths drawn to lights you know. Most people would understand the need for health insurance if there was no offering from the government. Most people manage to see the need for travel, driving, house, life insurance etc. Of course they are entitled to go without.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 33):
Because people won't pay and get the most expensive treatment and rely on the state anyways which is why something like health care is so expensive in the US.

That's not a very coherant sentence. I've highlighted in reply 28 why healthcare is so expensive in the US.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 33):
For many the unit cost is far lower if it comes out of their pay which is what employers do but employees don't see it. You probably could opt out and get the cash but at this time if you shopped around you would probably end up paying more because you are only one plan when a corporation manages thousands of them it buys in bulk.

Yes, but that is because of the tax code. If you removed these tax distortion, there would be no tax benefit to have insurance via an employer, people would shop individually or as a family if they wanted it and it need not be any or noticeably more expensive.

Quoting flyingthe757 (Reply 34):
Move to a country where you have to pay for every little thing, a xray costs you a few grand, a check up the same, god forbid yu get hurt and spend a week in hospital and have to fork out over 100,000 USD or something.

Im sure you would change your mind.

The NHS might have its issues, but the times I have had to use it, its been there for me and helped me and treated me well.

You speak as if without the NHS there would be no market solutions to healthcare.

I'm sure i would change my mind if health insurance was banned, I would change it back if it wasn't banned though.

[Edited 2013-05-22 10:26:31]
 
StarAC17
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 5:35 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 35):
Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 33):
Because people won't pay and get the most expensive treatment and rely on the state anyways which is why something like health care is so expensive in the US.

That's not a very coherant sentence. I've highlighted in reply 28 why healthcare is so expensive in the US.

One other reason is that many American wait and go the the ER for care which is where the treatment is the most expensive.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 35):
Yes, but that is because of the tax code. If you removed these tax distortion, there would be no tax benefit to have insurance via an employer, people would shop individually or as a family if they wanted it and it need not be any or noticeably more expensive.

Fair point, but to make it affordable there still needs to be a mandate to get coverage. If there isn't you will get short sighted people who won't get coverage and that burden will shifted to the taxpayer. That is unless you would leave people to die, which is something a civilized society tries to minimize.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Ontario doesn't cover the full amount. I had to see a doctor while in Montreal last year and Ontario only takes care of 70%.   Good thing it was only a minor treatment so it didn't cost me too much.

Good to know, that might be a Quebec thing though as a lot of times there are rules for the other 9 provinces and then a Quebec rule  .

Although with anything serious I would think they would get you back to your province ASAP.
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romeobravo
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:04 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 36):
Fair point, but to make it affordable there still needs to be a mandate to get coverage.

No, there doesn't.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 36):
If there isn't you will get short sighted people who won't get coverage and that burden will shifted to the taxpayer.

No, the burden shifts to their pocket or charity.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 36):
That is unless you would leave people to die, which is something a civilized society tries to minimize.

Would this be a civilised society that mandates theft?  

People would only die from their own stupidity - which is pretty deadly already.

Socialised care already causes many unnecessary deaths, you just don't see it because you've never seen what healthcare would be like in an environment which encouraged costs to come down and quality to go up.

[Edited 2013-05-22 11:12:10]
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:11 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 37):
Socialised care already causes many unnecessary deaths

Show us the numbers proving that the UK system causes 'many unnecessary deaths'. I suspect you'll find it saves a hell of a lot of lives.
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romeobravo
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:23 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 38):
Show us the numbers proving that the UK system causes 'many unnecessary deaths'. I suspect you'll find it saves a hell of a lot of lives.

You won't see them because they don't exist.

Free market capitalism has a pretty brutal record of producing better quality at lower prices over communist systems however, it's therefore logical to conclude that many people have needlessly died because of the NHS.
 
RussianJet
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 39):
You won't see them because they don't exist.

Wow, that's so convenient, what with it meaning you can bandy around totally unsupported, wild claims about how many people the NHS must kill compared to other systems.....

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 39):
Free market capitalism has a pretty brutal record of producing better quality at lower prices over communist systems however, it's therefore logical to conclude that many people have needlessly died because of the NHS.

And there's the icing on the cake - comparing the NHS to communist systems of the past (presumably with a straight face as well, though we can't see that).....absolutely hilarious. Just by the by though, what do you actually know about, say, the mainstream Soviet healthcare system? How was the pre-revolution system working out for most people? How has access to quality care improved for large numbers of people in thousands of the remoter parts of Russia since the end of the Union, or even indeed in many of the major cities? Try speaking to a few Russians and find out for yourself. Here's a hint - it's regressed massively and now totally sucks.
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OA260
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 6:31 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 38):
Show us the numbers proving that the UK system causes 'many unnecessary deaths'. I suspect you'll find it saves a hell of a lot of lives.

Indeed in fact where any errors are highlighted they often change. The digital prescriptions by 2018 is another step to minimise any errors in dispensing patients medication. So in fact the NHS continues to change to save even more lives and offer a better system for all.

Even if you were the top private hospital in the world you will always sadly kill people. The NHS has saved millions of lives !
 
romeobravo
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Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 7:14 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 40):
what with it meaning you can bandy around totally unsupported

Why is it unsupported? If you think it's unsupported, then go ahead and point out a commodity that it better administered by holding a gun to our heads and redistributing our extorted wages?

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 40):
And there's the icing on the cake - comparing the NHS to communist systems of the past (presumably with a straight face as well, though we can't see that).....absolutely hilarious.

Well it is isn't it. It's centrally planned and it's tax funded free at the point of delivery. I'm not saying that the whole country is communist but healthcare more or less is. The same set of incentives are there. People are not financially incentivised to look after their health. They are not incentivised to seek cost efficiency in the healthcare they choose. And the NHS are not as acutely incentivised to keep costs down nor innovate because they are a monopoly. The pressure to push costs down comes from the top, and that is not actually currently happening. In fact the £70bn budget increase in 13 years is bankrupting our country, and when sterling finally collapses, those unseen unnecessary deaths will be very visible indeed.
 
flipdewaf
Posts: 1529
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 7:29 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 35):
Humans aren't moths drawn to lights you know.

it's funny because that's almost exactly how they do behave.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 37):
Socialised care already causes many unnecessary deaths,

indeed it does, but then so does non socialised care so your point is mute.

I don't really mind your rambling because they are obviously misinformed, quite funny really. Keep it up Romeo! LOL.

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RussianJet
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RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 7:35 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 42):
Why is it unsupported? If you think it's unsupported, then go ahead and point out a commodity that it better administered by holding a gun to our heads and redistributing our extorted wages?

It's an unsupported claim because you yourself admit that you can't provide any data or factual evidence to substantiate it. As for your unrelated and random demand, I see healthcare as a right essential to life, not merely a commodity.
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romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 8:10 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 44):
As for your unrelated and random demand, I see healthcare as a right essential to life, not merely a commodity.

Ok you've dodged the question then. Well it's still a commodity whether or not you think it's a right too, you just think it's a right to a commodity.

Much like food and shelter i believe that particular commodity would be better served via the free market system, so the "demand" is still valid.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 45):
Ok you've dodged the question then

Not at all, I just don't believe the terms of the question are accurate. Furthermore, I don't believe that taxation is extortion at all, further undermining the terms of what you ask.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 45):
Well it's still a commodity whether or not you think it's a right too, you just think it's a right to a commodity.

I don't agree. Healthcare is something quite apart from other things which are bought and sold, and I believe strongly should be considered as something quite uniquely different from things even like food. I don't think it's a right to a commodity at all - I believe it's a right, full stop.
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romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 8:46 pm

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 43):
I don't really mind your rambling because they are obviously misinformed, quite funny really. Keep it up Romeo! LOL.

Yes, but then again, you debate like a small child so what you think is hardly of much concern to me.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 46):
I don't agree. Healthcare is something quite apart from other things which are bought and sold, and I believe strongly should be considered as something quite uniquely different from things even like food. I don't think it's a right to a commodity at all - I believe it's a right, full stop.

Ok obviously you are extremely reluctant to give anything away.

Can you not at least see the merits of a voluntary healthcare system as supposed to a forceful/parasitical one?

Can you not see how the incentives to improve medical quality and keep costs down are far stronger in a free market system with competitors and not monopolies like in almost every other industry which requires human action to achieve results.

If not, I'd be curious to learn what characteristics of healthcare you perceive to be fundamentally different that means these normal dynamics aren't there.
 
RussianJet
Posts: 5982
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2007 4:15 am

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 9:09 pm

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 47):
Ok obviously you are extremely reluctant to give anything away.

No - I just disagree.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 47):
Can you not at least see the merits of a voluntary healthcare system as supposed to a forceful/parasitical one?

A loaded question - I do not view the NHS as forceful or parasitical in any way.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 47):

Can you not see how the incentives to improve medical quality and keep costs down are far stronger in a free market system with competitors and not monopolies like in almost every other industry which requires human action to achieve results.

No, I can't.

Quoting RomeoBravo (Reply 47):
If not, I'd be curious to learn what characteristics of healthcare you perceive to be fundamentally different that means these normal dynamics aren't there.

I'm not saying that no economic dynamics exist, as obviously the system has to buy things and interact in some ways with the wider economy. Economics should not, however, be the overriding priority. Looking after the health of the nation and having healthcare accessible to all regardless of means should be the priority. Yes we should seek best value within such parameters, but this is something that ultimately should not be directly about making money. Look after the health of the country properly and the economic benefits will come anyway.
✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
 
romeobravo
Posts: 1440
Joined: Thu Feb 14, 2013 8:37 pm

RE: My Highest Respect To The British NHS

Wed May 22, 2013 9:25 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 48):
A loaded question - I do not view the NHS as forceful or parasitical in any way.

How does it get its funding then? We are forced to pay for it whether we like it or not. If you have a right to something, you have a right to force someone to provide you with healthcare.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 48):
Yes we should seek best value within such parameters, but this is something that ultimately should not be directly about making money.

The NHS is about making money. Nurses, GPs, surgeons, managers, consultants all make money. Many of them far too much. The advantages of a competitive market vs a monopolistic one is that these amounts are kept in check.

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 48):
Look after the health of the country properly and the economic benefits will come anyway.

That is in stark contrast with reality though. The country is going bankrupt. Part of that reason is because we are grossly overspending on healthcare - largely because we are divorced from the costs.

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