fr8mech
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Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 7:57 pm

Well, it looks like the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has asked Apple CEO Tim Cook to explain Apple's tax situation.

It seems that Apple takes advantage of certain provisions (let's call them loopholes) in the tax code to reduce its tax burden.

Mind you, none of this is illegal, nor does it appear that anyone is saying Apple broke the law.

So why exactly has Apple been called on the carpet?

http://news.yahoo.com/apples-cook-fa...es-senate-questions-154822735.html

A little more detail here:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/conniegu...s-to-be-dramatically-simplified/2/

You gotta love Rand Paul.

http://tech.fortune.cnn.com/2013/05/...-twitter/?section=money_technology

About 6 1/2 minutes:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9rjLhjxQTws
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casinterest
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:04 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
You gotta love Rand Paul.

On this one, Rand is right on the money.

I may disagree with the policies Apple and other businesses are taking advantage of, but they are the policies of the Government. However I do think that the Senate hearing is more of a drum beat for further issues regarding deregulation of tax policies .
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Ken777
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:09 pm

Apple posted Tim Cook's Opening Remarks at:

http://www.apple.com/pr/pdf/Apple_Testimony_to_PSI.pdf

The document presents an interesting picture of various aspects of Apple's internal operations. When you consider that 61% of Apple's sales are outside of the US it is understandable (to me, at least) why the company is very careful managing funds outside of the country. The ability to grow internationally with these funds (especially in areas like China) is something that shareholders should be very appreciative of.

As for the politicians, just another Dog & Pony Show. Unfortunately for the politicians there are other, more important factors going on in the world. Like the Oklahoma Tornadoes, which are far more deserving of our attention than a mass of politicians flapping their jaws.
 
BMI727
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:13 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):

Well, it looks like the Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations has asked Apple CEO Tim Cook to explain Apple's tax situation.

It seems that Apple takes advantage of certain provisions (let's call them loopholes) in the tax code to reduce its tax burden.

Apple is getting picked on for being successful. If I were Mr. Cook I'd have told the senators to go screw themselves. Apple has nothing to gain and everything to lose from this farce.

If the government wants to do something, drop the taxes so that money can come into the country. But if they insist on tightening their grip, more money will slip away.
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mt99
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:21 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
If I were Mr. Cook I'd have told the senators to go screw themselves.

I agree.

I would have said: "We comply with all the rules. YOU (congress) makes up the rules. If YOU don't like the rules that are currently in the books, change them. When you do, we will comply with them. the ball is in YOUR court, not Apple's"
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fr8mech
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:28 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
On this one, Rand is right on the money.

I may not always agree with Mr. Paul...though I do seem to do so more than not...but, he is spot on through his whole statement.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
However I do think that the Senate hearing is more of a drum beat for further issues regarding deregulation of tax policies

Let's hope so. We need a simpler, more efficient tax code. We need a tax code that that does what a tax code is supposed to do: raise money for the essential functions of government.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
I would have said: "We comply with all the rules. YOU (congress) makes up the rules. If YOU don't like the rules that are currently in the books, change them. When you do, we will comply with them. the ball is in YOUR court, not Apple's"

Absolutely correct. As Mr. Paul said, tax policy is the province of the Congress.
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Mir
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:40 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
It seems that Apple takes advantage of certain provisions (let's call them loopholes) in the tax code to reduce its tax burden.

Mind you, none of this is illegal, nor does it appear that anyone is saying Apple broke the law.

So why exactly has Apple been called on the carpet?

I'd call them on the carpet in order to shine some light on how these loopholes work so that the public can see what sort of machinations go on behind the scenes with the tax policy. All that stuff is pretty obscure, and a high profile case like this makes it less so.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
I would have said: "We comply with all the rules. YOU (congress) makes up the rules. If YOU don't like the rules that are currently in the books, change them. When you do, we will comply with them. the ball is in YOUR court, not Apple's"

Absolutely correct. But in order to change them, there's going to have to be public support, and it's difficult to drum up that public support when the only ones who really know how the loopholes work are the big companies and their accountancy firms.

-Mir
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Dreadnought
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
On this one, Rand is right on the money.

Are we agreeing on something? No way!

Quoting casinterest (Reply 1):
I may disagree with the policies Apple and other businesses are taking advantage of, but they are the policies of the Government.

Knew it was too good to be true...

These are profits from overseas operations. Not US sales. There is no "loophole at work here, this is very basic Tax Territoriality. A state taxes economic activity that takes place within its borders. The US taxes Honda on cars it sells here. France will tax Apple's business activities in France.

The main problem here is that the US government has developed a level of greed unmatched in any country that I can think of. Not only does it want to tax activity within the US, but it also wants to tax activity outside the US. US citizens living and working overseas continue to have to pay taxes, even though they are already taxed locally. And they want to tax US-owned companies the same way. Fortunately there exists a provision that essentially differs any such taxes as long as the money is not repatriated.

What a dumb idea.

Repatriated cash from overseas business is basically free money to the US economy. Remember, the earnings had nothing to do with the US. Apple (France) SARL bought Ipods from China and sold them in France. and made a lot of profits (after having paid full taxes in France). 1) The US government did nothing to earn its share, and 2) bringing that money home means it can be distributed to shareholders and employees, who will spend more, or can be used to fund new businesses, etc.

Allowing that money and all other foreign earnings tax-free back into the US brings nothing but good to the US. But some politicians simply can't allow a that to happen. They have to demand their cut. So the money stays outside the country, benefiting nobody but Irish money managers, and eventually the shareholders of a foreign company, because the only thing Apple can possibly do with so much money is to buy something with it - and that company will have to be outside the US.

Considering the amount of money they've accumulated, perhaps they will soon buy a little place for Apple employees to retire to. Australia, perhaps  

Rand Paul has it exactly right. The Senate should be begging Apple to bring that money home, tax free.
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BMI727
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:48 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
When you do, we will comply with them.

More like "When you do, we will find new ways around it, outsource more, and keep more money elsewhere."

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
We need a simpler, more efficient tax code. We need a tax code that that does what a tax code is supposed to do: raise money for the essential functions of government.

Switch to FairTax. No corporate taxes so there are no accounting games, no reason to keep money away from America, and very little for large companies to lobby for.

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
I'd call them on the carpet in order to shine some light on how these loopholes work so that the public can see what sort of machinations go on behind the scenes with the tax policy.

You want them to show up and lay their cards on the table? I'd reply to that request with a reply that would make Rahmbo blush.

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
But in order to change them, there's going to have to be public support,

...in other words, vilify American companies and convince people that they are being screwed even if they aren't.
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Revelation
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 8:51 pm

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
I would have said: "We comply with all the rules. YOU (congress) makes up the rules. If YOU don't like the rules that are currently in the books, change them. When you do, we will comply with them. the ball is in YOUR court, not Apple's"

And in the mean time they will make sure their lobbyists undermine any effort to change the rules, and if rule changes come along, they still have huge loopholes in them.

Apple is being called out because they happen to be the world's biggest corporation and have used the loopholes to great effect.

The main way it works is simple:

Quote:

The schemes used by all three companies work by arranging for the units that make sales to customers in Europe and elsewhere to make tax-deductible payments to untaxed, or little taxed, affiliates for the use of intellectual property such as brands and business processes.

So, they avoid tax at the point of sale because they make these tax-deductible payments to the shell corporations, and then they avoid tax for the shell corporation by parking it in a low-tax locale (Bermuda, Luxemburg, etc).

The problem for them is that the billions end up parked in Bermuda etc and can't be repatriated without paying a huge tax at that point, so there's no free lunch, yet we read:

Quote:

The subcommittee report also noted that Apple has been setting aside billions for tax bills it may never pay. As previously reported by The Associated Press, the overlooked asset that Apple has been building up could boost Apple's profits by as much as $10.5 billion. However, Apple has been lobbying to change U.S. law so it can erase its tax liabilities in a less conspicuous fashion.

Apple needs to tap some of the $102B it has oversees (of its total $145B hoard) to pay the $100B in dividends it's promised to its stockholders, yet repatriating it will cause it to be taxed. They have been putting aside money to pay that tax (i.e. $10.5B) knowing that if they want to use the money they'd have to pay the tax, but as we read, they have sent in the lobbyists. If successful, they can keep a large chunk of that $10.5B. Perfectly natural, but too bad for us non-corporate tax payers who can't throw millions at lobbyists because we'll get back billions.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/panel-apple-us...side-us-avoid-taxes-210041569.html
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fr8mech
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 9:04 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
I'd call them on the carpet in order to shine some light on how these loopholes work so that the public can see what sort of machinations go on behind the scenes with the tax policy. All that stuff is pretty obscure, and a high profile case like this makes it less so.

And why is it so obscure? Why do corporations go through such machinations? Why does the public not know about them? Because the tax code is cumbersome. Because the tax code is complex. Because the tax code is ridiculous.

But, again, I ask, why are we asking a company, in a public hearing, about their tax strategy? They have broken no law. They are complying with the law. There is only one real reason to bring Apple or any other company using these provisions of the tax code, to the hearing: that is to castigate them for finding a legal way to not pay money to the US Treasury.

If Mr. McCain and Mr. Levin wanted to bring this stuff to light, they should be grilling the IRS...oh wait...they're busy in another room.
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 9:14 pm

I have a strange feeling that if this corporation wasn't "Apple" a lot of people would be calling this company a corrupt, shady organization. Can't prove it, but I just have a feeling... (hey, it made a bunch of liberals agree with Rand Paul, you know something weird is up   )
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 9:46 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Knew it was too good to be true...

These are profits from overseas operations.

Well yes and no. It depends on particulars. and the devil is in the details. Sure If they sold Iphones in Ireland, they should keep the money in Ireland Right?

But what about the designers in the US that designed the software?
What about the testers in other countries that tested the code? They get paid right?

What about the Manufacturer in China? They get paid.

The funds are moved where needed to cover costs.


You are way to quick to just dismiss my simple point. My point is that there are multiple government policies that make it more efficient to keep "profits" overseas. However the "cost of business" is easily repatriated due to taxes. and other concerns.
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Mir
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 10:04 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
...in other words, vilify American companies and convince people that they are being screwed even if they aren't.

It's not vilifying American companies - Apple's doing nothing wrong. It's vilifying the people who put the tax code together (i.e. Congress and their various lobbyists).

And the ones who are really being screwed are the other businesses that can't afford the level of international expansion that would let them use the same loopholes that Apple does. It strikes me that the playing field isn't entirely level.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
And why is it so obscure? Why do corporations go through such machinations? Why does the public not know about them? Because the tax code is cumbersome. Because the tax code is complex. Because the tax code is ridiculous.

The tax code is all of those things, and it needs to be simplified. But it also needs to be simplified in the right way, and one can't do that if the people can't act as a check on the lobbyists.

-Mir
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Ken777
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 10:09 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
If the government wants to do something, drop the taxes so that money can come into the country.

When you look at all of the loopholes you find that corporate taxes are not that high. Look at how hard the GOP in the Senate fought to protect that $40 Billion cash handout to the oil companies. You think the oil companies would let that cash handout go for "lower rates"? Not a chance.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
We need a simpler, more efficient tax code.

My brother-in-law is a tax lawyer and LOVES it when the tax code is "simplified". His income always goes up.

As soon as the effort to "simplify" the tax code all of the lobbyists come out of the woodwork. But you know that, don't you?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 5):
We need a tax code that that does what a tax code is supposed to do: raise money for the essential functions of government.

We have that. It is well financed by political contributions (which is why it is around 72,000 pages long) and any changes will only be with the approval of the wealthy (individual & business) in the country.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The main problem here is that the US government has developed a level of greed unmatched in any country that I can think of

Not really. Take a look at ll the loopholes available and the games allowed and it's not that bad. Old Romney could pull in over $20 Million and only pay 13% - not that bad.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Remember, the earnings had nothing to do with the US. Apple (France) SARL bought Ipods from China and sold them in France. and made a lot of profits (after having paid full taxes in France)

Actually sales in inter nation markets do have something with Apple in the US - Apple's rights to intellectual property is retained in the US, and other assets, such as advertising design, are also retained.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
1) The US government did nothing to earn its share

It provides the business environment that allows businesses to function. For that it becomes a (generally) silent partner.

When I had my little one man company I had a few silent partners. The IRS, SOcial Security Administration, Medicare, the Oklahoma Tax Office, etc.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
But some politicians simply can't allow a that to happen

Politicians will do what they are told to do by the lobbyists. Any politician with a moral backbone these days will be kicked out in the next primary election.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
"When you do, we will find new ways around it, outsource more, and keep more money elsewhere."

If you read Apple's release you'll see that they are paying about 2.5% of the total business taxes paid into the US Treasury for income taxes. ($1 Billion for each $40 Billion paid into the Treasury.) Then add in all of the other US based taxes, from FICA to state income taxes and all of the various local taxes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Switch to FairTax.

Geez, that is just what we need to kill permanently off the middle class.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
No corporate taxes so there are no accounting games, no reason to keep money away from America, and very little for large companies to lobby for.

Doubt if companies would go for that as it would (1) kill of the tax credits (cash handouts) they receive, (2) increase taxes for most Americans, thus reducing their ability to sell their products in the US and (3) motivate other countries ti increase their taxes on US companies as they know the cash would be available.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
US citizens living and working overseas continue to have to pay taxes, even though they are already taxed locally.

That's a no-braianer. When we lived in Australia our tax calculation was US Tax less Aussie Tax. As the Aussie Tax was more than the US Tax our US Taxes due was z-e-r-o.  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
they avoid tax at the point of sale

Actually they don't avoid POS related taxes, be it Sale Taxes, GST, VAT or what ever a local government tax is.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Because the tax code is cumbersome. Because the tax code is complex. Because the tax code is ridiculous.

The tax code is exactly what politicians were paid to put in place. The term is "political contributions" and the USSC has really opened the door for huge payments - making it clearer that politicians will be even more responsive to big money. Reality is that you get what they paid for.
 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 10:14 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 12):
Well yes and no. It depends on particulars. and the devil is in the details. Sure If they sold Iphones in Ireland, they should keep the money in Ireland Right?

But what about the designers in the US that designed the software?
What about the testers in other countries that tested the code? They get paid right?

What about the Manufacturer in China? They get paid.

The funds are moved where needed to cover costs.

That's all taken care of through the rules governing intercompany sales and transfers. That's all been taxed properly. We are talking about what's left over.


Quoting casinterest (Reply 12):
You are way to quick to just dismiss my simple point. My point is that there are multiple government policies that make it more efficient to keep "profits" overseas.

And I don't disagree with that, and add that the second point is that since repatriation of overseas profits is a pure net profit to the US economy, the government should stop being so greedy and allow all companies to bring in those funds, tax free. The benefit to the economy would be tremendous.
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WestJet747
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 10:15 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
So why exactly has Apple been called on the carpet?

Dog and pony show. Nuff said.

This all reminds me of when the British government pulled in executives from Starbucks (Google and Amazon were also dragged in) to explain why they didn't record any profits in England, yet they were apparently making billions in the Netherlands, a much smaller market. It's pretty much the same deal: because the bloody tax code lets them! They tried grilling the execs to make an example of them, but all the MPs did was expose their own foolishness and lack of understanding of their own damn laws.

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):
You gotta love Rand Paul.

Damn right. Although his tweets don't directly address the real issue of the government's ineffectiveness, he really just sounds like a cheerleader (albeit for the right team).

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
If I were Mr. Cook I'd have told the senators to go screw themselves.

I wouldn't have been so kind...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The main problem here is that the US government has developed a level of greed unmatched in any country that I can think of. Not only does it want to tax activity within the US, but it also wants to tax activity outside the US.

        

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):
I have a strange feeling that if this corporation wasn't "Apple" a lot of people would be calling this company a corrupt, shady organization. Can't prove it, but I just have a feeling...

Of course you can prove it. Look at what happened with GE last year. Pretty much the exact same underlying cause, yet they were dragged across the coals by public opinion. I can't even tell you how many arguments I had at the time with people who believed it was GE's fault...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
Apple's rights to intellectual property is retained in the US, and other assets, such as advertising design, are also retained.

Except that it's basically impossible to value intellectual property. If you can't put a number to something, then you can't attribute earnings to it as far as taxes go.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 10:19 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
Actually sales in inter nation markets do have something with Apple in the US - Apple's rights to intellectual property is retained in the US, and other assets, such as advertising design, are also retained.

No. Apple (France) pays license fees to the parent company, royalties, pays a fair market price for goods and supplies it has to buy from the parent or other related companies.

Apple (US) will pay taxes on those royalty and license fees.


Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
It provides the business environment that allows businesses to function. For that it becomes a (generally) silent partner.

The French government, not the US. Because of that, Apple France pays French taxes.
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Revelation
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 10:29 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 12):
Well yes and no. It depends on particulars. and the devil is in the details. Sure If they sold Iphones in Ireland, they should keep the money in Ireland Right?

Indeed, but that's not what is happening here.

Quote:

Apple uses five companies located in Ireland to carry out its tax strategy, according to the report. The companies are located at the same address in Cork, Ireland, and they share members of their boards of directors. While all five companies were incorporated in Ireland, only two of them also have tax residency in that country. That means the other three aren't legally required to pay taxes in Ireland because they aren't managed or controlled in that country, in Apple's view.

The report says Apple capitalizes on a difference between U.S. and Irish rules regarding tax residency. In Ireland, a company must be managed and controlled in the country to be a tax resident. Under U.S. law, a company is a tax resident of the country in which it was established. Therefore, the Apple companies aren't tax residents of Ireland nor of the U.S., since they weren't incorporated in the U.S., in Apple's view.

The subcommittee said Apple's strategy of not declaring tax residency in any country could be unique among corporations.

"Apple wasn't satisfied with shifting its profits to a low-tax offshore tax haven," said Levin. "Apple sought the Holy Grail of tax avoidance. It has created offshore entities holding tens of billions of dollars, while claiming to be tax resident nowhere."

Ireland is chosen because it has that legal quirk that says if you manage the company from outside Ireland (i.e. from the US) then the company is not a tax resident of Ireland. Apple has funneled billions of dollars from all kinds of different things through these Irish shell corporations.

Quote:

Irish subsidiary that earned $22 billion in 2011 paid only $10 million in taxes

Note that the Irish did not consume $22B of Apple products in 2011.

Ref: http://news.yahoo.com/panel-apple-us...side-us-avoid-taxes-210041569.html
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Flighty
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 11:06 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Rand Paul has it exactly right. The Senate should be begging Apple to bring that money home, tax free.

  

There shouldn't even be corporate taxes in the first place.

If you want to tax rich _people_, tax rich people. But taxing and penalizing corporate activity is anti-economy and anti-public. The government, of course, is free to be anti-public -- to the extent that they can somehow lead the sheeple on, and strip them bare, and tell them how helpless they would be without powerful father figure lords who wisely command them to and fro.
 
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casinterest
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 11:47 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Note that the Irish did not consume $22B of Apple products in 2011.

And this is the crux of my point. Apple is taking advantage of laws that exist to hide profits.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
There shouldn't even be corporate taxes in the first place.

Why not? Corporations use and require the same facilities that people do. Corporations can deduct their expenses, but if they are turning a profit, they should be subject to taxes, just as anyone who invests and gets a return does.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 11:55 pm

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
Apple is taking advantage of laws that exist to hide profits.

...from those who have no business taking any of it.
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fr8mech
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Tue May 21, 2013 11:56 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
My brother-in-law is a tax lawyer and LOVES it when the tax code is "simplified". His income always goes up.

I'm guessing his income hasn't gone up in a long time. Because, the tax code hasn't been actually simplified in years.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
Damn right. Although his tweets don't directly address the real issue of the government's ineffectiveness, he really just sounds like a cheerleader (albeit for the right team).

The "tweet" platform really doesn't allow for a whole lot of elaboration. In fact, the tweet platform is perfect for cheerleading. He's looking to get the younger crowd, and, unfortunately too many of them have the attention span of a "tweet".

You have to listen and read him to get the full scope of his tweets. Being one of my senators, I do see and hear a bit more of him than the average American.
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Aaron747
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 12:01 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
If I were Mr. Cook I'd have told the senators to go screw themselves.

Tim Cook has bigger fish to fry. If anything, he turned it around on them on the sly by getting them to admit their policies were inconsistent to close the hearing.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The main problem here is that the US government has developed a level of greed unmatched in any country that I can think of. Not only does it want to tax activity within the US, but it also wants to tax activity outside the US. US citizens living and working overseas continue to have to pay taxes, even though they are already taxed locally. And they want to tax US-owned companies the same way. Fortunately there exists a provision that essentially differs any such taxes as long as the money is not repatriated.

  

It's ridiculous. These people wouldn't know common sense if it slapped them with an open palm.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 11):

I have a strange feeling that if this corporation wasn't "Apple" a lot of people would be calling this company a corrupt, shady organization.

Actually Cook used the hearing to take a swipe at other types of businesses that have been called before the Hill. And his point is valid. Apple is a real company, making real products, with real R&D costs, sold around the world. As opposed to other businesses that simply come up with more and more complex "products" for trading/manipulating monetary figures from one to the other.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
It is well financed by political contributions (which is why it is around 72,000 pages long) and any changes will only be with the approval of the wealthy (individual & business) in the country.

Tim Cook's total compensation was nearly $400 million in 2011 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 12:10 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):

...from those who have no business taking any of it.

Of the people, by the people, for the people. It's government. Not business. There is a big difference.

As I said before, the Government's laws allow this money to be legally out there. I just think that policies need to change about that money.
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 12:25 am

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
Why not? Corporations use and require the same facilities that people do. Corporations can deduct their expenses, but if they are turning a profit, they should be subject to taxes, just as anyone who invests and gets a return does.

Corporations do not use facilities. People do. Corporations are nothing but real people doing business. Working, owning or being customers. If shareholders want to pay to widen some roads, let them pay. If you want to tax them, tax them.

Taxing a corporation is no different from taxing a nonprofit. Or taxing the government of Louisiana. You're just adding a cost there because you can get away with it.

I don't question why govt wants to tax corporations. Govt is filled with bureaucrats and lackeys who become wealthy by taxing people and reallocating billions, or even trillions of dollars. I am only pointing out how unfair corporate tax is, at the international level (Apple pays lower taxes than your local hardware store). And how morally speaking, taxing corporations, but not prisons, or public schools, or other human activities does not necessarily make automatic sense.

If people make iPhones, and pay investors, employees, delighting customers, I am not sure why you should tax that umbrella of activity (keeping in mind, investors will be taxed AGAIN on their personal receipt of those profits).
 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 12:58 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
There shouldn't even be corporate taxes in the first place.

Why not? Corporations re the first to take advantage of the infrastructure developed by governments. They also are first in line when a potential government contract comes up.

And, of course, you need to pave taxes to pay before you can have your tax credits - like the $400 Billion credit for the oil industry.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
Apple is taking advantage of laws that exist to hide profits.

Apple has some very talented tax people, but they still pay some of the biggest tax bills in the country - if not the biggest. While they may maximize their tax benefits they are still paying a healthy percentage at 30%.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 22):
I'm guessing his income hasn't gone up in a long time.

He's doing OK.  
Quoting aaron747 (Reply 23):
Tim Cook's total compensation was nearly $400 million in 2011 

How much of that was in shares?
 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 1:25 am

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
How much of that was in shares?

The vast majority:

http://www.businessinsider.com/tim-c...ion-for-2011-is-400-million-2012-1

Apple's executive salaries are pretty modest considering what their balance sheets look like. Their financial management is top-notch.
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Ken777
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 3:14 am

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 27):
Apple's executive salaries are pretty modest considering what their balance sheets look like.

The big chunk of his shares are designed to keep him with the company through 2021. That approach is an effective one for Apple as it makes it difficult for other companies to take execs away. It is also why JCP paid out over $50 million to take Johnson away from Apple - they had to cover all share rights.
 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 3:32 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 13):
It's not vilifying American companies - Apple's doing nothing wrong. It's vilifying the people who put the tax code together (i.e. Congress and their various lobbyists).

The end result is that some politicians are going to have to convince the American people that Apple and other large companies are holding onto their money. Never mind that it isn't really theirs...

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
You think the oil companies would let that cash handout go for "lower rates"? Not a chance.

I wouldn't either. Somehow those lower rates in return for giving up loopholes might not materialize, especially given how much some people want more revenue for the government.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
It provides the business environment that allows businesses to function. For that it becomes a (generally) silent partner.

That's the ass backwards way to look at it. The government isn't a partner, the government just provides a service. Less of a shareholder and more of the guy who delivers the water jugs.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
Geez, that is just what we need to kill permanently off the middle class.

You obviously do not understand the FairTax scheme. It could, in theory, become regressive but in practice would almost certainly not be.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
(1) kill of the tax credits (cash handouts) they receive,

Why do you need tax credits when there's no tax to pay in the first place?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
(2) increase taxes for most Americans, thus reducing their ability to sell their products in the US

Companies could also see an increase in profits or lower the cost of their products since they'd be left without tax burdens. Of course, all corporate taxes are ultimately paid by the public anyway.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 20):
Apple is taking advantage of laws that exist to hide profits.

They aren't hiding them. They're just putting them where the government can't skim it.
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QFA380
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 6:45 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
You obviously do not understand the FairTax scheme. It could, in theory, become regressive but in practice would almost certainly not be.

It almost certainly would be regressive. It is much easier to avoid consumption taxes than it is to avoid income taxes. Large consumption taxes promote the growth in the black market, if the opportunity cost of avoiding it may be only 20% in lower quality, risk of getting caught etc but the tax is 23% why would anyone legitimately purchase it?

There are a myriad of ways to avoid consumption taxes that are more difficult to detect than income tax avoidance. What is to stop a young couple recently engaged from purchasing rings in Hong Kong, say $50000 all up. $10000 is airfares but the FairTax is 23% in the US. The young couple is essentially getting a free holiday, there is no way the government can prove that they bought the rings in Hong Kong.

Here in Australia we don't pay GST on imports less than a $1000. If I buy a $1800 camera from Hong Kong, I can ask the seller to place it in two boxes, lens, battery etc in one and body in another and mark each as $900. That is $180 in tax I just avoided perfectly legally that I would've paid if I bought from a shop here.

The higher the consumption tax is the less people will be willing to pay it and funnily enough it will be the rich who are making big purchases who are most able to avoid the tax (in the aforementioned example, its not worth it for a couple spending $10000 on rings to travel to buy them).

Then there is the 'cash economy', nothing is stopping you or your builder from exchanging at a lower price is it is cash,

Economists (and amateurs such as myself) all agree that consumption taxes offer the lowest deadweight loss however they are the easiest to avoid, pragmatically one large consumption tax is an horrific idea. The economists that I've been taught by unanimously agree that a consumption tax is regressive.

My opinion on an optimal tax, highly progressive income tax with no corporate tax and a small consumption tax (10% works reasonably well for us). Boom for small business, naturally big businesses such as Apple would never want company tax abolished because compliance helps keep the little guys down who can't afford to utilise the loopholes, exemptions, depreciation and offshoring.
 
BMI727
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 7:08 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 30):
What is to stop a young couple recently engaged from purchasing rings in Hong Kong, say $50000 all up.

Besides the fact that they cost $50k? (Seriously, no girl is worth that. Buy the $10k ring and a slightly used Corvette) There is customs. I'm not saying that there would have to be no enforcement, but even if it can sometimes be avoided it's much easier to collect also.

Of course, some level of tax evasion is good I think. On a basic level, that is an effective feedback mechanism to keep taxes low. It would be awful if the government were always rewarded for raising taxes. Having money slip through, making the government go to great efforts to actually collect the additional taxes and competition among tax jurisdictions, is good reason to keep it lower.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 30):
Then there is the 'cash economy', nothing is stopping you or your builder from exchanging at a lower price is it is cash,

The cash economy can be just as easily accessed by the poor. Plenty of hustlers can work under the radar. FairTax provides fair opportunity for everyone to try and game the system.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 30):
My opinion on an optimal tax, highly progressive income tax with no corporate tax and a small consumption tax (10% works reasonably well for us).

If you're going to have an income tax, there should be no consumption tax except for specific funds such as a gas tax to maintain roads. (And no, that doesn't include sin taxes just because the government doesn't like something)
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QFA380
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 8:11 am

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
Seriously, no girl is worth that.

I wholeheartedly agree however plenty of people disagree and it stands as a simple example of how easy it would be to avoid your consumption tax.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
FairTax provides fair opportunity for everyone to try and game the system.

That seems to have worked well for everyone in Greece. If people see others getting away with cheating, they'll do the same. How is creating a system from the outset that you know will be gamed a good idea?

The UK has an estimated VAT gap of around 10%, that is on a lower rate in a less tax hostile country. I'd imagine in the US it would be substantially higher.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
There is customs.

Would you trust customs/TSA with a record of everything you've ever purchased to prove you paid tax? I'm sure you'd enjoy paying an extra 13% on souvenirs at the border for your relatives if you had just visited Australia.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 31):
On a basic level, that is an effective feedback mechanism to keep taxes low.

Along the same lines, more murders are an effective feedback mechanism that the death penalty is too severe.
 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 8:23 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 32):
How is creating a system from the outset that you know will be gamed a good idea?

Keeping tax increases from being free money is a good thing. Capitalism always wins, so it's preferable to have a system where it wins by TKO rather than having a full out slug fest with liberals trying to take their cut.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 32):
Would you trust customs/TSA with a record of everything you've ever purchased to prove you paid tax?

Not at all, which is why I'd strongly favor a loose customs system that allows for tax competition. Connecting higher taxes to a loss of domestic business and tax revenue is a good reason to keep taxes low. Businesses will hate higher taxes if it will drive their customers offshore.
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Dreadnought
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 8:23 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 30):
Economists (and amateurs such as myself) all agree that consumption taxes offer the lowest deadweight loss however they are the easiest to avoid, pragmatically one large consumption tax is an horrific idea. The economists that I've been taught by unanimously agree that a consumption tax is regressive.

It all depends of the level of taxation. People will certainly bend over backwards to evade a 20% tax, but not so much for a 5% or 10% tax.

It is the same with income tax. 20%, people will be generally OK with it. 40%, 50%, you start getting tax evasion problems.

If companies such as Apple (and they are certainly not alone) are working so hard to avoid a huge tax bill, that is a big waving flag that we are trying to tax them too much.

Lower taxation = greater compliance, more consistent revenue.

Higher taxation = evasion, greater enforcement problems, inconsistent revenue (based on when/where you catch people - ask the Italians)

Most successful countries use a blend of taxation - VAT and Income tax, and try to keep both at a level acceptable enough to avoid compliance problems.

In any case, IMHO repatriation of foreign profits should never, ever be taxed, except maybe at a token level (like 5%). It's free money for the economy.

As for consumption taxes being regressive, that is a term used by propagandists, and unfortunately has found its way into common speech. Much like the term "Progressive", which gives the idea of progress, advancement, improvement. Who doesn't want those things? The propaganda value of language has been a hallmark of statists and progressives for over a century - but I digress...

The fact of the matter is that in the US:
- you have nearly 50% of the population that pays virtually no taxes (I'm talking about the general fund, not SSA, FICA etc),
- Corporate tax revenue is highly volatile. In a recession, companies make losses and there is nothing to tax. In boom years things look rosier than they really are (exactly what happened during the dot.com boom in the late 90s)
- You have the top 10% of the population paying over 70% of all taxes. The top 1% pay 37% of all taxes. Quite apart from their attempts at evading taxes, people need to realize that this income base is, like Corporate tax revenue, highly volatile. as the huge incomes of this top 1% go up and down drastically. Illustration: The 37% I quoted was in 2009 - a bad year with income tax revenue already down across the board. Two years earlier they paid 41% of a much higher overall base.

A flat consumption tax, which I agree hits the poor rather more than others, combined with a graduated income tax, is really the fairest solution of all. Personally for the US, I think a 10% national VAT plus a graduated income tax (maximum rate of 20-25%, with very limited deductions) would be fair. EVERYONE would pay their fair share.

And yes, even the poor need to pay a little something to the Fed. The VAT would take care of that.
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offloaded
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 30):

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
It all depends of the level of taxation. People will certainly bend over backwards to evade a 20% tax, but not so much for a 5% or 10% tax.

It is the same with income tax. 20%, people will be generally OK with it. 40%, 50%, you start getting tax evasion problems.

And this logic is utterly lost here in Portugal. Our VAT rate is 23% for starters. The government doesn't get it, literally. The higher taxes go, the less money they are getting as more people leave the system. Then tax revenues go down, so they put taxes up again. I'm sure all of this latest bailout deal and how much money they were going to get looked great when submitted to Ms. Merkel, but the reality is that things aren't working out like that at all, and now a second bailout is being discussed.

Governments want too many slices of the pie. If Ireland has very low corporation tax and it is legal to do what they do, then good for Apple. Ditto Google, Starbucks etc. Part of the problem is that half our politicians are career politicians, or people doing seamless transactions from union officials to MPs etc. Where are the entrepreneurs, the risk takers, business leaders and wealth creators?
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting offloaded (Reply 35):
If Ireland has very low corporation tax and it is legal to do what they do, then good for Apple.

Ireland seems to be getting hit by these scandals. They have to answer to the EU at a summit today . I'm sure the pressure will be on Ireland to increase these tax rates. The EU has been trying to get Ireland to do this for years. So far successive Irish governments have resisted but I cant see them lasting for long until they have to give in.
 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 11:14 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
These are profits from overseas operations. Not US sales. There is no "loophole at work here, this is very basic Tax Territoriality. A state taxes economic activity that takes place within its borders. The US taxes Honda on cars it sells here. France will tax Apple's business activities in France.

If it only were that easy.

Apple does the bulk of their European operations through Ireland and even the Apple store network in each country post minimal profits as the bulk are shifted to Ireland.

Apple in France actually posted a loss in 2012, despite record sales.

It's a longish read, but it's explained here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...tax-loophole-idUSBRE94L00S20130522
 
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 11:43 am

That's one of the problems I have with the wonderous EU. It's always lowest common denominator, or in the case of taxes, highest common denominator.

If Ireland is forced to raise tax that will likely lead to less revenue.

Eventually the whole of Europe will be so uncompetitive, or as my Irish clients say to me: "Will that be cash or VAT?"
To no one will we sell, or deny, or delay, right or justice - Magna Carta, 1215
 
QFA380
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 11:45 am

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
It all depends of the level of taxation. People will certainly bend over backwards to evade a 20% tax, but not so much for a 5% or 10% tax.

I agree, and wrote as much.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 30):
small consumption tax (10% works reasonably well for us)
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
Keeping tax increases from being free money is a good thing. Capitalism always wins, so it's preferable to have a system where it wins by TKO rather than having a full out slug fest with liberals trying to take their cut.

You're destroying your own argument. You're saying 'this model of taxation is better than the current model (FairTax)' while simultaneously saying that a necessarily high one to pay for all government expenditure will force tax competition, which the US will lose.

Ireland wins in corporate taxes because they're lower, I'd bet plenty of money however that Irish people travel to the US to make purchases though because they have a VAT of 23%.

You can't just eliminate every single tax stream unless you want no government, which is completely different argument.
 
Boeing717200
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 12:52 pm

Quoting fr8mech (Thread starter):

The called Apple on the carpet to shame them. That's the MO lately. You are rich. You suck. You should be shamed in public.

Pathetic the government thinks its appropriate to do this. Maybe it's time for the government to downsize because its clearly too big for its britches.

[Edited 2013-05-22 05:55:57]
 
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Revelation
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 12:59 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Fortunately there exists a provision that essentially differs any such taxes as long as the money is not repatriated.

And indeed that's the downfall of the 'double Irish': you avoid a lot of taxes, but your money ends up in an offshore corporation where it's not particularly useful to you. That's how you end up with Apple saying they have $142B in the bank but when they try to use it to pay $100B of dividends they start to whine about taxes upon repatriation.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 35):
Governments want too many slices of the pie. If Ireland has very low corporation tax and it is legal to do what they do, then good for Apple. Ditto Google, Starbucks etc.

Ireland's problem is that they (a) aren't really getting much from this and (b) they are vulnerable to the loophole being closed and/or retaliatory measures.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 36):
I'm sure the pressure will be on Ireland to increase these tax rates

The low tax rate is only aspect of the Apple gimmick (yes, Mr. Cook, this is a gimmick!), the unique one is Irish law allowing a corporation registered in Ireland but managed from outside Ireland to pay no Irish tax. Combine that with the US law that states a corporation is taxed based on its place of registration, you end up with a corporation that resides in Ireland and is directed from the US that pays no taxes to either.

Three of the five Apple corporations registered in Ireland are set up this way. The other two seem to be set up along the traditional "double Irish" lines.

Bottom line is all Ireland gets out of this is an office building or two filled with a few dozen managers, accountants, lawyers and secretaries, and a pittance of tax, and now a lot of pissed off trading partners.
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Mir
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 1:55 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
- You have the top 10% of the population paying over 70% of all taxes. The top 1% pay 37% of all taxes.

Since the top 10% holds 77% of the net worth in the country, and the top 1% holds 35% of it (those are 2010 numbers), that doesn't strike me as so out of line.

Quoting Boeing717200 (Reply 40):
The called Apple on the carpet to shame them. That's the MO lately. You are rich. You suck. You should be shamed in public.

The fact that they're rich has nothing to do with it. The government is broke and it keeps having to cut stuff that people legitimately need, and one of the reasons (though not the only reason) it has to do that is that there isn't enough revenue coming in, and one of the reasons there isn't enough revenue coming in is because certain people and/or companies use accounting tricks and offshoring to get out of paying tax.

It's not illegal, but it is the moral equivalent of farting in an elevator (which isn't illegal either). And since we have no problem shaming people who do one of those things, I don't see why we should have any problem shaming people who do the other.

-Mir
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Flighty
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 26):
Corporations re the first to take advantage of the infrastructure developed by governments.

Really? Who's to say nonprofits, churches or schools aren't the first?

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
The government is broke and it keeps having to cut stuff that people legitimately need, and one of the reasons (though not the only reason) it has to do that is that there isn't enough revenue coming in

The government has never been richer or more powerful. If they can't make do on 7 trillion dollars (state+local+federal) or 6 trillion in revenue, they are dishonest fools (but we knew that). Their contempt for any non-government activity couldn't be clearer.

My worry isn't the incentives facing corporate executives. It's the incentives facing far more powerful public-sector executives.

[Edited 2013-05-22 07:59:17]
 
StarAC17
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 3:14 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Apple needs to tap some of the $102B it has oversees (of its total $145B hoard) to pay the $100B in dividends it's promised to its stockholders, yet repatriating it will cause it to be taxed.

Aren't they borrowing at near 0% interest to pay those dividends?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 29):
I wouldn't either. Somehow those lower rates in return for giving up loopholes might not materialize, especially given how much some people want more revenue for the government.

This is proposed by the Republicans, perhaps its rhetoric but it is one of the best things that they say.
Corporations will still lobby for loopholes but a simplified tax code with a lower rate is a good thing and it would make the IRS far more efficient because they do not have to go through a return like Mitt Romney's (just an example) with a toothcomb to see if there is anything that warrants an audit.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
You have the top 10% of the population paying over 70% of all taxes. The top 1% pay 37% of all taxes.
Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
- You have the top 10% of the population paying over 70% of all taxes. The top 1% pay 37% of all taxes.

Since the top 10% holds 77% of the net worth in the country, and the top 1% holds 35% of it (those are 2010 numbers), that doesn't strike me as so out of line.

I agree.

The best example though is income and not worth as worth can add up over years which has already been taxed.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Personally for the US, I think a 10% national VAT plus a graduated income tax (maximum rate of 20-25%, with very limited deductions) would be fair. EVERYONE would pay their fair share.

  
However I think you will find as BMI said that this will be difficult as you will have people and businesses supporting this publicly but really want the status quo because they can get away with paying much lower rates with the loopholes.

I think you have said before a tax return shouldn't be more than a page and I agree.
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Revelation
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 4:11 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
And since we have no problem shaming people who do one of those things, I don't see why we should have any problem shaming people who do the other.

The job of Senators is to legislate. The sad part of this 'event' is that no Senator suggested what changes they'd make to the law to get corporations to pay their fair share of the tax burden (at least as far as I was able to find).

I did hear the conservatives say they wouldn't change anything till they could change everything, which in effect is saying that nothing will change because there is no consensus on what to change, even amongst themselves.

Thus the conservatives get to bash the current tax system, which everyone agrees sucks, without upsetting all the lobbyists / special interests who are the ones that fund political campaigns and also are the major source of the complexity of the current tax laws.

Let's be clear: the tax system isn't a mess because individuals have made it so. The rules for us are relatively straight forward. The system is a mess because corporations and special interests use both lobbying and court challenges to get things they way they want them.
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BMI727
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
It is the same with income tax. 20%, people will be generally OK with it. 40%, 50%, you start getting tax evasion problems.

Most people don't care so much about income tax because it's something that happens to other people rather than them.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
Most successful countries use a blend of taxation - VAT and Income tax, and try to keep both at a level acceptable enough to avoid compliance problems.

Most of those countries also have rather high taxes.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 34):
As for consumption taxes being regressive, that is a term used by propagandists, and unfortunately has found its way into common speech.

A little regressive taxation wouldn't be the worst thing considering how many Americans pay nothing. It's easy to be in favor of high taxes when you are almost completely a taker.

Quoting offloaded (Reply 35):
Governments want too many slices of the pie.

That's exactly why I think the fork should get heavier.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 39):
You're saying 'this model of taxation is better than the current model (FairTax)' while simultaneously saying that a necessarily high one to pay for all government expenditure will force tax competition, which the US will lose.

Unless of course you reign in social spending and replace at least some of it with educational improvements which might actually pay off.

Quoting Mir (Reply 42):
Since the top 10% holds 77% of the net worth in the country, and the top 1% holds 35% of it (those are 2010 numbers), that doesn't strike me as so out of line.

They don't hold 77% or 35% of votes though. The result is much of the country playing with somebody else's chips.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 44):
Corporations will still lobby for loopholes but a simplified tax code with a lower rate is a good thing

...until some politician decides he wants to turn trailer trash into apartment trash and gets a tax increase to pay for it.
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StarAC17
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 5:03 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
They don't hold 77% or 35% of votes though. The result is much of the country playing with somebody else's chips.

That thinking is how democracy fails. If you let ten percent of the people control how the direction of a country goes then they enact things that serve them only and this will lead to a revolution.

The United States was founded rebelling against this very thing.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
...until some politician decides he wants to turn trailer trash into apartment trash and gets a tax increase to pay for it.

Then that politician should be shown the door.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
Most people don't care so much about income tax because it's something that happens to other people rather than them.

It may not be the case in the United States but in most developed countries if you work you pay taxes, even in the US you pay state and local taxes as well as payroll taxes even if you pay no federal tax.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 46):
Most of those countries also have rather high taxes.

High taxes do not mean that a country will not be successful and most developed countries have high taxes and that is why people rush to immigrate to them.
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fr8mech
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 5:21 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 45):
The sad part of this 'event' is that no Senator suggested what changes they'd make to the law to get corporations to pay their fair share of the tax burden (at least as far as I was able to find).

You assume, with your statement that corporations do not pay their "fair share".

I do believe I heard Rand Paul make a suggestion or two.
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BMI727
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RE: Apple Called To Senate To Explain Taxes

Wed May 22, 2013 5:32 pm

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 47):
That thinking is how democracy fails. If you let ten percent of the people control how the direction of a country goes then they enact things that serve them only and this will lead to a revolution.

A lot of the country pays very little in federal taxes. They still get control of the government as much as anyone. Getting the rest of the country to put a skin in the game and actually have to pay for what they vote on would be a good idea. It's too easy to spend when it's somebody else's money.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 47):
Then that politician should be shown the door.

Or the podium at the Democratic National Convention.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 47):
High taxes do not mean that a country will not be successful and most developed countries have high taxes and that is why people rush to immigrate to them.

It's free stuff for them. The simple issue is that the government is a service provider and shouldn't be redistributing wealth.
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