AA7295
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I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:49 am

I have the most beautiful dog.. he just adores me and will be by my side at all times. He truly is the best companion.

In the past 18 months or so I have been having a real hard time eating meat. Like I eat meat and enjoy the taste, but I sometimes feel bad because I know my dog has a soul, how can I not know that a cow, or a chicken doesn't have a soul?

The crazy thing is... I fully realize that meat is part of the circle of life, and I do enjoy eating it.

I guess I'm wondering for a way to feel comfortable eating meat.
 
QFA380
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:07 am

I think it important to think about how the animals you eat were raised and slaughtered. Looking for ethically raised meat may put your mind at ease now the cow at least had a good life and finished it easily just as you wish to provide a good life for your dog even though the chances are pretty high that one day you'll have to make the decision to end his life. The difference between your dog and that cow is that your dogs purpose comes while he's alive (to be a companion), while the cows comes after it dies.

Sounds almost like you're question the ethics of death in general though. I suggest you read The Omnivores Dilemma, it goes through nicely how it is possible (and perhaps moral) to eat meat. Read up on how the animals are killed, one of the biggest problems I think we have in the west is how detached we are from our food.
 
TSS
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:13 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
one of the biggest problems I think we have in the west is how detached we are from our food.

Absolutely. Spend a lot of time around live cows and chickens and you'll feel considerably less bad about eating them.
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garpd
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:55 am

I think the others are correct. Known where your food comes from is always good to know. It gives me peace of mind.

Here in the UK, 100% of British beef is farm raised, grazed on open fields. The cows have a good life and every need is tended to. We do not keep the cows in a shed confined to a cage barely big enough for them for their entire life.
When it comes to the slaughter, they are kept comfortable on the journey and led one by one in to an isolated room where death comes as instantly as is practical. (Bolt through a specific part of the brain generally). The cows next in line cannot see or hear anything of it due to doors.
As a result of this, I'm quite comfortable in eating British beef products and go out of my way to make sure the product I'm buying is 100% British beef.

Our milk comes from Cows who enjoy the same freedom as the meat herds.

I know there are still a few cage farms for poultry, I avoid products from these sources like the plague. I will not even buy eggs from caged hens. (UK Law stipulates the source MUST be clearly marked).

AFAIK, our Lamb and Pork comes from 100% free range too. So again, no issues there. The slaughter is exactly as described above for them too.

All in all, if you're at peace with the live your food led before it ended up on your plate, you should be comfortable in eating it.
If that doesn't, think of it this way: The animal will have been killed regardless if you eat it or not. Don't let it's sacrifice go to waste.
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AA7295
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:03 am

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Read up on how the animals are killed, one of the biggest problems I think we have in the west is how detached we are from our food.

What do you mean? I'm assuming you mean how the animals are put down? That isn't always enforced, and certainly doesn't go on in all parts of the world.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Sounds almost like you're question the ethics of death in general though.

Maybe....

Quoting TSS (Reply 2):
Absolutely. Spend a lot of time around live cows and chickens and you'll feel considerably less bad about eating them.

How come? What do they do that's so bad?
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:05 am

I live in a part of the world where they eat dog. And, like you, I see no real ethical distinction between eating a dog or a cow. I certainly do not get on my moral high horse with the Chinese about their eating habits just because we n the west happen to have a history of making dogs our companions.

I a also an animal lover but do love eating meat, and doubt I would ever give up for ethical reasons. Either I am too shallow or too selfish.
 
na
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:31 am

Quoting TSS (Reply 2):
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
one of the biggest problems I think we have in the west is how detached we are from our food.

Absolutely. Spend a lot of time around live cows and chickens and you'll feel considerably less bad about eating them.

I absolutely agree with that, having been raised on a farm. I grew up with their living conditions, I have been to slaughterhouses etc. Not nice, but thats part of the world and there´s basically nothing wrong with it if no unnecessary cruelty is involved. Humans, like many animals have eaten meat as long as they exist. Nothing wrong with that. Its the influence of the fineries of culture of the rich countries which is causing trouble now.

I am not a big meat eater btw, maybe twice a week.
 
idealstandard
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:37 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
Here in the UK, 100% of British beef is farm raised, grazed on open fields. The cows have a good life and every need is tended to. We do not keep the cows in a shed confined to a cage barely big enough for them for their entire life.
When it comes to the slaughter, they are kept comfortable on the journey and led one by one in to an isolated room where death comes as instantly as is practical.

Yeah, unless it's a horse...!

Pork is not always free range.
 
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autothrust
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 11:57 am

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 5):

I live in a part of the world where they eat dog. And, like you, I see no real ethical distinction between eating a dog or a cow.

That's in my opinion really bad, but even in Switzerland they eat sometimes dogs and a lot of horses.

What makes a dog or cat, horse different then a cow.... the reason this animals are friends of humans want to serve the humans and help.

Many dogs have saved in the past humans.

A dog or cat trust you totally, when harming them you are abusing their trust. And for me thats very cruel und honorless.

While i'm not totally a vegetarian i reduced my meat consumption to a minimum. Because i cannot support the meat industry and how the animals are treated.

If you want other reasoning, meat isn't as healthy as most people think. For example sausage or meat are really bad for health when grilled to much.

New study's show a decrease of lifespan when consuming to much grilled meat.

When you have cancer it's not favorable to eat meat.

Also a other reason to not eat meat, if you don't consume eat for a half year thats a saving in CO2 that you could drive 28000km with your car.

Also the majority of all global warming gases are attributed to the massive stocks of cows and pigs.

So to sum it up, neither meat is healthy for yourself nor for the enviroment and its ethically very questionable.


Some will say meat contains a lot of minerals and vitamines, all what meat offers can be found in other products.

As a person who has a massive shortcoming of iron in the blood, my doctors told me i could eat as much meat as i want i would never be capable to cover my deficit with meat.

[Edited 2013-06-12 04:58:24]
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DFWHeavy
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:07 pm

Sorry autothrust,

There is nothing in the least unethical or wrong about eating meat. If we didn't eat them, they would still be around grazing, passing gas and "hurting the environment"...so don't go there with this.

Animals eat meat, humans have eaten meat since the beginning of time. It didn't just become unethical, immoral or wrong all of a sudden.

People, eat as much meat as you want and do not feel bad about it.
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rabenschlag
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:15 pm

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 9):
Animals eat meat, humans have eaten meat since the beginning of time. It didn't just become unethical, immoral or wrong all of a sudden.

That does not really convince me. "Humans have killed and raped humans since the beginning of time." Does that make it moral to kill and rape fellow humans? I do not think so. It is called the naturalistic fallacy - natural facts cannot be translated into moral oughts. And therefore I think it is 100% irrelevant what humans have done in the past or what animals do in terms of eating meat when it comes to the question whether eating meat is ethically defensible for humans.

My recommendation for the TO:

* Do some research in ethics. There are many ethical systems in philosophy with very different practical implications.
* Decide which one sounds most convincing to you
* Live by standards of the most convincing system (including eating meat/not eating meat)

Cheers, r.
 
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autothrust
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:15 pm

The ethical side is the treatment and slaughtering not the eating. And btw the earth belongs not only to us, animals have also rights to graze or passing gas.

But without the massive breeding caused by humans to cover the demand of meat they would in no way hurt the enviroment.

Do you think if humans wouldn't have interfered with that animals there would be such a high number of stocks? (which go to the hundreds of millions of cows and other animals?
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QFA380
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:36 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4):
What do you mean? I'm assuming you mean how the animals are put down? That isn't always enforced, and certainly doesn't go on in all parts of the world.

You're lucky enough to live in Australia where it is enforced, by both government and non-government organisations. I wouldn't know what to say to you if you base your decision on whether to eat Australian meat, slaughtered to Australian standards, on how animals are treated in Iran or Mozambique.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 11):
animals have also rights to graze or passing gas.
Quoting autothrust (Reply 8):
if you don't consume eat for a half year thats a saving in CO2 that you could drive 28000km with your car.

These two points are incoherent. You can't in one sentence say that I the meat eater am responsible for the environmental impact of animals I eat while also saying the animal has a right to graze and pass gas all it wants.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 8):
Also the majority of all global warming gases are attributed to the massive stocks of cows and pigs.

Completely and utterly false.
http://www.epa.gov/climatechange/ghgemissions/sources.html
http://www.carbonneutral.com.au/clim...e-change/australian-emissions.html

I won't bother with your other claims related to many studies that a 17 year old science student could rip to shreds.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:47 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
one of the biggest problems I think we have in the west is how detached we are from our food.

I guess this is true of so many areas of life. Given that increasingly most people live in cities there is a separation between what we produce and what we consume.

Who really pays much attention to how the meat ends up in the butcher shop, supermarket or fast-food outlet? The same applies to fruit and vegetables. It may look nice laid out on the display counter. But is it really fresh? Does it come from cold-storage; was it irradiated; are the workers in the fields enjoying a lifestyle similar to our own? All we think about is there is food and we need to eat. In the same way, who asks about where or how an electronic device or an article of clothing is made? We convince ourselves of a need for the latest device or fashion-wear and are blissfully unaware of the conditions of labour under which it is made.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 8):
A dog or cat trust you totally,

Many animals that you feed on a regular basis will come to trust you, depending on how well you treat them the rest of the time. Pigs can make ideal pets, for example, and even when they are not pets they can be protective. I remember seeing a farmer striking a girl who had been tending to a boar, cleaning out its pen and scratching its back and the boar attacked the farmer.

I am puzzled by some of the ethical dilemmas that are sometimes raised. For example, people may protest against the Japanese catching whales yet happily eat cod or trout. Sure a whale is a mammal but all are animals and then the protester might head off to the Golden M and order a burger - made from another mammal.

But what will happen to animals that are no longer bred for slaughter? Sure people can switch their habits from eating meat to eating other nourishing foods and farmers, in areas of suitable soil and rainfall, can switch to different production. But the farmers will not let their land lie fallow, simply so that animals can graze. When that happens, the only place that most people will ever see non-milking cattle or pigs will be in a zoo.

I am not justifying eating a meat diet on that basis but pointing to a possible consequence. Food is a commodity and if a commodity doesn't sell (or doesn't sell at a profit) it doesn't get produced. We already see this with fruit being left to rot on the ground and wheat being ploughed back into the soil because the yield and/or price is too low to recover the cost of harvesting and distribution. At least with some breeds of sheep you can shear them for the wool so they might survive a general shift away from meat eating.
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autothrust
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:03 pm

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
These two points are incoherent. You can't in one sentence say that I the meat eater am responsible for the environmental impact of animals I eat while also saying the animal has a right to graze and pass gas all it wants.

Its not incoherent. Because we the consumers do provoke demand supply. If we reduce the demand, there will be less stocks. Which translates to less emissions. Again the amount of stocks would be million times lower without human intervention.

There are also indirect CO2 sources coming from breeding cows and pigs. Like thausend of acres forest clearances are done each year, or the million tons of feed necessary to build up this massive stocks around the planet.

So you nice statistics tell only half of the story. And they don't count in nothing about methane.
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Kiwirob
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:13 pm

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
When it comes to the slaughter, they are kept comfortable on the journey and led one by one in to an isolated room where death comes as instantly as is practical. (Bolt through a specific part of the brain generally). The cows next in line cannot see or hear anything of it due to doors.
Quoting QFA380 (Reply 12):
You're lucky enough to live in Australia where it is enforced, by both government and non-government organisations. I wouldn't know what to say to you if you base your decision on whether to eat Australian meat, slaughtered to Australian standards, on how animals are treated in Iran or Mozambique.

To the above two posts all well and good if the animal isn't being butchered for halal or kosha consumption then the standards for quick and clean slaughter goes out the window.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 14):
Because we the consumers do provoke demand supply. If we reduce the demand, there will be less stocks. Which translates to less emissions. Again the amount of stocks would be million times lower without human intervention.

The real problem is the planet has about 2-3 billion more people then it needs. We're slowly killing ourselves by overpopulation.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:51 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15):
halal or kosha consumption then the standards for quick and clean slaughter goes out the window.

It is one thing to adopt standards and another to enforce them. In many western countries it is a requirement that the animal be stunned before killing but that isn't always guaranteed because there is little oversight. A cow or sheep that is not stunned immediately will simply be given another "shot". Can we be assured that the animal is neither frightened or suffering at that stage?

Both kosher and halal require respect for the animal. This means that the animal should be killed in a way that results in rapid death. The animal must be killed so it feels little pain. A sharp knife is used to cut the oesophagus, the trachea, carotid arteries and jugular veins in one action. Excessive pressure on the blade is forbidden. The animal is raised so blood flows out and this is then covered with dirt. Failure to do any of these acts correctly means the animal is unfit to eat. Why would you kill something and lose the ability to consume it or sell it?

A trained slaughterman can kill quickly but there are no doubt instances where things may not go according to plan. While in some countries, in the absence of enforcement, another "go" my be attempted, under strict laws the killing will be both rapid and clean. In countries like Australia, the animal must remain in an upright position with the head and body restrained. The animal must be stunned with a captive-bolt pistol immediately after the throat is cut (known as ‘sticking’). Two separate people must perform the sticking and stunning. If there are any problems restraining the animal while attempting to stick it, then it must be stunned immediately.

For religious slaughter of sheep, the guideline requires cutting both the carotid arteries and the jugular veins. This must be confirmed and if they are not completely severed, then the animal must be immediately stunned.

In other countries the legal standards may differ but the general prescription is one of respect for lack of it renders the animal unfit for consumption. Such is the ideal, even if it is not always carried out in practice, anymore than you can guarantee that a cow in Europe does not transmogrify into a horse once it has been killed.
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Aaron747
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 2:35 pm

This is just one of those things that is best to think about as little as possible, if at all.

Kind of like how many people your partner has been with before you. Or why your birthday falls in September.
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WestJet747
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 4:43 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I have the most beautiful dog.. he just adores me and will be by my side at all times. He truly is the best companion.

I, too, have a dog who I consider my best friend (a beagle named Copper). But never in the 10 years I've had her have I ever compared her to the animals I consume. I find that notion extremely confusing actually...

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 1):
Looking for ethically raised meat may put your mind at ease

We have a number of restaurants and fast-food joints around town that source locally and serve only organic. I tend to gravitate towards these places, not because of the ethical question, but I just find the food tastes better. Some of the best burgers I've ever had have come from a place by the university that gets all the ingredients they use from within an hour's drive. Helping the local economy is also a bonus.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 8):
A dog or cat trust you totally, when harming them you are abusing their trust. And for me thats very cruel und honorless.

Only if you have some sort of a relationship or bond with that particular animal.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 8):
Also a other reason to not eat meat, if you don't consume eat for a half year thats a saving in CO2 that you could drive 28000km with your car.

Can you post the source of that statistic to confirm? That number seems way too high.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 13):
I am puzzled by some of the ethical dilemmas that are sometimes raised. For example, people may protest against the Japanese catching whales yet happily eat cod or trout. Sure a whale is a mammal but all are animals and then the protester might head off to the Golden M and order a burger - made from another mammal.

You're making the comparison between eating animal X and animal Y, when the real dilemma lies in how one kills animal X and how one kills animal Y. There's a notable difference between rounding fish up in a net for a painless death, and clobbering a seal to death with a club. I understand that sometimes undesirable slaughtering must occur, such as in cases of communities in the arctic who practice subsistence whaling, but in general people will protest the unnecessary suffering of an animal (mammal or not).

Quoting aaron747 (Reply 17):
Kind of like how many people your partner has been with before you. Or why your birthday falls in September.

My birthday is in September   
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AyostoLeon
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:16 pm

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 18):
You're making the comparison between eating animal X and animal Y,

Yes of course, because everyone else does. Some eat cows but are disgusted by eating cats. Others eat horse but are disgusted by eating pigs. Some eat snails but would not eat locusts. Who can understand human sensibilities?

I did not actually mention seals and do we know that the death of fish is painless? Having never been asphyxiated and snap frozen, I don't know. In the case of private anglers, rather than commercial fisheries, yanking it out of the water with a hook penetrating it seems acceptable to many, without any requirement to snap freeze it before it is dead. So the fish not only suffers the pain of the wound by hooking but also the agony and fear of suffocation. Even in the commercial sphere we see the oddity of tins of tuna boasting to be "dolphin free". Again it is acceptable to kill some animals but not others. Is there any reason to believe the death of the tuna will be less painful than the death of the dolphins?

But if we accept killing some animals, on whatever grounds, then I can accept that we do it as humanely as possible. Would killing seals become more acceptable if they were stunned with an electric bolt first?
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AeroWesty
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:34 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 19):
Even in the commercial sphere we see the oddity of tins of tuna boasting to be "dolphin free". Again it is acceptable to kill some animals but not others. Is there any reason to believe the death of the tuna will be less painful than the death of the dolphins?

There is no oddity to the dolphin-safe label, it is quite logical. The dolphin-safe label only indicates that the by-catch contained no dolphins, as fishing methods were threatening the survival of entire species of dolphin, specifically in the Eastern Tropical Pacific.
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AyostoLeon
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 20):
There is no oddity to the dolphin-safe label

I see. Or rather, I don't.

We appear to be happy killing some stocks of fish to satisfy our dietary preferences but are against killing others (although dolphins are mammals). There have been arguments placed in favour of restrictions on fishing because it has been argued that current practices are not sustainable. So far the industry has been largely successful in limiting any controls. How far do you think that emotional arguments about dolphin species being mammalian and intelligent might have influenced listening to scientific data , free from emotional concerns, if at all?
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AeroWesty
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 21):
We appear to be happy killing some stocks of fish to satisfy our dietary preferences but are against killing others

Again, the huge Pacific tuna fleets were killing off entire dolphin species. It has little if anything to do with what pain sea creatures feel during fishing expeditions.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 21):
How far do you think that emotional arguments about dolphin species being mammalian and intelligent might have influenced listening to scientific data , free from emotional concerns, if at all?

A horse of a different color.

See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azEOeTX1LqM
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Flighty
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:46 pm

Totally with you, OP. Actually not only for the animals.

For the people. Meat is very inefficient. Requires huge amounts of crops & energy to create it. Also generally bad for your health! A vegetarian diet is superior in almost every way.

But, meat is something we are evolved to enjoy eating. Tough one.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:01 pm

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 22):
It has little if anything to do with what pain sea creatures feel during fishing expeditions.

That might suggest that the scientific data was paramount in determining farming practices, yet a lot of people are influenced more by emotional appeal than by scientific data.

What do you think of the following report?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...in-tuna-overfishing_n_2448967.html

The linked data suggests that current practices are not sustainable but there is no indication of either an effective international response or a general demand for change in current practices.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
WestJet747
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:02 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 19):
I did not actually mention seals
Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 19):
Would killing seals become more acceptable if they were stunned with an electric bolt first?

I'm aware you didn't mention seals, as I was using an example that I found particularly barbaric in order to make my point.

But yes, I would much rather the seal be incapacitated first. I'm not against seal hunting since it is necessary to avoid their numbers getting out of control, but I would of course prefer more efficient methods. I've always been curious why the hunters don't simply use one of those guns that they use on cows in slaughterhouses. It's quick, painless, and effortless, yet hunters would rather expend their energy clubbing seals all day.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 19):
do we know that the death of fish is painless?

Apparently it is hotly debated in the scientific community: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain_in_fish

There are studies that support both sides of the argument, so nobody can say for sure at this point.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 19):
So the fish not only suffers the pain of the wound by hooking but also the agony and fear of suffocation.

As mentioned above, it's likely they do not, but we aren't sure.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 19):
Even in the commercial sphere we see the oddity of tins of tuna boasting to be "dolphin free".

I'm not sure about over on your side of the world, but "dolphin-free tuna" is fairly commonplace in North America.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 19):
Again it is acceptable to kill some animals but not others. Is there any reason to believe the death of the tuna will be less painful than the death of the dolphins?

If one must kill an animal, then so be it, but as long as they use best practices when doing it.
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AeroWesty
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:24 pm

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 24):
What do you think of the following report?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0....html

No one should eat bluefin tuna until stocks have had a chance to recover, with a sustainable fishing plan put forward when they're ready to be fished again. I thought everyone was aware of the bluefin problem.
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cptkrell
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 12, 2013 9:02 pm

I was helping hook up a hay bailer for a young lady that lives over in the next holler this morning.

I asked her "Hey, Jenny-Fer (I call her that instead of Jennifer), "What's the deal with that three-legged pig you got at home?" She answered..."When you got a pig that tastes that good, you just can't eat him all at one time."

Anyhoo, aren't there theories that eating meat (= additional proteins) are partially a reason for the human brain becoming larger, more complex and therefore evolving a bit more rapidly (say, over herberverous apes?). I'm not a medical guy, but if really so, one would think that wolves and great cats would be pretty smart, eh? Don't care: I'll go cow over roots anytime.

I really enjoyed the pork roast, mashed potatoes and gravy wifey fixed up last night and am not in the least bothered about it (although it didn't come from Jenny-Fer's porky). Kind regards...jack
all best; jack
 
Bongodog1964
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:47 am

Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
Here in the UK, 100% of British beef is farm raised, grazed on open fields
Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
Our milk comes from Cows who enjoy the same freedom as the meat herds.
Quoting garpd (Reply 3):
AFAIK, our Lamb and Pork comes from 100% free range too

So far from the truth:

Much of our beef is dairy cross, milking cows bearing a calf to a beed bull, the calf is taken from its mother at birth, fed on milk powder then off to the feed lot
The remainder is from suckler cows who raise their calf "naturally". More or less all suckler beef though is fed intensively in the latter part of its life, thats how you get tender steaks, grass fed beef is often as tough as old boots.

Increasingly milking herds are being permanantly housed for a number of reasons, one is that as herds increase in size its impractical to send them out to graze as the grass is too far away, cheaper to cut the grass and bring it to them, and secondly the only effective answer to bovine TB is to keep cows locked up in a building safe from the infested badgers.

Some pork is free range, but once again there's a strong chance that the piglets will be housed for the feeding stage, and much of our "UK" pork is only processed here its been imported as carcasses from Europe.

Now for the good news, most of our lamb has spent nearly all its life out in the fields, as long as you avoid the bland stuff sold in April and May as "Spring Lamb" you should be ok Sring Lamb is an abomination fed to the gullible, born in the depths of winter, fed on protein pellets and less than three months from birth to death, all of it probably spent indoors. Meanwhile you can buy far superior lamb from Northern hill flocks that has grazed for almost a year and developed some flavour.

As to the question how to feel good about eating meat, the answers simple a bacon sandwich, even devoted veggies find them hard to resist.
 
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zkojq
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:09 pm

My parents own a beef farm. The cows and bulls there have it pretty good. Nearly their entire lives are spent outside, there is plenty of space for them, there is a nice view (see the photo in my profile), they eat fresh grass - not hay or grain (though this does get used during droughts) and they are kept in good health. Once they go to the meatworks they are individually placed in a room, a technician gently wraps a fabric band (with electrodes in it) on/around their neck, the technician pushes a button and their existence is ended painlessly. Because of this I have very few ethical qualms about eating meat (well in this country anyway). This said, it is still a bit hard to see newborn young calves knowing that they will one day be dinner.

If the animal that you are eating has led a good life and died painlessly then there is nothing really wrong with eating meat. I'd love to be a cow and spend > 95% of my waking hours eating. On the other hand I find it repugnant when animals have been farmed in such a way that they can't even turn around (pig crates) or are in close confinement with tens of thousands of others (battery chickens). A couple of years ago I tried boycotting bacon due to the conditions underwhich most pigs in this country are raised. Bacon won - it just tastes too good.

Overseas things aren't so merry. All the cattle at my friend's grandparent's farm in Switzerland spend their entire lives indoors eating grain, which is incredibly sad. This is unfortunately common in Europe and North America. Last nights episode of TDS had a segment that highlighted various laws that attempt to stop the filming of animal rights abuses - also very disappointing. http://bit.ly/19uxH2Q http://nyti.ms/19uyctK

If you do feel guilty about eating meat, the best thing you can do is to waste as little of it as possible.

Quoting TSS (Reply 2):
Spend a lot of time around live cows and chickens and you'll feel considerably less bad about eating them.

   Cattle‎ smell bad. I very much dislike bulls - often they are nasty, aggressive creatures. I've come very close to being gored by them on several occasions. Cows are alright. I give both plenty of respect.

Quoting autothrust (Reply 8):
What makes a dog or cat, horse different then a cow

There is much, much more meat on a cow. It will feed many more people.  
Quoting autothrust (Reply 8):
Also a other reason to not eat meat, if you don't consume eat for a half year thats a saving in CO2 that you could drive 28000km with your car.

I'm not sure if this is true, however I do know that the same weight of poultry creates substantially less CO2 emissions per kilo than beef or mutton.

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 13):
I remember seeing a farmer striking a girl who had been tending to a boar, cleaning out its pen and scratching its back and the boar attacked the farmer.

Pigs can be quite dangerous.
http://www.ibtimes.com/oregon-man-ea...ound-pigs-kill-terry-garner-799007

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 13):
people may protest against the Japanese catching whales yet happily eat cod or trout.

The main issue with whaling is that they are killed with harpoons. The whales usually take half an hour to die and are in great pain while doing so.   If this wasn't the case, from an ethical standpoint at least, whale meat would be superior to that of everything else. The life of a Blue Whale could feed the same number of people as the lives of ~150,000 cod.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15):
The real problem is the planet has about 2-3 billion more people then it needs. We're slowly killing ourselves by overpopulation.

Sadly, yes.
First to fly the 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE (2014-10-09, NZ103)
 
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zckls04
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Thu Jun 13, 2013 7:21 pm

I advise eating meat because it's extremely tasty, with the following conditions:

- Know your butcher. Know where he gets his meat from. If he doesn't know exactly where its from get a new butcher. Know how long he hangs his meat for.
- Don't eat meat every day. It's unnatural and probably bad for you in the long run. Plus it's boring.
- Learn to cook well. If you're going to eat meat do it right. Buy a good cookbook.
- When you buy a piece of meat, eat it ALL. Don't dishonor the animal by throwing any of it away. Learn how to use every part. Make stock with the carcass etc.
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Kiwirob
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:44 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 28):
Meanwhile you can buy far superior lamb from Northern hill flocks that has grazed for almost a year and developed some flavour.

Or NZ lamb which is superior to pretty much anything else and is available in the UK, but sadly not in Norway, where we have to eat local which is tough as old boots.
 
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Aesma
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:21 pm

I have a cat, I love it and would probably not buy cat meat if I found it at the shop, but if visiting a place where they eat it I'd probably try. I don't think my cat has a soul, but again I don't believe in the concept of soul.

Quoting DFWHeavy (Reply 9):
There is nothing in the least unethical or wrong about eating meat. If we didn't eat them, they would still be around grazing, passing gas and "hurting the environment"...so don't go there with this.

You haven't thought about this much, have you ? Do you really think there would be as many cows, pigs and chickens in the US without man's intervention ?

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 21):
So far the industry has been largely successful in limiting any controls.

Not entirely, in Europe controls are in place, many fishing boats have been scrapped. Granted, most of these controls came after the industry caused its own doom with nothing left to fish.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
greasespot
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:07 am

Sorry I have no ethical qualms about meat.

I grew up on a large industrial scale cattle farm. I care about animals but care about people more.



Plus an organic diet costs a lot more. It is great when you have a good job to be able to buy it but when you are scraping by how do you afford it?

I do not believe a vegetation diet is superior. It's just a different diet.

So no I do not lose any sleep about farm animals and how they are raised and slaughtered. In fact I do not think of it when I am shopping.

I find that the west is very hypocritical when it comes to industrial scale farming. We want this change or that change and demand this for the betterment of the world. Well here, at least we produce enough food. In fact thanks to industrial farming we have a surplus that usually gets sent to places that do not. So if we cut out industrial farming we will be fine. But what about the places that do not have enough? So if we cannot make enough food with out industrial farms who chooses who lives and who dies?

gs
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
jetblueguy22
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:25 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
In the past 18 months or so I have been having a real hard time eating meat. Like I eat meat and enjoy the taste, but I sometimes feel bad because I know my dog has a soul, how can I not know that a cow, or a chicken doesn't have a soul?

The crazy thing is... I fully realize that meat is part of the circle of life, and I do enjoy eating it.

I guess I'm wondering for a way to feel comfortable eating meat.

While I don't personally own a dog, I adore my best friends' dachshund and shitzu. But the thing is I separate the animals. A dog or a cat is a companion. They are supposed to be your friend and to be loved. Yes livestock should be loved, but their purpose is much different. They are raised to be food. Maybe I just shut out the fact that they are both animals, but I don't have much concern about eating a cow or pig. Meat in moderation is a good and healthy thing. You can love your dog and still eat meat. Judging how my buddy's little dog Paris likes meat I think your dog will find little issue with it either!
But that's just me.
Pat
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Pellegrine
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:35 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):

I have the most beautiful dog.. he just adores me and will be by my side at all times. He truly is the best companion.

In the past 18 months or so I have been having a real hard time eating meat. Like I eat meat and enjoy the taste, but I sometimes feel bad because I know my dog has a soul, how can I not know that a cow, or a chicken doesn't have a soul?

The crazy thing is... I fully realize that meat is part of the circle of life, and I do enjoy eating it.

I guess I'm wondering for a way to feel comfortable eating meat.

Yes like someone else said look for ethically raised and slaughtered meat. Yeah it is more expensive. I've been pescetarian, sometimes vegetarian and vegan, for the past 13-14 years. Most of my family and bf eat/have eaten meat, hell I'll even cook it for them.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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Aesma
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:27 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 33):
But what about the places that do not have enough? So if we cannot make enough food with out industrial farms who chooses who lives and who dies?

It doesn't really work that way, many African countries import food when they could produce it themselves, because we (US and EU at least) flood their markets with subsidized food that we make too much of, competing with local farmers that lose out. We're part of the problem.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Kiwirob
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Fri Jun 14, 2013 1:14 pm

Quoting greasespot (Reply 33):
But what about the places that do not have enough? So if we cannot make enough food with out industrial farms who chooses who lives and who dies?

gs

Or maybe there are simply to many of us for this planet to sustain and losing a couple billion will make it better for the rest of us.
 
cptkrell
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:22 am

I think I'll go with KiwiRob's comment (his Rep 37). Whereas some peoples would consider it anywhere between disgusting and soul-less, one must consider the realistic mathematics.

Overpopulation (for a myriad of reasons) is an ever increasing problem in all areas of the planet. Simply put, if there is not some sort of population control via oommon sense (common sense is not common) , or via some sort of political mandate (heresy! heresy!) I guess we'll all just have to witness the starving tens of millions and say "well, ain't that just too bad".

Of course, if everybody just ate grass and roots, maybe that would be a non-meat utopian lifestyle diet. But then again, if so good and humans kept proliferating because of this non-animal protein diet we'd still have the same "too many of us" problem, no? regards..jack
all best; jack
 
romeobravo
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:53 am

If an animal could eat you (and serveral can and will) it would do so without hesitation.

You can always buy free range if you care about the animal's welfare.
 
photopilot
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:48 pm

Put a piece of meat down on a plate in front of your dog. Does the dog have any ethical issues with eating it? No.... good, then neither should you.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:46 am

I try to eat only KOSHER meat whenever I can. I know the standards are very high and the animal has not been mistreated or allowed to feel fear or suffer.

Years ago I gave up eating veal. I had read where they were sewing the little lambs eyes shut and putting them in very small pens where they couldn't move. That way the meat would be very tender.
That did it for me.
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
 
rabenschlag
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:37 pm

Quoting photopilot (Reply 40):
Put a piece of meat down on a plate in front of your dog. Does the dog have any ethical issues with eating it? No.... good, then neither should you

Not a valid conclusion. Here's why. Take this example that follows the same logic as your dog-and-meat example: "Put a baby-lion in front of the new dominant lion. Does the lion have any ethical issues with killing the baby lion? No... good, then neither should you have ethical issues with killing your step children". I hope you would not agree! Lions kill their step children, it's their selfish genes that makes them act like this. But does that mean that it would be ethical for humans to act the same way? Certainly not. We cannot conclude what is good or bad from observing what animals do.
 
AM744
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:18 pm

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I guess I'm wondering for a way to feel comfortable eating meat.

Eat meat moderately, drink moderately, burn fuel moderately. If it's legal, it's good to go in moderation. Lots of other stuff to worry about in health and society at large.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:37 pm

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 42):
I hope you would not agree! Lions kill their step children, it's their selfish genes that makes them act like this.

Look at history and you will find many examples. The Ottoman Empire used to see a number of killings and incarcerations to stabilise the transition from one alpha male to another. I have no doubt that it was justified on moral, ethical and legal grounds by those involved.

While humans generally will not eat their off-spring, that does not give any reason to assume any moral, ethical and legal justification for not eating meat. What a species does to its own is not necessarily a measure for interactions with other species.

If we look at nature we can find many examples of one species eating another and we can find many examples of same-species consumption. So, as you suggest, we can not justify, one way or another, what we do on the basis of what other species do.

Despite that, we can see that like other species some of the most violent acts are carried out against members of our own species. Most history books recount examples of barbarity of man to man, even glorifying it by extolling the exploits of Prince X and Duke Y, rather than examples of co-operation and efforts towards universal peace. So while it is true that we can not look at what other animals do to support our own moral or ethical construct, we never the less can see similarities in behaviour. We might baulk at the idea of eating Tiddles or Rover but have no problem with gassing Sarah or vaporising Kazumi. And if we can justify killing our next door neighbour, why baulk at eating a healthy meal?
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
Kiwirob
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:39 pm

Quoting cptkrell (Reply 38):
Overpopulation (for a myriad of reasons) is an ever increasing problem in all areas of the planet. Simply put, if there is not some sort of population control via oommon sense (common sense is not common) , or via some sort of political mandate (heresy! heresy!) I guess we'll all just have to witness the starving tens of millions and say "well, ain't that just too bad".

The Chinese had the good sense to start working on it, by 2100 there will be 500m less Chinese than there is today, if only India and Africa would get with the program.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 41):
I try to eat only KOSHER meat whenever I can. I know the standards are very high and the animal has not been mistreated or allowed to feel fear or suffer.

Go to a freezing works and watch how animals meant for kosher consumption are killed compared to animals for the rest of us, I guarantee you'll be surprised, and not in the way which you expect.
 
AyostoLeon
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 45):
Go to a freezing works and watch how animals meant for kosher consumption are killed compared to animals for the rest of us,

Do you have a specific example? It would save a lot of trawling.  

Certainly in western countries like Norway and other EU countries killing of animals, even if compliant with kosher and halal, must adhere to EU standards. Are you suggesting that a blind eye is turned in the direction of those who adhere to the Judaic faith? If so, I hope that you have reported it to the responsible authorities. Most Jews would be appalled to learn that the welfare of the animal was disregarded because, quiet aside from the injunction to respect life, it would render the animal non-kosher.
The person with no dignity eats his dinner twice
 
Kiwirob
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:40 am

Quoting AyostoLeon (Reply 46):
Do you have a specific example? It would save a lot of trawling.
http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-kosher-slaughter-in-Australia_117.html

Quote:
Despite the Australian standard requiring stunning, there are instances where the relevant Australian state or territory meat-inspection authority can provide an exemption and approve an abattoir for ritual slaughter without prior stunning - either halal or kosher - for the domestic market. These are effectively exemptions to standard Australian slaughter practice.

Do a quick trawl through the net and you will come across many examples. Whilst animals for western consumption are killed humanely animals from halal and kosher slaughter in NZ are not, the govt moved to change the law in 2010 requiring prior stunning of all beasts but this was quietly dropped when the meat industry kicked up a fuss, NZ exports a lot of lamb to the middle east, baning halal slaughter would jeopardise this industry. A good friend of mine is an RSPCA inspector he's been inside slaughter houses, basically when ritual slaughter of beasts is being undertaken everyone turns a blind eye to the animals suffering.

When you get to meat being slaughtered for kosher consumption the animal is not allowed to be stunned, kosher slaughter is exempt from EU rules concerning the humaine slaughter of beasts. This is discraceful and I find it disturbing that minority groups are allowed to gain exemptions to laws which safeguard the welfare of our foodstock.

Quote:
1
Legislation
British legislation, now implementing EC legislation, requires the pre-stunning of animals before slaughter in normal circumstances, so that in the absence of mis-stuns death should be painless. Religious slaughter, on the other hand, is a controversial issue, because the animals are not stunned. The requirement in British legislation for the pre-stunning of animals in slaughterhouses has always provided exemptions for the Jewish and Muslim methods of slaughter. The Jewish method of slaughter is called Shechita. Food fulfilling the requirements of Jewish law is called Kosher. The Muslim method is called Halal. The exemption dates back to the Slaughter of Animals (Scotland) Act 1928 and the Slaughter of Animals Act 1933 (which applied to England and Wales). Schedule 12 of The Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations 1995 (SI 731) lays down provisions for slaughter by a religious method, additional to EU law.1
The exemption for religious slaughter in Schedule 12 of The Welfare of Animals (Slaughter or Killing) Regulations 1995 (SI 731) 1995 makes clear that it relates to a method of slaughter for people of that religion, not for everybody:


[Edited 2013-06-18 23:47:58]
 
Superfly
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:46 am

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I have the most beautiful dog.
Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Like I eat meat and enjoy the taste, but I sometimes feel bad because I know my dog has a soul,

How do you feel when you eat a hot dog?


Seriously are you serious?
Plants have a soul as well. Do vegetarians have issues eating plants? Or smoking plants?
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idealstandard
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RE: I Feel Bad About Eating Meat... But I Want To....

Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:33 am

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
Plants have a soul as well. Do vegetarians have issues eating plants? Or smoking plants?

  

Amen!

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